Pet Mod [Gen 9] Crossover Chaos

I want to make it very clear that if the current Sans submission does end up getting in it will almost certainly be gutted and reworked eventually for balance purposes, and frankly, this feels like a submission that should simply have been/be vetoed for its multiple issues. If you want to vote it in simply because it's funny, I would ask you to please reconsider your priorities. If you somehow believe this is a valuable addition to the metagame, I do not believe you.
 
Something tells me that at least one of them was going out of their way to disprove my "nobody" claim.

SpyderMarz's Big Man
Mygavolt's Neptune
leafsaber47's Kaalaa Baunaa
 
KeeganSkymin4444 said:
I want to make it very clear that if the current Sans submission does end up getting in it will almost certainly be gutted and reworked eventually for balance purposes, and frankly, this feels like a submission that should simply have been/be vetoed for its multiple issues. If you want to vote it in simply because it's funny, I would ask you to please reconsider your priorities. If you somehow believe this is a valuable addition to the metagame, I do not believe you.
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Yeah, I think I can agree on that...this is clearly someone's first attempt at this kind of thing, and seeing how they still haven't applied the changes to it...it either needs to be balanced at the next balance slate (This is the 30th slate, after all) or it has to be disqualified for being unfinished.
 
Beaf Cultist said:
Crazy how yall announce this multiple days into voting. Why was the sub not vetoed earlier if it was that bad?
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I didn't notice the illegal stats when voting started. Once brought up, the obvious choice was to veto the sub during voting rather than disqualify it after it had been voted in by users who knew it was a bad sub.

Edited for clarity.
 
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ToadBrigade said:
I didn't notice the illegal stats when voting started. Once brought up, the obvious choice was to veto the sub rather than allow users who never/rarely interact with the pet mod to meme it through votes.
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Just going to weigh in that if you don't notice that the sub is incomplete before posting it, you see that there's a clear problem there. If you're compiling the subs you should atleast look at all the subs and see if they're missing things.

This conversation shouldn't be happening in the thread anyways, and is just adding unnecessary clutter to an already pretty cluttered thread.

And this: "Once brought up, the obvious choice was to veto the sub rather than allow users who never/rarely interact with the pet mod to meme it through votes.". This does apply to me because I don't like to interact with this thread, read: AT ALL. Vetoing it specifically because users who rarely interact with the thread are voting it. Well, it's endlessly petty and against the spirit of a community created mod.

I came here to copypaste what I posted in the pet mods discord for the future and also so the people not in the discord can see it. This is a little bit frantic cause its late but I just hope that this doesn't get overlooked.

CC isn't an intrinsically flawed mod, its not. The issue has always been the lack of real leadership at any level, from the subbers or the leaders. There's kind've this constant influx of submissions that lead nowhere and the mod has no direction. And because of the flaws in leadership nobody without a tie to how cc already functions really wants to do stuff lol. And thats partially due to the extreme gatekeeping. But its also due to the extremely low entry level and you guys probably getting the worse subbers in any mod. CC is stuck. I know what it is like to lead a directionless mod, I have guided the 2 biggest pet mods out of the directionless phases. And obviously I'm not going to conflate either of them exactly with the way cc works because they're both more reliant on competitive but, the biggest thing for finding direction in pet mods to me. Is having a limitation. All of the most successful pet mods end, M4A will eventually end. HG ended, Jolte and Vape both ended. CC is endless, and you can't just now drop an arbitrary number and expect things to be fixed. Thats part of why I think rebuilding from the bottom and having a focused project is probably the easiest and best way of having it function but, given what we have with CC as of this moment I'm going to lay out a plan.
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1.: Take a deep breath. There's so much toxicity in CC, if people just chilled out and actually tried to work on the project instead of getting angry with each-other everything would get just a little bit better.
2: Concrete leadership, it doesn't need to be one person, they just have to respect the community, and try to get new people in. Ingratiate NOT Alienate . And they have to keep their eyes on the goal of the mod, whatever that becomes. Maybe even bring in somebody from outside, not me obviously lol but anybody thats passionate enough to want to lead and yknow isn't crazy.
3:Along with the community come up with a goal, something I had as an idea is actually pausing what the current CC is, and creating a basis for the competitive metagame. Not through an arbitrary tier level thing, by creating a micrometa. By building organically from what you have, a bunch of passionate people that want to add their favorite anime characters into Pokemon. And then after you finish the micrometa, and playtest it and make sure the community enjoys it, going back and having rebalances of the best characters and the ones people want most. And then contiuing to build off of that. Inside-out. This is just a suggestion though. Any goal is an improvement. It might just be that arbitrary number to stop and then just going back and rebalancing what you have. I definitely think the micrometa would work at actually improving the way CC functions while keeping what you guys like.
4:Using that goal, you build out a community. Even if its small, try to allow new people in. New users SHOULD NOT BE BULLIED IN THE THREAD. Even if they're clearly kids. The whole thing about an internet forum is that its open for everybody.
5:Strive towards that goal, and be happy when its fulfilled even if that means its the end. Maybe have a spiritual successor. I don't know.

I will also say, this is loose but its pretty solid foundation for trying to make CC better and I guarantee if you follow this CC will get better, and don't say anything about how its impossible or its been tried. It hasn't.
 
Screenshot_20240715_071913_Discord.jpg
 
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I’m going to echo Paul in saying that this conversation should be moved to the Discord, but there absolutely are things you can do about it. I know from experience how hard it can be to playtest a mod with a small/inexperienced playerbase, but you’re not doing yourself any favors with the current approach to vetoes (aka having none), among other things. Balancing a mod is hard, but it’s important to remember that said balancing should happen at every stage of the process, not just at the end. I think a willingness to change is very important for leadership to have at this stage of the mod, as without it things are likely to go downhill pretty quickly.
 
crossover chaos slate end.png

Congratulations to Swagodile, SpyderMarz and Ubertrainer2000 for winning with Meta Knight, Big Man and Starlow. SpyderMarz has earned the title, Ergheiz.

With so many Crossover Pokemon made for this mod, it is time for a more in-depth look at balance for a healthy micrometa. This Balance Slate won't be the usual BS but a more long-term balance phase. More information about what that will look like and how to participate in this Pet Mod's balancing and playtesting will be announced within the next week or so.

Thanks to the amazing contributors of Crossover Chaos for all of the submissions and the wider Pet Mod community for the recent feedback.

Stay tuned for major updates in this thread and as always, join the Discord for general discussions and updates about Crossover Chaos.

Have fun!​
 
ToadBrigade said:
View attachment 648866
Congratulations to Swagodile, SpyderMarz and Ubertrainer2000 for winning with Meta Knight, Big Man and Starlow. SpyderMarz has earned the title, Ergheiz.

With so many Crossover Pokemon made for this mod, it is time for a more in-depth look at balance for a healthy micrometa. This Balance Slate won't be the usual BS but a more long-term balance phase. More information about what that will look like and how to participate in this Pet Mod's balancing and playtesting will be announced within the next week or so.

Thanks to the amazing contributors of Crossover Chaos for all of the submissions and the wider Pet Mod community for the recent feedback.

Stay tuned for major updates in this thread and as always, join the Discord for general discussions and updates about Crossover Chaos.

Have fun!​
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A couple things I want to address regarding this:

1) Incomplete / incorrect coding
Only a small portion of winning subs are coded in as of current, so if coding is not completed this will be largely inaccurate to the meta at large. There are also a few known coding errors which will need to be fixed beforehand. Also Terastallization is still legal, despite it being voted to be banned in earlier balance slates.

2) No statement regarding a council
Without a council, this is not going to work very well either. You NEED to enlist members interested in balancing this mod to be part of a council, otherwise this will repeat the cycle of broken mons never being fixed that this mod has fallen into time and time again. It seems that there are plans to do so which have publicly surfaced, but not addressing it here is odd to me.

3) This doesn’t cover all of the issues
While a larger balance slate is a good start, the main issue here in my opinion is how this even happened in the first place. There are many reasons, such as:
  • Tiering issues: Right off the bat for this mod, you could sub mons for Ubers, OU, or UU. This led to a lot of confusion regarding where mons should be placed, which led to many discrepancies in power levels in OU and UU (not sure about Ubers). There’s many ways to solve this issue, but the best would likely be to do something similar to Fusion Evolution, and have OU be the first part, then follow up with UU and so on. A counterargument made against this in the past is that subs should be made based on their power level in game, which therefore determines their tier. This notion is part of the reason why this mod is in the state it’s in. It is not a good idea for this mod.
  • No vetoes: No vetoes are in place at all here. This is a huge mistake, and despite me calling for it more than a year ago, no action or attempt was even made to rectify this issue. Balance slates are not a substitute for vetoes.
  • Poor leadership: If things remain the way they are (as in this balance slate follows the trajectory of the past ones), then this mod will once more become unbalanced in the future. More needs to be done, and should have already been done, in order to rectify these issues.
  • The community: This is by FAR the biggest issue. Anyone with a differing opinion is effectively segregated from the regulars in this mod. When me and anaconja discussed the balance of this mod about a year ago, many of the counterpoints made against us were that “you haven’t participated in this mod long enough to know any better”. If you want people to like your mod and have your mod grow and improve, accept community feedback instead of disgracing those who give it. As for those who want balance, be passionate but not rude, otherwise I fear that this cycle will repeat itself in the future.
Maybe I’ll make another post later, but for now this is what I’ve got to add speaking as someone who has attempted to campaign for balancing this mod in the past.
 
We've had this crop up in the Discord server lately but people are clamoring for Z-Moves to be banned or at least have it kicked upstairs to Ubers like Sleep moves were in the honestly powercrept to all hell Scarlet/Violet OU tier. I'm not saying whether or not I'd vouch for it, but others have addressed a good chunk of offensive mons could use regular Z-Moves to break through what little defensive mons we have right now (and we could definitely use some more). We've been overestimating our offensive mons often because we fail to realize how well Z-Moves could boost their offensive power (I blame the lack of playtesting/slate code parity). I scarcely remember VGC aficionado Wolfe Glick express his ardent dislike for Z-Moves and how it (sort of) ruined VGC for him, and I feel like some of you actually agree with him; despite how he likes Dynamax better than Z-Moves, which we obviously don't reciprocate with for Smogon Singles.
 
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  • Base Attack and Speed lowered by 10 and 20 respectively. (From 125 and 135.)
  • Centipede Assault and Luciola Cruciata's BPs nerfed to 80 and 160, respectively. (From 100 and 180.)
These changes should hopefully reign Nightbug in a bit by lowering her overall damage. If need be, we can nerf her further (i.e. remove Agility and leave her reliant on Flame Charge), but this is probably fine for now.
  • Base stats changed from (80/100/80/100/90/90) to (80/100/80/100/87/93).
This just gives Demo his speed from actual TF2, because for some reason I didn't think to do that.
This could also lead to slightly more speed-centric sets, which would help with diversity.

  • KABLOOIE!'s base power lowered from 200 to 175.
  • Also he learns Magnet Bomb now bc I couldn't be bothered to add it earlier.
  • Instead of dealing 1.5x damage if user moves before the target, it deals a critical hit if said criteria is met.

This should boost Spy's wall-breaking abilities a bit, as well as being more canonically accurate, since a successful backstab in TF2 is always considered a critical hit.
Plus, Spy having wall-breaking capabilities does go along with his one real strength in Mann vs. Machine, where he just acts as a niche giant killer due to his knife's armor penetration upgrade.

I personally feel like Z-Moves should not be banned, as they can help with getting past something that they typically struggle with.
Though, some are definitely a "bit" overtuned, but that's what nerfs are for.
 
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This Z-Move conversation should not be done here. It’s already being discussed in the discord, stop bringing it up here. The logical solution here is to test if Z-Moves are broken in this meta (when we can test) and move from there. To my knowledge, nobody is campaigning for an immediate Z-Move ban, and if they are it is too hasty to do so.
 
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