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Hello! Welcome to the Generation 8 Stratagem update thread. In this thread, we will be updating the movepool of one of our past CAP creations to better match the changes Gamefreak made in Generation 8.
A major change that occurred between this update cycle and the last was to significantly narrow the scope of CAP updates. Abilities, statlines, and typings will not be changed during the course of this update. Only changes to a CAP's movepool will be allowed. Additionally, full movepool changes are also off the table, as the Update Leaders will decide where to distribute moves for their respective Pokemon based off logic and the ICC.
Furthermore, we have defined what type of changes are allowed to movepools, as well as the type of moves up for discussion. Movepool changes will be broken down in two categories: removals and additions. Moves that are subject to removal are those that have been rendered unusable in Sword and Shield, such as Pursuit, and past generation tutors and Technical Machiness that are not available as a Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.
We have also defined the following considerations for use in evaluating move removals and additions. The foremost consideration is that any change proposed fits both the flavor of the CAP in question and the flavor of Generation 8 as a whole. This means that all changes should follow trends and precedents seen in Generation 8. Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle. We also wish to avoid the creation of an unbalanced CAP Pokemon. Therefore, the second consideration for move changes is the competitive impact of said changes. Moves that are clearly too powerful will be banned from discussion by the Update Leader.
This update cycle also has a set schedule. For four weeks, each of the seven Update Leaders will post a discussion thread for a single CAP Pokemon. This thread will be used for the discussion of changes to a CAPs movepool as explained in this post. Each thread will have six days reserved for discussion on potential changes to a CAP's movepool. On the seventh day, the Update Leader will collect the ICC and determine what will be changed. Controversial changes will be subject to a poll.
For the discussion of Stratagem, please refer to its winning submission from Gen 7 Updates for the CAP's full movepool. Some other resources the CAP mods have compiled to make discussion easier is this list of cut moves that are distributed to our CAP pokemon, and this list of past TMs that were not included as Gen 8 TMs and TRs. Note that for the TM list, moves with * are those that have been cut entirely.
This thread will be locked until LucarioOfLegends makes their leading post.
Hey y’all, here is the last update of my initial four. Will there be more from me, we will see :^). But we are going out with a bang with Stratagem!
Let’s jump into the movepool!
Red means the move is not in SWSH Blue means the move would only be available as a pre-Gen 8 transfer move through Pokemon Home Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves
0 Quick Guard
0 Lazer Focus
0 Weather Ball
0 Tackle
0 Defense Curl
Evo Move: Paleo Wave
4 Rollout
8 Mud-Slap
13 Rock Blast
17 Disable
21 Accelerock
26 Accupressure
30 Ancient Power
34 Mud Shot
39 Power Gem
43 Double Edge
47 Earth Power
52 Metal Sound
56 Speed Swap
60 Vacuum Wave
65 Lock On
69 Head Smash
TM04 Calm Mind TM06 Toxic TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance TM21 Frustration TM23 Smack Down
TM26 Earthquake
TM30 Shadow Ball TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM37 Sandstorm
TM38 Fire Blast
TM39 Rock Tomb TM40 Aerial Ace
TM42 Façade
TM44 Rest
TM48 Round
TM53 Energy Ball
TM54 False Swipe TM63 Embargo TM64 Explosion
TM67 Smart Strike
TM68 Giga Impact TM69 Rock Polish
TM71 Stone Edge
TM78 Bulldoze
TM80 Rock Slide TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM90 Substitute
TM99 Dazzling Gleam TM100 Confide
Earth Power
Giga Drain
Heat Wave
Snore
Stealth Rock
Trick
Zen Headbutt
Cut
Endure Flash Headbutt
Incinerate Natural Gift
Ominous Wind Rock Smash Secret Power
Swift
So with this movepool in mind, let's tackle some questions. Keep in mind how blue moves have changed in your suggestions.
1. Unlike with Kitsunoh, I am going to address Paleo Wave straight up. It is a move that is now near-identical to Power Gem in all ways but its secondary effect, and CAP PRC has shown desire to phaze out a custom move when there is a sufficient cartridge counterpart. Should we replace Paleo Wave with Power Gem, and if we do, how should we adjust its movepool to accomodate the change (Power Gem is already present in the level-up so it would require a tad bit of movepool shifting).
2. Are there any blue moves we would like to move to its natural level-up movepool or should they all remain transfer only?
3. Are there any move additions that we would like to give Stratagem? Please make sure to give adequate flavor justification in suggestions.
As always, please consider how any additions would factor into Stratagem's current power level competitively, and while I am softer on possible buffs than other ULs, I will not accept anything that drastically shifts stuff into Stratagem's favor or breaks the mon.
But we are running behind, so we gotta blast through this. This thread will close in exactly 5 days. Go nuts!
1. Unlike with Kitsunoh, I am going to address Paleo Wave straight up. It is a move that is now near-identical to Power Gem in all ways but its secondary effect, and CAP PRC has shown desire to phaze out a custom move when there is a sufficient cartridge counterpart. Should we replace Paleo Wave with Power Gem, and if we do, how should we adjust its movepool to accomodate the change (Power Gem is already present in the level-up so it would require a tad bit of movepool shifting).
Yes, remove. There are no new Rock Type moves save Tar Shot in Gen 8, which don't really fit. If we really want to break optics, Diamond Storm (StrataGEM after all) could be at least suggested, but as a more competitive move and Signature to a Legendary, I doubt it will gain much traction.
2. Are there any blue moves we would like to move to its natural level-up movepool or should they all remain transfer only?
Cut, Headbutt and Rock Smash I see little concern in moving to the level up pool. Rock Polish, Double Team, and Explosion are arguably ones that could see being popped in also.
3. Are there any move additions that we would like to give Stratagem? Please make sure to give adequate flavor justification in suggestions.
Honestly, there are few Gen 8 Supporting Moves for Rock Types. I'd like to put a case forward for Obstruct, though - a flying ball of disconnected rocks is going to be hard to connect with, thus allowing overextention of physical attackers and allowing a quick attack in return. I will say that I think that might me more to do with wanting Obstruct+Accelerock that I'm willing to come up with the justification.
Keep Rock Polish, Smack Down, Rock Smash. They all fit with the Rock-type flavor. Maybe Aerial Ace and Incinerate could return for the sake of being Technician coverage, but the flavor reasoning isn't as strong for them. Everything else should be transfer-only.
Remove Paleo Wave. Power Gem can be the Evo Move instead, and Rock Polish can take its place in the level-up movepool.
Add Cosmic Power and Stored Power. It fits with the flavor of Stratagem being a strange, alien-like rock creature similar to Solrock and Lunatone, who also get these moves.
Add Self-Destruct. It has Explosion as a Gen 7 TM, so it would only make sense for it to get the weaker version.
Add Skill Swap, Guard Swap and Power Swap. It already gets Speed Swap, so why not give it the other "swap" moves? It's not like it could make too much use of them.
Add Nasty Plot. Ok, just kidding, this might be a bit too much. Fits the flavor justification though, with it being a strategist and all.
Agree on Rock Polish, Self Destruct and Explosion, Smack Down, Double Team.
Alright, I'm going to put forward the case for keepingPaleo Wave. This might be a long one, so bear with.
Part 1: CAP and "Custom" elements.
It's no secret that CAP is against custom elements. The simple reason for this is that the processes would take far too long if every update we had to consider an arbitrary move and Ability to add to the mix. Slates could be horrendously large, with everyone arguing for their custom element over everyone else's. And then, we would reach the next stage of the process and the same battle would begin again. Quite rightly, CAP does not allow custom elements. But realistically speaking, why is it we want to get rid of old custom elements? From the PR thread that bought this up:
The idea that removing this one move will make CAP any different is a bit silly. Paleo Wave is only an obstacle for new players in the same way that Disguise, Iron Barbs, Apple Acid, Merciless, Dragon Darts, Secret Sword and Fleur Cannon are in OU. And it's a very simple move, it just does damage. Also the idea we should be as close to OU as possible has looked increasingly outdated, with the recent decision to tier seperately emphasising this. So I don't think Paleo Wave is a problem in this regard. Removing old moves just because they don't fit our current process is not the way to proceed.
Part 2: Game Freak and "Custom" elements
While CAP has moved away from custom elements, Game Freak has gone in the opposite direction. With every gen, the chances of a added Pokemon having a signature Ability/move have dramatically increased. Just to illustrate the idea, the number of Gen 8 fully evolved Pokemon that DON'T have at least one signature move/Ability is 7. 7 out of the entire Gen 8 cast. And many of the added Pokemon like Grimmsnarl, Cinderace, all 3 legendarys, Morpeko, Toxtricity, Coalossal, Weezing-G etc. have multiple "signature" elements. Gen 7 also did this to a degree with Toxapex, the Tapus having a shared signature move and the Terrain abilities etc. The CAP "custom" elements fit better in Gen 8 than they did in the past. While of course we cannot make any more custom elements, does that mean we have to do away with the ones we have? I don't think so.
Part 3: Removing Paleo Wave is a nerf
So far this has all been flavour reasoning. But now I'm going to show some competitive examples of Stratagem missing out on KOs with Power Gem, to show that removing Paleo Wave is a nerf, whether we like it or not.
252 SpA Choice Specs Stratagem Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 280-330 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Stratagem Paleo Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 297-351 (82.2 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Removing Paleo Wave reduces Stratagem's chance to OHKO Thick Fat Mamoswine after Rocks and the 20% chance to drop Atk comes up if it doesn't KO:
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 325-384 (100.9 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 217-256 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Stratagem Paleo Wave vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Snaelstrom: 346-408 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Stratagem Power Gem vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Snaelstrom: 328-385 (85.4 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
So Phys Def Snaelstrom can avoid the OHKO more often against LO Power Gem.
252 SpA Choice Specs Stratagem Paleo Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mollux: 272-324 (69.2 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Stratagem Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mollux: 258-306 (65.6 - 77.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Specs Paleo Wave is much more likely to KO a Mollux that has taken a Knock Off.
252 SpA Life Orb Stratagem Paleo Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Toxapex: 126-149 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Stratagem Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Toxapex: 118-140 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
LO Power Gem has no chance of 2HKOing PhyDef Pex.
252 SpA Choice Specs Stratagem Paleo Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Toxapex: 144-171 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Stratagem Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Toxapex: 136-162 (44.8 - 53.4%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
While Specs Paleo Wave gives a 100% 2HKO.
These are all fringe cases, yes, but it shows that there is not no difference between them. Two moves can appear similar while still being different. And this is something that is replicated in many places in Pokemon. Look up the difference between Liquidation and Waterfall. There's even less to separate them than Power Gem and Paleo Wave. Superpower and Close Combat is another example. If Superpower was a CAP move, would we want it replaced with Close Combat? Would we replace Steam Eruption with Hydro Pump? There are 4 Physical Fighting Type moves with 100 power: Jump Kick, Dynamic Punch, Cross Chop and Hammer Arm. Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave, High Horsepower and Earthquake, Heat Wave and Flamethrower, the list goes on and on. Two similar moves can exist in the same space. If you don't believe me, open a Nat Dex team, and filter Smeargle's movepool in a few different ways. You'll see dozens more examples I didn't point out. This is why I think just because Power Gem and Paleo Wave are similar, it does not make them the same thing by any stretch.
So in conclusion, Game Freak's design choices over the past 6 years give us loads of precedent for keeping Paleo Wave, and it is categorically an unneeded nerf to Stratagem to remove it. While process and optics prevent us making more custom elements, I see nothing wrong with keeping what we have.
Rock Polish, Smack Down, Explosion, Aerial Ace, Cut and Headbutt. I don't see Rock Smash (very frail and finesse-based Pokemon both flavor-wise and relative to the list of who currently gets it) or Incinerate as particularly deserving.
For Aerial Ace, not only is the flavor barrier rather low (current recipients include Ferrothorn, Dugtrio, Alolan Persian, Dracozolt...), but Stratagem's precision, maneuverability, and airborne state make it particularly fitting in my eyes. And it works with Technician so that's need.
3. Are there any move additions that we would like to give Stratagem? Please make sure to give adequate flavor justification in suggestions.
Swift is a TM now and has a good flavor case, so we can give it this Transfer move by TM.
Two possible new moves from TMs: Fling feels appropriate for one of agility and tactical prowess, and there are many swingy, dangery moving parts at hand for Brutal Swing to make sense.
Lock-On reflects how Stratagem would be the type to cover all options in engagement.
Aerial Ace + Headbutt = Drill Peck. Aerial Ace + Cut/Swift = Air Slash. These are both things that we can do. I think Drill Peck in particular would be neat with the rather optimally-shaped head it has. It being an Air Slash user reminds me of Kartana.
Weather Ball is a TM now. Its flavor case doesn't seem that strong to me, so we could take it out of level-up and relegate it to TM. Or we could not, whatever works.
As sick as Obstruct would be, I don't think the flavor and especially spunk are entirely there.
The swap moves seem mostly relegated to Psychic-types and Pokemon extra-strong in that element (n/a for skill swap), so I'd support just keeping Speed Swap.
I think the connection to Cosmic and Stored Power is a bit tenuous because Solrock and Lunatone are explicitly space-associated. Cosmic Power has a narrow learn pool and Stored Power has a wide one, so I'd support giving Stored Power. Sounds funny with Acupressure!
1. Unlike with Kitsunoh, I am going to address Paleo Wave straight up. It is a move that is now near-identical to Power Gem in all ways but its secondary effect, and CAP PRC has shown desire to phaze out a custom move when there is a sufficient cartridge counterpart. Should we replace Paleo Wave with Power Gem, and if we do, how should we adjust its movepool to accomodate the change (Power Gem is already present in the level-up so it would require a tad bit of movepool shifting).
If PRC desires to phase out customs, let's phase this out.
If we choose for "sufficient counterpart" to mean more than "literally identical", a mere 5BP and a poor secondary effect (I'd prioritize Psychic's secondary effect to this) is the perfect time to follow through on that.
If we want to remove customs, but we don't remove this one, we might as well replace "sufficient counterpart" with "identical".
This thread needs to be wrapped up, so I will be throwing it in 48 hour mode. I would like a bit more discussion on topics discussed as well, especially in regards to Paleo Wave, so get those thoughts out or forever hold your peace.
Nothing more to add really. Once again, there is less difference between Liquidation and Waterfall than Power Gem and Paleo Wave. I see no reason to undo the past just because we can't do it in the present.
Even though I was in support of the removing of some of the custom elements earlier, I think now with the release of Home and the general existence of already existing similar moves as theotherguy has pointed out, I don't think there's a particular reason to remove Paleo Wave anymore. I want to echo support for most of the other moves mentioned in terms of keeps, although I think having some of them as Home only isn't a problem, especially for the non-competitive moves such as Aerial Ace. I echo support for Cosmic Power and Stored Power for flavour reasons. While yes, they are both somewhat competitive, I doubt they will see any significant use as Stratagem doesn't have the defenses to use the boosting move, nor the space to fit Stored Power into the same set.
I do not believe that the sacred cows of "it happened in the past" and "it has a negative competitive impact" are good enough reasons for something to be kept, when the optics revolve around using the tool-set of pokemon that are available to us.
Given that we are retroactively removing moves that do not exist within Gen 8 from a movepool on all other CAPmon built within the optics, I see no reason why Paleo Wave should not be treated the same way - except with a bone thrown in the means of a "close enough" alternative. If the meta is unkind to new Stratagem, I think "tough" is the answer - I do not see balance passes for Voodoom, Plasmanta or Volkraken to give them new moves or abilities, custom or otherwise to make them viable.
I definitely agree with theotherguytm; I totally agree with not adding any more custom abilities and moves, but I don't see any reason why we should remove a previously created custom move.
Of course the extra 5 damage and the 20% chance to reduce Attack does matter a bit, but even flavour wise having a signature move is perfectly fine in the current meta.
We are running on a different timeline for these final updates. As you can tell here we are going to be finishing all CAP updates TOMORROW (Friday) from 8am to midnight CST. Below is a list of every suggestion that has been made in this thread to the movepool in the OP. If you have more to suggest, please do them via post or (preferably) Discord.
>> Please join our Discord channel by clicking here. We'll be discussing these updates LIVE all day! <<
Below are the suggestions that have been made thus far in this thread. The parentheses represent the recommended move to remove in order to make move. Brackets represent breeding partners, while a strikethrough represents something that was discussed, but is vetoed by later discussion for being too competitively relevant. A '○' symbolizes that it a bullet point that's it's a conditional change base on its header change becoming approved.
Suggested Movepool Movement:
Swift to TM40
Weather Ball to TM46
Cut to Level-Up (TBD)
Headbutt to Level-up (TBD)
Rock Smash to Level-Up (TBD)
Double-Team to Level-Up (TBD)
Explosion to ??? (TBD)
Smack Down to ??? (TBD)
Aerial Ace to ??? (TBD)
Remove Paleo Wave ○ Power Gem to Evolution Move ○ Rock Polish to Level 39 (Power Gem)
Suggested New Moves:
Obstruct
Cosmic Power
Stored Power
Self-Destruct
Skill Swap
Drill Peck
Air Slash
Power Swap
Guard Swap
I bet this movepool looks quite similar, doesn't it. Well through the discussion we went through a number of options present, and ultimately decided that none of them fit flavorfully with Stratagem or defied rules present for update discussion. At the end of the day, Stratagem remains unchanged.
CAP5: Stratagem ○ Generation 8 Update
