Gen 9 OM Discussion [SPOILERS]

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The BH Metagame: Before It Begins

:arceus: This is the top 1. Arceus should, obviously, be on almost every serious team. Having this much bulk is incredible for how strong everything is, especially without Xerneas or Regigigas around. Speaking of those, Arceus is the replacement for them unless we get Arceus Clause.
:eternatus: Speaking of BH titans, Eternatus. We already know what this thing can do, so why not expand on it? I’m predicting a huge rise in ImpForm sets, which hopefully lead to the eventual ImpForm ban. Also, Eternabeam was removed, so City’s career is over.
:zacian-crowned: It was nerfed! But it’s still good. Really, REALLY good. Probably banworthy unless ImpForm goes. Intrepid Sword is also nerfed to be an honestly pretty mediocre ability, so maybe we can see some cool usages for that.
:zamazenta-crowned: Oof, this got nerfed too. Thankfully, it’s not as drastic. Only lost 5 in both defenses and 10 in attack. Just does normal Zama-C things, but this time it’s not worried about beating Gigas, and instead worried about beating Normalceus.
:groudon: He’s back, and unchanged! Love this guy. He’s gonna save you from all the stupid Eterns and Arcs and Zamacs and Zaccs, it’s great, spam Scales Don.
:kyogre: Wow, Kyogre is good? Really? You’ve gotta be joking. What next? Calyrex Shadow gonna be broken? Please, make more BELIEVABLE jokes.
:calyrex-shadow: I’ve been avoiding talking about this. Do I even need to say something? It’s Caly. Just trust me on this one, ban this stupid ass deer.

New Additions From Gen 9

Terastalize: Oh boy. It’s free STAB for every move in the game. It’s hard to say why Tera is so broken, so let’s go over some examples. Groudon…but it can wall everything with Tera Steel. Rayquaza…but it gets free Adaptability on top of Aerilate Boomburst. Calyrex Shadow…but it gets STAB on all its coverage moves. Just ban it, we know it’s gonna be broken, why waste time?
Ting-Lu: 160/135/80 bulk with that typing. Jesus Christ. This is one of the top mons in the meta. It walls everything that can’t hit it with a STAB -ate Boomburst, and even that isn’t necessarily guaranteed if it runs Scales.
Recovery Nerf: The biggest blow to defense. Bulky walls like Giratina are ruined because of this. Now, they do have some new tools, and Strength Sap seems to be unchanged…but what if they want more long term healing? Fuck this change, tl;dr.
Shed Tail: This on Regen Tina. What is there to say? It’s a SubPass in one turn. Probably gonna be banned sooner or later.
Tidy Up: Defog, but it gets rid of Sub and is also Dragon Dance. Ok. Yup. That’s balanced. Would never be broken. Definitely shouldn’t be banned.
Koraidon: I’ve spent too long on this post. It’s probably cool, deals big damage with CC. Miraidon is the same but change that for whatever electric STAB it’ll use. Oh yeah, they’re stupid bulky too.
Flutter Mane: Looks good. Heavy competition from Fairyceus, but it has higher spatk and speed, also significantly less bulky but…eh. Take what you can get.
Slither Wing: Hey, a good Bug/Fighting with actual bulk! This has some potential to be cool. CC + U-Turn is super good, beats everything it doesn’t lose to.
Chien-Pao: Weavile if it was good. Has some defensive utility as a Caly check, since Caly’ll probably spam Ice moves for Ting-Lu.

I’ve spent too long on this post, and I’m hungry, so that’s the end of it. Remember, THIS IS THEORYMONNING, not objective fact about what the meta will be. Have a good gen, folks.


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Well time for a revolution, reevo will be losing plenty of their current top tier mons
:golisopod: :ferrothorn: :clefable: :togekiss: :excadrill: :heliolisk: :ninetales-alola: :hitmonlee:

Big losers:
:corviknight: :toxapex:
With the recovery move nerf, Corv and pex are now much less reliable, on top of that, pex may lose access to Knock Off and Scald, becoming completely unable to threaten the breakers. Corv may still be good, but I expect pex to just die.

Got a new ability that boost the damage of cutting move, like this thing needed any more damage here with 215 Atk, but if the tier becomes more offensive now then it may actually become a bit worse than what it is now.

:jolteon: :vaporeon: :umbreon:
Eevee now learns CM, so all eeveelutions get access to that and those 3 are the ones that actually care, it helps them a lot, Jolteon may actually be good this time. Vap and Umbreon should be able to set up on all that stuff they check and can easily become poison or steel to stop toxic from stopping them.

Priority Parting shot on your screener, without Alolan Ninetales it should be the best option HO has and it looks quite good at it.

So this A- mon can use Eviolite now, huh. Expect bulky SD to be popular.

:noivern: :dragonite: :frosmoth: :rillaboom:
Tera seems quite strong and still don't know if it will last all gen, as it really puts a lot of stuff over the edge, it can give you new stabs (normal vern/nite), get you a better type (electric frosmoth) or increase your damage outout (super grass rillaboom). The bulky nature of the tier may help a bit to keep the mechanic under control, but I have my serious doubts about this.

New mons:

Lilligant-Hisui has 175Atk, 180Spe and a decent bulk in 95/100/100 oh and Chlorophyll if you don't want to miss moves with Hustle. I expect this to be used like Barraskewda, but in sun with tera fire.
Skeledirge is bulkier than clef and has Slack off, so it should help the quags at checking all the broken set-up sweepers thanks to unaware.
Meowscarada seems like a direct upgrade from Cinderace and gets spikes and tspikes.
Clodsire is Quagsire but for special defense.
Charcadet is very weak, so both evolutions have like 200 on their main offensive stat, I'm quite interested on physcial chandelure but with Umbreon still here it may have a bad time.
Gholdengo has 800BST, 129/90/120/191/112/158 so it hits hard, has great bulk, is fast and has a broken type, I doubt it would be too crazy, but NP may put it over the edge.
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I'm really excited to get some old faces back in BH including:
Hoopa-U: It's slow, but especially in the more offensive metagame, it will almost certainly see play. I haven't looked into a lot of the new moves since we don't have power numbers on them but Sucker Punch and Knock Off coming off 160 atk will definitely hurt. And Lumina Crash might also see play on it, but since Xern appears to be gone, all the bulky Fairy-types except Arceus-Fairy will resist that too, so it could probably run without Psychic coverage. Close Combat, V-Create, Blue Flare or Tera blast Fighting can take care of them though

Meloetta-P: This one will probably not actually see much play when pitted against Zamazenta-H which is 10 Spe faster and a little more bulky than it, but the one thing it does have is a Spectral Thief immunity. Maybe run it with Poison Heal?

Arceus: This is, of course, the one we've always been missing. There'd better be Arceus clause!

Someone above said that Regigigas is gone. Luckily for us, Slaking isn't, so it will probably slot in just fine.

New underrated mons to try:<br />
Enamorus: Fairy / Flying with 135 Sp. Atk and 74/110/100 bulklooks great for triage use. Add on something like Ceaseless Edge for coverage against Steels and you have a mon that can always make progress with unblockable Spikes. Pretty neat!

Ting-Lu: Dark / Ice with 135 spe and 130 atk is pretty crazy!
Other random observations
Doom Desire Dialga is out
All the ultrabeasts are gone, the main upshot of this is that there's no Kartana. Necrozma, Metagross and Solgaleo also seem to be out; this means that all the psychic / steel Belly Drummers are just gone. I'm sure Belly drum will still be a pretty dumb move though.

Ceaseless edge,, Mortal Spin, Ice Spinner, Tidy Up. The hazards game just got way more interesting and I'm interested to see how we handle it, especially if recovery moves are more scarce. It's not clear from the move descriptions whether the latter two moves actually clear up hazards, but if they do, that's pretty wild.

depending on its base power, Rage Fist could be really good or junk. Sadly it looks like it's Fighting type so it will be competing against Body Press for a move slot, and we all know how good that is.

Dark Triage users now get Bitter Blade!

We now have terrain + switch moves; could we be seeing weather and terrain teams making a comeback? Shed Tail looks pretty broken though; it will probably one of the first things to be suspected.
i've been spreading this image for a while now, to make it easier to see what/which pokémon exactly are missing from the game still. click for the full thing.
all mons in scvi (green = available, red = mega, blue = gigantamax, orange = alolan, gray = ga...png

anyway i only care about the OM where you STAB some mons so

has Flower Trick, a physical 70 BP move that cannot miss and always lands a critical hit. I'm pretty sure this overshadows anything else other mons might currently run (except maybe Grav Apple?).
's got some tools: Skeledirge's signature Torch Song is a complete upgrade over Fiery Dance that lets you boost your Special Attack up while still dishing out damage. Armarouge's Armor Cannon looks like a Special Close Combat clone to me. Ceruledge's Bitter Blade is probably better on something else.
We have Water-type Flare Blitz now in Wave Crash. Quaquaval's Aqua Step (Physical, 80 BP, 100 Acc, 100% +1 Spe) seems to be a great tool for slow-ish Water mons that don't want to be tied down to Scarf.
Silk Trap is King's Shield but for Speed over Attack, and I'm not sure if there's that many Pokémon that'll want it, but it is noteworthy.
Stone Axe is actually insane. Deals damage and sets up Stealth Rock. I feel like every team will want to slot this in somewhere.
Shed Tail is absolutely getting banned. I'm not sure how Population Bomb works. Tidy Up is seriously disgusting. Hyper Drill is a move that can (try to) seal the gap left by Return and Frustation's removal.
Gigaton Hammer has a gargantuan 160 Base Power, with the only drawback being you can't click it twice in a row. We should be glad Kartana is gone for now.
Between Psyshield Bash's +1 Def, Esper Wing's +1 Spe, Mystical Power's +1 SpA and Lumina Crash inflicting -2 SpDef on the target, Psychic-types are full of options for this new gen.
Ban Victory Dance. Axe Kick is just a weaker HJK. I don't know what to think about Rage Fist but it's probably going to be as gimmicky as Reversal.
Chilly Reception has... potential...??? It's silly. I think it's the standout for this generation as far as Ice is concerned. Glacial Lance will probably stay restricted.
Comeuppance deals greater damage against the opponent that last damaged the user. I'm not sure what the BP is, or what the added damage could look like, but it's something to keep in mind. I don't think this'll be more common than Knock Off anyway.

anyway i think thats it?? comment down below what your favorite TYPE is
Very excited to tear things up with Kingambit, but that really depends on how exactly Supreme Overlord works. How much does your attack increase by with each fallen ally?

He still has Defiant too, and because he's so naturally bulky, his defenses are the equivalent of an eviolite Bisharp. It's much slower though and will need to rely on sucker punch more, but it has way more damage potential and item versatility to compensate.

Gholdengo has 800BST, 129/90/120/191/112/158 so it hits hard, has great bulk, is fast and has a broken type, I doubt it would be too crazy, but NP may put it over the edge.
I'm actually unclear on how to get Gholdengo's stats that high. Does it have something to do with the coin mechanic?
I'm actually unclear on how to get Gholdengo's stats that high. Does it have something to do with the coin mechanic?
Nope, they're talking about Re-Evolution's mechanic (evolutions gain twice the stat increase they gain normally. Example: if normally a mon would go 10 atk -> 50 atk, in Re-evo it goes 10 atk -> 90 atk)
STABmons looks lit- Please do not ban anything for the first two days so I we can try fun stuff before it gets banned. I also hope I will be able to use Seed Flare without it being a damned meme because the highest SPA grass mon is Roserade.
Stone Axe hopefully does not have crappy accuracy and decent BP.
Gigaton Hammer is the move we all want to spam (every other turn) until it gets banned. What a fun move.
I generally quote A Girlboss's post, what a lovely gen for STAB for the first day or two.
Anyway: Primordial Sea and Desolate Land are in the game so AAA is safe from (normal) weather crap. So glad.
I wonder if -ate abilities are going to be relevant again. Hopefully so. Return and Frustration still not being in the game piss me off though, damned GF. Also, hopefully I will be able to spam Aerialate Espeed Dragonite before it gets banned.
Protean/Libero being ruined means that they might be freed, at least for a bit.
Orichalcum Pulse & Hadron Engine: It will be fun the first day, before they get banned.
I don't remember any other ability effects so I'll stop here. This gen looks fun.
National Dex looks also fun.

drampa's grandpa

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Oooooh STABmons looks.... broken like everything else. What a surprise. Everything in this post is about STABmons.

Ignoring Tera because I still have no clue what to think of it and it will be banned quickly.

This move is truly absurd if what I'm hearing now is true. The base power is 50, and it is said to get 50 BP on TOP of that for every fainted ally, up to four fainted allies or 250 BP. For perspective, that makes it a solid STAB with only one ally down, say a suicide lead, and a blowaway powerhouse move with only two down. Past that it's just insanely OP.

252 Atk Dragapult Last Respects (250 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 385-454 (112.9 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Dragapult Last Respects (250 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 247-292 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The only downside is that you need to wait for the power to ramp up slowly. This move is perfect for the HO hell we're bound to see in the early days of the metagame.

The only real question I need to answer is are there decent abusers? Actually outside of Dragapult, which is broken no matter what... not really until Home comes out, if the info we have is right, but I want to highlight several.
First: Annihilape.

None of that besides the typing looks that impressive if I'm going to be real (I mean the bulks not bad), but with this move and a Choice Scarf or Webs support it will definitely be an incredible nuke mid-late game on hyper-offensive teams.

Annihilape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Last Respects
- U-turn
- Ice Punch

Second is one of the Pokemon that was officially announced awhile back, fake spoopy Gallade, Ceruledge. This also gets V-Create unless the council is smart and it starts banned. If V-Create is legal a Band set sounds absolutely terrifying, while if it isn't Scarf or Webs support is probably the way to go again.

Flash Fire/Weak Armor

Ceruledge @ Choice Band
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Last Respects
- V-Create
- Close Combat

Gonna be real, Dragapult being broken with this move isn't much of an argument for anything. Dragapult is broken with any extra moves. We know what it does. I used it as the example above for a reason. Let's have fun with our 142 Speed 120 Attack mon spamming a 250 BP attack while it lasts.

Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Last Respects

Mimikyu, with Disguise and Last Respects up its Pikachu-style sleeve, will be able to turn matches around in a heartbeat. I intend to use this mon on pretty much all my early meta teams, as it seems like it will not only stop sweepers in their tracks without having to use Swords Dance but break even the craziest of walls.
Have fun with this move BH!
I'm not sure if Gigaton Hammer is broken or not tbh. I'm leaning towards yes, because it's going to hit really really hard, but the fact that it heavily discourages Choice items and is fairly easy to dance around with coverage and/or Protect makes me think that it will be able to stay at least for a little while while we deal with Pokemon.

I don't have any sets for this one. Sucks to suck drampa's grandpa.
Now some cool mons sets because that's my favorite thing to do at the beginning of a gen!

Ursaring @ Eviolite / Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat / Softboiled
- Crunch / Fake Out

Gumshoos @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch
- U-turn
- Explosion / Head Charge

Sylveon @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Soft-Boiled

Ursaluna isn't in the game until Spring. Until then these are our best Extreme Speeders, and we will need them. Spreads are very approximate, moveslots less so. Notably Sylveon does NOT get Mystical Fire, meaning Steels walk all over it. Psyshock and Shadow Ball can still help as coverage, but are generally too weak to do much. I'm not actually positive if Eviolite Ursaring works yet, but it should. It has a coded evolution. >:(. These sets are nothing new, and are used at the beginning of every gen, but they'll be necessary for the early meta. I'm pretty sure I ripped these right from Gen 7 lol.
I have been informed the stats for these are wrong.

Ting-Lu - 165/110/130/50/80/45 (Total: 580) - Dark/Ground - Vessel of Ruin
Vessel of Ruin: The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous vessel lowers the Sp. Atk stats of all Pokémon except itself.

First of the new semi-legendary mons, this thing is absurdly fat. Its typing is OK, being a Volt Blocker and resisting a bunch of common types. And who cares about its weaknesses, its FAT. I'm not sure if it's ability is passive or an Intimidate clone yet, but either way is really good. This won't be broken due to the recovery nerf and the fact that it doesn't get Toxic, but it loves that very little else gets Toxic and wants to come in on it.

Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD or Def
Impish Nature
- Shore Up
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Thousand Arrows (let's pretend this is legal ^_^) / Wicked Blow (why do u keep telling me my move choices aren't going to be allowed ):<)

Chien-Pao - 80/130/80/90/65/135 (Total: 580) - Dark/Ice - Sword of Ruin
Sword of Ruin: The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous sword lowers the Defense stats of all Pokémon except itself.

Number 2. Remember Weavile? This is like Weavile but faster and stronger and bulkier and with a better movepool and ability and broken. Feel sorry for AAA, and run Weavile-like sets and it will do them better.

Wo-Chien - 85/90/100/100/135/70 (Total: 580) - Dark/Grass - Tablets of Ruin
Number 3. This is the Virizion of the quartet in that it's not very good or interesting compared to the rest. Bad typing, bad stat spread. Just not worth it.

Chi-Yu - 55/80/80/145/120/100 (Total: 580) - Dark/Fire - Beads of Ruin
Beads of Ruin: The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous beads lowers the Sp. Def stats of all Pokémon except itself.
Number 4. My personal favorite, although not the best or most broken.

Either Nasty Plot or Specs sets have great potential (and yes it learns Nasty Plot naturally). Its bulk is rather iffy thanks to its 55 HP, but its Fire/Dark offensive typing is awesome. I think Nasty Plot has a lot more potential because of one particular move: Will-O-Wisp. This will allow you to cripple Tyranitar, which, if this generation of STABmons is anything like last, will be a serious pain in Chi-Yu's ass.

Chi-Yu @ Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Beads of Ruin
EVs: 252 Spa / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Blue Flare / Magma Storm
- Nasty Plot
- Fiery Wrath
- Taunt / Will-O-Wisp

Well there's a lot more I could say but I have to go so enjoy my idea vomiting :D
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And maybe I don't quite know what to say
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Hello friends, I wanted to give you a sneak peak at our current plans for SV AAA, cause frankly, there are a lot of changes coming.

By far the biggest change is we will be starting the generation with Single Ability Clause! This obviously has huge ramifications, from breaking Regen cores to forcing more decisions about what abilities to put where.

The second big change is we will be freeing loads of abilities banned in SS AAA, for two reasons. One, a SAC meta is very different than a 2AC meta, and we want to see how some old overpowered abilities hold up. Second, there seems to be some tremendous power creep in terms of moves and Pokémon, so maybe some previously overpowered abilities will be okay? We will find out!

Here is the current proposed banlist:
Arena Trap
Gorilla Tactics
Huge Power
Innards Out
Magnet Pull
Neutralizing Gas
Parental Bond
Pure Power
Shadow Tag
Speed Boost
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard

Items: King’s Rock

Moves: Baton Pass

Short version, Fur Coat, Ice Scales, Stakeout, Fluffy, Unburden, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce, Intrepid Sword, Protean, and Libero will all be free!

Tentatively, none of the new abilities will be banned on day one, with a few big caveats. If the cover legendary’s abilities end up being +1 Attack/Special Attack or greater, expect them to be added to the initial banlist. If it’s something smaller like 1.3x, they’ll probably be free day one, but obviously on the watch list. Also if the Ruin abilities apply constantly, not just on switch in, then we’re looking at pre-nerf Intrepid Sword basically and those may end up banned as well.

What does this mean for AAA? What new mons are going to be good? What new and old abilities are going to shine? Please tell me!


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if i am not wrong and the ruin abilities are an aura of -1 stat, meaning any pokemon that switches in are automatically inflicted with these stat drops as long as the ability holder is present...

vessel of ruin: -1 spa to any pokemon that is on the field
tablets of ruin: -1 atk to any pokemon that is on the field

vessel is a nice addition and i imagine it would pretty much be a special ds. tablets...i suppose they aren't ignored by opportunist compared to ds, but ds will prolly still be used with body press. at +0 they are pretty much the same, i didnt do the math on stat boosts/drops to see which is strictly better or if theyre the same in the end anyway. intimidate is still good for pivots unless the ruin abilities' stat drops persist even after the ability holders leave the field. in which case tablets might just be used for everything except ds press abusers.

now the other two:

sword of ruin: -1 def to any pokemon that is on the field
beads of ruin: -1 spd to any pokemon that is on the field

this...this is pretty much isword/its special equivlant but better in some ways (and maybe worse in others, you tell me). the damage boost is still the same at +0, but they are unaffected by unaware nor are they copied by opportunist. aside from that, 0.67 to the opponent's defense is pretty much the same as 1.5 to your own attack. oh, and keep in mind just like isword, you cant just switch out to shake it off. its an aura, remember? finally, since opponent stat drops are multiplicative compared to your own boosts, boosted attackers will actually hit harder with these abilities compared to an isword-like ability. idk if theres any negative tradeoffs, but i think they are still worth looking at as they are pretty much exactly what isword offers to unboosted breakers: 1.5x boost to an attacking stat for free.

if its not an aura, uhh vessel becomes special intimidate, tablets is literally an intim clone, sword and beads can force switches ig but i have a feeling the damage boosters we already have are likely still better.
Asking 2 people in this forum about whether the new Ability Shield item lets you ignore Neutralizing Gas. If the answer is yes, then Gen 9 Pure Hackmons might be saved! ...And turn into bootleg Gen 7 PH instead of BDSP PH.

Asking questions related to this, too, but Gen 9 The Loser's Game speculation is fun (this assumes that all older held items remain legal and moves can be transferred over from Home):

First things first: Magic Coat has been snapped. Magic Coat was often disruptors' and Steel Beamers' salvation against faster/Prankster Taunt/Encore users. With no more Magic Coat, raw base speed will become more important than ever.

Second: Please let Terastal stay unbanned in this Ubers-based meta! Terastal lets many Camo/Bonus Type Losers concepts become reality for one mon on your team, such as these:
  • Tera Dark will likely become the default so you can ignore opposing Prankster users and even switch into them. Calyrex-Shadow will get a noticeable boost as the Dark Tera, as it is one of the fastest mons in the meta and has Taunt, Heal Pulse, Encore, Trick, and Imprison to boot.
  • Tera Ghost intriguingly lets a lot more mons use Ghost Curse for their own advantage. Possibly the most notable is Espeon, who gets Magic Bounce (so its self-2HKO is pretty hard to disrupt), Baton Pass, and (defensive) Trick.
  • Tera Ice may get a niche for turning your mon into better Steel Beam and Stealth Rock fodder.

Now for mon speculation, from snaps to new entries:

Snaps first - you'll be waiting for DLC or worse to get these mons back:
  • Xatu (the meta just lost arguably its best Defogger and Magic Bouncer)
  • Accelgor (no more extra-fast Knock Off tied to Trick/Knock Off switch-in)
  • Purrloin (a Dark-type Steel Beam fodder with Prankster along with Taunt and Encore was pretty nice)
  • Silvally (while Magic Coat being snapped means this guy would have taken a substantial hit anyway, losing the best Steel Beamer anti-Imprison phazer still hurts)
  • Cobalion (and losing the second best Steel Beamer phazer also hurts)
  • Jirachi (losing one of the best lead Steel Beamers in the meta also hurts)
  • Cottonee (losing a pretty good Defogger, Prankster, and Steel Beam fodder is never any fun)
Notably staying/un-snapped mons (at least post-Home) next!
  • Cinderace (Court Change is back, everyone!)
  • Calyrex-Shadow (even manages to make it with all its viable moves intact no matter what!)
  • Zacian (movepool's still as barren as before, and still slower than Caly-S, but a blazing fast Imprison Steel Beamer is hard to ignore)
  • Klefki (fastest Substitute and Imprison among all Steel Beamers, thanks to Prankster, means that it keeps its slot even if Defog cannot be transferred over)
  • Impidimp (as if Taunt and Trick weren't enough on this Steel Beam fodder and Prankster user, now it also gets Parting Shot)
  • Gothitelle (the original Shadow Tag trapper returns)
  • Pawniard (neat spare cog in full Steel Beam spam teams that can switch into Pranksters awesomely and Trick...not quite as well)
  • Talonflame (Court Change teams will still need to be prepared against)
  • Murkrow (Prankster Taunt-Perish Song-Whirlwind is back, baby!)
Finally, new/PLA mons!
  • Cyclizar: Regardless of whether it rips out 25% or 50% of its maximum HP, Shed Tail can still provide crucial support in fewer moveslots than Substitute and Baton Pass separately. 121 base speed along with Taunt ensures this guy isn't quite a sitting duck.
  • Gholdengo: At worst, this guy is a Steel Beamer who is immune to Taunt, Encore, and Heal Pulse (among other status moves), thus giving it a Sandshrew-A-like role as a nigh-universal switch-in who will KO only one opposing mon when blowing itself up (instead of the 2 that faster Taunters can force). At best, this also nullifies opposing Trick, Defog, Whirlwind, and Stealth Rock. So Stealth Rock Court Change teams can also want this guy...scary.
  • Shroodle: With worse bulk than Purrloin, this Prankster will likely take over Purrloin's job despite not being immune to opposing Prankster (unlike Purrloin). Taunt, Encore, and Switcheroo all help its case.
  • Electrode-H: If Chloroblast's recoil is just like Steel Beam's, then this mean dude is a self-2HKOer who has Taunt and speed-ties Calyrex-S. ...And is immune to Roar.
  • Chien-Pao: Regardless of a lack of support moves other than Taunt, being the fastest Dark-type without Prankster has to count for something. ...Especially in Court Change teams due to also being Stealth Rock-weak.
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What does this mean for AAA? What new mons are going to be good? What new and old abilities are going to shine? Please tell me!
i have limited aaa experience but these are the new abilities that stood out to me:
- anger shell: sounds pretty scary, basically shell smash meets berserk. i imagine it will be limited to only some niche setup sweepers, anything else would much prefer a more immediate damage boost. could be a good cheese strat though

- purifying salt: this ability sounds hype for defensive mons. means any mon can be a ghost resist and gets an extra status immunity to prevent that from being too niche. considering there's some scary ghosts like flutter mane, gholdengo, dragapult, i could see this realistically being used and maybe even make flutter mane and pult balanced in the meta. (keyword: maybe)

- well-baked body: huge upgrade over flash fire, but sadly no ferrothorn to abuse it. seems like it'd have the same utility flash fire/primordial sea did for steel types but with a much bigger punish, seems like it'd be a nasty nerf to any physical fire-type attacker, like cinderace maybe.

- rocky payload: could be obnoxious depending on the boost it gives. considering the native user is a non-rock type i could realistically see it being equivalent to a stab boost, which would be really strong. not sure what would abuse it though, maybe regular or paradox tyranitar? not many powerful rock types in the regional dex, i suppose some mons could just use it for boosted rock coverage

- protosynthesis/quark drive: does this mean that any mon can hold booster energy and proc it with this ability? sounds like really crazy cheese if so, depends a bit on how good the boost from this ablity ends up being though.

- good as gold: full immunity to status moves might make this too strong. means any mon can block defog and be immune to status plus things like taunt, encore, etc. seems like an easy way to make a sweeper really unmanageable or to just force hazard stack strats. only downside i can see is that it doesn't have a power boost attached.

- not sure how to judge the ruin abilities, they seem pretty good but how good depends on how they work. if it's like intimidate, then the -def/spdef ones sound good for forcing things out and the -spatk one is neat for walling. if it's a passive debuff, then the -def/spdef ones could be really overpowered depending just how much they lower the stat by

- opportunist: really funny imposter-like effect. the fact that you (presumably) have to be on field when the boost happens makes it seem pretty fair, probably even healthy since setup sweepers got so much in this gen

- toxic debris: another solid tool for hazard stack, though toxic spikes are probably the weakest hazard of them all. still free hazards though

sorry for the long list lol, just a lot of abilities that stuck out to me. pretty excited to try this gen of AAA out, it'll be really ridiculous at first but after a couple bans it'll stabilize. the power level is definitely higher than last gen but that's not necessarily a bad thing, tho it seems like the matchup issue people had with gen 8 is definitely not going away lol.
Some immediate thoughts on various metas.

Cross Evolution has a bunch of previously fully evolved pokemon it can work with that can end up with some very impressive stats. Notably there is a surge of new normal types to work with (Stantler, Girafarig, Dunsparce, Ursaring) as well as some others with better typings (Basculin-H, Qwilfish-H, Primeape, and most broken of all Bisharp). Of the normals I'm interested in Jolteon Girafarig, Toxtricity Girafarig or Dunsparce with STAB Punk Rock Boomburst (which one depends on if you want an extra Psychic STAB or recovery), defensive support Gyarados Dunsparce with recovery, and various physical attacking Stantlers and Ursarings (Gallade looks insane for the latter). Bisharp may be banworthy. Basculin seems to be a complete upgrade to Carvanha (which is kinda too bad as I love Carvanha).

Of the new pokemon there isn't too much in Crossevo that immediately grabs my eye. Glimmet has a very high base special attack stat, and Toedscool may be able to pull off some sets by virtue of its special defense like Tentacool was. The mid stage pseudo may have potential though I haven't checked how much of its movepool is shared with its evolved form.

Clodsire will love Pokebilities. Unaware, Water Absorb, and Poison Point in conjunction sounds amazing, mainly the first two, as its job will be to block special set up sweepers and doesn't have the defense stat to take most contact moves, but Poison Point could still proc on weak U-turns or as a little parting gift if it gets KO'd by a strong contact move.

Lots of potentially interesting things in Flipped, though I want to hold off commenting on many of them as I am still figuring out movepools. Glimmora looks like a great Sylveon switch-in. Iron Moth even moreso. It strikes me that Toedscruel's gimmick Mycelium Might ability could be much more useful here, a meta where bulky Magic Bounce Espeon is running rampant.

That could also give Toedscruel a niche in Loser's Game, come to think of it (but the reduced priority really sucks there).


Growing old doesn't mean growing up
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
I wanna talk about some of the new and returning Pokémon, as well as abilities and moves, in Full Potential, an OM that unfortunately didn't come back in Gen 8 but I will be hopefully bringing it back once Gen 9 submissions open up ^_^

First off, returning Pokémon:
  • :tyranitar: This thing was an absolute beast back then and it doesn't look like anything has really changed so it should still be a standout Pokémon in the meta. Sand + AV should still do some major work in Gen 9 Full Potential.
  • :dragapult: A Pokémon that never got to truly utilize the OM will get its chance hopefully in Gen 9. Base 142 Speed with a boosting move in Agility will make this thing super scary for almost any team (it may not even stick around but we shall see)
  • :sylveon: Another big threat back in Gen 7, this should still resurface (post HOME) as a solid AV user with Fairy priority in Pixilate-boosted Quick Attack and can even run Facade to hit hard after being statused.
  • :toxapex: While this thing lost a LOT of moves utility wise (rip Scald and Knock Off), it can still be a decent Pokémon thanks to its massive Defense and Special Defense stats. While Defense is higher, it could probably utilize both depending on what the team may need.
  • :steelix: This was also a big threat back when Full Potential was around since it was able to utilize its base 200 Defense stat while also abusing Sheer Force thanks to accessing its special movepool. While slow, this may be a good wallbreaker but we will have to wait and see.
  • :regieleki: :shuckle: We don't talk about Bruno... (these will be banned day 0 alongside Speed boosting abilities lol)
Now for some of the new Pokémon:
  • Orthworm: Pure Steel with 145 Defense, Earth Eater, Iron Defense, and Body Press could have a niche over Steelix since it may not have the Ground typing in conjuction with the Steel typing, but it is faster naturally which could allow it to outspeed some of the bulkier things in the meta.
  • Maushold: With its signature moves in Tidy Up and Population Bomb as well as base 111 Speed, this could become a threat. It has just enough moves to potentially nail the Steel types that are bound to swarm this OM while spamming a really good STAB move lol
  • Cyclizar: While still frail, being able to utilize its base 121 Speed with a decent move pool is gonna be great for it and it has Regenerator to keep itself healthy.
  • Kilowattrel: This could be Swellow 2.0 which was really good back in Gen 7. Base 125 Speed with a Choice Scarf and a STAB Volt Switch could be super nice but also scary as there will be plenty of Bulky Ground types as well.
  • Klawf: This cute rock Crab may be dope as it gets a better stat to attack off of with its Defense and it also has Regenerator. Its movepool is also pretty decent so this may see some usage but we shall see.
  • Gargancl: This is the one I am most excited about of the new Pokémon. It gets immunity to status and a Ghost resist thanks to its ability, Purifying Salt. It also has a nice 130 Defense stat while having access to the coveted IronPress combo and has a recovery move (rip that though). It may be super slow but it is bulky enough to take hits imo.
  • Paradox forms: Most of the ones that are already based on Bulky Pokémon like Great Tusk, Iron Thorns, etc. are more than likely gonna be good in Full Potential as they have a standard already set for them kinda.
Anyways, I am really excited to see the OMs that I main (GG and STAB) get going and I can't wait until next weekend so we can get to testing and showing off all the shiny new toys. Lol


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I made a new spreadsheet with all the Updated stats for Re-Evolution
Some interesting mons I found for Re-Evolution
Lokix 109/158/116/83/85/139
Recently I learned how strong is a Tinted Lens Bug type can be if given good speed and decent atk, there is very little you can do to punish U-turn from this thing without taking a lot of damage, it also packs First Impression but will not be able to fill the hole Golisopod left there...

Rabsca 109/50/110/199/142/60
It not only has 199 SpA, it can revive an ally, kind of whatever beyond that and would be surprised if it is used on any other tier as it only look good here because of the reevo boost, is just Orbeetle otherwise.

Espathra 160/85/90/147/90/135
Great bulk, speed boost and apparently an 80 power Psychic-Type move that lowers SpD 2 stages (100% of the time), nasty bird.

Glimmora 118/75/138/155/102/112
New corrosion mon in a game where only Blissey learns Heal Bell (and aroma is dexited), it also has poison type rapid spin and the other ability set tspikes on contact, so it should have a niche over Salazzle.

Mabosstiff 100/162/120/80/89/119
162 Atk and Stakeout, I won't even bother to do calcs with this thing and just assume everything dies, even in standard play it has 120 Atk.

No idea how the meta will be this gen really, we are missing most of the key mons, Heal Bell is Chansey/Blissey only, Tera seems dumb, but the only guaranteed ban is Gyarados.

Some fun abilities for Shared Power:
Opportunist: "If an opponent’s stat is boosted, the Pokémon seizes the opportunity to boost the same stat for itself."
This could be useful to combat Stamina, Star Berry, and set up sweepers in general, it only has one user, a pure psychic with good enough stats.

Anger Shell: "When an attack causes its HP to drop to half or less, the Pokémon gets angry. This lowers its Defense and Sp. Def stats but boosts its Attack, Sp. Atk, and Speed stats."
Speaking of stats boosts, this should be awesome on HO Sturdy teams as it may be a "balanced" option to boost speed that won't end banned like other speed boosting abilities, specially because the only user is a pure rock with average stats.

The ruin abilities are all great and most likely end banned, same with the paradox abilities (or sun/eterrain would be beyond broken).
Good as Gold also seems great, but may be a worse Magic Bounce if it only works in the same moves.

A mon I'm interested on trying in Godly Gift is Iron Bundle :delibird:
Why? Because until home the only main legendaries are the bikes and Iron Bundle is 1 point faster than them, it may be silly, but it does give 114 Def and 124 SpA too. Also I love the mecha santa in general.


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I wanna talk about the nerfs for both Zacian forms and their implications for Godly Gift come S/V. Though they won't be coming for a while being Pokemon Home additions and all, I wanna drop some thoughts now, as well as in the near future before Home drops.



Intrepid Sword only activates once per battle now, but also both Zacian forms got a hit to their Atk stats. Despite the massive hits to their offensive output, I think the Zacian forms could potentially still be too much for GG.

1) Intrepid sword got a huge nerf, but said nerf only takes place when they switch out, meaning Zacian will be at its most dangerous the first time it comes in. This brings up the question: Will the meta be equipped to handle Zacian coming in the first time with Intrepid Sword? That one time boost can potentially create a ton of progress before they switch out/you force them out. Sure, they only get the +1 Atk the first time they come in, but it might do too much just coming in once, and even then you still have contend with the stats and movepool once it does lose Intrepid Sword.

2) If we take a look at Zacian's stats by itself without considering its receivers, the stats are still great for what it does. 138 and 148 speed is incredibly fast, even faster than the S/V box legendaries. The bulk is surprisingly good, especially when paired with the defensive typing of Fairy and Fairy/Steel. Though the biggest thing for me is that they're too fast for the meta. The damage nerf can easily be supplemented with Swords Dance as well, but it's not like Zacian is going to struggle to hit hard in the first place. 150 Atk is no joke still, and although 120 leaves a lot to be desired, the near perfect movepool and coverage makes up for it I feel. You have the ability to pop just about anything, as well as the option to tech things like Substitute or Quick Attack (potential meme).

Though the stat nerf and Intrepid Sword nerf did hamper their damage capabilities by quite a bit, I feel that they still could potentially be more than the meta could tolerate. They're too fast, and the attacks they throw off still hurt in spite of the nerfs. I think once you factor in the teambuilding aspect of it and consider what mons you'd give each of its stats to, that could push it further over the edge. Zacian-C is incredibly busted still, but base Zacian might just be really good and potentially be fine to stay. Though I think that it might just inch it out and be too much still. Though this is entirely speculation and my opinion since we haven't even begun to play GG pre-Home. I wanted to share my thoughts before we got to test-drive S/V GG, and I plan to make a follow up post in preparation for Pokemon Home whenever that is. These are just my 2 cents for now.

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spreading confusion
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Updated the Removed Moves pastebin now that we have more info.
Here's the removed moves that I consider to be relevant for STABmons
Anchor Shot
Beak Blast
Blue Flare
Bolt Beak
Bolt Strike
Clanging Scales
Clangorous Soul
Core Enforcer
Doom Desire
Double Iron Bash
Fishious Rend
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Gear Grind
Heal Order
Hidden Power
King’s Shield
Light of Ruin
Lovely Kiss
Magic Coat
Moongeist Beam
Nature’s Madness
Oblivion Wing
Psycho Boost
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Bone
Spectral Thief
Sunsteel Strike
Tail Glow
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
Not a big shocker given how last gen went, mostly 1:1 with cut mons having their signature moves cut for now. Expect things will change when DLC happens again.

Here's the tentative intial banlist and watchlist for gen 9 STABmons (subject to change)

Arena Trap
Shadow Tag

King's Rock

Baton Pass

Restricted Moves:
Acupressure, Astral Barrage, Belly Drum, Shell Smash, V-create, Wicked Blow



Iron Valliant
Iron Moth
Roaring Moon
Flutter Mane

Dragon Ascent
Extreme Speed
Final Gambit
No Retreat
Shift Gear
Thunderous Kick
Headlong Rush
Shed Tail
Tidy Up(?)
Victory Dance
Last Respects
Revival Blessing
Gigaton Hammer
Torch Song

Pretty much sticking to the obvious bans here- Komala's uncompetitive nature with ComaPhase isn't really worth having in the meta in any capacity. Terastallization is the big thing on everyone's minds, obviously we don't have enough info yet about it and playtesting it is way more important than making assumptions, so we aren't going to lean one way or the other on it until then. We also freed most moves this time around, with a lot being cut and us giving another shot to stuff like Extreme Speed and Shift Gear amidst the chaos. Our watchlist is pretty broad since we don't know what to expect, but beyond the obvious Pokemon bans I think the game plan this gen is to focus on broken moves for a while

Anyways, here's some thoughts I had on some new and returning mons too
New mons:
  • Ting-Lu- 155/110/125/55/80/45 (Total: 570) - Dark/Ground - Vessel of Ruin/Vessel of Ruin/Vessel of Ruin
    • Ting-Lu seems like an amazing blanket check to like... everything? Why is this mon so fat lmao 155/125/80 bulk with an ability that lowers opponent's SpA is insane, originally looking at it I thought it'd be broken but its movepool mostly is just support moves so I expect it to just be a really good bulky staple (also one of the best tyranitar checks we've ever seen rip the goat)
  • Iron Valiant- 74/130/90/120/60/116 (Total: 590) - Fairy/Fighting - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
    • I mean... I just don't see this one being balanced at all, especially when we're starting out with Victory Dance and No Retreat free. Even without those moves, these mixed offenses and STAB combo are breaking through just about everything not named Toxapex. Not much to this mon, don't expect it to stay very long.
  • Iron Moth- 80/70/60/140/110/110 (Total: 570) - Fire/Poison - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
    • Even with the majority of strong special Fire-type moves being cut, this one seems kind of crazy on paper. It would be awesome if it turns out to not be that strong (where's Heatran when you need it ;-;) but with additions like Torch Song I dunno
  • Roaring Moon- 105/139/71/55/101/119 (Total: 590) - Dragon/Dark - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
    • Similar to its other 590 BST counterpart, these offenses are just a little too insane to seem fine. Dragon Dance sets will be tough to crack with similarly good coverage to regular Salamence and a STAB combo that's just about as good.
  • Flutter Mane- 55/55/55/135/135/135 (Total: 570) - Ghost/Fairy - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
    • Spectrier 2.0 except this time give it Fleur Cannon... maybe the lack of strong Ghost-moves (no Moongeist Beam and Astral Barrage likely still banned) will be enough to keep it in the tier but again seems unlikely.
  • Annihilape - 110/115/80/50/90/90 (Total: 535) - Fighting/Ghost - Vital Spirit/Inner Focus/Defiant
    • Annihilape seems pretty insane offensively and has solid bulk to back it up, they really gotta stop giving Defiant to offensive behemoths lol.. Dunno if this mon will be broken or be fine but it'll be good no doubt
  • Gholdengo - 87/60/95/133/91/84 (Total: 550) - Steel/Ghost - Good as Gold/Good as Gold/Good as Gold
    • This mon is just a mystery... the ability giving immunity to all status moves seems pretty ridiculous, and being immune to Rapid Spin to boot is pretty crazy. Without Sylveon (even with sylv tbh), this thing seems like an insane stop to hazard removal, not to mention it's absolutely cracked offensively with Nasty Plot and 133 SpA and decent Speed.
  • Chien-Pao- 80/120/80/90/65/135 (Total: 570) - Dark/Ice - Sword of Ruin/Sword of Ruin/Sword of Ruin
    • Weavile's out, we got a new Ice-type in the mix... for like a day lol. This mon seems insanely busted, probably getting yeeted on the first ban slate.
  • Chi-Yu- 55/80/80/135/120/100 (Total: 570) - Dark/Fire - Beads of Ruin/Beads of Ruin/Beads of Ruin
    • While not as insane as Chien-Pao, a similarly broken seeming ability and a good STAB combo might push this thing over the edge... we'll see how well the classic Tyranitar/AV Pex staples handle this
  • Slither Wing- 85/135/79/85/105/81 (Total: 570) - Bug/Fighting - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
    • Cool mon, pretty much this generation's Buzzwole but just the offensive sets, Choice Band will probably be its best but No Retreat and Victory Dance sets will be good as well if those moves stick around.
  • Iron Bundle- 56/80/114/124/60/136 (Total: 570) - Ice/Water - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
    • Pretty insane offensive stats from the new Delibird... with perfect coverage from Steam Eruption/Freeze-Dry, it's pretty free to run support moves like U-turn/Flip Turn and Taunt if it wants. One of the best Speed tiers in the meta behind Dragapult and maybe one or two other things makes this a big threat.
  • Iron Hands- 154/140/108/50/68/50 (Total: 570) - Fighting/Electric - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
    • Awesome stats, awesome STAB combo, really interested by this mon. Don't think it will be fantastic given the overall lack of physical Electric coverage, especially if Victory Dance and No Retreat go, but I think it'll be decent. Another really hard Tyranitar switchin
  • Sandy Shocks- 85/81/97/121/85/101 (Total: 570) - Electric/Ground - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
    • pretty neat STAB combo and offensive stats, will be neat to see where exactly this mon lands on the VR
  • Baxcalibur - 115/145/92/75/86/87 (Total: 600) - Dragon/Ice - Thermal Exchange/Thermal Exchange/Ice Body
    • Our psuedo seems pretty decent tbh, Dragon Dance sets might be a bit OP or underwhelming, we'll see
  • Quaquaval - 85/120/80/85/75/85 (Total: 530) - Water/Fighting - Torrent/Torrent/Moxie
    • Quaquaval seems pretty solid offensively, and with Moxie and the speed boosting move I could see it snowballing pretty hard against unprepared teams
  • Meowscarada - 76/110/70/81/70/123 (Total: 530) - Grass/Dark - Overgrow/Overgrow/Protean
    • UGLY STUPID CAT. hope it sucks but even with the Protean nerf it seems like it will be decent
  • Cyclizar - 70/95/65/85/65/121 (Total: 501) - Dragon/Normal - Shed Skin/Shed Skin/Regenerator
    • This mon seems quite decent actually, even with an eh BST. Fast regen mons are pretty decent and its offensive stats aren't the worst. If Shed Tail gets hard banned I could see this falling into mediocre territory but it seems good to start at least.
  • Kingambit - 100/135/120/60/85/50 (Total: 550) - Dark/Steel - Defiant/Supreme Overlord/Pressure
    • Kingambit seems decent at least, unsure if it'll be better than Bisharp or not with the lowered speed but those stats are pretty good at least.
  • Wo-Chien- 85/85/100/95/135/70 (Total: 570) - Dark/Grass - Tablets of Ruin/Tablets of Ruin/Tablets of Ruin
    • The snail seems kinda eh overall but Dark/Grass has always been a kind of neat typing and its ability is pretty nice defensively, especially since it seems to not actually lower Attack by -1 which should pair nicely with Strength Sap (hopefully)
  • Brute Bonnet- 111/127/99/79/99/55 (Total: 570) - Grass/Dark - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
    • posting this with Wo-Chien as I think they'll be direct competition for each other... an offensive Amoonguss is just weird to look at honestly so I'm not sure what to think of it lol... has decent coverage with Close Combat and Stomping Tantrum and 127 Attack paired with Grav Apple can't be too bad right? for the most part though this is just slow Zarude from gen 8 which was only a decent mon bc it was fast
  • Iron Thorns- 100/134/110/70/84/72 (Total: 570) - Rock/Electric - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
    • This seems... okay? Would argue it's probably worse than Tyranitar in most ways and the STAB combo isn't something you particularly need and is hard walled by just about any Ground-type. Without Bolt Strike in the game it doesnt seem particularly powerful either.
  • Iron Jugulis- 94/80/86/122/80/108 (Total: 570) - Dark/Flying - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
    • Seems pretty good, the Speed tier is decent and Dark/Flying is great offensively, I could see it filling somewhat similar roles to G-Molt but without Agility
  • Iron Treads- 90/112/120/72/70/106 (Total: 570) - Ground/Steel - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
    • Iron Treads seems mostly eh overall, while it has decent defensive stats and typing, I'm not sure it has much going for it elsewhere. Its offensive stats are kind of mid but not bad by any means, though its coverage is lacking and it doesn't have any setup. Could be a decent hazard setter, but I think we have a lot better options in the meta, especially to start.
  • Great Tusk- 115/131/131/53/53/87 (Total: 570) - Ground/Fighting - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
    • Great Tusk on the other hand seems pretty fantastic, Ground/Fighting is a really solid offensive typing and they gave it good Rock and Ice coverage. Will definitely be broken early on with fighting setup moves available but we'll see how it shakes out in the meta
  • Pawmot - 70/115/70/70/60/105 (Total: 490) - Electric/Fighting - Volt Absorb/Natural Cure/Iron Fist
    • Ugh... ugly ass mon but it does naturally get Revival Blessing and has decent typing/ability/stats so I can't see this mon being unviable unless Revival Blessing gets hard banned.
  • Lokix - 71/102/78/52/55/92 (Total: 450) - Bug/Dark - Swarm/Swarm/Tinted Lens
    • Could end up being a really neat mon, Tinted Lens First Impression/Megahorn is tough as hell to switch into on paper
  • Revavroom - 80/119/90/54/67/90 (Total: 500) - Steel/Poison - Overcoat/Overcoat/Filter
    • Revavroom looks pretty decent as a Shift Gear sweeper, though its physical coverage seems to be lacking a bit
  • Glimmora - 83/55/90/130/81/86 (Total: 525) - Rock/Poison - Toxic Debris/Toxic Debris/Corrosion
    • Could be a good Meteor Beam sweeper given it has decent coverage, but I don't think it will be anything amazing
  • Klawf - 70/100/115/35/55/75 (Total: 450) - Rock/Rock - Anger Shell/Shell Armor/Regenerator
    • Again, nothing amazing but hard to pass up completely on a Regen mon, especially this gen
  • Espathra - 95/60/60/101/60/105 (Total: 481) - Psychic/Psychic - Opportunist/Frisk/Speed Boost
    • A Speed Boost sweeper with half decent offensive stats is worth a mention at least, Opportunist may be useful as well
  • Clodsire - 130/75/60/45/100/20 (Total: 430) - Poison/Ground - Poison Point/Water Absorb/Unaware
    • CLODSIRE... this thing probably won't be great but it's one of the hardest stops to Toxapex we've ever seen so that's neat, Unaware sets may see use if bulkier teams even exist
Returning mons
Okay... I'm tired of writing so I'm only gonna touch on the ones I care enough to talk about and just dump the rest in a hide tag if I think they'll be viable
  • Dragapult
    • Probably broken again but it will be nice to have it in the meta for a little bit at least
  • Dragonite, Salamence, Gyarados
    • I think these 3 will all be amazing again, would love to see Dragon Ascent get restricted this gen but we'll see what happens
  • Garchomp
    • Lol... it's baaaaack. Love Garchomp, hope it sticks around this time but it's still a crazy setup sweeper
  • Tyranitar
    • I expect this to stay a staple in the meta but tbh there's a LOT of fighting types and Ting-Lu shits on ttar so hard... at least it is pretty much the only thing keeping special attackers in check yet again
  • Toxapex
    • While regular Toxapex got nerfed hard, our buddy is still going pretty strong I think. Flip Turn makes up for the Recover nerf, and while it lost Knock Off I think AV sets will still be decent. If Clodsire becomes popular then maybe it'll be a little more difficult to run but for now I think it'll still be a staple for Bulky Offense
  • Slowking, Alomomola, Slowbro
    • The other Regenerator Flip Turn mons are back too woooooo, this time without Seismitoad to stop them. Slowking will be pretty neat I think since Future Sight looks amazing here given all the fighting breakers, but I do wonder if it will have a hard time getting in against so many Dark-type threats. Alomomola and Slowbro both seem like great physical blanket checks, and Alomomola seems like a goated Wish passer
  • Gastrodon
    • Gastrodon is Seismitoad's replacement this gen and besides less physical bulk and lack of Stealth Rock it does most things the same. The loss of Thousand Waves also kinda sucks but it can fit other moves fine
  • Magnezone
    • Magnet Pull being freed to start means Magnezone will be pretty strong, especially with the likes of Garchomp and Dragonite in the meta. We'll see if we decide Magnet Pull should stick around or not as the generation progresses.
  • Ursaring
    • With Extreme Speed free, Ursaring will probably return to the throne it once had in Gen 6 as one of the best Espeed users, this time with much less competition


we're the lost ones in the night
is a Tiering Contributor
  • With Extreme Speed free, Ursaring will probably return to the throne it once had in Gen 6 as one of the best Espeed users, this time with much less competition
ursaluna says hello. that mon looks sick. powerful, bulky af, almost the entire damn type chart as coverage, and shore up as healing. i see a sd set with espeed/eq and either facade or shore up (remind me what you even want coverage for again?). or you can just not run sd. that works too.


it would really be interesting to see what happens to chi-yu in the metagame where tyranitar gets longetivity. cant just slice off half its hp with ruination and wear down the rest, heh.

+2 252 SpA Chi-Yu Fiery Wrath vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 169-201 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Chi-Yu Fiery Wrath vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes (or, 100% after a torch step)

not looking too great for pex though. its one wrath flinch away from straight up dying if chi-yu nps or torch steps on the switch

actually that second me an idea...

252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fiery Wrath vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

heh. specs breaker cracking av pex with a neutral hit.

this fish gets psychic too

+2 252 SpA Chi-Yu Psychic vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 226-268 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

i mean...pex still lives and regens, but that is more than enough damage to ensure that if you can get chi-yu in position again quickly enough, pex won't be healthy enough for round 2.

252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Psychic vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 170-202 (55.9 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

i somehow doubt specs even need this. and i think specs sets would appreciate running willo on the moveslot freed by not running np anyway, to cripple ttar and ting-lu

252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Eruption (150 BP) vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 136-161 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

holy fucking shit

+2 252 SpA Chi-Yu Armor Cannon vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 145-171 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

holy fucking shit

its still not not breaking past ttar, especially with sand nerfing eruption power, but that damage output is obscene.

-1 252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Eruption (150 BP) vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 315-372 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Armor Cannon vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Krookodile: 252-297 (49 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

the fuck. so we already found a limit for what ting-lu can soft check, heh.

just like in standard play, there is really nothing that walls chi-yu aside from ttar. did i mention ttar is always at its absolute best when its checking something broken?

oh yeah, it can also randomly go tera ground steel or smth and fight ttar that way. even if it doesnt run terablast, it can tank a stone edge and just kill ttar after a bit of chip. tera retain your original stab boosts, remember?

Chi-Yu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Beads of Ruin
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Fiery Wrath
- Armor Cannon / Torch Step
- Torch Step / Will-O-Wisp / Taunt

Chi-Yu @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Fiery Wrath
- Eruption / Armor Cannon
- Armor Cannon / Torch Step
- Will-O-Wisp / Psychic

(might just skip eruption on specs because of all the hazards and sand around)

fish supremacy

i will say, although this fish is nigh-unwallable outside of ttar, it is frail and kinda not fast. it might (probably) stay, its a breaker that reaps fat teams when fat teams are gonna struggle this generation, but damn that breaking power is obscene)

(me after posting this first realizing flare doesnt exist, and then realizing that eruption on a np set with ttar around is downright strange, and then realizing armor cannon exist)
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drampa's grandpa

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Oh no he's back again :o

I bring hopefully corrected stats for the four... fiends or whatever they're called. The Dark type 580 bst quartet of legendary Chinese-themed mons.

Ting-Lu | Dark / Ground | Vessel of Ruin (Lowers opponent's SpA) | 155/110/125/55/80/45
Chien-Pao | Dark / Ice | Sword of Ruin (Lowers opponent's Def) | 80/120/80/90/65/135
Wo-Chien | Dark / Grass | Tablets of Ruin (Lowers opponent's Attack) | 85/85/100/95/135/70
Chi-Yu | Dark / Fire | Beads of Ruin (Lowers opponent's SpD) | 55/80/80/135/120/100

Everything I said above before I crossed it out pretty much seems to stand still, just a little less, but I'll say it again here for ease of reading.

Ting-Lu has absurd bulk. 155/125/80 is among the best we've ever seen, and it has an excellent ability that enhances its ability to boot, although as with all these abilities we've yet to see how to functions exactly. Its typing isn't terrible, making it a VoltBlocker as well as giving it a bevy of resists, but it comes with a bunch of weaknesses too, including to U-Turn alongside some prominent attacking types. It's better offensively but this is not an offensive Pokemon, despite its acceptable Attack stat.

Mix and Mega
Nothing I can think of off the top of my head. Why? Because it's primary Dark. If it was primary Ground it would be an awesome user of Altarianite to check both cover legendaries, and just be a great mon in general, or Aggronite to just be a fat Ground. As it is...

Ting-Lu @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Throat Chop / Payback
- Spikes
- Body Press
- Rest

This is probably the best set you'll get. Spike up against all those annoying Sablenite users and uh... that's pretty much it. Raw bulk is the only reason I can think of to use this over other Spikes users. Maybe someone better than me at MnM will come up with a better set :) (hint this is your cue). Sablenite could also be good just due to raw fat, or Venusaurite to make it less Ice weak.

In STABmons Ting-Lu gets Shore Up, Parting Shot and whatever STAB attacks the merciful council, praise be their name, sees fit to allow us.
But assuming the same moves as last gen banned...
EDIT: As I was typing this I got more info on what was banned / not in the game :o

Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def or SpD
Impish Nature or Careful Nature
- Shore Up
- Parting Shot / Spikes / Body Press
- Thousand Waves / Body Press
- Knock Off

This competes heavily with Tyranitar. Ting-Lu definitely has a niche though by being bulkier both physically and possibly specially (which is weird to say) and through its defensive Ground typing. Ting-Lu also gets Whirlwind but I don't see a place for it here.

Camomons has a big question for Ting-Lu. One which you're aphoristically never supposed to ask a woman. How much do you weigh? Because if it's enough for Heavy Slam to be good, it gets a lot of good typings to use from that one move.

Ting-Lu @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def or SpD
Impish Nature or Careful Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Body Press / Spikes
- Rest
- Whirlwind / Body Press / Spikes

if no Heavy Slam IDK what to run but this will still be a cool tank no matter what. Probably wayyyy too good for the metagame thanks to how bulky it is and its ability to give itself significantly fewer weaknesses than its original typin

Ting-Lu @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Facade / Throat Chop
- Earthquake / Throat Chop
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Protect

Ting-Lu seems like an awesome non-setupy Poison Heal user. HOWEVER Poison Heal (and Regenerator) are going to be in super high demand for every team, and with Single Ability Clause being used as UT said above, this means it will be competing heavily with a lot of other defensive superstars such as Iron Hands, Blissey, and Goodra-Hisui, who need the very best of tools to deal with the absurd offensive Pokemon we've been handed this generation.

Godly Gift
Use a really boring set but in the SpD slot of something fat so you get like excessive amounts of Special bulk. Do we have a god like this yet? I don't think so actually.

I have a funny feeling this won't last very long in the NFE metagame. Just a hint of an inkling of a shadow of a thought that its legality may be quickly called into question.
I'm going to be honest... I don't believe this Pokemon's stats. It doesn't match the other three, who all have a max stat of 135. This may be because it's in HP. I could be proven wrong, we'll see, but I would err on the side of them being wrong.
Chien-Pao is a Weavile clone with an ability that lowers the opponents Defense and higher Speed / bulk (still bad bulk but better). It learns Recover for some unknown reason and will use it in 0 metagames, not even Nature Swap. The Pokemon is terrifying and will likely end up banned from a number of OU based metagames due to its power and Speed, especially if its ability is passive rather than a one-off like Intimidate.

Interestingly Glacial Lance is still in the game while not being on either the initial banlist or the watchlist. I don't know if this is an oversight or not but I plan to abuse it on superior Weavile ^_^. Basically your standard SD HDB set with Glacial Lance, priority, and Knock Off. Nothing new, but easier to set up and nigh unwallable in the pre-home metagame. in the hills put Glacial Lance on your damn list. Even if this idiot gets banned Weavile still exists.

Its base ability might unironically be the best ability for it, but if that's the case I'm going to assume the ability gets banned as soon as we find out the mechanics. It cannot pull off Weavile's Technician set from last generation, losing out on the essential Triple Axel, but Adaptability is always an excellent option. It will actually be outdamaged by Technician Weavile here, but be much more reliable and have higher base Speed, so definitely don't throw it out.

This thing gains nothing from Camomons besides many checks and counters. It will be significantly worse there than anywhere else I'm mentioning, and while it may be able to use pure power to muscle through, it only really has Ice, Fighting, Dark, and Psychic coverage, (and I SUPPOSE Flying for Acrobatics fans) which makes it not nearly as difficult to prep for as elsewhere.

Combos I'd run in no particular order are:
Throat Chop / Icicle Crash, Acrobatics / Sacred Sword, Sacred Sword / Icicle Crash, Sacred Sword / Throat Chop

Mix and Mega
Metagrossite seems nice if Ice Spinner is good and Contact. Otherwise Lucarionite or no stone. Honestly depending on how good its ability is no stone might just always be the best option.
hahaha i suck
Fishy :D This thing seems viable in multiple metas, mostly because of its ability, but its stats are a little underwhelming. 100 Speed is just short of a lot of benchmarks. It's rather frail, especially physically. It doesn't lack for power though I will say that, and it has a good offensive typing (RIP in hitting Tyranitar thought).

I would have loved this thing so much more last generation. This generation we lost Blue Flare and Searing Shot, both of which would have been excellent on it. Lava Plume won't be bad as a main STAB, but it's not as good. A Stallbreaker set with Magma Storm/Nasty Plot/Taunt/Night Daze sounds awesome... until you remember stall won't exist. I'm not sure if that breaks Blissey or Chansey anyway but it sounds cool. As of now I think the set I would most like to run on Fiend Fire Fish is Specs Dual STAB Parting Shot Knock Off.

Outside of STABmons I don't see a huge Fish Niche. In AAA it loses its ability and other special wallbreakers can likely do its job better, with some potential for Adaptability or Magic Guard sets I guess. Same in Mix and Mega, except hazard danger is worse. It gains nothing from Camomons and bulky Fairies and Water-types are going to be nasty for it.

Some other new Pokemon: STAB Edition (GDI ITH I wanted to do this so I will even if you already did)
Flutter Mane 55/55/55/135/135/135 Ghost/Fairy - Protosynthesis
Notable Moves: Mystical Fire, Calm Mind, Psyshock, Power Gem, Thunder, Thunderbolt, Taunt
Specs with Fleur Cannon + Astral Barrage is going to be super nasty. Even if (when) Astral Barrage gets banned it'll be super nasty. The Speed tier is insane, being faster than Koko ever was while having few resists and an excellent SpA stat.

252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Fleur Cannon over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 316-374 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Misdreavus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 243-287 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And it's easily supportable on a team archetype by...

WHAT? That thing?!?
Well don't forget our broken new ability, Protosynthesis. It allows you to support Pokemon like Flutter Mane, Slither Wing, and Roaring Moon, as it boosts your highest stat by one in sun. And of course there's all the standard benefits to sun like V-Create hitting too hard, Chlorophyll, V-Creating stuff, Solar Beam charging quickly, and V-Create. Wait what do you mean V-Create is going to start restricted? Council is a bunch of killjoys, banning my broken move >:(

This won't last the month. The only way Dragapult isn't getting banned is if we're busy banning other stuff first. I said it before, I plan to enjoy Last Respects Dragapult considerably.

I've been waiting for WishTurn Alomomola an entire generation. It better not disappoint.

This has remarkably few counters. A simple bulky DD set sets up and sweeps most of the metagame. Remember your fake Weaviles week 1 and real Weaviles week 2!

Iron Hands has absurd bulk, a weird typing, and Swords Dance. Thanks to its 140 Attack this thing is a great tank with nice coverage and I wanna use it with like 6 moves.


we're the lost ones in the night
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I would have loved this thing so much more last generation. This generation we lost Blue Flare and Searing Shot, both of which would have been excellent on it. Lava Plume won't be bad as a main STAB, but it's not as good. A Stallbreaker set with Magma Storm/Nasty Plot/Taunt/Night Daze sounds awesome... until you remember stall won't exist. I'm not sure if that breaks Blissey or Chansey anyway but it sounds cool. As of now I think the set I would most like to run on Fiend Fire Fish is Specs Dual STAB Parting Shot Knock Off.
hello sir it appears that you like me have forgotten the existance of armor cannon aka special fire cc


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BDSP Circuit Champion
I noticed there hadn't been any significant post about NFE, so I am going to fix this! NFE looks very promising with overall less elements that seem outstandingly broken. In the following I'm going to consider teracristal is banned, because I have 0 faith of it being remotely balanced and so seem to think most players I've talked with. I am also expecting Arena Trap, Shadow Tag, and Baton Pass to stay banned.

The FE Pokemon that are now NFE
:bisharp: Even without Knock Off, Bisharp seems way too strong for NFE. It does have checks in Primeape and Crocalor, but I don't think those are enough, especially when the former looks to be pretty stupid itself. This is the equivalent of a box legendary in OU based metagames.
:primeape: Some great Fighting checks are in the game, namely Hattrem, Scyther, and Misdreavus, however Primeape gets Dark-coverage for them, U-turn to pivot, and has even a free slot to use the coverage it wants between a wide list ranging from Earthquake to Stone Edge, Gunk Shot, and Element Punches. It doesn't look outright broken as long as the very broken stay in the tier, but afterwards I think it will just warp the metagame around itself because of how good it is at everything you want an offensive Pokemon to do (deter Defog, wallbreak, pivot, revenge kill).
:ursaring: The ones that aren't OHKOed by Guts Facade are OHKOed by Guts Close Combat. Quick Feet don't seem even that bad given there hardly are any Pokemon faster than it, it is not Bisharp's level of brokeness, but I cannot believe it will survive the first ban slate.
:girafarig: Girafarig is the first of the previous FE that I don't believe will be broken. The stats are great, but not amazing, and the typing is quite bad. With so many Dark-types, I cannot see it perform that well, even if it got coverage for them in Thunderbolt and Dazzling Gleam. It got some good physical options, but it seems outclassed by Stantler in this role.
Girafarig @ Eviolite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Hyper Voice
- Thunderbolt
:stantler: I've seen some people say Stantler is just a bad Girafarig. I disagree with it, Stantler is much stronger with access to a better STAB move in Double-Edge on top of having a much higher Attack stat. It seems like it lost access to Sucker Punch, so it should not be too hard to revenge kill despite the great stats, especially since it seems to struggle a lot to break past Misdreavus and other Ghost-types. I believe this will be a solid breaker once Bisharp and Ursaring gets the boot.
Stantler @ Eviolite / No Item
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Thief
- Facade
:dunsparce: Like a lot of Pokemon fans, I've been waiting long for this Pokemon to be good in a format. Is this going to be the modern format where Dunsparce isn't dogwater? I think it is. Dunsparce is one of the few Pokemon that kept access to Roost and with that bulk, it will most likely be one of the most prominent wall. It even got some great utility thanks to Stealth Rock and the ability to spread paralysis with either Serene Grace Body Slam or Glare. I am a little worried that with smaller Toxic and Knock Off distribution, Coil sets will be a nightmare to break, but defensive sweepers always look more broken on paper than in practice. So let's hope it's not broken!
Dunsparce @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Stealth Rock / Coil
- Body Slam
- Bite / Earthquake

Previously NFE Ubers Pokemon
:scyther: This lost Dual Wingbeat, Knock Off, and Roost, but it still seems broken. The lack of Knock Off users mean it will most likely keep its boots the whole game be able to spam powerful U-turn and it even got a new toy in Close Combat to demolish Steel-, Normal-, and Rock-types. I'd say it is guaranteed to be banned within the first waves of bans just like Ursaring.
:sneasel: This is a mixed bag for me. Losing Knock Off is huge in balancing Sneasel as it means it cannot make as much progress as in SS. However, SV seems to lack decent Fighting-types since there is no Machoke, Monferno, nor Gurdurr, and Primeape seems like a ban to me, so it might be too strong. That said the introduction of new physically bulky checks like Crocalor, Naclstack, and Tinkatuff could be enough to avoid it the ban. Jett read this please and come back to NFE.
:magneton: This is still the same Pokemon as before and NFE still doesn't seem to have counterplay to it, there isn't even any Ground-Water types anymore kek. This will be quickbanned with Ursaring and Scyther.
:chansey: Chansey is a question mark for me. It still looks very hard to break despite the Soft-Boiled nerf and it lacking crucial moves like Teleport and Toxic. I would say it should be given a chance, but is probably too good for the tier.
:pawniard: The lack of Knock Off means it could stay, it's not making nearly as much progress as in SS and is just the balanced version of Bisharp.
:haunter: It got a counter in Naclstack! This Pokemon resists both its STAB and is immune to Will-O-Wisp. The introduction of more Normal- and Dark-types also mean Ghost moves are less free. That said, Haunter has a wide movepool and could always find ways to circumvent counterplay. Imo, Haunter will probably be perfectly balanced in SV NFE, but I wouldn't be surprised if it succeed to find a way to makes itself broken.
:pikachu: It doesn't have Extreme Speed and Knock Off anymore, so chances are it is not broken. The lack of good Electric resist is concerning that said, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is still too good.

Notorious new Pokemon
:tinkatuff: Tinkatuff is a Fairy-Steel type Pokemon with a 65/55/55/45/82/78 stat spread. Steel- and Fairy- are both incredible types to have, but Tinkatuff is also the sole noteworthy Steel-type bar Bisharp and Magneton, and the sole Fairy-type excluding Floette. It got great bulk to make good use of these key resistances. It also got some of the best support options an NFE Pokemon could dream of; it is one the few Pokemon still having access to Knock Off and it got Mold Breaker Stealth Rock to bypass Hattrem. The only downsides to it are its lack of recovery and its quite low offensive stats.
Tinkatuff @ Eviolite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe -> i can see it running more Speed based on the meta.
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
- Iron Head / Foul Play
:naclstack: Naclstack is a pure Rock-type Pokemon with a 60/60/100/35/65/35 stat spread. What makes it unique is its signature ability that gives it a Ghost resistance and an immunity to status moves, meaning it will be able to disrupt Ghost-types like Misdreavus and Haunter. With access to Stealth Rock and Recover, it seems perfectly fit for a supportive role, checking physical attackers like Sneasel and Stantler.
Naclstack @ Eviolite
Ability: Purifying Salt
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD -> i can imagine it running more SpD to act as a better Ghost-check
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Body Press
- Rock Blast / Salt Cure
:crocalor: Crocalor is a pure Fire-type Pokemon with a 81/55/78/90/58/49 stat spread. Not only is it very bulky, but its hidden ability is Unaware and it got reliable recovery, meaning it will be able to perform as a solid wall. It is so bulky that i doesn't even need Eviolite and probably should run Heavy-Duty Boots. NFE never had a viable Unaware Pokemon, that I'm looking forward how it performs. If Chansey and it remain legal, we could even see some NFE stall teams.
Crocalor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Body Slam / Encore





(only viable Sticky Web setter)
Floette (only good Fairy-type excluding Tinkatuff)
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is a Tiering Contributor
long post on new moves. im going to be switching perspectives a lot, from stab to bh to ndbh. try to follow along, or dont, and just read the move descriptions if thats all you care about. the kind of coverage gf introduced this generation is very interesting, to say the least.

dire claw: poison type physical move with 80 bp and 50% combined chance to para sleep or poison
in stab this looks really obnoxious on poisons. abusers? euhh we got the pex and clodsire, who would love this move to be hella annoying. i can see this replacing fang, but maybe not? we'll see. in bh looks the same if not better but do we have the abusers? i dont think so tbh.

psyshield bash: psychic type physical move, 70 bp, boost your def, 90% accu
lame, largely because fat psychics are lame. scream tail may use it?

stone ax: rock type physical move that set stealth rocks, 65 bp 90% accu, cut move
ttar is loving this. not sure what other abusers. the pure rock type? the rock/poison corrosion guy? idk. bypassing taunt is always neat tho. in bh if hazards are viable this can easily replace rocks entirely.

mystical power: psychic type special move, 70 bp, boost your spa, 90% accu
i d k

raging fury: fire-type outrage
lol pyro ball exist

wave crash: water-type double edge
lol surging strikes exist. mglo guys maybe? someone tell me what actually gets this before i start thinking about it in aaa. funny fish move is better in ndbh, surging strikes is better in sv.

chloroblast: grass-type steel beam with 150 bp / grass-type mind blown with 95% accu
heehoo mglo guys in ndbh gets a pogre-canceling button. good move. good abusers? idk. i think this will see usage in ndbh because grass is actually valuable there to hit pogre/waterceus/etc. maybe in sv bh too with ting-lu arc formes dodonzo and palafin-h running around?

mountain gale: ice type physical move, 100 bp, 80% accu, 30% flinch
use this when lance gets banned ig

victory dance: physical quiver dance, fighting-type
yes. we have fat physical ph abusers in bh now babyyy. obviously will see lots of use in stab, might probably even displace no retreat since you can boost multiple times.

headlong rush: ground type close combat
goated. will get banned in stab like blades last gen if it wasnt for the fact that a bunch of abusers are gone. not to mention the two strongest new guys, great tusk and ursaluna, already get this naturally. can chomp break this move alone? we'll see. in bh i expect this to be the blades replacement, possibly even after blades returns if it does, especially if youre tea guzzler. such a good move.

barb barrage: poison type physical move, 60 bp, 50% chance to poison, double power if target is poisoned
the 50% chance to poison is probably why you would run this, and you hit hella hard when you hit a procced target. but this has some serious competition in dire claw and poison fang.

bitter malice: ghost type special move, 75 bp, 100% chance to drop target's atk
if astral gets the hammer ghosts might actually run this and take the 5 bp cut from sball. idk i dont main stab. in bh obviously worthless.

ceaseless edge: dark type physical move, 65 bp, sets spikes, cut move, 90% accu
fucking yes. ttar also gets this move for hazards what the hell. not to mention ting-lu can run this so easily. in bh again i see this displacing spikes. fc lunala is crying in a corner rn. (hold on neither lunala nor gigas exist)

lunar blessing: psychic-type jungle healing clone
meh. it also heals your ally in doubles but i play singles so i dont care.

infernal parade: ghost-type hex with only 60 bp but comes with a 30% chance to burn
this may replace hex on ghost fatmons in bh? not sure what will use this in stab. lunala would have loved this.

bleakwind storm: flying-type special move, 100 bp, 80% accu, 30% to drop speed, wind move, only 5 pp
only gets a mention because aero/owing are axed. ngl this doesnt look bad. hurricane is 10 more bp 10% less accu and a shitload more pp but the visual difference between 80 and 70 is enough for me. you will still lose games to misses tho.

the other storm moves are outclassed. springtide by moonblast, sandsear by ep (20% burn and a bit of power is not worth 80% accu and a lot less pp), wildbolt by electro drift

take heart: calm mind+refresh, unknown type and pp and all that
looks nice in stab if it wasnt for the complete lack of fat psychics that appeals to me. looks pretty sweet in bh tho if you dont care for the speed boost from qd.

silk trap: king's shield clone that lowers speed instead, bug-type
the other protect clones are better. im sure this will see use on at least one niche funny set in bh tho.

axe kick: 120 bp hjk with a 30% chance of confusion
uhhhhh is the 30% confusion worth it? regardless youre not running this on anywhere except mglo. not when close combat/collision course/low kic/tkick/combat torque exist. you can run this on sflo sets that wants the power over combat torque

last respects: 50 bp physical ghost move, +50 bp for each ally fainted
this just sounds stupid. ghost is a broken type and this is quite an insane cleaning tool. even with one teammate down youre already at 100 bp, 2 down is fucking 150. really think this one is borked. and we even got le pult to abuse it.

lumina crash: 80 bp special psychic move, 100% to drop targets sdef by 2 stages
damn. if only psychic isn't such a lame type.

order up: 80 bp physical dragon move, boosts stat based on tatsugiri form (yellow is +spe, orange is +atk, red is +def)
not sure how this interacts outside of tatsugiri forms. dodonzo/giri combos look kinda nice with this move tbh, if it wasnt busy running fat sets or glaive rush. even then order up can see use there.

jet punch: 60 bp aqua jet
its just aqua jet but better. water types now get to abuse this as well. ashgren is vibing in natdex. palafin is looking pretty sweet as well. oh yeah, did i mention palafin gets this naturally?

spin out: 100 bp physical steel move, 100% lowers targets speed by 2 stages
steel gets another nice move with no competition to boot now that sunsteel is gone. kartana would love this, cleanly slicing faster fat dragons without breaking a sweat - although it will still be running sunsteel anyway, heh. lets see what happens in nd with all the busted speed tiers.

edit: i missed ice spinner lol
ice spinner: 80 bp physical ice move, destroys terrain
uhh when lance gets banned in stab its the power vs accuracy argument against mountain gale again. good move tho, but defo not amazing.

population bomb: 20 bp multihit physical normal move, can hit up to 10 times.
skill link finally has a reason to exist. actually oh my god what the fuck is this. 200 bp with skill link is fucking nuts. is bone rush in? i can totally see ursaluna abusing the shit out of this in staaab/bh. outside of luna, its not like skill link has horrible moves in bh either - icicle spear is 5 more bp than lance and has 48 pp to lance's 8, and bullet seed is there to smack ting-lu/dodonzo/palafin/waterceus. of course lets see what loaded dice make this thing's actual odds be, you might not even need skill link then. -ate loaded dice population bomb can potentially break the game.

glaive rush: 120 bp physical dragon move, attacks from opposing mons next turn deals 2x damage and cant miss
oh wow i have no idea what to think of this. on the one hand, 120 bp 100% accu dragon move. on the other hand, that secondary effect is just mean. will people just run darts instead? will they just use this and try to tank it out or trade kills? we'll see.

revival blessing: revives teammate at 50% hp, only 1 pp, normal-type
. ... ... . . .. ... .. .. ... .. .... ....... WHAT THE FUCK. revival is obviously completely totally nuts. might (WILL) get banned, especially in bh. even in stab too, im sure ursaluna can make room for this move. its not even hwish either, the user doesnt faint. so all it takes is one moveslot to give one of your mons a second life. completely, totally nuts.

salt cure: salt cures target, deals damage every turn. steel or water more strongly affected, they take 1/5 every turn. rock-type, physical, 40 bp
i d k

triple dive: 30 bp physical water move, hits thrice, 95% accu
surging strikes better.

mortal spin: 30 bp poison type move, spins everything rapid spin would, no speed boost but guarentees poisons target
so good. SO GOOD. finally a non-normal rapid spin. it gets blocked by steel but who cares, you guarenteed poison everything else. fuck poison fang on av pex and cloddy, fuck dire claw and barb barrage. use this. of course poison heal abusers could care less about the second part in bh. i may very well be overhyping this. i may also find out that it is a pain in the ass to play against in a few month's time.

fillet away: normal-type shell smash that takes hp instead of defenses.

kowtow cleave: 85 bp dark physical move, cannot miss
wicked blow. knock off.

flower trick: 70 bp grass-type physical move, 100% crit (effective 105 bp)
nice. will it be worth using over grav apple or power whip? we'll find out.

torch song: fiery dance but fucking guarenteed spa boost
instead of buffing fiery dance they give a clone that is literally just better. this makes me want to kick something.

ANYWAY with flare out this looks like one of the big offensive fire moves, the others being armor cannon, magma storm, and obviously eruption. how will it stack up? given how well lash/tkick did previously id give good odds that it will do well. we'll find out. (my ph xern will still run lava plume)

aqua step: 80 bp physical water move with 100% chance to boost spe
uhh sure. some sweeper can use this. i have a feeling crash/strikes will still be used more with jet punch to shore up speed.

raging bull: 90 bp physical normal type move, breaks screens, change type based on tauros form
i assume its just a 90 bp normal brick break if not used on tauros, so meh. lets see how well tauros does.

make it rain: 120 bp steel type special move, -1 user's spa
steel type finally get a good special move lets go? even at -1 its still as strong as flash cannon. and special attackers in bh gets a stronger option to hit fairies, nice. stab...ig the original user can use it to chunk ttar. and zoner too when he returns, i doubt zoner will be good tho.

ruination: dark-type nature's madness
ok, i guess ttar and ting-lu can use this? idk tbh, madness/superfang have never been amazing.

collision course: 100 bp physical fighting move, stronger if hits se.
we dont know what exactly is the se multiplier yet. will this get used over tkick in bh? probably, if youre using this as non-stab youre looking for se hits anyway. in stab, maybe it will see use after tkick gets banned?

electro drift: 100 bp special electric move, stronger if it hits se
niiice finally after 8 generations we get a strong reliable special electric move. ndbh special attackers can finally land some juicy hits on hooh and pogre without going mixed. the strongest user of this move will still be miraidon itself, obviously. damn miraidon looks so good. what is wrong with me when i see this generation's covers and think first "oh nice they can be poison heal abusers"

shed tail: creates sub at the cost of 50% hp, then pivots out and passes sub. normal-type
ban tbh. subpass is a bit too good in one move. bh shed tail users can just run regen and make the hp loss minimal, while stab...uhh who actually gets this in stab? might still be banworthy either way.

chilling reception: pivoting move that sets snow. ice-type
bro/king are probably going to use it the most anyway. with the snow buff this gen it looks pretty sweet for hail teams. atales also get a free pivoting move.

tidy up: normal-type dragon dance that also removes hazards and sub
oi. fatmons get to abuse this in bh. in stab i think ursaluna can if it wasnt too busy running sd and winning games. tidy up is still a super good alternative tho, you outspeed faster fatmons after a boost.

hyper drill: 100 bp normal type physical move, bypasses protect
ursaluna will be too busy breaking shit with facade/espeed to bother with this. in bh it will also probably just run ph facade and pretend to be a regigigas. tbh population bomb/espeed just give it too much competition.

rage fist: ghost type physical move, 50 bp, +50 bp per getting hit by attack. stacks over turns, multihit procs multiple times
weird move on weird sets probably

edit: apparently the boosts stack through switching. if that is true this thing is gonna get fucking banned lmao. take mamp's regenvest ghostceus set next page, for instance. you easily take a hit or two (what are they supposed to do, not attack you?) and all the sudden you have an absolutely nuclear ghost-type move that can obliterate everything. think of it as last respects with much easier-to-achieve conditions but can compromise the user a little. even with bh being so offensive at the beginning rn something like that ghostceus can still take a hit or two. and one hit you're already at 100 bp, 2 is 150 which is already insane, 3 is 200 which is obscene, and then it just gets higher and higher and higher...

easy ban in stab obviously.

im kinda doubtful that this is how it works tho. stacking thru switching is so unlike anything before (pp/status/forme) aside. but ig now that isword/dshield only triggering once per battle ig gf is perfectly capable of doing this. and its not like they never made other stupid shit now or before.

armor cannon: special fire-type cc
with flare gone this is going to be the go-to offensive special fire coverage. and it cant miss unlike flare. i love this so much and so does my little flaming goldfish.

bitter blade: fire-type leech life
more triage cheese on the bh ladder, yay. we welcome triage m-chicken to the family in ndbh. this is by far the best triage coverage move in the game. outside of that though, you have pyro vc and lash. use exclusively on triage.

double shock: 120 bp physical electric move, removes user's electric type (no it is not multihit)
obviously very sad on stab electric attackers. HOWEVER unlike burn up this says nothing about failing if youre not electric, so what do we have here...pretty much a less fancy but more reliable bolt strike? electric coverage is looking so pretty this generation now. kyogre and ho-oh are quivering in their vests/boots in natdex.

gigaton hammer: 160 bp physical steel move, cannot be used twice in a row
my god, what is this. fairies can go suck a turnip. fortunately this move dissuades choice band, but...uhh who cares you do five billion percent anyway with banded steelworker. kartana is gone tho, cant wait for it to come back. also cant wait for ladder to use it in natdex. as coverage, this pretty much erase any fairy from the plane of existance. nuts.

comeuppance: dark-type metal burst
ting-lu can abuse it with its massive hp and low speed. otherwise, it just looks like a metal burst clone.

aqua cutter: water type slash clone. blade move
sharpness abusers can use this depending on the exact boost? 99% outclassed by other water moves

blazing torque: 80 bp physical fire move, 30% burn
so physical lava plume. ok. only has 10 pp tho, so you'll still probably want sacred fire over this - when sacred fire returns of course. as of right now, its still outclassed offensively by pyro vc and lash.

wicked torque: 80 bp physical dark move, 10% sleep

noxious torque: 100 bp physical poison move, 30% poison
looks nice and strong. competes with dire claw a bit but its got better power and still good proc rate. now to find the abusers.

combat torque: 100 bp physical fighting move, 30% paralysis
sweet. fighting is oversaturated with powerful physical moves, but perhaps this will still find its place somewhere. not sure where tho, but the 30% paralysis is hella nice. it looks pretty appealing if it can get past the impressive competition. on most other types it would be an instant horray, but fighting....youre looking at cc/low kick/tkick/ax kick/collision course/hjk as competition, buddy. i personally think its on the higher end of that list, we'll see.

magical torque: 100 bp physical fairy move, 30% confuse
A GOOD PHYSICAL FAIRY MOVE LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOO. i expect it to be on all kinds of physical attackers in bh..but lance exist too. eh, fairy is still a broken type. not to mention xerneas can run physical vdance ph sets too now. my god. in stab i dont see good abusers except...uhh...iron valiant. valiant is literally enjoying life rn.

also, lance got nerfed to 120 power, which is still broken. wicked got nerfed to 75 bp (effective 112.5), probably still broken. glide got nerfed to 60 bp, probably still good in aaa especially with zarude getting swords dance.

strength sap keeps 10 pp btw while all the other 50% recoveries get the big nerf. between that and all the funny new moves i expect sv bh to be heavily offensive, especially with tera around.
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