Done Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP21 - Crucibelle

[snake]

CAP21: Crucibelle ○ Generation 8 Update
​

Hello! Welcome to the Generation 8 Crucibelle update thread. In this thread, we will be updating the movepool of one of our past CAP creations to better match the changes Gamefreak made in Generation 8.

A major change that occurred between this update cycle and the last was to significantly narrow the scope of CAP updates. Abilities, statlines, and typings will not be changed during the course of this update. Only changes to a CAP's movepool will be allowed. Additionally, full movepool changes are also off the table, as the Update Leaders will decide where to distribute moves for their respective Pokemon based off logic and the ICC.

Furthermore, we have defined what type of changes are allowed to movepools, as well as the type of moves up for discussion. Movepool changes will be broken down in two categories: removals and additions. Moves that are subject to removal are those that have been rendered unusable in Sword and Shield, such as Pursuit, and past generation tutors and Technical Machiness that are not available as a Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.

We have also defined the following considerations for use in evaluating move removals and additions. The foremost consideration is that any change proposed fits both the flavor of the CAP in question and the flavor of Generation 8 as a whole. This means that all changes should follow trends and precedents seen in Generation 8. Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle. We also wish to avoid the creation of an unbalanced CAP Pokemon. Therefore, the second consideration for move changes is the competitive impact of said changes. Moves that are clearly too powerful will be banned from discussion by the Update Leader.

This update cycle also has a set schedule. For four weeks, each of the seven Update Leaders will post a discussion thread for a single CAP Pokemon. This thread will be used for the discussion of changes to a CAPs movepool as explained in this post. Each thread will have six days reserved for discussion on potential changes to a CAP's movepool. On the seventh day, the Update Leader will collect the ICC and determine what will be changed. Controversial changes will be subject to a poll.

For the discussion of Crucibelle, please refer to its Gen 6 movepool submission and its move updates in Gen 7 Updates (although Rock Smash had to be moved to Transferable Moves) for the CAP's full movepool. Some other resources the CAP mods have compiled to make discussion easier is this list of cut moves that are distributed to our CAP pokemon, and this list of past TMs that were not included as Gen 8 TMs and TRs. Note that for the TM list, moves with * are those that have been cut entirely.

This thread will be locked until snake_rattler makes their leading post.

 

[snake]

Hey all, my first CAP to update will be Crucibelle! Lets look at its movepool...

Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move isn't a TM or TR in SWSH, so if we decide that it should be in Crucibelle's Generation 8 movepool, it must be moved in Level Up or Egg Moves (and thus requires discussion)
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves

Level Up

- Astonish
- Endure
- Protect
- Withdraw
5 Rock Throw
7 Toxic
10 Fake Tears
14 Confusion
16 Confuse Ray
19 Toxic Spikes
23 Smack Down
25 Reflect
28 Sludge
32 Acid Armor
36 Rock Slide
40 Psybeam
44 Hex
48 Torment
52 Rock Blast
56 Gunk Shot
60 Explosion

Egg (Amorphous / Mineral)

Coil (Elektross)
Defense Curl (Golurk)
Rollout (Golurk)
Wood Hammer (Sudowoodo / Trevenant)

TM/HM

TM06 Toxic
TM09 Venoshock
TM10 Hidden Power
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM23 Smack Down
TM27 Return
TM29 Psychic
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM34 Sludge Wave
TM36 Sludge Bomb
TM37 Sandstorm
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM41 Torment
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM63 Embargo
TM64 Explosion
TM66 Payback
TM68 Giga Impact
TM69 Rock Polish
TM71 Stone Edge
TM80 Rock Slide
TM83 Infestation
TM84 Poison Jab
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM94 Secret Power

Tutor

Snore
Iron Head
Zen Headbutt
Gunk Shot
Block
Skill Swap
Helping Hand
Trick
Snatch
Magic Room
Wonder Room
Stealth Rock
Gravity

Transfer Only (up to Gen 7)

Rock Smash

Hidden Power, Return, Frustration, Embargo, Secret Power and Snatch are unavailable in Sword and Shield, so those will be removed automatically.

Topics to discuss:

1) We need to discuss where Coil will go in Crucibelle's movepool, as this was a competitively mandated move by process that's still in SWSH. This is because Elektross is not available in SWSH, and there are no alternatives in the Amorphous or Mineral Egg Groups. Thus, Coil must be moved somewhere in its level up movepool, as it is also not a TM or TR. While we shouldn't overhaul the movepool, I will ask: where is the best place in Crucibelle's level up movepool for Coil?

2) Double Team, Infestation, Swagger, Rock Smash, Block, and Gravity are less competitive moves that aren't TMs or TRs this generation. Should Crucibelle just not have access to them for SWSH? Or should we give them a place in Crucibelle's new movepool? If so, where?

(Note that Smack Down, Torment, and Explosion, while not TMs or TRs, are present in Crucibelle's level up movepool, so these are not issues.)

3) Are there any new TMs, TRs, or new moves introduced in SWSH that should be added to Crucibelle's movepool? Keep in mind that these should be flavor-oriented additions.

 

[Voltage]

I'll chip in here since these discussion points are pretty straightforward.

Given that Eelektross isn't in SS, it makes sense to me to either put Coil in a Level 0 space like Withdraw and Protect, or require it to be transfer only. I'm personally in favor of the former since that way you can still maintain the flavor of the move being accessible at low levels, while also stil giving it an easy accessibility in distribution. I don't really have much else to say about this topic as personally I don't think there's much else that needs to be done here.

I think we should still maintain the aforementioned moves in Crucibelle's moveset, regardless of their competitiveness. CAP is partially a flavor concept and it seems wrong to remove moves that haven't been cut. That said, I'm not quite sure where they would go aside from either being level-up moves or waiting to see if these moves are eventually included in a Move tutor in the second game in Gen 8. I'm personally in favor of maybe deciding on a couple of those moves, ideally ones that have good flavor-ness, to add to Crucibelle's movepool, while perhaps removing others. That said, I don't really know which ones I'd absolutely want in its movepool aside from Rock Smash.

Other flavor-based TRs and TMs I'd probably want to allow for Cruci to learn would be ones that strictly stick to flavor. Obviously, that's the point here, but I'm leaning a little more conservatively here in terms of what it would get. Obviously, it should be able to learn any TRs and TMs for moves already in its movepool (Rock Blast, Gunk Shot, etc.), but I think it would be overboard to give it anything other than its STABs and maybe one or two other widely distributed moves (Body Press for example). It should definitely get Power Gem (TR63), and Venom Drench (TR91). As for non-STAB options, I'd only suggest the aforementioned Body Press (TR99) and maaaaybe one of Brutal Swing (TR97) or Darkest Lariat (TR93). The precedent for those two moves is somewhat present given that the former is given to Drapion (another posion type), and stuff like Hatterene and Goodra (amorphous blob-like Pokemon), and the latter is given to Dusknoir, Rillaboom, and Bewear, some obviously non-Dark typed mons. The description of Brutal Swing is basically: "The user swings its body around violently to inflict damage on everything in its vicinity." which could easily be applied to Cruci's actions in actual fight, while Darkest Lariat is more like "The user swings both arms and hits the target. The target's stat changes don't affect this attack's damage. ". It's not totally unreasonable to, from a flavor perspective, expect Crucibelle to attack somewhat like how these two moves describe.I'd personally prefer Breaking Swipe since that move is much more available to other Pokemon than Darkest Lariat, and wouldn't be surprised if Darkest Lariat was shot down pretty quickly.

 

[Deck Knight]

Crucibelle is one of the most affected Pokemon by the Gen 8 shift, seeing as it doesn't have its Mega Evolution any more. Crucibelle's concept was also based around creating a Pokemon with an undervalued typing. It was made with Mega Evolution in mind, so the Base form was understandably more restrained.

On that basis, keeping Coil should be a high priority. I would also like to propose bringing back Head Smash. The Mega-Cruci nerf from Generation 7 was needed for that metagame, but Gen 8 is an entirely new metagame. While it also lost Low Kick, I feel like as a non-STAB moves it isn't central to Crucibelle's conceptual identity. As far as placement, you could put Coil over Fake Tears (now a TM), and Head Smash back a L0 move as it was in the original Gen 6 submission. Infestation (Dragapult) and Gravity (Dusclops, Stonjourner) can be added back into Egg Moves. The rest can be scrapped as they got heavily reduced distribution and aren't particularly unique.

Otherwise, for flavor additions:

Assurance - very commonly distributed to Poison-types, lots of overlap with Payback which Crucibelle already gets.
Body Press - its distribution has a lot of "golem/urn/containter" style Pokemon like Claydol, Dhelmise, Golurk, and Runerigus so it actually fits nicely, and running off Defense means it isn't suitable for coverage on its own.
Mega Kick -an omage to Mega Cruci jumping out of the pot.
Pin Missile - Cruci has spikes on its head and already learns Bug moves
Power Gem - Special STAB
Psycho Cut - Weaker, more accurate Zen Headbutt
Self-Destruct - Weaker Explosion
Venom Drench - Common Poison distributed move.

 

[MrPanda]

1. I think the best option that we have is to add Coil to the list of remember moves, like Astonish and Endure. This would save us a lot of work to decide where fit it in the leveling up Crucibelle.

2. I believe the only worthy ones to address are Infestation, Rock Smash and Block. But the two former haven't enough flavor imo. In a less extent Infestation only have two Pokémon non-Bug on your learnset, Toxapex and Dragapult, although both share traits with Belle (Pex is a Poison-type and Dragapult belongs to the Amorphous egg group). In case of Rock Smash, I think Crucibelle is just too much fluid to use the move, thus as said in the description of the move "The user attacks with a punch. This may also lower the target's Defense stat". If this isn't enough, it's worth highlighting that none Amorphous egg group Pokémon learns Rock Smash in Gen 8. Lastly, Block has a wide distribution between Mineral egg group Pokémon, what give us a great precedent to consider it. Thereby I believe that the egg move list is the right place to place Block.

3. I think Self-destruct and Cross Poison would be good additions by the side of the TMs and Iron Defense, Venom Drench, Body Press and Power Gem (thx Voltage for mentioning this) to represent the TRs. As for the new moves, the aforementioned Body Press is the best option imo.

 

[Deck Knight]

As as Body Press specifically, it isn't that widely distributed. That said, it does have a large number of Pokemon that fit Crucibelle's mold of a golem/urn/container like Claydol, Dhelmise, Golurk, and Runerigus so it actually does make flavor sense. Not as sold on Iron Defense because it's a less flavorful close of Acid Armor, but otherwise it works. I don't think it will be that competitive, it really needs a Coil or Acid Armor boost to do even middling damage, and that's a two-slot investment for the coverage on a Pokemon whose best set was a hit-and-run rocker.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I just want to echo what Deck has said regarding Crucibelle and Head Smash. Restoring Head Smash doesn't strike me as problematic since it was removed purely for the now defunct Mega. While this isn't specifically what the scope of the updates entails, I think it is an important thing to consider.

I definitely support adding Coil to the level up pool, it's a pretty common level up move.

 

[Empress]

I do remember on Discord that multiple people were opposed to competitive updates. Given why we cut Head Smash from Crucibelle's movepool in the first place, I would support it being reinstated in a vacuum, but I would like to hear from the Discord people as to what their thoughts would be.

Tagging: Jordy cbrevan

 

[Jordy]

Okay I'm not sure why I was tagged because I'm not really involved, but I guess I was involved with Crucibelle's nerfing process so perhaps this is relevant. The sole reason Head Smash was removed last generation was because of Mega Crucibelle, with it no longer around, that shouldn't be an issue.

Giving Crucibelle access to Head Smash would affect its matchup against specially defensive Corviknight, which is the most common set right now.

• 252 Atk Crucibelle Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 204-240 (51 - 60%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Crucibelle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 135-160 (33.7 - 40%) -- 29% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I don't really think this is important because Corviknight could simply run investment in Defense to avoid being 2HKOed. The reason Corviknight runs Special Defense investment is purely because there's no relevant calcs involving Defense right now anyways.

I think Head Smash could be problematic alongside Coil, as Crucibelle then gets the opportunity to overwhelm Corviknight very easily, while also turning a bunch of 2HKOes into OHKOes, but I don't really feel like looking into that much.

 

[Deck Knight]

One other note is that Head Smash on regular Cruci is not a cost-free move. Mega-Cruci had consequence-free Head Smash. Regular Cruci has to pay the 50% recoil, and while it can Regen heal out, that requires it to pivot back in at some point on its middling defenses (106/65/85). Rock/Poison isn't horrible defensively (Ground weakness aside) but it's not switching into most balance or defensive cores. It's extremely weak to Scald (Toxapex), proc's Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs, needs Coil or Band to break past Toxapex/Cyclohm (at extreme cost to recoil damage in Clohm's case) and is slower than Fidgit.

For obvious reasons Head Smash is competitively relevant, but it was part of Crucibelle's core "kit" at its creation and I don't feel the nerf should carry through. If Head Smash is removed again it ought to be via a Gen 8 nerfing process and not as a residual effect of Gen 7's. My opinion only of course.

 

[Zetalz]

Chiming in to support the reinstatement of Head Smash on Cruci here. I understand that some users have the mentality of not wanting to "walk back" on a nerfing decision and stand by the principle, but I don't see it this way. I don't see how we could be considered backpedaling if we were to remove changes that were done entirely for a mon that no longer exists. We'd essentially be leaving a CAP heavily nerfed with no justifiable reason anymore. I don't remember where it was in it's original moveset but adding it to levelless moves shouldn't be too messy and if the move becomes a problem again we can talk about removing it later.

I was going to also advocate for the reinstatement of Low Kick to fully undo the nerfs but as I thought about it the less I really care about it. It's a pretty impactful move competitively and has rather weak flavor for Cruci, especially now that it's stuck inside it's pot for the rest of time now.

 

[Mova]

I would also like to support bringing Head Smash back on Crucibelle. Even though it was removed from its movepool during Gen 7, that was because of its Mega Evolution which had access to Magic Guard. Megas were removed in Gen 8, so Crucibelle no longer has that benefit. Also, Crucibelle's concept (not the Mega framework) focused on utilizing positive aspects of a typing, with Head Smash being a powerful Rock-type attack with a serious drawback of recoil, which Crucibelle has to deal with before switching out.

I agree with Zeta regarding Low Kick as well. Crucibelle's stuck in the pot because it cannot go Mega anymore, so it doesn't make nearly as much sense as it used to.

 

[snake]

Hi all! Don't forget that there's less than 48 hours to post! At present, here's what we've got. Apologies for the late post.

1) There's support for reinstating Head Smash on Crucibelle from its nerfing process. However, after discussing it with the rest of the UL team, making an exception for Head Smash goes against many of our goals for Generation 8 Updates. If I may quote the OP...

Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records.

Head Smash is not a move introduced in Sword and Shield, nor is it a new TM or TR.

Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle.

Head Smash raises Crucibelle's power ceiling dramatically (even at a steep cost of recoil). Because adding Head Smash doesn't follow Generation 8 move addition trends, it would be considered an intentional buff.

Furthermore, even if the nerfs were based on Mega Crucibelle, Mega Crucibelle is part of Crucibelle. Crucibelle was nerfed as a whole, not just Mega Crucibelle. There's no reason to buff Crucibelle now under the aforementioned rules of Generation 8 updates. Thus, I'm not allowing Head Smash back onto Crucibelle (or Low Kick).

2) Let's look at the TM/TRs List that has been compiled.

TM/TR List

TM07 Pin Missile
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM17 Light Screen
TM18 Reflect
TM19 Safeguard
TM20 Self-Destruct
TM21 Rest
TM22 Rock Slide
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM31 Attract
TM32 Sandstorm
TM39 Facade
TM41 Helping Hand
TM47 Fake Tears
TM48 Rock Tomb
TM54 Rock Blast
TM56 U-turn
TM57 Payback
TM58 Assurance
TM69 Psycho Cut
TM71 Wonder Room
TM72 Magic Room
TM73 Cross Poison
TM74 Venoshock
TM76 Round
TM77 Hex
TM87 Draining Kiss

TR11 Psychic
TR14 Metronome
TR20 Substitute
TR22 Sludge Bomb
TR26 Endure
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR33 Shadow Ball
TR38 Trick
TR40 Skill Swap
TR46 Iron Defense
TR54 Toxic Spikes
TR57 Poison Jab
TR63 Power Gem
TR69 Zen Headbutt
TR73 Gunk Shot
TR74 Iron Head
TR75 Stone Edge
TR76 Stealth Rock
TR78 Sludge Wave
TR91 Venom Drench

I included a few I thought might be good flavor options: Fake Tears, Draining Kiss, Metronome. Otherwise, these should appear in Crucibelle's old movepool or have been suggested in this thread.

Some moves I didn't include on the list:

Mega Kick doesn't make sense to me because Mega Crucibelle isn't in the game.
Brutal Swing was polled last updates cycle and was voted against in Crucibelle's TM List.
Darkest Lariat is a significant increase in power and needs some more justification to show it's not a buff.
Breaking Swipe's description mentions a tail. Crucibelle doesn't have one.
Body Press isn't widely distributed, so I want to make sure there's good support for this one before I add it. It shouldn't have many competitive implications due to Crucibelle's low Defense stat though.

Any of the new moves on these lists (including the ones I added of course) are still on the table. The list is there just to visualize what's been discussed.

3) I've also erroneously forgot to highlight Rock Polish as blue and have fixed that in the second post. We can either give it Rock Polish in the level up pool, remove it entirely, or potentially replace it with TR12 Agility instead.

4) Posts indicated that Coil should be placed as a Level 0 move for Crucibelle, so this change will be enforced unless significant dissent arises.

5) Posts also indicated that Block should be added to Crucibelle's Egg Moves. Sudowoodo and Stonjourner are viable passers for this move. There was some discussion on Gravity and Infestation, but reception was more mixed.

So, here is a summary of the discussion points we need to address before we close this thread:

1) Crucibelle's TM/TR List - new flavorful moves that should be on it or not on it
2) Discussion on my error for Rock Polish
3) Consensus on Gravity / Infestation
4) Anything from the second post of this thread

 

[Deck Knight]

Furthermore, even if the nerfs were based on Mega Crucibelle, Mega Crucibelle is part of Crucibelle. Crucibelle was nerfed as a whole, not just Mega Crucibelle. There's no reason to buff Crucibelle now under the aforementioned rules of Generation 8 updates. Thus, I'm not allowing Head Smash back onto Crucibelle (or Low Kick).

[...]
Mega Kick doesn't make sense to me because Mega Crucibelle isn't in the game.

Which one is it, exactly? Either Mega Cruci is part of Cruci or it isn't, but you can't flip back and forth when asking people to submit suggestions.

The power ceiling argument is flawed to me. Head Smash was a move approved by Crucibelle's original process. It was a mandatory move in its originating generation, only removed via a balance change made late in Generation 7. In short, Crucibelle's "power ceiling" is artificially lowered and we are justifying that as the most recent generation's decision, and notably one made late within it. This policy has the effect of *maintaining a nerf* not *adding a buff.* I suppose I could argue the same for Low Kick, but Low Kick doesn't have the typing centrality to Crucibelle's concept that Head Smash does.

I can understand not wishing to set a precedent, but as with Necturna's core mechanic being blown up, Crucibelle is inherently going to be a unique case because of everything surrounding it. Crucibelle was built considering Head Smash in mind in the Gen 6 meta in which it was created. It is not a strange unaccounted-for power ceiling anomaly which our metagame needs careful protection against. Of the many calculations made in its Moveset Discussion thread, the Pokemon removed that check Head Smash well are (Mega) Metagross, Klefki and Garchomp. Equilibra is the only newly added CAP since it's process with a good defensive matchup against it.

Finally I would note every Generation does add more distribution even to non TM/TR moves, a notable example this generation being several Pokemon learning Golisopod's signature move First Impression via either level-up or breeding (Sirfetch'd/Falinks by Level-Up, Axew/Durant/Trapinch by Egg). I can understand having an objective standard and maintaining it. In this case though I would implore you to discuss with the ULs the idea of considering Crucibelle's "power ceiling" at the level of its originating generation, and not the level incidental to a nerf to its Mega Evolution late in Generation 7. This is not adding Head Smash as a novel form of power creep because we think Stone Edge is too weak. This is retaining the original power level of base Crucibelle as selected via its originating CAP process.

 

[snake]

Which one is it, exactly? Either Mega Cruci is part of Cruci or it isn't, but you can't flip back and forth when asking people to submit suggestions.

I don't think I'm flipping back and forth here at all. Crucibelle was nerfed in Generation 7. Crucibelle lost Head Smash and Low Kick in Generation 7, and Crucibellite was changed to grant only 4 points Speed and 6 additional points of Special Attack.

The power ceiling argument is flawed to me. Head Smash was a move approved by Crucibelle's original process. It was a mandatory move in its originating generation, only removed via a balance change made late in Generation 7. In short, Crucibelle's "power ceiling" is artificially lowered and we are justifying that as the most recent generation's decision, and notably one made late within it. This policy has the effect of *maintaining a nerf* not *adding a buff.* I suppose I could argue the same for Low Kick, but Low Kick doesn't have the typing centrality to Crucibelle's concept that Head Smash does.

Head Smash was removed from Crucibelle's movepool in Generation 7, so adding Head Smash would be adding a move to Crucibelle's movepool in Generation 8.

Finally I would note every Generation does add more distribution even to non TM/TR moves, a notable example this generation being several Pokemon learning Golisopod's signature move First Impression via either level-up or breeding (Sirfetch'd/Falinks by Level-Up, Axew/Durant/Trapinch by Egg).

You are correct about other moves. But that's not how our update process works though. We defined how Generation 8's move additions will work in the PRC thread and in the OP:

Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.

I can understand having an objective standard and maintaining it. In this case though I would implore you to discuss with the ULs the idea of considering Crucibelle's "power ceiling" at the level of its originating generation, and not the level incidental to a nerf to its Mega Evolution late in Generation 7.

Trust me, I didn't make my post based solely on my judgement. It was made after a discussion with the ULs, and I'm not acting against them.

Furthermore, the point of Updates isn't to "consider" power ceilings from gen to gen. It's to give older CAPs an opportunity to have access to the new generation's moves and access to new TM/TRs. We're trying to maintain a rigorous objective standard of "Choose new moves and TM/TRs introduced in the new Generation that a) follow the Generation's flavorful standards and THEN b) don't raise the power ceiling" because the Generation 7 Updates' intentional buffs were inconsistent and detrimental to our roster of CAPs. Here, defining power ceiling is to ensure that we don't buff CAPs unnecessarily with those new moves.

 

[Menshay]

Aside from competitive concerns I do not think Darkest Lariat fits at all, considering it is only available to physically imposing Pokémon (and the usual Mew).

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Hi all! Don't forget that there's less than 48 hours to post! At present, here's what we've got. Apologies for the late post.

1) There's support for reinstating Head Smash on Crucibelle from its nerfing process. However, after discussing it with the rest of the UL team, making an exception for Head Smash goes against many of our goals for Generation 8 Updates. If I may quote the OP...



Head Smash is not a move introduced in Sword and Shield, nor is it a new TM or TR.



Head Smash raises Crucibelle's power ceiling dramatically (even at a steep cost of recoil). Because adding Head Smash doesn't follow Generation 8 move addition trends, it would be considered an intentional buff.

Furthermore, even if the nerfs were based on Mega Crucibelle, Mega Crucibelle is part of Crucibelle. Crucibelle was nerfed as a whole, not just Mega Crucibelle. There's no reason to buff Crucibelle now under the aforementioned rules of Generation 8 updates. Thus, I'm not allowing Head Smash back onto Crucibelle (or Low Kick).

2) Let's look at the TM/TRs List that has been compiled.

TM/TR List

TM07 Pin Missile
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM17 Light Screen
TM18 Reflect
TM19 Safeguard
TM20 Self-Destruct
TM21 Rest
TM22 Rock Slide
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM31 Attract
TM32 Sandstorm
TM39 Facade
TM41 Helping Hand
TM47 Fake Tears
TM48 Rock Tomb
TM54 Rock Blast
TM56 U-turn
TM57 Payback
TM58 Assurance
TM69 Psycho Cut
TM71 Wonder Room
TM72 Magic Room
TM73 Cross Poison
TM74 Venoshock
TM76 Round
TM77 Hex
TM87 Draining Kiss

TR11 Psychic
TR14 Metronome
TR20 Substitute
TR22 Sludge Bomb
TR26 Endure
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR33 Shadow Ball
TR38 Trick
TR40 Skill Swap
TR46 Iron Defense
TR54 Toxic Spikes
TR57 Poison Jab
TR63 Power Gem
TR69 Zen Headbutt
TR73 Gunk Shot
TR74 Iron Head
TR75 Stone Edge
TR76 Stealth Rock
TR78 Sludge Wave
TR91 Venom Drench

I included a few I thought might be good flavor options: Fake Tears, Draining Kiss, Metronome. Otherwise, these should appear in Crucibelle's old movepool or have been suggested in this thread.

Some moves I didn't include on the list:

Mega Kick doesn't make sense to me because Mega Crucibelle isn't in the game.
Brutal Swing was polled last updates cycle and was voted against in Crucibelle's TM List.
Darkest Lariat is a significant increase in power and needs some more justification to show it's not a buff.
Breaking Swipe's description mentions a tail. Crucibelle doesn't have one.
Body Press isn't widely distributed, so I want to make sure there's good support for this one before I add it. It shouldn't have many competitive implications due to Crucibelle's low Defense stat though.

Any of the new moves on these lists (including the ones I added of course) are still on the table. The list is there just to visualize what's been discussed.

3) I've also erroneously forgot to highlight Rock Polish as blue and have fixed that in the second post. We can either give it Rock Polish in the level up pool, remove it entirely, or potentially replace it with TR12 Agility instead.

4) Posts indicated that Coil should be placed as a Level 0 move for Crucibelle, so this change will be enforced unless significant dissent arises.

5) Posts also indicated that Block should be added to Crucibelle's Egg Moves. Sudowoodo and Stonjourner are viable passers for this move. There was some discussion on Gravity and Infestation, but reception was more mixed.

So, here is a summary of the discussion points we need to address before we close this thread:

1) Crucibelle's TM/TR List - new flavorful moves that should be on it or not on it
2) Discussion on my error for Rock Polish
3) Consensus on Gravity / Infestation
4) Anything from the second post of this thread

You're missing Grass Knot. It's TR77

 

[snake]

Based on ICC and logic, here are the final changes to Crucibelle's movepool! New or moved moves are bolded.

Level Up

- Coil
- Astonish
- Endure
- Protect
- Withdraw
5 Rock Throw
7 Toxic
10 Fake Tears
14 Confusion
16 Confuse Ray
19 Toxic Spikes
23 Smack Down
25 Reflect
28 Sludge
32 Acid Armor
36 Rock Slide
40 Psybeam
44 Hex
48 Torment
52 Rock Blast
56 Gunk Shot
60 Explosion

Egg (Amorphous / Mineral)

Block (Sudowoodo / Bronzong / Stonjourner / Aegislash)
Defense Curl (Golurk)
Rollout (Golurk)
Wood Hammer (Sudowoodo / Trevenant)

TM/TR List

TM07 Pin Missile
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM17 Light Screen
TM18 Reflect
TM19 Safeguard
TM20 Self-Destruct
TM21 Rest
TM22 Rock Slide
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM31 Attract
TM32 Sandstorm
TM39 Facade
TM41 Helping Hand
TM47 Fake Tears
TM48 Rock Tomb
TM54 Rock Blast
TM56 U-turn
TM57 Payback
TM58 Assurance
TM71 Wonder Room
TM72 Magic Room
TM73 Cross Poison
TM74 Venoshock
TM76 Round
TM77 Hex
TM87 Draining Kiss

TR11 Psychic
TR14 Metronome
TR20 Substitute
TR22 Sludge Bomb
TR26 Endure
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR33 Shadow Ball
TR38 Trick
TR40 Skill Swap
TR46 Iron Defense
TR54 Toxic Spikes
TR57 Poison Jab
TR63 Power Gem
TR69 Zen Headbutt
TR73 Gunk Shot
TR74 Iron Head
TR75 Stone Edge
TR76 Stealth Rock
TR77 Grass Knot
TR78 Sludge Wave
TR91 Venom Drench

Regarding a few important moves and moves mentioned in my last post...

Coil was added to Level 1 Moves.

TR77 Grass Knot was rightfully added back to the TR List.

Block was added to Egg Moves.

Infestation has terrible distribution this generation. It's restricted to just Bug-types, the Dragapult line, and the Toxapex line. Given that Crucibelle isn't a Bug-type or a "pest" I think the Generation 8 trend holds that Crucibelle shouldn't get Infestation.

For Gravity, no Pokemon that got Gravity by tutor in Generation 7 had its access restored in Generation 8. Therefore, Crucibelle will not have access to it either due to Generation 8 trends. Block, however, is different, as Honedge did get Block back as an Egg Move.

For Rock Polish, every Rock-type that had access to Rock Polish ONLY by TM in Generation 7 (Tyranitar, Shuckle, Gigalith) doesn't have access to it in Generation 8. Therefore, Rock Polish will not make it either.

Also, Psycho Cut was on the TM List in my previous post, but I have removed it due to Generation 8 trends and logical reasoning. While it’s inferior to Zen Headbutt, Crucibelle doesn’t learn any moves that involve slicing movements and doesn’t have any blades on it. Any non-Psychic-types that learn Psycho Cut have obvious blades or at least on them like Bisharp, Aegislash, Liepard, and Decidueye. Hopefully this isn’t missed as an addition to Crucibelle, but the flavor doesn’t line up, and if you want a Psychic-type coverage move, Zen Headbutt is there.

Nothing was terribly controversial so there won’t be any polls! See you next thread!

 

[dhelmise]

1 - Coil
1 - Astonish
1 - Endure
1 - Protect
1 - Withdraw
5 - Rock Throw
7 - Toxic
10 - Fake Tears
14 - Confusion
16 - Confuse Ray
19 - Toxic Spikes
23 - Smack Down
25 - Reflect
28 - Sludge
32 - Acid Armor
36 - Rock Slide
40 - Psybeam
44 - Hex
48 - Torment
52 - Rock Blast
56 - Gunk Shot
60 - Explosion
Egg - Block
Egg - Defense Curl
Egg - Rollout
Egg - Wood Hammer
TM/TR - Pin Missile
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Light Screen
TM/TR - Reflect
TM/TR - Safeguard
TM/TR - Self-Destruct
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Rock Slide
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Sandstorm
TM/TR - Facade
TM/TR - Helping Hand
TM/TR - Fake Tears
TM/TR - Rock Tomb
TM/TR - Rock Blast
TM/TR - U-turn
TM/TR - Payback
TM/TR - Assurance
TM/TR - Wonder Room
TM/TR - Magic Room
TM/TR - Cross Poison
TM/TR - Venoshock
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Hex
TM/TR - Draining Kiss
TM/TR - Psychic
TM/TR - Metronome
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Sludge Bomb
TM/TR - Endure
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Shadow Ball
TM/TR - Trick
TM/TR - Skill Swap
TM/TR - Iron Defense
TM/TR - Toxic Spikes
TM/TR - Poison Jab
TM/TR - Power Gem
TM/TR - Zen Headbutt
TM/TR - Gunk Shot
TM/TR - Iron Head
TM/TR - Stone Edge
TM/TR - Stealth Rock
TM/TR - Grass Knot
TM/TR - Sludge Wave
TM/TR - Venom Drench