Gen III Battle Frontier Discussion and Records

[QuentinQuonce]

Looking forward to the results! This streak is already a big achievement. So if I understand correctly, there's never really a reason to partner up with another trainer than your 'Swap friend', right?

Yes and no. Part of what makes Multi fun for me is the unpredictability of which partner I'll get. I'd rather not be using the same partner all the time if I had any other choice. But so few Pokemon (at least, Pokemon that are suitable as partners) have 4 offensive moves, and the AI has a tendency to prioritise the use of status moves, which wastes turns and gives the opponent team more chance to gain momentum.

So it's not that there's never a reason to pick a Frontier-generated Trainer (most of the Dragon Tamers, Experts, and Gentlemen usually have very good picks) but that my partner is usually the best option in the room. While there's a good number of trainers to pick from, at some point the random number generator will screw you over and you'll be looking at a room full of sub-standard partners.

I guess we'll have to think about optimizing the sub-par AI to do what we want most of the time. Probably it's just attacking, like with Aero and Latias. Earthquake + Immunity is definitely the simplest combo that the AI understands.

It is, and this is what I built my team around. I've been quite lucky in that my partner more often than not has had Latias up first and Aerodactyl second; Tauros and Latias combo better and Aerodactyl often doesn't choose the right move because the AI is reluctant to use Earthquake when partnered with Tauros (unless it can absolutely get a guaranteed KO), which can be problematic against Regi and Metagross leads.

The AI double battle engine understands more strategies, though; it can Toxic your Guts Pokémon, Skill Swap your Slaking or power you up with Flash Fire. Wouldn't it be interesting to let the suboptimal AI boost our 'smart' Pokémon, letting them do something effective guaranteed? Here's some wild ideas, some more serious than others, but all can be used alongside an AI player:

• Use Slaking and have a Skill-swapping partner Gengar. If you use EQ with Slaking you KO the Gengar, preventing losing momentum. Another EQ-immune Pokémon (that might also use EQ alongside Levitate Slaking) is probably the best filler;
• Have a partner Clefable or Togetic (or BOTH!) that ONLY know(s) Follow Me, then you know for sure the partner will just act like a punching bag, like you want it to;
• Letting your 'dumb' partner use (CB) Hyper Beam with something like Slaking and Roar them out in the same turn, or attack with your own Pokémon as well (Zapdos and Latios are good for this). This is known as Hyper Roar;
• A Crobat partner with Toxic, HP Fire and Haze has the speed and ability to power up Flash Fire, activate Guts and Haze away Overheat SpA falls. Cool to use alongside Houndoom, Arcanine, Ursaring, Machamp, Heracross and Swellow, for example.
• Having the partner use only Explosion and Earthquake while you have immunes like Gengar, although the AI will probably Explode at the worst times. Dusclops with Protect, Shadow Ball, EQ and Imprison (for example) as a lead, and special sweeper Haze Gengar (for example a set as on the Haymaker team) as backup. Possibly Substitute. Other Explosion strategies, such as a Foresight Aerodactyl lead with CB Gengar come to mind. This particular combo is good because Rock/Steels fall to an Aero Earthquake + Gengar's damage, Ghost-types can't block Explosion anymore, and Gengar can put Aerodactyl in Liechi berry range, for example. All in one turn, and it doesn't matter THAT much what the opponent brings (ofc there are still problematic Pokémon, such as Cradily, Armaldo, Shuckle and Skarmory but generally they're too passive to really pose a threat anyway).
• (More to add??)

All good ideas (I've pondered an all-Intimidate squad as well as potentially a weather team). All-offense has worked very well for me, but there's such a small handful of mons who are really good at it (and crucially, who work well together).

However (and it's a *big* however) I'm leery of giving the AI too much free rein. As I mentioned above regarding defensive moves, the AI often doesn't have the best instincts and it is very dangerous to assume that it will do what you want it to. You see this sort of thing with opponents who will use Counter/Mirror Coat even when they have no realistic prospect of surviving a move. Even if they do it right, it's still not a guarantee. What happens if, for instance, my AI partner uses Swagger on me (because I'm carrying a Lum Berry) but then I get frozen? Not a hypothetical: that happened and I lost.

So having partners with nothing but offensive moves drastically improves the chance that they'll be helpful. Even then it isn't completely foolproof. Let's say it's my Tauros and partner's Latias against a Dragonite and a Flygon. Tauros can easily KO Flygon with Double-Edge but it's not 100% that it'll KO Dragonite. Not to worry; Tauros can take care of Flygon and Latias can take care of Dragonite. But my partner Latias will Ice Beam either of them randomly. That sort of thinking has to be factored in. Generally, I look at the two opponent leads and evaluate which of them is the most dangerous, and which one I can cope with being out on the field for a couple of turns. After numerous tries, I've gotten pretty good at judging what the AI partner will do most of the time. But it's never definite.

 

[Actaeon]

Yes and no. Part of what makes Multi fun for me is the unpredictability of which partner I'll get. I'd rather not be using the same partner all the time if I had any other choice. But so few Pokemon (at least, Pokemon that are suitable as partners) have 4 offensive moves, and the AI has a tendency to prioritise the use of status moves, which wastes turns and gives the opponent team more chance to gain momentum.

So it's not that there's never a reason to pick a Frontier-generated Trainer (most of the Dragon Tamers, Experts, and Gentlemen usually have very good picks) but that my partner is usually the best option in the room. While there's a good number of trainers to pick from, at some point the random number generator will screw you over and you'll be looking at a room full of sub-standard partners.



It is, and this is what I built my team around. I've been quite lucky in that my partner more often than not has had Latias up first and Aerodactyl second; Tauros and Latias combo better and Aerodactyl often doesn't choose the right move because the AI is reluctant to use Earthquake when partnered with Tauros (unless it can absolutely get a guaranteed KO), which can be problematic against Regi and Metagross leads.



All good ideas (I've pondered an all-Intimidate squad as well as potentially a weather team). All-offense has worked very well for me, but there's such a small handful of mons who are really good at it (and crucially, who work well together).

However (and it's a *big* however) I'm leery of giving the AI too much free rein. As I mentioned above regarding defensive moves, the AI often doesn't have the best instincts and it is very dangerous to assume that it will do what you want it to. You see this sort of thing with opponents who will use Counter/Mirror Coat even when they have no realistic prospect of surviving a move. Even if they do it right, it's still not a guarantee. What happens if, for instance, my AI partner uses Swagger on me (because I'm carrying a Lum Berry) but then I get frozen? Not a hypothetical: that happened and I lost.

So having partners with nothing but offensive moves drastically improves the chance that they'll be helpful. Even then it isn't completely foolproof. Let's say it's my Tauros and partner's Latias against a Dragonite and a Flygon. Tauros can easily KO Flygon with Double-Edge but it's not 100% that it'll KO Dragonite. Not to worry; Tauros can take care of Flygon and Latias can take care of Dragonite. But my partner Latias will Ice Beam either of them randomly. That sort of thinking has to be factored in. Generally, I look at the two opponent leads and evaluate which of them is the most dangerous, and which one I can cope with being out on the field for a couple of turns. After numerous tries, I've gotten pretty good at judging what the AI partner will do most of the time. But it's never definite.

I see what you mean, good example with the flygon opponent. But in theory, the best possible team would be one you create for yourself right? I get that it's more fun to vary between partners, of course.

The practice with offensive mons is valuable, but I was interesting in creating a strategy that totally factors out AI, e.g. by having one move Follow Me or Explosion, etc, being as effective as possible while you do the 'thinking' with the Pokemon you control. Do you think such a strat would be viable?

E.g. for a Follow Me team, Gyara (and to a lesser extent Mence b/c of Blizzard) are good leads (Intimidate lets Clefable invest more in Special bulk, it's awesome).

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I see what you mean, good example with the flygon opponent. But in theory, the best possible team would be one you create for yourself right? I get that it's more fun to vary between partners, of course.

The practice with offensive mons is valuable, but I was interesting in creating a strategy that totally factors out AI, e.g. by having one move Follow Me or Explosion, etc, being as effective as possible while you do the 'thinking' with the Pokemon you control. Do you think such a strat would be viable?

E.g. for a Follow Me team, Gyara (and to a lesser extent Mence b/c of Blizzard) are good leads (Intimidate lets Clefable invest more in Special bulk, it's awesome).

Yeah, for sure the most optimal team is a designed one. Though I'm thinking of giving the Multi modes in gen IV and V a try after I finish with this one as those are the generations where it's absolutely not possible to do that.

I think the only way this could work is if the partner lead was designed to either tear through the opponent team or cripple them while your team sets up. Follow Me with Gyarados + Clefable leads does sound like it could be viable, perhaps with Clefable utilising Charm/Icy Wind to hobble the foe team. Though again I wonder how much Clefable could be relied upon to always use Follow Me over its other moves (unless that was its only move? that's possible). Since the order of the AI team is random, Togetic has to be included as well unless the other team member has a completely different strategy.

On another note, perhaps a Lightningrod team similar to the one I've been playing around with might work well - Marowak protects or attacks, Gyarados boosts and sweeps. It'd be interesting to see how this could work as a sufficiently bulky Gyarados is almost impossible to KO and with a single Dragon Dance it's capable of some serious damage. I think you'd have to run Marowak as a bulky attacker - Perish Song would be much riskier given there's less room for switching in this format and I would not trust the AI with it - though it also gets Growl, Screech, Icy Wind, and even Sing to soften up the opposition.

You don't necessarily have to be the attacking partner, though - being the supporting half of the team means that you'd do the strategy right. You'd have to rely on the AI partner to get the job done though, which I can see being nail-biting. I'm not sure how the AI in Emerald regards Hidden Power since no one uses it.

I can see why this isn't a popular mode, though!

 

[Actaeon]

Yeah 'mono Follow Me' is the team I had in mind. I did sime testing with DD Gyara and DDMence alongside Togetic and Clefable, and while bulky Gyara is guaranteed to setup, Mence actually seems to perform better because +2 EQ OHKO's more stuff (especially with Soft Sand, which is probably the best item for both of them), and AA is great (while Gyarados runs HP Rock/EQ/DE for coverage). Literally the only thing this format provides in favor of the Double Battles category is that you can run two of the same item this way: two Lum Berries for Clefable and Gyara, Soft Sand for Mence and a filler item for Togetic. Marowak could be used too as a lead, if they have Togetic first for example.

Another strategy that might be worth considering is using 'mono Destiny Bond'; then the partners potentially take 2 opponents with them and you can sweep or even explode to get the advantage. For example, if you use Gengar and the AI partner uses Haunter, I think the opposing AI attacks Haunter because of higher damage output.

Perish Song can be used alongside a Soundproof Mr. Mime, maybe?

Anyway, single-attack Pokemon could be close to optimal I guess. I'm going to do some testing, and I like to think along about this format!

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Yeah 'mono Follow Me' is the team I had in mind. I did sime testing with DD Gyara and DDMence alongside Togetic and Clefable, and while bulky Gyara is guaranteed to setup, Mence actually seems to perform better because +2 EQ OHKO's more stuff (especially with Soft Sand, which is probably the best item for both of them), and AA is great (while Gyarados runs HP Rock/EQ/DE for coverage). Literally the only thing this format provides in favor of the Double Battles category is that you can run two of the same item this way: two Lum Berries for Clefable and Gyara, Soft Sand for Mence and a filler item for Togetic. Marowak could be used too as a lead, if they have Togetic first for example.

Another strategy that might be worth considering is using 'mono Destiny Bond'; then the partners potentially take 2 opponents with them and you can sweep or even explode to get the advantage. For example, if you use Gengar and the AI partner uses Haunter, I think the opposing AI attacks Haunter because of higher damage output.

Perish Song can be used alongside a Soundproof Mr. Mime, maybe?

Anyway, single-attack Pokemon could be close to optimal I guess. I'm going to do some testing, and I like to think along about this format!

I look forward to seeing the results!

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Sadly, my Multi streak has come to an end. I finished on 270 wins, which if nothing else is a nice round number and thus quite aesthetically pleasing.

The losing match opened with Tauros & Latias against Whiscash and Ursaring. I stupidly chose the wrong target and dropped Ursaring with Double-Edge which was a mistake as Whiscash promptly got off a critical hit Ice Beam on Latias, who used Psychic on the opposing Gardevoir that came out for next to nothing. Next turn, Whiscash's Quick Claw activated and it KO'd Tauros with Fissure while Gardevoir survived my side's Ice Beam and finished off my partner's Latias.

Latios and Aerodactyl come out, and Whiscash gets another Quick Claw activation and does about 70% to Aerodactyl as it Earthquakes, killing Gardevoir and getting Whiscash into KO range for Latios. And out comes... Blissey, and my heart sinks. If it's the Ice Beam or Blizzard variant, it will beat Aerodactyl and Latios obviously can't touch it. And... it is. Blissey takes 50% from Earthquake, is barely scratched by Psychic, drops Aerodactyl with Ice Beam, then heals up and spends the next few turns using Calm Mind before smashing Latios with a beefed-up Ice Beam.

It's always got to be a damn Quick Claw OHKO move in this place, hasn't it?

Well, I had a good run, and I lasted far longer than I probably deserved to. It's been very fun, and I'm happy to have set a new record - I hope I've inspired others to try this mode out. I'm certain I'll return for another go someday.

 

[Actaeon]

Sadly, my Multi streak has come to an end. I finished on 270 wins, which if nothing else is a nice round number and thus quite aesthetically pleasing.

The losing match opened with Tauros & Latios against Whiscash and Ursaring. I stupidly chose the wrong target and dropped Ursaring with Double-Edge which was a mistake as Whiscash promptly got off a critical hit Ice Beam on Latias, who used Psychic on the opposing Gardevoir that came out for next to nothing. Next turn, Whiscash's Quick Claw activated and it KO'd Tauros with Fissure while Gardevoir survived my side's Ice Beam and finished off my partner's Latias.

Latios and Aerodactyl come out, and Whiscash gets another Quick Claw activation and does about 70% to Aerodactyl as it Earthquakes, killing Gardevoir and getting Whiscash into KO range for Latios. And out comes... Blissey, and my heart sinks. If it's the Ice Beam or Blizzard variant, it will beat Aerodactyl and Latios obviously can't touch it. And... it is. Blissey takes 50% from Earthquake, is barely scratched by Psychic, drops Aerodactyl with Ice Beam, then heals up and spends the next few turns using Calm Mind before smashing Latios with a beefed-up Ice Beam.

It's always got to be a damn Quick Claw OHKO move in this place, hasn't it?

Well, I had a good run, and I lasted far longer than I probably deserved to. It's been very fun, and I'm happy to have set a new record - I hope I've inspired others to try this mode out. I'm certain I'll return for another go someday.

That's unfortunate, 270 is a very high streak in this format. I guess Whiscash and Ursaring are both high-priority targets because of Quick Claw.
On my own haymaker (non-multi) team I really want my Latios to outspeed my Tauros, mainly to reduce recoil damage. If Latios KO's an opponent and then the next gets Double-Edged for high damage, I don't care so much about the recoil since they will not attack that turn anyway. Maybe this could improve the multi team as well?

 

[QuentinQuonce]

That's unfortunate, 270 is a very high streak in this format. I guess Whiscash and Ursaring are both high-priority targets because of Quick Claw.
On my own haymaker (non-multi) team I really want my Latios to outspeed my Tauros, mainly to reduce recoil damage. If Latios KO's an opponent and then the next gets Double-Edged for high damage, I don't care so much about the recoil since they will not attack that turn anyway. Maybe this could improve the multi team as well?

Quite possibly! I was advised to go with Modest by someone years ago and never really thought about changing it, though since I've been playing around in the Orre Colosseum I do have a perfectly good Timid Latios I can use (Orre Colosseum requires a lot more speed than the Frontier).

 

[N1c69]

Amazing streak and such an unfortunate loss. Both of those pokemon are a nightmare to deal with (I used to use Herracross until Ursurang quick claw aerial aced which was frustrating since 90% of the time Herracross is a perfect check).

I've been theorymoning a defensive Tauros set with the idea of minimising the risk of getting QC critted, or QC OHKO'd in mind:

Impish or adamant, max speed with HP and Def investment
Lum berry or lefties
-Return/double edge
-Toxic/EQ/hp ghost/hp steal (for aerodactlyl)
-Double team
-Protect/rest/sub
I am yet to do calcs, but have used this in tower and found it has potential. Tauros can 1HKO a lot of pokemon with Double Edge or Return or EQ right? How many of those pokemon can it 2HKO with less attack investment and more defense? Intimidate and defense investment make Tauros very bulky while max speed would keep it at the speed tier most adamant variants would use. Toxic, Double team, protect are great for stalling, but what is even better is that you don't necessarily need to stall each pokemon with toxic; a lot of them you can 2HKO while they fail to hit or OHKO Tauros. I personally like using rest with this set as random status is problematic and it lets Tauros act as a status absorber which can aid the rest of the team.
I've paired this set with pokemon like hardy Zapdos (deals with water types, supports with Twave), Latios, timid Meganium (supports with leech seed, and deals with some water types), Dusclops (great fight switch, pressure and will-o-wisp support), bold Grumpig running 115 speed to outspeed some metagross (a well rounded psychic mon with two good abilities that can set up, use psych up, trick, seismic toss). These were really just pokemon I had and I'm sure there are lots of teams this would fit with.

I've taken this approach with Salamence. My defensive Salamence runs no speed investment, max attack, and hp and defense investment. The idea behind this is that Salamence can nearly out speed everything after a DD, but still runs the risk of being QC'd or critted by something like Metagross. That was the set that won me gold in Palace.

I've also considered using Pidgeot as a lead, making use moves like feather dance, sand-attack, whirl wind, along with decent stats. For the most part, Linoon would do this better, but the niche Pidgeot may have is whirl-winding the opponents pokemon if it has clear body or is generally a bad mon to set up on.

I'm breeding a Kecleon atm for a few ideas. Moves like trick are very useful, especially in with colour change (i.e. water moves etc.). Slash and fishing for crits is another idea. Crits would help Kecleon break through walls, and pokemon that set up. Lucky crits also sometimes make key threats much easier to deal with. If the opponent can get the most bs crits, should we not exploit them too? Zangoose could fish for crits well too and does more damamge but has less bulk which fishing for crits would require. Salamence may be an excellent fisher. It learns focus energy, can hold scope lens or lansat berry, and can spam stab aerial ace which helps with evasion users and defense boosters. I still don't know whether this would be worth though since you only have a chance or scoring a crit, while DD is guaranteed to make your next move stronger. Maybe even DD and increased crit ratio could work?

Anyway, those were just some sets I've been working on. Hopefully they help with other's streak or inspire new ways of teambuilding. I've completely changed the way I team build after reading this forum and am always on the lookout for teams that can win streaks fast but aren't too susceptible to bs.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Amazing streak and such an unfortunate loss. Both of those pokemon are a nightmare to deal with (I used to use Herracross until Ursurang quick claw aerial aced which was frustrating since 90% of the time Herracross is a perfect check).

I've been theorymoning a defensive Tauros set with the idea of minimising the risk of getting QC critted, or QC OHKO'd in mind:

Impish or adamant, max speed with HP and Def investment
Lum berry or lefties
-Return/double edge
-Toxic/EQ/hp ghost/hp steal (for aerodactlyl)
-Double team
-Protect/rest/sub
I am yet to do calcs, but have used this in tower and found it has potential. Tauros can 1HKO a lot of pokemon with Double Edge or Return or EQ right? How many of those pokemon can it 2HKO with less attack investment and more defense? Intimidate and defense investment make Tauros very bulky while max speed would keep it at the speed tier most adamant variants would use. Toxic, Double team, protect are great for stalling, but what is even better is that you don't necessarily need to stall each pokemon with toxic; a lot of them you can 2HKO while they fail to hit or OHKO Tauros. I personally like using rest with this set as random status is problematic and it lets Tauros act as a status absorber which can aid the rest of the team.
I've paired this set with pokemon like hardy Zapdos (deals with water types, supports with Twave), Latios, timid Meganium (supports with leech seed, and deals with some water types), Dusclops (great fight switch, pressure and will-o-wisp support), bold Grumpig running 115 speed to outspeed some metagross (a well rounded psychic mon with two good abilities that can set up, use psych up, trick, seismic toss). These were really just pokemon I had and I'm sure there are lots of teams this would fit with.

I've taken this approach with Salamence. My defensive Salamence runs no speed investment, max attack, and hp and defense investment. The idea behind this is that Salamence can nearly out speed everything after a DD, but still runs the risk of being QC'd or critted by something like Metagross. That was the set that won me gold in Palace.

Great idea - I think a defensive Tauros actually has a lot of potential. 44 HP/252 Attack/216 Def with an Impish nature gives it roughly 300 in each stat; if you're stalling, Speed is less important and it lets you hit back with some force. Or you could go the whole hog and max HP and Defence completely to really make it impregnable physically. IIRC there's one in the Frontier that has Double Team and Rest with max HP instead of Speed and I have found it quite annoying to take down when it makes an appearance.

As for Salamence, I've always found my ideal build to be 146 HP/252 Attack/112 Speed with an Adamant nature so as to give it a semblance of bulk while ensuring you outrun the entire Frontier after one DD. I've never used Salamence in a serious streak though (have had some limited success with it in shorter runs) so take that with a pinch of salt.

I've also considered using Pidgeot as a lead, making use moves like feather dance, sand-attack, whirl wind, along with decent stats. For the most part, Linoon would do this better, but the niche Pidgeot may have is whirl-winding the opponents pokemon if it has clear body or is generally a bad mon to set up on.

Pidgeot isn't a bad lead at all! I've also been exploring possibly using Stantler, which is similar to Tauros in a lot of ways - nicely fast with Intimidate and gets a lot of useful tricky support moves, especially Spite which could be extremely useful. I'm currently working on my Singles team - I usually go for pure offense but I'm tired of having my streaks ended by OHKO users so cripple and sweep seems the best way to ensure victory.

The problem is that so few Sturdy Pokemon in gen 3 can set up capably and sweep. Of course this doesn't matter if I simply use a Pokemon which can get a Sub up and stall them out of PP, but then I'm still chancing that they won't get a Quick Claw'd hit off and derail my strategy. Skarmory seems the best bet so I need to find something that covers its weaknesses well.

I'm breeding a Kecleon atm for a few ideas. Moves like trick are very useful, especially in with colour change (i.e. water moves etc.). Slash and fishing for crits is another idea. Crits would help Kecleon break through walls, and pokemon that set up. Lucky crits also sometimes make key threats much easier to deal with. If the opponent can get the most bs crits, should we not exploit them too? Zangoose could fish for crits well too and does more damamge but has less bulk which fishing for crits would require. Salamence may be an excellent fisher. It learns focus energy, can hold scope lens or lansat berry, and can spam stab aerial ace which helps with evasion users and defense boosters. I still don't know whether this would be worth though since you only have a chance or scoring a crit, while DD is guaranteed to make your next move stronger. Maybe even DD and increased crit ratio could work?

Always liked Kecleon and I would love to see someone make good use of it. I'm wary of relying on a luck-based strategy like critical hits though. In the Frontier the RNG is never in your favour. Even with a boosted rate, the AI will still probably get CHs at a more reliable rate than you. But maybe that's the pessimist in me speaking.

 

[Actaeon]

Does anyone know whether it's possible to mix records with yourself using an emulator like VisualBoyAdvance?
I want to test a few multi teams I have in mind. Some of them are testable in the Double Battle tower, but in the endgame I get to send out 2 Pokémon while I might only have one left in Multi.

EDIT: I already found a way! The first team I'll actually test is a non-Explosion haymaker in which my partner ('Collector Emerald') uses Latios and Latias; both are immune to EQ and have good coverage, so they'll often use super effective moves and can't really do anything 'wrong'. Also they don't require defensive switching, since they're of the same type anyway. This also ensures it doesn't matter that much which one is picked first by the AI.

I use CB Tauros and probably Metagross as the second Pokémon, but then I can experiment a little bit with the second Pokémon. Since I'm not using Explosion anyway, other good candidates are Snorlax, Swampert and Flygon as reliable EQ Pokémon. I like to use CB myself instead of letting the AI use it, because I'm able to make right switches.

Here are results with Tauros and Groudon for fun, ofc I'll use legit Pokemon for a serious attempt:

 

[Kommo-o]

Amazing streak and such an unfortunate loss. Both of those pokemon are a nightmare to deal with (I used to use Herracross until Ursurang quick claw aerial aced which was frustrating since 90% of the time Herracross is a perfect check).

I've been theorymoning a defensive Tauros set with the idea of minimising the risk of getting QC critted, or QC OHKO'd in mind:

Impish or adamant, max speed with HP and Def investment
Lum berry or lefties
-Return/double edge
-Toxic/EQ/hp ghost/hp steal (for aerodactlyl)
-Double team
-Protect/rest/sub
I am yet to do calcs, but have used this in tower and found it has potential. Tauros can 1HKO a lot of pokemon with Double Edge or Return or EQ right? How many of those pokemon can it 2HKO with less attack investment and more defense? Intimidate and defense investment make Tauros very bulky while max speed would keep it at the speed tier most adamant variants would use. Toxic, Double team, protect are great for stalling, but what is even better is that you don't necessarily need to stall each pokemon with toxic; a lot of them you can 2HKO while they fail to hit or OHKO Tauros. I personally like using rest with this set as random status is problematic and it lets Tauros act as a status absorber which can aid the rest of the team.
I've paired this set with pokemon like hardy Zapdos (deals with water types, supports with Twave), Latios, timid Meganium (supports with leech seed, and deals with some water types), Dusclops (great fight switch, pressure and will-o-wisp support), bold Grumpig running 115 speed to outspeed some metagross (a well rounded psychic mon with two good abilities that can set up, use psych up, trick, seismic toss). These were really just pokemon I had and I'm sure there are lots of teams this would fit with.

Don't see how this Tauros set is supposed to protect you against hax. FYI OHKO moves ignore accuracy checks which means that no matter how many Double Team boosts you gain, it will remain 30 accuracy. So basically, you are only relying on Substitute to avoid the moves and the AI has 5 PP available to OHKO you. Regular Earthquake from the Rhydon sets are still breaking the Substitute at -1 which basically makes this set very unreliable to handle the OHKO mons:

-1 255+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 255 HP / 252 Def Tauros: 51-61 (28 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

If you're looking for protection against OHKO users, use a mon with Sturdy, Gengar (if you have a way to handle Lapras/Walrein) or Suicune (Sub + Pressure can handle OHKO users to some extent).

If you want to abuse Evasion, Blissey is an overall better choice thanks to its god-tier Special Defense and bulk. You can be guaranteed that with some RNG on your favor, Walrein/Lapras can't break her Substitutes without their OHKO moves and does much better. You can even invest EVs to make sure her Substitutes are not broken by Walrein's Earthquake. Just make sure that in case you plan for SubEvasion Blissey, you want a hard hitter since it gets eaten away by Raikou 6 / Entei 1 & 6 / Suicune 1 & 2.

I've also considered using Pidgeot as a lead, making use moves like feather dance, sand-attack, whirl wind, along with decent stats. For the most part, Linoon would do this better, but the niche Pidgeot may have is whirl-winding the opponents pokemon if it has clear body or is generally a bad mon to set up on.

83/75/70 is not really good enough bulk to consider Whirlwind and let alone taking into account Pidgeot's mediocre typing. The reason why Skarmory is so succesful using this move is due to its fantastic bulk, specially from the physical side.

I'm breeding a Kecleon atm for a few ideas. Moves like trick are very useful, especially in with colour change (i.e. water moves etc.). Slash and fishing for crits is another idea. Crits would help Kecleon break through walls, and pokemon that set up. Lucky crits also sometimes make key threats much easier to deal with. If the opponent can get the most bs crits, should we not exploit them too? Zangoose could fish for crits well too and does more damamge but has less bulk which fishing for crits would require. Salamence may be an excellent fisher. It learns focus energy, can hold scope lens or lansat berry, and can spam stab aerial ace which helps with evasion users and defense boosters. I still don't know whether this would be worth though since you only have a chance or scoring a crit, while DD is guaranteed to make your next move stronger. Maybe even DD and increased crit ratio could work?

Salamence or Gyarados are great choices as for Trick sweepers. Both get Initmidate, access to Dragon Dance and on Salamence's case, it gets Aerial Ace to ignore Bright Powder / Double Team set ups. Just be mindful that Aerial Ace is so weak you'll need 252 Atk to at least allow it to 2HKO Skarmory (as long as it isn't the Curse set). On Gyarados' case, its biggest argument on its favor is that most Water types without an Electric move can't beat it and it isn't weak to Ice.

 

[Actaeon]

I did an emulator run and got exactly 100 wins in Multi Tower with CB Tauros and Swampert @ Lum Berry using EQ, HP[Rock], Focus Punch and Foresight. Partnered up with Latias and Latios.

Literally every battle until now was easy, and then suddenly Latios missed two Dragon Claws against a Brightpowder TTar. I still would have won the battle if EQ would hit through a +1 evasion Registeel, but it didn't so it eventually FP'ed my Tauros to death and toxicstalled my Latias in sand. Little too grumpy to make a detailed post about the loss atm, but I can't really blame the team.

Edit: not too grumpy anymore, here's the loss video:

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I did an emulator run and got exactly 100 wins in Multi Tower with CB Tauros and Swampert @ Lum Berry using EQ, HP[Rock], Focus Punch and Foresight. Partnered up with Latias and Latios.

Literally every battle until now was easy, and then suddenly Latios missed two Dragon Claws against a Brightpowder TTar. I still would have won the battle if EQ would hit through a +1 evasion Registeel, but it didn't so it eventually FP'ed my Tauros to death and toxicstalled my Latias in sand. Little too grumpy to make a detailed post about the loss atm, but I can't really blame the team.

Edit: not too grumpy anymore, here's the loss video:

Fantastic streak for a first try! I'm a little worried you're going to catch up with me, now...

Houndoom and Tyranitar being the leads there really made that team look deceptively easy to deal with. Latios being immune to Earthquake really was the crucial factor there but overall it I agree it probably would have been more optimal to stay in get rid of Tyranitar asap; that way you'd probably have been able to do a chunk of damage to Registeel too. Usually if both opponents are threatening I try to finish off one side's team to make it 2v1 but that wasn't an option here; the Lati twins are so difficult to deal with, and Tyranitar more so.

What items were your partners holding?

 

[Actaeon]

Fantastic streak for a first try! I'm a little worried you're going to catch up with me, now...

Houndoom and Tyranitar being the leads there really made that team look deceptively easy to deal with. Latios being immune to Earthquake really was the crucial factor there but overall it I agree it probably would have been more optimal to stay in get rid of Tyranitar asap; that way you'd probably have been able to do a chunk of damage to Registeel too. Usually if both opponents are threatening I try to finish off one side's team to make it 2v1 but that wasn't an option here; the Lati twins are so difficult to deal with, and Tyranitar more so.

What items were your partners holding?

Latias holds Cheri Berry and Latios holds Lum Berry. Both have the standard 341 Speed, full SpA investment and rest into HP. So on this team I get to use two Lum Berries. Two Choice Bands is pretty broken too, so I guess I should try that, but then I don't really trust my AI partner with CB most of the time, unless I can remove immunities on the opposing side (e.g. through the use of Foresight on Ghost-types and Skill Swapping away Levitate).

 

[AgentMichaelSkarm]

Hello all,

As a dear lover of Gen 3, you guys are cool. I've been lurking since March, trying to make it on the 70 board for Tower but I just can't fucking do it. Sorry if a sub-70 post isn't acceptable, but at this point I had to make an acct and ask for help. Anything to push me over the edge and get gold on something not named the Battle Dome would be greatly appreciated, as even with 800+ hrs on my Emerald save I can't make any progress.

This is the most recent team I've used, keep getting into the high 50s and low 60s and then annihilated. Doing this on lvl 50s and tried about 20-30 runs with this set (maybe I need to do another 20-30 and keep testing my luck? It feels like most of you only do a run or two and switch sets so I feel like I'm bashing my head against the wall at this point):

Metagross - Ludicolo - Flygon

My best attempt got to round 66 where I ended up in a 1v1 between Ludicolo and the enemy Venusaur, an insta-loss that I ragequit, so my best streak proof sits at 63 if y'all want a photo. To be honest, even knowing Flygon would've made Raikou a freebie and turned the fight 3 on 2, I'm not sure my team would have been able to handle Anabel's last poke curselax anyways unless I somehow kept Metagross alive to explode it, especially if it's running immunity. I guess instead of locking Flygon into EQ, I could rock slide Raikou to death and then hit Latios as much as possible (probably once, before being 1 shot by Dragon Claw) before a sac switch to Metagross to finish the job and then explode Snorlax? The theory being, if I have EQ I have to switch off Latios, giving a free turn of dmg or CM, whereas Rock Slide can potentially flinch & also would prevent Metagross being damaged on the switch, keeping it alive to outspeed Snorlax for the turn 1 KO. Especially cuz I don't wanna explode on Latios' brightpowder, and letting Snorlax curse up while leech seed + toxic attempt and then switch to Flygon (3 turns) is completely brutal and probably GG right there. Reflect could mess it all up depending how long it sticks around on Latios or even Snorlax. Never got a chance to test it tho.

All pokemon I've caught or bred myself, the Metagross I save scummed from my Sapphire. Despite the amount of time I've invested breeding, I'm too lazy to learn how to RNG pokemon (plus it sorta feels like cheating), although it would probably be less of a time sink at this point. But if anyone has breeding tips beyond make 1000 eggs or a nice Ditto, that would be great. I've ripped pretty much all my sets and spreads from smogon & other people's posts. The only glitches I've used are to clone items like EQ TM for movesets. I have Emerald, Sapphire, FR and LG.


Anyways below is the team:


Chroma (Metagross) w/ Lum
Adamant, Clear Body
MM, EQ, Aerial Ace, Explosion
IVs: 25-31-25-26-10-4
EVs: 4 HP - 252 Atk - 252 Spe

This guy has nice physical bulk and can survive even stab EQs, but at 108 speed I think that the speed IV might be killing me here since I could have a bit more bulk if I didn't need to pump up speed, and I think sometimes even stuff like Aggron and Kangaskhan outspeeds it (?) which is lame and loses EQ war. Lum + Clear Body is pretty beast on a lead, and Metagross is immune to attract, so it can almost always secure the first kill even on status spammers and other random bs. It's also very easy to switch to Flygon, as EQ and fire moves are usually too easy to predict on turn 1. For some reason frontier pokes love to use speed-reducing moves so even a Milotic with surf will often prioritize Icy Wind on Metagross, despite the type disadvantage and Clear Body, but that move can totally ruin a Flygon switch. Same thing with Rock Tomb.

Generally the strategy is to kill opponent 1, then if you can't sweep either explode or switch on opponent 2 if applicable, which is where Metagross being able to switch moves is really nice. Worst case scenario I resort to explosion to remove the first poke, but a 2v2 gets pretty spicy because Flygon ends up choice locked or takes too much damage on multiple switches. Originally when training Meta I used HP flying, but it's only power 61 so I switched to Aerial Ace. It's kind of necessary to take care of the DT-spam grass types that wall Ludicolo. This was trained to be a CBGross but Flygon appreciates the band more. I did try Rock Slide but all the things that rock slide needs to hit (bugs, dragons, flying types) outspeed metagross so who cares anyways? Especially if Super Effective RS hits just as hard as neutral MM, and both can miss anyways, and something like Salamence is just a switch anyways because dragons pack EQ often.

Honestly I'm kind of looking to ditch Metagross because the accuracy of Meteor Mash has let me down way too many times, with or without the choice band. For example it can fail to 2HKO Machamp with AA, so you'd need one MM to push the KO, but of course the number of times I've missed that MM is too high, and STAB cross chop proceeds to ravage my team. Perhaps this is where CBGross shines, by getting 2 chances to OHKO instead of one chance to 2HKO, and also just flat-out killing most counter users, but it still doesn't get the KO on Machamp. My best steel lead at that point would be my Skarmory w/ WW, spikes, protect, resto, Careful nature w/ 30 SpD, which maybe does well to attract more electric attacks and make the flygon switch easier? Sturdy is nice too for Walrein, & immunity to EQ is cool, and phazing would be super nice. I would greatly miss Explosion support tho and the general power for stuff like Snorlax.



Nymphaea (Ludicolo [f]) w/ Leftovers
Calm, Swift Swim
Surf, Leech Seed, Toxic, Synthesis
IVs: 22-14-29-31-30-6 (or close)
EVs: 252 HP - 40 SpA - 212 SpD

The star of this team, and the poke I'd like to continue building around. Since nobody else has done a streak with it yet I though it would suck, but it works surprisingly well. I have not found a single better pokemon at walling and removing bulky waters, which aids the physical Metagross and Flygon immensely. Swampert? Deleted. Milotic? Deleted. Rain Dancers? Potentially outsped, and then deleted either way. Though Rain Dish might be better for stall, I like that this pokemon thrives in both Sun and Rain w/ Synthesis and it's ability, respectively. Plus, if Ludicolo removes the rain pokemon and still has rain up for the next poke, it can go HAM. During sunny day it can take non-STAB hard flame attacks and solarbeams very easily (looking at you SD Flygon & Exeggutor), and synth off the damage. It even laughs at Suicune and Blissey provided leech seed hits. For example leech seed + leftovers completely negates Seismic Toss Blissey.
Ludicolo usually finishes the job at or near full HP, especially if you time Synthesis well, and I've never yet run into a situation where I run out of Synthesis PP despite only having 8. Only problem I've found is with sets like curse Wailord, and obviously Gyarados and Tentacruel give it trouble. It also resists enemy EQs while Flygon is immune, so both are very safe switches from Metagross should it stare down trouble. It even walls opposing Metagross by resisting MM + EQ, although MM does around 40% so leech seed recovery is essential. Leech seed itself might be one of the single best moves I've found for dealing with stall-ish frontier pokemon and providing some safer switches for Flygon and Metagross. It also eats ice beams like nobody's business... except in round 50-ish when it remained frozen for >10 turns in a row in a loss :(

As said before, Venusaur (and by extension Vileplume, Victreebell) wall this pokemon. Although it does wall Meganium 3 back since its only damage move is leech seed. This is where losing Metagross early hurts the most. Needs to watch out for waters packing physical attacks like mega kick Blastoise, which end up doing just under 50% usually. While it can leech seed + synth stall, an unlucky crit puts Ludicolo on its toes. Another thing to watch out for is a lot of sets, mixed or otherwise, run AA which gets good damage in. It goes without saying that any mixed meme sets like special Aggron get annihilated. This poke doesn't mind getting put to sleep too much against special attackers, and paralysis is usually not a problem as long as the enemy gets seeded in time. Even burn and poison aren't too bad, and with leech seed + synth it can usually win a toxic war. Watch out for sludge bombs, i.e. this poke cannot win against any Weezing sets. I also think the low speed (78) is a mistake, a few more and it could outspeed some bulky pokemon, but then again stuff like a Lapras isn't a threat anyways, and it usually doesn't mind going 2nd because the bulk of the work is done by leech seed & toxic at the end of the turn. Perhaps I should've thought about the boosted rain dance speed too.

"With zero special weaknesses, the only special attackers that I feel can threaten this pokemon are the Lati@s and maybe all-out Alakazam" he said to himself, as the Latios used dragon dance and then physically swept anyways. That run had me considering running Ice Beam over Surf to deal with dragons (and duel other grass types), but the power loss seems a bit steep on neutral targets like a rested Snorlax where Leech Seed + Surf spam is needed to secure the kill in the 3 turns provided before they can Rest again. Plus dragons tend to pack AA anyways, often STAB, and are faster so you can't just synth stall. Surf also OHKOs potential Metagross threats like Rhydon and helps chunk waters down faster. This is really where my dilemma of "No AA on flygon -> AA on Metagross over Shadow Ball -> I don't have a good way to hit the Lati@s" came about, one of the main reasons I think this team struggles to climb far.

Please don't suggest Blissey because the whole point of my efforts was to find alternatives to Blissey, which shows up in like half of your posts. Despite being OP, I find that poke to be a total snoozefest and probably won't use it anywhere besides the pyramid.



Jet (Flygon [f]) w/ Choice Band
Jolly, Levitate
EQ, Rock Slide, Fly, Quick Attack
IVs: 31-30-30-18-11-25 (or close)
EVs: 4HP - 252 Atk - 252 Spe

Originally I had Lum Latios with SPIT and a CBGross but my team kept losing early due to salac sweepers and focus band Ninjask (this scum of the earth ended 3 of my runs in a row). It's true that leech seed + toxic both hard counter endure + salac, but the weakness of Ludicolo it its inability to actually switch into these physical bug-type pokemon and get off the move for fear of a STAB Megahorn/Silver Wind, Aerial Ace, or Sludge Bomb, and ofc Pinsir Guillotine. So I switched to Flygon for Quick Attack coverage, meaning if a sweeper gets set up I can remove it only needing to sacrifice one poke. Flygon also resists fire and immune to both electric and ground which is amazing paired with Metagross lead. This one change basically doubled the length of my tower runs, especially considering the difficult pokemon appear after 35. Flygon has perfect Lvl 50 physical bulk which is nice & with EQ slaps most pokemon pretty hard. Honestly Rock Slide could be better, it can't even 2HKO gyarados from what I've found, which has lost me to the DD sets before. I ran Fly because idk what else to put there, but it kinda synergizes with leech seed and makes it easy to travel around if needed. It also allows my Flygon to beat other Flygon.

The fact that Flygon can't learn AA is honestly criminal, it would open up so many options for this team like shadow ball on Metagross to take care of those spooky Lati@s. Flygon's inability to consistently deal with grass types if Metagross goes down has been one of the biggest issues for my team, which is why I considered Fire Blast over Fly, but the accuracy scares me and her low SpA+nature might make it too weak. I guess technically 2 turns of resisted EQ does more damage than a 2-turn Super Effective Fly, but also Flygon usually just dies before it can get a 2nd EQ off anyways. Despite the OK stats it has a shitty HP ground which is useless.

Maybe I can replace this with a setup Gyarados? Still immune to EQ and resists fire, but also resists fighting... but then it wouldn't attract the ice beams and water attacks that Ludicolo loves to switch into, and trade electric immunity for a 4x weakness. I also don't think I have the time/ability to try to breed specifically for a HP type, like HP Flying Gyarados, so I'd probably run EQ + Rock Slide, which doesn't solve AA on Metagross, but Metagross would be able to hold choice band again. Other alternative is CBSalamence I guess w EQ+RS+AA+Fire Blast opening up Metagross for Shadow Ball.


Major threats:
Venusaur
Walrein of course
Counter users (esp. first poke or if Ludicolo is down)
Gyarados & other DD users
Curselax & other curse users
Fighting Types, esp. STAB Cross Chop from stronger pokes like Machamp. No flying or psychic type means nothing resists fighting moves, and CC does like 70% to Metagross.
Lati@s, and sometimes other dragon types due to diverse movesets and often pack AA to delete Ludicolo
Slaking & Tauros & Kangaskhan. Specifially bulk up turn 1 slaking isn't killed by Explosion, and Brightpowder Tauros has haxed me a couple times.
Weezing (if Metagross gone. This is usually an explosion target for me)

Couple advantages:
Ludicolo handles almost all waters
Blissey gets deleted by either explosion or Ludicolo and has literally never been a threat to this team.

Anyways, take all of my analysis with a grain of salt because clearly I don't know how to win at this game.

Here's some other pokes I have access to rn that are trained enough to potentially work on the frontier:
A Rash 4-252-252 Latios, Slaking, Cradily, Espeon, Mixed Swampert, Electabuzz, Skarmory, Registeel, Porygon2, a HP Ice modest Sceptile, a hasty Starmie, Curselax w/ thick fat :/

I don't have access to any of the boosting berries, although I guess I could try that roaming glitch in Sapphire. Still haven't seen Latias though...



A side question about the Pokedex completion & getting the Johto starter:
A friend traded me Deoxys a while back so I have it in the dex. I'm sitting at 199 Hoenn pokes, missing Zangoose, Latias, & Jirachi. If I finally catch Latias and get 200, will I get the starter, or do I need a Zangoose too? (don't have Ruby)

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Hello all,

As a dear lover of Gen 3, you guys are cool. I've been lurking since March, trying to make it on the 70 board for Tower but I just can't fucking do it. Sorry if a sub-70 post isn't acceptable, but at this point I had to make an acct and ask for help. Anything to push me over the edge and get gold on something not named the Battle Dome would be greatly appreciated, as even with 800+ hrs on my Emerald save I can't make any progress.

This is the most recent team I've used, keep getting into the high 50s and low 60s and then annihilated. Doing this on lvl 50s and tried about 20-30 runs with this set (maybe I need to do another 20-30 and keep testing my luck? It feels like most of you only do a run or two and switch sets so I feel like I'm bashing my head against the wall at this point):

Metagross - Ludicolo - Flygon

My best attempt got to round 66 where I ended up in a 1v1 between Ludicolo and the enemy Venusaur, an insta-loss that I ragequit, so my best streak proof sits at 63 if y'all want a photo. To be honest, even knowing Flygon would've made Raikou a freebie and turned the fight 3 on 2, I'm not sure my team would have been able to handle Anabel's last poke curselax anyways unless I somehow kept Metagross alive to explode it, especially if it's running immunity. I guess instead of locking Flygon into EQ, I could rock slide Raikou to death and then hit Latios as much as possible (probably once, before being 1 shot by Dragon Claw) before a sac switch to Metagross to finish the job and then explode Snorlax? The theory being, if I have EQ I have to switch off Latios, giving a free turn of dmg or CM, whereas Rock Slide can potentially flinch & also would prevent Metagross being damaged on the switch, keeping it alive to outspeed Snorlax for the turn 1 KO. Especially cuz I don't wanna explode on Latios' brightpowder, and letting Snorlax curse up while leech seed + toxic attempt and then switch to Flygon (3 turns) is completely brutal and probably GG right there. Reflect could mess it all up depending how long it sticks around on Latios or even Snorlax. Never got a chance to test it tho.

All pokemon I've caught or bred myself, the Metagross I save scummed from my Sapphire. Despite the amount of time I've invested breeding, I'm too lazy to learn how to RNG pokemon (plus it sorta feels like cheating), although it would probably be less of a time sink at this point. But if anyone has breeding tips beyond make 1000 eggs or a nice Ditto, that would be great. I've ripped pretty much all my sets and spreads from smogon & other people's posts. The only glitches I've used are to clone items like EQ TM for movesets. I have Emerald, Sapphire, FR and LG.


Anyways below is the team:


Chroma (Metagross) w/ Lum
Adamant, Clear Body
MM, EQ, Aerial Ace, Explosion
IVs: 25-31-25-26-10-4
EVs: 4 HP - 252 Atk - 252 Spe

This guy has nice physical bulk and can survive even stab EQs, but at 108 speed I think that the speed IV might be killing me here since I could have a bit more bulk if I didn't need to pump up speed, and I think sometimes even stuff like Aggron and Kangaskhan outspeeds it (?) which is lame and loses EQ war. Lum + Clear Body is pretty beast on a lead, and Metagross is immune to attract, so it can almost always secure the first kill even on status spammers and other random bs. It's also very easy to switch to Flygon, as EQ and fire moves are usually too easy to predict on turn 1. For some reason frontier pokes love to use speed-reducing moves so even a Milotic with surf will often prioritize Icy Wind on Metagross, despite the type disadvantage and Clear Body, but that move can totally ruin a Flygon switch. Same thing with Rock Tomb.

Generally the strategy is to kill opponent 1, then if you can't sweep either explode or switch on opponent 2 if applicable, which is where Metagross being able to switch moves is really nice. Worst case scenario I resort to explosion to remove the first poke, but a 2v2 gets pretty spicy because Flygon ends up choice locked or takes too much damage on multiple switches. Originally when training Meta I used HP flying, but it's only power 61 so I switched to Aerial Ace. It's kind of necessary to take care of the DT-spam grass types that wall Ludicolo. This was trained to be a CBGross but Flygon appreciates the band more. I did try Rock Slide but all the things that rock slide needs to hit (bugs, dragons, flying types) outspeed metagross so who cares anyways? Especially if Super Effective RS hits just as hard as neutral MM, and both can miss anyways, and something like Salamence is just a switch anyways because dragons pack EQ often.

Honestly I'm kind of looking to ditch Metagross because the accuracy of Meteor Mash has let me down way too many times, with or without the choice band. For example it can fail to 2HKO Machamp with AA, so you'd need one MM to push the KO, but of course the number of times I've missed that MM is too high, and STAB cross chop proceeds to ravage my team. Perhaps this is where CBGross shines, by getting 2 chances to OHKO instead of one chance to 2HKO, and also just flat-out killing most counter users, but it still doesn't get the KO on Machamp. My best steel lead at that point would be my Skarmory w/ WW, spikes, protect, resto, Careful nature w/ 30 SpD, which maybe does well to attract more electric attacks and make the flygon switch easier? Sturdy is nice too for Walrein, & immunity to EQ is cool, and phazing would be super nice. I would greatly miss Explosion support tho and the general power for stuff like Snorlax.



Nymphaea (Ludicolo [f]) w/ Leftovers
Calm, Swift Swim
Surf, Leech Seed, Toxic, Synthesis
IVs: 22-14-29-31-30-6 (or close)
EVs: 252 HP - 40 SpA - 212 SpD

The star of this team, and the poke I'd like to continue building around. Since nobody else has done a streak with it yet I though it would suck, but it works surprisingly well. I have not found a single better pokemon at walling and removing bulky waters, which aids the physical Metagross and Flygon immensely. Swampert? Deleted. Milotic? Deleted. Rain Dancers? Potentially outsped, and then deleted either way. Though Rain Dish might be better for stall, I like that this pokemon thrives in both Sun and Rain w/ Synthesis and it's ability, respectively. Plus, if Ludicolo removes the rain pokemon and still has rain up for the next poke, it can go HAM. During sunny day it can take non-STAB hard flame attacks and solarbeams very easily (looking at you SD Flygon & Exeggutor), and synth off the damage. It even laughs at Suicune and Blissey provided leech seed hits. For example leech seed + leftovers completely negates Seismic Toss Blissey.
Ludicolo usually finishes the job at or near full HP, especially if you time Synthesis well, and I've never yet run into a situation where I run out of Synthesis PP despite only having 8. Only problem I've found is with sets like curse Wailord, and obviously Gyarados and Tentacruel give it trouble. It also resists enemy EQs while Flygon is immune, so both are very safe switches from Metagross should it stare down trouble. It even walls opposing Metagross by resisting MM + EQ, although MM does around 40% so leech seed recovery is essential. Leech seed itself might be one of the single best moves I've found for dealing with stall-ish frontier pokemon and providing some safer switches for Flygon and Metagross. It also eats ice beams like nobody's business... except in round 50-ish when it remained frozen for >10 turns in a row in a loss :(

As said before, Venusaur (and by extension Vileplume, Victreebell) wall this pokemon. Although it does wall Meganium 3 back since its only damage move is leech seed. This is where losing Metagross early hurts the most. Needs to watch out for waters packing physical attacks like mega kick Blastoise, which end up doing just under 50% usually. While it can leech seed + synth stall, an unlucky crit puts Ludicolo on its toes. Another thing to watch out for is a lot of sets, mixed or otherwise, run AA which gets good damage in. It goes without saying that any mixed meme sets like special Aggron get annihilated. This poke doesn't mind getting put to sleep too much against special attackers, and paralysis is usually not a problem as long as the enemy gets seeded in time. Even burn and poison aren't too bad, and with leech seed + synth it can usually win a toxic war. Watch out for sludge bombs, i.e. this poke cannot win against any Weezing sets. I also think the low speed (78) is a mistake, a few more and it could outspeed some bulky pokemon, but then again stuff like a Lapras isn't a threat anyways, and it usually doesn't mind going 2nd because the bulk of the work is done by leech seed & toxic at the end of the turn. Perhaps I should've thought about the boosted rain dance speed too.

"With zero special weaknesses, the only special attackers that I feel can threaten this pokemon are the Lati@s and maybe all-out Alakazam" he said to himself, as the Latios used dragon dance and then physically swept anyways. That run had me considering running Ice Beam over Surf to deal with dragons (and duel other grass types), but the power loss seems a bit steep on neutral targets like a rested Snorlax where Leech Seed + Surf spam is needed to secure the kill in the 3 turns provided before they can Rest again. Plus dragons tend to pack AA anyways, often STAB, and are faster so you can't just synth stall. Surf also OHKOs potential Metagross threats like Rhydon and helps chunk waters down faster. This is really where my dilemma of "No AA on flygon -> AA on Metagross over Shadow Ball -> I don't have a good way to hit the Lati@s" came about, one of the main reasons I think this team struggles to climb far.

Please don't suggest Blissey because the whole point of my efforts was to find alternatives to Blissey, which shows up in like half of your posts. Despite being OP, I find that poke to be a total snoozefest and probably won't use it anywhere besides the pyramid.



Jet (Flygon [f]) w/ Choice Band
Jolly, Levitate
EQ, Rock Slide, Fly, Quick Attack
IVs: 31-30-30-18-11-25 (or close)
EVs: 4HP - 252 Atk - 252 Spe

Originally I had Lum Latios with SPIT and a CBGross but my team kept losing early due to salac sweepers and focus band Ninjask (this scum of the earth ended 3 of my runs in a row). It's true that leech seed + toxic both hard counter endure + salac, but the weakness of Ludicolo it its inability to actually switch into these physical bug-type pokemon and get off the move for fear of a STAB Megahorn/Silver Wind, Aerial Ace, or Sludge Bomb, and ofc Pinsir Guillotine. So I switched to Flygon for Quick Attack coverage, meaning if a sweeper gets set up I can remove it only needing to sacrifice one poke. Flygon also resists fire and immune to both electric and ground which is amazing paired with Metagross lead. This one change basically doubled the length of my tower runs, especially considering the difficult pokemon appear after 35. Flygon has perfect Lvl 50 physical bulk which is nice & with EQ slaps most pokemon pretty hard. Honestly Rock Slide could be better, it can't even 2HKO gyarados from what I've found, which has lost me to the DD sets before. I ran Fly because idk what else to put there, but it kinda synergizes with leech seed and makes it easy to travel around if needed. It also allows my Flygon to beat other Flygon.

The fact that Flygon can't learn AA is honestly criminal, it would open up so many options for this team like shadow ball on Metagross to take care of those spooky Lati@s. Flygon's inability to consistently deal with grass types if Metagross goes down has been one of the biggest issues for my team, which is why I considered Fire Blast over Fly, but the accuracy scares me and her low SpA+nature might make it too weak. I guess technically 2 turns of resisted EQ does more damage than a 2-turn Super Effective Fly, but also Flygon usually just dies before it can get a 2nd EQ off anyways. Despite the OK stats it has a shitty HP ground which is useless.

Maybe I can replace this with a setup Gyarados? Still immune to EQ and resists fire, but also resists fighting... but then it wouldn't attract the ice beams and water attacks that Ludicolo loves to switch into, and trade electric immunity for a 4x weakness. I also don't think I have the time/ability to try to breed specifically for a HP type, like HP Flying Gyarados, so I'd probably run EQ + Rock Slide, which doesn't solve AA on Metagross, but Metagross would be able to hold choice band again. Other alternative is CBSalamence I guess w EQ+RS+AA+Fire Blast opening up Metagross for Shadow Ball.


Major threats:
Venusaur
Walrein of course
Counter users (esp. first poke or if Ludicolo is down)
Gyarados & other DD users
Curselax & other curse users
Fighting Types, esp. STAB Cross Chop from stronger pokes like Machamp. No flying or psychic type means nothing resists fighting moves, and CC does like 70% to Metagross.
Lati@s, and sometimes other dragon types due to diverse movesets and often pack AA to delete Ludicolo
Slaking & Tauros & Kangaskhan. Specifially bulk up turn 1 slaking isn't killed by Explosion, and Brightpowder Tauros has haxed me a couple times.
Weezing (if Metagross gone. This is usually an explosion target for me)

Couple advantages:
Ludicolo handles almost all waters
Blissey gets deleted by either explosion or Ludicolo and has literally never been a threat to this team.

Anyways, take all of my analysis with a grain of salt because clearly I don't know how to win at this game.

Here's some other pokes I have access to rn that are trained enough to potentially work on the frontier:
A Rash 4-252-252 Latios, Slaking, Cradily, Espeon, Mixed Swampert, Electabuzz, Skarmory, Registeel, Porygon2, a HP Ice modest Sceptile, a hasty Starmie, Curselax w/ thick fat :/

I don't have access to any of the boosting berries, although I guess I could try that roaming glitch in Sapphire. Still haven't seen Latias though...

Welcome! And nice team.

The fact that you're consistently getting to ~60 I think shows that your team is fairly solid. It often just takes a lot of persistence to push through that last round; when I first tried to get the Gold symbol (many years ago) it took me ages even though my team was pretty decent - getting familiar with enemy sets and how to use the team in conjunction takes a lot of practice.

I like how you've built the team around Ludicolo, it's a very underrated mon. Flygon is great too; I've been messing around with it lately and I'm growing more and more fond of it.

Really you want your lead to be one that gets you as much momentum as possible, and ideally can either get a quick KO or enfeeble the opponent's lead enough for the other team members to set up in front of it. Metagross is okay at that but it's just slightly too slow to be consistent and like you said MM's accuracy is too shaky to rely on. Have you experimented with using Flygon as a lead? With a CB it gets a lot of immediate power and if you get lucky with opponent lineups you'll probably be able to KO more than one Pokemon in a row.

I like the idea of using Gyarados - possibly a bulky build with Leftovers or Rest as well as DD. It doesn't draw in Ice attacks but it does pair well with Flygon's Electric immunity and provides some great team support with Intimidate; Ludicolo's weaknesses are Poison, Flying, and Bug which conveniently are all physical. Gyarados doesn't get Rock Slide but Earthquake+Double-Edge does the job reasonably well (though of course doesn't cover everything).

If not Gyarados, you might benefit from a special sweeper. A lot of the threats you list are vulnerable to strong, fast special sweepers (Venusaur, Gyarados, Fighting-types, even Slaking to an extent) and Flygon already covers physical attacking very well. It's a pity to lose Explosion since it's a reliable way to get a cheap and easy kill, but you could opt for a boosting sweeper instead which could tear through opposing teams quickly.

But it's late where I am, so take all that with a grain of salt too!

A side question about the Pokedex completion & getting the Johto starter:
A friend traded me Deoxys a while back so I have it in the dex. I'm sitting at 199 Hoenn pokes, missing Zangoose, Latias, & Jirachi. If I finally catch Latias and get 200, will I get the starter, or do I need a Zangoose too? (don't have Ruby)

Unfortunately Deoxys and Jirachi don't count for the purposes of dex completion (source: tried that myself before). You'll need to get a Zangoose somehow if you want your starter.

 

[AgentMichaelSkarm]

Thanks for the tips! I will try to figure out what poke I want to breed next.

I switched in Fire Blast and Ice Beam and made it 64. Figured out that Leech Seed + Quick Attack stalls the only Curse + Rest Snorlax variant besides Anabel's, since it only has RS and EQ and has to continue cursing if it wants that OHKO Rock Slide on Flygon (not sure if it even can). Should work with Flygon and any other Seeder if someone wants to try something. Unfortunately in the 65th battle I exploded turn 1 Ursaring, then miscounted the rests on a 2nd mon Snorlax and switched to Ludicolo to switch back and change to EQ, but instead of resting one more time Snorlax used RS and critted to one shot Ludicolo. Flygon won EQing and eventually forced to use struggle (god forbid the game ever gives ME a crit), but who else to pop out 3rd than my best friend Machamp, who ate struggle and killed me. Misplayed but I am close. I'm beginning to think Battle Girls are the most threatening trainer due to the beefy normals and fighting types.

I may try Flygon first, especially since it outspeeds so much (with the slightly lower IVs the only mon it misses is Gengar 1 and above). Since there's no Protect on this team, I've been using the Metagross -> Flygon switch to scout some sets, since a good # of pokes will run a Fire move or EQ like Salamence or Exploud, and it feels good to blank Earthquake and Electric moves. Then you just Ctrl+F the setlist and try to work from there. Metagross gets super juicy when you get a turn 1 Swagger or Trickband too. However it's always risky for Flygon to eat a fire move because burns. Also while Fire Blast OHKO Forretress (which wasn't a problem anyways), it fails against Scizor. Still helps a ton against Skarmory so it's been worth it already. Something else I noticed is that since waters refuse to use Water moves on Ludicolo, and most pack Ice, it's risky to switch back into Flygon if needed unless you stall out Ice Beams. Ludicolo also attracts paralysis a lot from waters like Rain Dance Gorebyss & Lapras that resort to Body Slam for the neutral damage, same with Kingdra using Dragonbreath. Finally, against sets like special Aggron and even CM Blissey, because Blizzard + Thunder + Fire Blast all have 120 BP and hit neutral, the AI uses them interchangeably and it's impossible to safely switch out unless one move runs out of PP.

I also had tried coming up with a team that passes boosts to a Suction Cups pokemon, either Octillery or Cradily, for the sweep without fear of being phazed. I feel Cradily works better in that role due to it's tankiness so it can use Rest, plus theres no boost moves that up both Specials & Speed, unlike DD or a Swords Dance Ninjask. Maybe Crippler -> Ninjask -> Cradily? A lead like Umbreon could pass Double Team boosts too, or even Curse, and run Toxic to open up a moveslot for Cradily (Rest + Recover?). But maybe it's just too hard to pull off with only 3 pokemon.

Very disappointing about the Johto starter, but I respect Nintendo not giving an advantage to people who could attend events.

 

[Voltolos]

Thanks for the tips! I will try to figure out what poke I want to breed next.

I switched in Fire Blast and Ice Beam and made it 64. Figured out that Leech Seed + Quick Attack stalls the only Curse + Rest Snorlax variant besides Anabel's, since it only has RS and EQ and has to continue cursing if it wants that OHKO Rock Slide on Flygon (not sure if it even can). Should work with Flygon and any other Seeder if someone wants to try something. Unfortunately in the 65th battle I exploded turn 1 Ursaring, then miscounted the rests on a 2nd mon Snorlax and switched to Ludicolo to switch back and change to EQ, but instead of resting one more time Snorlax used RS and critted to one shot Ludicolo. Flygon won EQing and eventually forced to use struggle (god forbid the game ever gives ME a crit), but who else to pop out 3rd than my best friend Machamp, who ate struggle and killed me. Misplayed but I am close. I'm beginning to think Battle Girls are the most threatening trainer due to the beefy normals and fighting types.

I may try Flygon first, especially since it outspeeds so much (with the slightly lower IVs the only mon it misses is Gengar 1 and above). Since there's no Protect on this team, I've been using the Metagross -> Flygon switch to scout some sets, since a good # of pokes will run a Fire move or EQ like Salamence or Exploud, and it feels good to blank Earthquake and Electric moves. Then you just Ctrl+F the setlist and try to work from there. Metagross gets super juicy when you get a turn 1 Swagger or Trickband too. However it's always risky for Flygon to eat a fire move because burns. Also while Fire Blast OHKO Forretress (which wasn't a problem anyways), it fails against Scizor. Still helps a ton against Skarmory so it's been worth it already. Something else I noticed is that since waters refuse to use Water moves on Ludicolo, and most pack Ice, it's risky to switch back into Flygon if needed unless you stall out Ice Beams. Ludicolo also attracts paralysis a lot from waters like Rain Dance Gorebyss & Lapras that resort to Body Slam for the neutral damage, same with Kingdra using Dragonbreath. Finally, against sets like special Aggron and even CM Blissey, because Blizzard + Thunder + Fire Blast all have 120 BP and hit neutral, the AI uses them interchangeably and it's impossible to safely switch out unless one move runs out of PP.

I also had tried coming up with a team that passes boosts to a Suction Cups pokemon, either Octillery or Cradily, for the sweep without fear of being phazed. I feel Cradily works better in that role due to it's tankiness so it can use Rest, plus theres no boost moves that up both Specials & Speed, unlike DD or a Swords Dance Ninjask. Maybe Crippler -> Ninjask -> Cradily? A lead like Umbreon could pass Double Team boosts too, or even Curse, and run Toxic to open up a moveslot for Cradily (Rest + Recover?). But maybe it's just too hard to pull off with only 3 pokemon.

Very disappointing about the Johto starter, but I respect Nintendo not giving an advantage to people who could attend events.

I’ve been trying to come up with a team that passes defensive boosts to cradily, and turning it into a literal checkmate. Solrock and Lunatone can both learn Cosmic Power + Baton Pass, but they don’t really hold up on their own. Gorebyss can do it as well, but doesn’t hold up well once again. I figure a pokemon that’s +6 Def +6 Spdef and possibly +6 Evasion, behind a substitute, and impossible to whirlwind out, would be virtually unstoppable. As far as I’m aware, pokemon after the 7th round don’t ever run Haze.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Thanks for the tips! I will try to figure out what poke I want to breed next.

Very disappointing about the Johto starter, but I respect Nintendo not giving an advantage to people who could attend events.

If you live in or around London I'll happily trade you one.

 

[AgentMichaelSkarm]

I’ve been trying to come up with a team that passes defensive boosts to cradily, and turning it into a literal checkmate. Solrock and Lunatone can both learn Cosmic Power + Baton Pass, but they don’t really hold up on their own. Gorebyss can do it as well, but doesn’t hold up well once again. I figure a pokemon that’s +6 Def +6 Spdef and possibly +6 Evasion, behind a substitute, and impossible to whirlwind out, would be virtually unstoppable. As far as I’m aware, pokemon after the 7th round don’t ever run Haze.

That haze tip that helps a lot actually. Interesting as my boosting teams have always been scared of Weezing but perhaps it isn't as bad as I thought. It really is those 30s-40s that are full of the more infuriating hax anyways.

I saw someone above floating the idea of a crit-fisher. Can you Baton Pass Lansat boost/focus energy? Opens up the ultimate "Believe in the Heart of the Cards" Meme Team of Cripple -> Boost & Crit passer -> Paraflinch Dunsparce w/ Leftovers or even a Scope Lens. I highly doubt it could get anywhere near 70 but it would be fun to try and outhax the AI. If only Lucky Punch worked on Blissey too...

Unfortunately I'm in San Francisco so no dice on that Zangoose.

 

[Voltolos]

That haze tip that helps a lot actually. Interesting as my boosting teams have always been scared of Weezing but perhaps it isn't as bad as I thought. It really is those 30s-40s that are full of the more infuriating hax anyways.

I saw someone above floating the idea of a crit-fisher. Can you Baton Pass Lansat boost/focus energy? Opens up the ultimate "Believe in the Heart of the Cards" Meme Team of Cripple -> Boost & Crit passer -> Paraflinch Dunsparce w/ Leftovers or even a Scope Lens. I highly doubt it could get anywhere near 70 but it would be fun to try and outhax the AI. If only Lucky Punch worked on Blissey too...

Unfortunately I'm in San Francisco so no dice on that Zangoose.

All I know that is I Ctrl + F’d ‘Haze’ on the max stats database and the only mon who I found was a level 50 Koffing, which you obviously would only see in the first few rounds.

You can pass the focus energy boost, I imagine you can pass Lansat as well. I don’t think that would be the best strategy for it though. I’m thinking either Choice Trick on turn 1 or torment looping and boosting on the free turns, then passing to Cradily

 

[N1c69]

That haze tip that helps a lot actually. Interesting as my boosting teams have always been scared of Weezing but perhaps it isn't as bad as I thought. It really is those 30s-40s that are full of the more infuriating hax anyways.

I saw someone above floating the idea of a crit-fisher. Can you Baton Pass Lansat boost/focus energy? Opens up the ultimate "Believe in the Heart of the Cards" Meme Team of Cripple -> Boost & Crit passer -> Paraflinch Dunsparce w/ Leftovers or even a Scope Lens. I highly doubt it could get anywhere near 70 but it would be fun to try and outhax the AI. If only Lucky Punch worked on Blissey too...

Unfortunately I'm in San Francisco so no dice on that Zangoose.

Hi I'm the critfisher lol.
I really liked your team and have been meaning to use Ludiculo for some time. Leech seed a blessing that helps the whole team and stops DT users quick. When I read about your problem with Latios, I thought perhaps you could run ice beam on Ludiculo. Surf and ice beam are a great combo, plus you'll be able to outspeed and hit flying types in rain. I love running toxic with leech seed since the opponents hp gets zapped so quick, but it will be useless against poison and steel types. Ice beam should also help with venusaur and friends. I'm not sure exactly what evs ko what, but Ludiculo has a great special def stat and defensive typing along with recovery from leech seed, so I bet it can tank hits and go for two or three hit kos. Leech seed, Surf, Ice Beam, Protect would be my go to for when I breed a ludo. Protect is great for recovery, stalling and scouting AA. I haven't used ludo in high fronteir streaks, so I'm not sure on calcs, but I could imagine a strategy of leech seeding your opponent and switching between team mates could help preserve ludos health, while always choosing the best mon for the hit to come.
Green Typhlosion's idea of Gyarados is perfect. Intim-a-switch has been the strategy that's achieved me my highest streaks and best teams. I could go on about how cool Gyarados is, but should stop.

As for crit fishing, by thoughts are it may be not worth putting so much effort in activating a lansat berry and passing it. Not saying the strategy would not work (I've always wanted to watch clever baton passes in tower and use lansat berry), but you can never get you crit ratio to 100%. My idea is that its better spending more turns setting up something guarenteed to help (DD, etc) instead of praying you get a crit when you need it. That's why I'm considering combos like slash and scope lense (zangoose), and making use of coverage moves that may crit. And maxing bulk for maximum turns. Ideally, if you hit 10 times, you crit 1 with out a boost. Powering attack and critting is lethal.

You mentioned something about RNG and I thought you might like my simple quick decent IV method. It does require some hax but it saves soooo much time and you don't have to look up sets.
1. Catch a 6IV pokemon using the ruby tower glitch, e.g. blaziken as it gives you a salac berry and is of the ground egg group which is the largest most diverse. Alsp think egg moves. This is easy and if you can achieve such high streaks on emerald, you'll be able to smash through this glitch quick (rby trainers/sets not as good and less mons).
2. Hopefully now you're smiling you have access to pinch berries without buying a game cube and playing those gc pokemon games for ever (they cost so much too). RNG a good ditto (I got a 4IV one (defenses and speed), gental, ditto, and between Blaziken and ditto I can breed a lot of mons quickly especially when chain breeding (maybe not the right ones, but a lot).
3. I like to breed as many creative sets as possible and wait for a female with a nature that works. Breed that again with your 6IV pokemon and ta-da, a strong mon. You can RNG or soft reset at this stage.

As for trading, I'd love to be able to share clones of my 6IV bold Latios (70BP HP dark) caught through rby glitch. if anyone wanted that or any other sets (unique and classic frontier sets) I could trade via internet on gen 4. Otherwise I live in Sydney, Australia and can't imagine anyone would be travelling much atm.

 

[N1c69]

One other quick thought- I have been playing pokemon showdown but struggle learning all the changes. If anyone wants to play 3rd gen 3 v 3 to break each others teams, or 6 v 6, let me know.

 

[AgentMichaelSkarm]

Dunsparce memes aside, it actually had me thinking about a team that can take advantage of paralyzing the entire enemy team and then utilizing a pokemon that is normally too slow to act as an effective sweeper. This is what I've been thinking about:

Supportive Gyarados
Intimidate
Timid (?) to reduce Confusion dmg a bit
Invest in speed (either max speed, or pick a tier to outspeed) and place the rest in bulk
TWave, Roar, Torment, (Protect?)
Lum berry?

The aim of Gyarados is to paralyze the opponent, then roar to the next opponent and continue to paralyze. Once the entire enemy team is paralyzed or removed, you can Torment the best option and switch to your setup pokemon. You can also obviously swap-stall support with intimidate. I was thinking protect to allow better stall against tormented pokemon but perhaps there is a better move. Also, the only other good TWave + Roar poke I could think of is Zapdos, but the speed isn't too necessary since Roar is low prio anyways and I'd rather have the bulk to take hits, and the speed only matters when trying to TWave the enemy before they make a move. That decision may also come down to ability (Intimidate vs Pressure) and moveset (Gyarados learns torment, while Zapdos can use TBolt to remove opposing water types which may be an issue). With only 3 enemy pokemon it shouldn't be too hard to manage paralyzing all of them, and the combo of Torment + Roar would ruin boosters before they even get a chance to set up. As an added bonus, using Roar to cycle through the enemy team allows you to scout sets before playing around them.

To complement Gyarados, we need a teammate that can A) take TBolt and B) take Rock Slides, meaning a Ground type. We also need a pokemon that can remove opposing ground types who are immune to TWave. The obvious choice here is Swampert.

Swampert
EQ, Surf, Ice Beam, Protect
Leftovers (or leave leftovers for the sweeper)

Protect works well with torment, and Swampert can switch in and remove ground types, STAB rock users, and electric types. Swampert being slow means it can also generally take advantage of paralyzed pokemon.


Finally, we want a pokemon that can effectively sweep, but normally is too slow to do so (our "dunsparce"). In my mind I was thinking of something like a Bulk Up Ursaring. You can switch it in on a paralyzed + tormented pokemon, boost up, and go to town. Even at +2 Ursaring would be devastating, especially if it's attacking before the enemy gets a chance to move. Haven't thought of a moveset but probably something like Double Edge, EQ and RS would work.