Suicune is not obtainable on Pokemon XD
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Gen III Battle Frontier Discussion and Records
- Thread starter Valentino23
- Start date
Suicune is not obtainable on Pokemon XD
Dang, sorry! I meant Colosseum - I'll edit my original post. I had put that in there to show that my Suicune's IVs were not as bad as the ones obtainable in FRLG.
Hi guys, I haven't been too active for a while because of some important exams/papers I needed to do in real life. I still tried to read the posts here from time to time and have been really enjoying the inceased activity in the last few weeks, especially all the new users taking on the Gen 3 Frontier :)
I feel like now would be the perfect time to start a team-based challenge like Kommo-o suggested some pages back. A quick overview of what I had in mind (will be fleshed out later and can obviously still change based on your feedback):
I feel like now would be the perfect time to start a team-based challenge like Kommo-o suggested some pages back. A quick overview of what I had in mind (will be fleshed out later and can obviously still change based on your feedback):
- Teams consisting of three players, one for each generation. Each player will only use Pokemon of his respective generation in the challenge.
- Some fair way to assign the teams (maybe a draft system?) to get a good mix of newer and more experienced players in each team and make the challenge fair for everyone.
- To increase team variety, each player gets to choose two Pokemon (probably also in some kind of draft system) that can be used exclusively by him and not by the other teams. The rest is free to use for everyone (in their respective generation).
- However, I think its a good idea to also restrict what Pokemon are egligible in the first place (since otherwise exclusive rights to something like Latios or Blissey might be too strong). For that reason, I suggest that we only allow Pokemon that are in the UU tier or lower on Smogon (so no Uber, OU or UUBL). After taking a quick glance the list looks pretty balanced to me, but maybe Actaeon with some more experience of using bad mons in the facilities has a better perspective on that.
- Facility-wise, if the motivation can be kept going for long enough, I would love to go trough all facilities (except Factory of course) with the same drafted teams. So for example in Week 1 and 2 everyone plays Arena, Week 3 and 4 Pike, 5 and 6 Dome etc.
- The scores of a team for a facility will be the sum of the two best streaks achieved by two different players of their team. Example: In Arena, Player 1 of Team 1 gets a highest streak of 50, Player 2 of Team 1 gets 38 and Player 3 gets 45. The score of Team 1 for Arena will be 50+45=95. The team with the highest score then gets 10 points, and the other teams get a fraction of that proportional to how close their score is to the highest score.
- The reasoning for only counting the two best out of three streaks is to give some more room for inactivity.
- In the end, the point for all facilities get added together to determine the winning team.
Count me in! I love the idea and I think it will be interesting to see how we can carry forward. On my case I would like to add some thoughts so we can properly discuss and see how we can perform the challenge:
- If balancing is a huge concern, maybe we can randomize the drafts? I think that randomizing the picks can lead to fun results without being over-centralized on teambuilding around Pokemon like Blissey or Suicune. You can end up with fun results like Suicune / Espeon / Meganium or Nidoking / Snorlax / Alakazam.
- If I have to think on a banlist, I think Lati@s should go. Hoenn has some of the better picks between all three generations and you can even clear a facility using Pokemon from Hoenn only (such as Werster's speedrun team)
- I can help providing rewards for the winning team since I run the Bank of Hoenn server to encourage participation
I found something really interesting while I was doing some Pike runs. Of course, I was on the middle of continuing my streak and I noticed something really interesting and extremely unusual that caught my eye recently. As some might have noticed, when you enter into Double Battle rooms, you'll end up facing two random NPC trainers which are supposed to pull out a Pokemon from their respective pools. However, on this particular trainer battle, I ended up facing Thriathlete Samir (Set 1-4 with 8 Lapras sets) and Delilah (Set 1-4 with 8 Gengar sets). Normally, I don't pull out the database sheet in Doubles unless I am unsure of a certain calc. However, I lost my mind when I saw Delilah sending out a Machamp. This was possibly one of the wildest things I've seen... If anything, Delilah could've send out a Gengar or something like that. But how in the world does she sends a Machamp when she has one of the most limited pools in Gen 3?
Did a couple runs at the Arena. I'm playing mostly for fun, so my pokemon's natures and IVs are suboptimal. I'll probably be trying the Lati Sandwich team next. (that is once I finish a playthrough of XD for the Selfdestruct move tutor) Hopefully I can at least break 60 KOs next time.
Team 1 (57 KOs)
Team 2 (59 KOs)
Team 1 (57 KOs)
This was the same team that first got me the Gold Symbol and I didn't want to waste the ongoing streak of 56 before trying other teams lol.
Latias @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Mild
EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
IVs: 0/4/28/18/25/12
Calm Mind
Psychic
Dragon Claw
Thunderbolt
This is just my personal experience, but I think I have lost more in the Arena than all other facilities combined in my journey to get all 7 Gold symbols. (probably at least 20-30 times with various different teams playing on and off over several years)
Eventually, what made the difference for me is when I saw Werster use Calm Mind Latios and realized how good a setup move can be in this facility. (I used to use Ice Beam over Calm Mind on this Latias) Getting in even 1 Calm Mind versus an easy matchup gives you such a big advantage for the rest of the fight. Calm Mind also turns Wobbuffet from a deadly threat into a free win.
Heracross @ Salac Berry
Ability: Guts
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 6 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
IVs: 2/9/21/19/5/31
Megahorn
Brick Break
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Heracross has good matchups against a great deal of Latias's weaknesses including powerful Normal types (e.g. Ursaring, Granbull), special walls (e.g. Snorlax, Blissey, Regice), Dark types (e.g. Tyranitar, Umbreon), Ice types and Steel types. It also OHKOs Wobbuffet with Megahorn which is nice.
Starmie @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Hasty
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 13/21/27/26/23/23
Surf
Psychic
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Starmie has the best coverage of any special attacker and nicely covers the Fire and Flying types that can outspeed and KO Heracross.
How I Lost
I was up against a trainer who led with Suicune 4 (Brightpowder + max speed). Latias's misses a Thunderbolt and goes down to 2 Ice Beams, but leaves Suicune with under 50% HP.
Then Suicune wins the speed tie twice in a row vs my Heracross and KOs it with 2 Surfs, while my Heracross misses Megahorn.
Starmie finishes off Suicune and is up against Slowbro. I use Thunderbolt 3 times, while Slowbro uses 2 Calm Minds + Yawn. I win the judging but next turn my Starmie is going to fall asleep.
The final pokemon is Entei. Entei survives Surf by a sliver of health, uses Double Team, and Starmie falls asleep. Then it Rests and Double Teams and the judging ends in a draw, meaning I lose.
Mystic Water would have saved the run and is a better item, but Petaya Berry was the item I had on my Starmie originally. Kinda unfortunate I got haxed into a loss so quickly. I was hoping to have at least a little bit of fun with my old team.
Threats
Scizor and Scyther can potentially sweep this team with Silver Wind and Aerial Ace. Psychic types like Espeon, Gardevoir, Starmie, and Alakazam are also really dangerous since they destroy Heracross and are evenly matched vs Latias and Starmie. These are some pretty gaping weaknesses so this team is definitely not suited for a long streak, but good enough to reach Gold with some luck and effort.
Latias @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Mild
EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
IVs: 0/4/28/18/25/12
Calm Mind
Psychic
Dragon Claw
Thunderbolt
This is just my personal experience, but I think I have lost more in the Arena than all other facilities combined in my journey to get all 7 Gold symbols. (probably at least 20-30 times with various different teams playing on and off over several years)
Eventually, what made the difference for me is when I saw Werster use Calm Mind Latios and realized how good a setup move can be in this facility. (I used to use Ice Beam over Calm Mind on this Latias) Getting in even 1 Calm Mind versus an easy matchup gives you such a big advantage for the rest of the fight. Calm Mind also turns Wobbuffet from a deadly threat into a free win.
Heracross @ Salac Berry
Ability: Guts
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 6 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
IVs: 2/9/21/19/5/31
Megahorn
Brick Break
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Heracross has good matchups against a great deal of Latias's weaknesses including powerful Normal types (e.g. Ursaring, Granbull), special walls (e.g. Snorlax, Blissey, Regice), Dark types (e.g. Tyranitar, Umbreon), Ice types and Steel types. It also OHKOs Wobbuffet with Megahorn which is nice.
Starmie @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Hasty
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 13/21/27/26/23/23
Surf
Psychic
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Starmie has the best coverage of any special attacker and nicely covers the Fire and Flying types that can outspeed and KO Heracross.
How I Lost
I was up against a trainer who led with Suicune 4 (Brightpowder + max speed). Latias's misses a Thunderbolt and goes down to 2 Ice Beams, but leaves Suicune with under 50% HP.
Then Suicune wins the speed tie twice in a row vs my Heracross and KOs it with 2 Surfs, while my Heracross misses Megahorn.
Starmie finishes off Suicune and is up against Slowbro. I use Thunderbolt 3 times, while Slowbro uses 2 Calm Minds + Yawn. I win the judging but next turn my Starmie is going to fall asleep.
The final pokemon is Entei. Entei survives Surf by a sliver of health, uses Double Team, and Starmie falls asleep. Then it Rests and Double Teams and the judging ends in a draw, meaning I lose.
Mystic Water would have saved the run and is a better item, but Petaya Berry was the item I had on my Starmie originally. Kinda unfortunate I got haxed into a loss so quickly. I was hoping to have at least a little bit of fun with my old team.
Threats
Scizor and Scyther can potentially sweep this team with Silver Wind and Aerial Ace. Psychic types like Espeon, Gardevoir, Starmie, and Alakazam are also really dangerous since they destroy Heracross and are evenly matched vs Latias and Starmie. These are some pretty gaping weaknesses so this team is definitely not suited for a long streak, but good enough to reach Gold with some luck and effort.
Team 2 (59 KOs)
Gengar + Metagross is something I’ve tried in the past in my attempt to get the Gold Symbol. It seems good in theory, but I remember not liking Gengar’s 1v1 potential and often being forced to trade, compared to a pokemon like CM Latias which is more likely to gain a decisive advantage right off the bat.
However, after seeing the success that a few players have had with Gengar, I decided to give it another try. This time around Gengar actually managed to win a good number of 1v1s so I found it to be really good. I guess matchup luck is what most of this facility boils down to anyway. I was surprised to make it to 59 on my first attempt.
Gengar @ Cheri Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Modest
IVs: 21/21-22/13/31/19/23
Thunderbolt
Ice Punch
Fire Punch
Destiny Bond
Destiny Bond is really nice, but sometimes it was annoying when the AI would use moves like Confuse Ray or Double Team and only attack on the 3rd round. Confuse Ray is especially annoying since it means you only have a 50% chance of getting the Destiny Bond off at all.
Metagross @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP, 236 Atk, 12 Def, 8 Spe
IVs: 30/31/4/5-6/25/16
Meteor Mash
Earthquake
Shadow Ball
Explosion
The extra bulk from my EV spread did come in handy in certain scenarios, but I would say that running a lot of speed for a faster Explosion is definitely the way to go.
Latios @ Twisted Spoon
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Mild
EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
Calm Mind
Psychic
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Decided to run Ice Beam over Dragon Claw for a better matchup vs Ground types that could beat Metagross.
How I Lost
I lost due to a hasty and inexcusable misplay. Latios was up 1v1 vs Gardevoir. Without even thinking or damage calcing, I click Ice Beam which is a 3HKO, while Gardevoir’s Ice Punch is a 2HKO. Had I Calm Minded, Ice Beam would have 2HKOed and Ice Punch would become a 3HKO. A little frustrating since I would have much preferred to lose due to hax than an egregious misplay like that.
Threats
Fire types are a huge threat to this team since Gengar usually can’t 1v1 them and they outspeed and incinerate Metagross. I was pretty lucky in not encountering many Fire types throughout the run.
However, after seeing the success that a few players have had with Gengar, I decided to give it another try. This time around Gengar actually managed to win a good number of 1v1s so I found it to be really good. I guess matchup luck is what most of this facility boils down to anyway. I was surprised to make it to 59 on my first attempt.
Gengar @ Cheri Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Modest
IVs: 21/21-22/13/31/19/23
Thunderbolt
Ice Punch
Fire Punch
Destiny Bond
Destiny Bond is really nice, but sometimes it was annoying when the AI would use moves like Confuse Ray or Double Team and only attack on the 3rd round. Confuse Ray is especially annoying since it means you only have a 50% chance of getting the Destiny Bond off at all.
Metagross @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP, 236 Atk, 12 Def, 8 Spe
IVs: 30/31/4/5-6/25/16
Meteor Mash
Earthquake
Shadow Ball
Explosion
The extra bulk from my EV spread did come in handy in certain scenarios, but I would say that running a lot of speed for a faster Explosion is definitely the way to go.
Latios @ Twisted Spoon
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Mild
EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
Calm Mind
Psychic
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Decided to run Ice Beam over Dragon Claw for a better matchup vs Ground types that could beat Metagross.
How I Lost
I lost due to a hasty and inexcusable misplay. Latios was up 1v1 vs Gardevoir. Without even thinking or damage calcing, I click Ice Beam which is a 3HKO, while Gardevoir’s Ice Punch is a 2HKO. Had I Calm Minded, Ice Beam would have 2HKOed and Ice Punch would become a 3HKO. A little frustrating since I would have much preferred to lose due to hax than an egregious misplay like that.
Threats
Fire types are a huge threat to this team since Gengar usually can’t 1v1 them and they outspeed and incinerate Metagross. I was pretty lucky in not encountering many Fire types throughout the run.
Attachments
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Yep, Multi Battles on Emerald are a complete hoax lol. Pretty sure Delilah stole that Machamp from Samir. It seems that you end up facing the pool of trainers from the first NPC and the game doesn't picks anything from the 2nd NPC.
Lately I've been talking a bunch with Adedede, after he asked my advice on his very cool Misdreavus Trick team. I couldn't help comparing it to "Mono Psychic Trick" in a lot of ways; all Trick teams need to have a solid plan against Metagross, STAB Double-Edge users and Muk at least.
Eventually, we improved the Grumpig set together and concluded Torment is better than Flash in general, especially if you have Protect on the second Pokemon. Since I was so happy with Espeon on Mono Psychic, I started wondering what would be its best replacement if the monotype restriction would be released.
This first had me thinking about the obvious Jolteon with the same moveset, since it outspeeds Crobat (a very dangerous lead for the Mono Psychic team since I can't use Trick in fear of CB Shadow Ball outspeeding the whole team). This still wouldn't really solve the Double-Edge problem. I didn't want to go Misdreavus, mainly since Charm is so much better than Growl against a load of physical Pokemon, especially Metagross.
Then came the wild idea of using a Dugtrio with minimized HP in order to reduce recoil damage from Double-Edge for my opponent. And so I came to the following team, which might very well be one of the best Trick teams until now in Level 50:
The mole Trick
Grumpig (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 212 HP / 204 Def / 92 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpA
- Trick
- Icy Wind
- Torment
- Skill Swap
This is the best Grumpig set in my opinion. Here's what it accomplishes:
Dugtrio @ Leftovers
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 44 Atk / 252 Def / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
IVs: 5 HP / 29 Atk / 29 SpA / 30 SpD
- Protect
- Substitute
- Charm
- Earthquake
The big surprise! The ability doesn't matter that much, but at least this ensures they won't oddly switch out. Note that Levitate Pokemon can be Skill Swapped in order to get this effect as well. It stalls dangerous moves like Crunch, Shadow Ball, Meteor Mash, Megahorn and Double-Edge, then Charms the opponent and usually lives a non-crit Struggle. If possible, this Dugtrio keeps health relatively high and switches to Latias instead of sacking itself.
So what's the catch? Well, this Dugtrio has an astonishingly low HP of 97, which is a two-digit perfect Leftovers number. This causes Double-Edge to only deal 8 HP in recoil damage. Together with the 60 HP they lose to Grumpig (at most), this leaves them with enough health for Latias to setup against their -2 Attack (or less) Struggle. That explains the 5 HP IV's. Surprisingly, Dugtrio lives through many moves after Charm when they don't crit, for example a Rhydon Earthquake when it should QC OHKO Grumpig in some manner. It also survives a +0 Struggle after outstalling Meteor Mash from Metagross, making sure it can use two Charms if it gets too many Attack boosts.
The first move I tried to use is Sand-Attack like the Espeon, but I realized Sand-Attack is not even that important if I have a more dependable strategy to prevent losing to Double-Edge.So instead, I gave it FISSURE to deal with last-poke Evasion-spamming Registeel, which my Latias doesn't reliably handle. It's viable to use Earthquake (without reduced Attack and putting the SpD EVs into Attack as well), since that finishes off Metagross if it haxes my Latias. Sadly, Earthquake probably won't win against Registeel-4 since it doesn't even 2HKO.
Note that there's only a (7/10)^8 = 0.058 chance of missing ALL Fissures against Registeel, and Dugtrio will easily get the opportunity to use them because of all its Thunder Wave and Double Team PP it will have to spam.
I stroke through everything before I realized Fissure + Charm is illegal on level 50, and then changed it to Earthquake after all. It does finish off Metagross reliably, and 3HKOes Registeel-4 at least. Another option is Sand-Attack, so Latias' Substitute is probably at full health before sweeping.
Huge thanks to Kommo-o for searching the best legal IVs possible on Gales Dugtrio for this particular set!
Latias (F) @ Dragon Fang
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Def / 180 Spe
Bold Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Recover
- Dragon Claw
Same Latias: it's extremely bulky and its Substitutes don't break to any CB Struggle without additional Attack boosts. That means it can start sweeping with 100% health and with a Substitute up against Charmed opponents. It doesn't outspeed everything, but its Substitutes take Starmie Ice Beams for example at +6. It also doesn't OHKO everything by a long shot, but in turn it easily survives QC Shadow Balls and Meteor Mashes from the likes of Snorlax and Metagross. I hope this tells you enough about Latias' bulk:
170+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 76 HP / 252+ Def Latias on a critical hit: 142-168 (86 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
255 Atk Metagross Shadow Ball vs. 76 HP / 252+ Def Latias on a critical hit: 149-176 (90.3 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Dragon Fang makes a lot of OHKOes more probable, but is most important against Agility Scizor, which it doesn't 2HKO without Dragon Fang. I always think of this item as giving Latias a +Def, +SpA nature at the same time.
There are some scary opponents, such as Calm Quick Claw OHKO Lapras, but it needs to be pretty lucky and if I have Grumpig and/or Dugtrio left the chances it gets to demolish my team are greatly minimized.
The team currently has a clean 252 streak in Battle Tower. I'm curious to hear your thoughts/concerns as usual, and I'm very happy to share the first serious team using a Dugtrio as far as I know!
Eventually, we improved the Grumpig set together and concluded Torment is better than Flash in general, especially if you have Protect on the second Pokemon. Since I was so happy with Espeon on Mono Psychic, I started wondering what would be its best replacement if the monotype restriction would be released.
This first had me thinking about the obvious Jolteon with the same moveset, since it outspeeds Crobat (a very dangerous lead for the Mono Psychic team since I can't use Trick in fear of CB Shadow Ball outspeeding the whole team). This still wouldn't really solve the Double-Edge problem. I didn't want to go Misdreavus, mainly since Charm is so much better than Growl against a load of physical Pokemon, especially Metagross.
Then came the wild idea of using a Dugtrio with minimized HP in order to reduce recoil damage from Double-Edge for my opponent. And so I came to the following team, which might very well be one of the best Trick teams until now in Level 50:
The mole Trick
Grumpig (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 212 HP / 204 Def / 92 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpA
- Trick
- Icy Wind
- Torment
- Skill Swap
This is the best Grumpig set in my opinion. Here's what it accomplishes:
- Outspeeds all Metagross sets and very importantly OHKOers and non-Speed invested DDMence as well;
- Survives CB Shadow Ball from all Metagross, and therewith also Meteor Mash and stuff like Quick Claw Double-Edge from Ursaring. The previous set was even bulkier on the physical side, to reduce Rhydon's 43.8% chance of OHKOing me with QC Megahorn to 37.5%, but the extra special bulk is also very welcome in general. If you want, it's perfectly possible to run 164 HP and 252 Def in order to reduce Megahorn's chances of OHKOing to 31.3%, and this also reduces even more Double-Edge damage, but this makes Grumpig a little more vulnerable to critical hit special moves;
- It gives Double-Edgers a maximum of 60 HP in damage; depending on whether they OHKO or not, it might be 59 or even 58 due to rounding.
Dugtrio @ Leftovers
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 44 Atk / 252 Def / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
IVs: 5 HP / 29 Atk / 29 SpA / 30 SpD
- Protect
- Substitute
- Charm
- Earthquake
The big surprise! The ability doesn't matter that much, but at least this ensures they won't oddly switch out. Note that Levitate Pokemon can be Skill Swapped in order to get this effect as well. It stalls dangerous moves like Crunch, Shadow Ball, Meteor Mash, Megahorn and Double-Edge, then Charms the opponent and usually lives a non-crit Struggle. If possible, this Dugtrio keeps health relatively high and switches to Latias instead of sacking itself.
So what's the catch? Well, this Dugtrio has an astonishingly low HP of 97, which is a two-digit perfect Leftovers number. This causes Double-Edge to only deal 8 HP in recoil damage. Together with the 60 HP they lose to Grumpig (at most), this leaves them with enough health for Latias to setup against their -2 Attack (or less) Struggle. That explains the 5 HP IV's. Surprisingly, Dugtrio lives through many moves after Charm when they don't crit, for example a Rhydon Earthquake when it should QC OHKO Grumpig in some manner. It also survives a +0 Struggle after outstalling Meteor Mash from Metagross, making sure it can use two Charms if it gets too many Attack boosts.
The first move I tried to use is Sand-Attack like the Espeon, but I realized Sand-Attack is not even that important if I have a more dependable strategy to prevent losing to Double-Edge.
Note that there's only a (7/10)^8 = 0.058 chance of missing ALL Fissures against Registeel, and Dugtrio will easily get the opportunity to use them because of all its Thunder Wave and Double Team PP it will have to spam.
I stroke through everything before I realized Fissure + Charm is illegal on level 50, and then changed it to Earthquake after all. It does finish off Metagross reliably, and 3HKOes Registeel-4 at least. Another option is Sand-Attack, so Latias' Substitute is probably at full health before sweeping.
Huge thanks to Kommo-o for searching the best legal IVs possible on Gales Dugtrio for this particular set!
Latias (F) @ Dragon Fang
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Def / 180 Spe
Bold Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Recover
- Dragon Claw
Same Latias: it's extremely bulky and its Substitutes don't break to any CB Struggle without additional Attack boosts. That means it can start sweeping with 100% health and with a Substitute up against Charmed opponents. It doesn't outspeed everything, but its Substitutes take Starmie Ice Beams for example at +6. It also doesn't OHKO everything by a long shot, but in turn it easily survives QC Shadow Balls and Meteor Mashes from the likes of Snorlax and Metagross. I hope this tells you enough about Latias' bulk:
170+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 76 HP / 252+ Def Latias on a critical hit: 142-168 (86 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
255 Atk Metagross Shadow Ball vs. 76 HP / 252+ Def Latias on a critical hit: 149-176 (90.3 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Dragon Fang makes a lot of OHKOes more probable, but is most important against Agility Scizor, which it doesn't 2HKO without Dragon Fang. I always think of this item as giving Latias a +Def, +SpA nature at the same time.
There are some scary opponents, such as Calm Quick Claw OHKO Lapras, but it needs to be pretty lucky and if I have Grumpig and/or Dugtrio left the chances it gets to demolish my team are greatly minimized.
The team currently has a clean 252 streak in Battle Tower. I'm curious to hear your thoughts/concerns as usual, and I'm very happy to share the first serious team using a Dugtrio as far as I know!
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I'm burnin' through the sky, yeah! 630 degrees!!
That's why they call me Mister Fahrenheit
I'm travelling at the speed of light!
Currently on 224 rooms myself. I will catch you up, and I will beat you. I swear it by the old gods and the new.
As long as I get to keep 2nd place! Anyways, I tried CB Steelix in the Pike. I actually lost @69 on my first run lol. It's not that Steelix isn't good, but Metagross does it's job better. I'm probably going to try another run with something else in it's spot.
Regarding Steelix, an offensive one is also not as bulky as I'm used to. The calm one can take hits in a pinch, but this one is noticeably less bulky. This is a bit of a problem when Steelix is very slow and makes double battles a little dangerous.
Strategy for this team is the same as last time with metagross. Take the nostaliga/wild rooms. Avoid battles as much as you can.
https://pokepast.es/7685f0d0aa685673
Attachments
Cool! Yeah I would join. While the idea of generation-restriction is cool, I think it might be a little too restricting as to teambuilding options, and maybe also too repetitive. We could use other "equivalence relations" on the set of Pokemon, such as color, EVs given on beating them as wilds, height, weight, Exp. Class, catch rate, et cetera, varying between the challenges.
Just reached 70 wins in the Tower with THICK GYARADOS. I'm planning on streaming it at some point. This team was inspired by Adedede's Misdreavus+DD Tar and Actaeon's Grumpig trick.
(* insert Grumpig text from Actaeon)
* 252+ Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 212 HP / 204 Def Grumpig: 66-78 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Edit: Just pulled a trick on Regirock+ skillswap on Lead Regirock. Absolutely beautiful.
Latias is the second member of the trio. It's Kommo-O's Latias, with one small change in speed (mine has a 31 speed iv). Latias performs the crippler role and does a fantastic job.
Ideas for Cripplers: Steelix, Zapdos, Espeon, Jolteon, currently trying out Ninetales.
Gyarados is the sweeper on this team. Regarding Gyarados's set, here's the explanation.
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 211-249 (102.9 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 96-113 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 145-171 (87.8 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
3. 8 speed to out speed the neutral base 100s at +1
4. Dumped the rest in defense (to limit struggle damage and easily set up on a tormented/tricked foe)
This Gyarados is meant to set up to +6. As such, attack and phys def are the most important stats. Speed isn't necessary as t-wave support and DD will allow you to be faster than everything.
Playstyle: trick turn 1, if foe is locked into stat up move (double team, SD, CM) or Earthquake, switch in Gyarados immediately and set up. Otherwise, debuff first with Latias.
Latias Cripple set.
https://pokepast.es/0422ecf469415aef
Threatlist (will be updated as more threats appear)
QC Fissure/ Rhydon on turn 1
Zapdos (all sets have a good chance to live a +6 hit)
Sticky hold pokemon (Swalot and Muk, which also has explosion)
Heracross (switch into Gyarados for intimidate and then Latias on a -1). Hope it doesn't crit as you charm.
Stalling out dragon claw on choice locked Latias/Latios. Potentially dangerous.
Choice locked shadow ball/megahorn users
Choice locked DE users (possible to die quickly to recoil)
Turn 1 miss with trick.
Edit: Definite discussion between Mence and Gyara. Mence has higher speed and attack, which is real nice. However, there are more bright powder/focus band users that screw over a full set up Mence than Gyarados. In particular, you are guaranteed to run into one on the Anabel round (Latios), which Gyarados can easily handle.
https://pokepast.es/dd178c6413df7b9a
Thick Salamence
https://pokepast.es/ffe94d9526f68ed1
(* insert Grumpig text from Actaeon)
- Out speeds all Metagross sets and very importantly OHKOers and non-Speed invested DDMence as well;
- Survives CB Shadow Ball from all Metagross, and there with also Meteor Mash and stuff like Quick Claw Double-Edge from Ursaring.
* 252+ Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 212 HP / 204 Def Grumpig: 66-78 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Edit: Just pulled a trick on Regirock+ skillswap on Lead Regirock. Absolutely beautiful.
Latias is the second member of the trio. It's Kommo-O's Latias, with one small change in speed (mine has a 31 speed iv). Latias performs the crippler role and does a fantastic job.
Ideas for Cripplers: Steelix, Zapdos, Espeon, Jolteon, currently trying out Ninetales.
Gyarados is the sweeper on this team. Regarding Gyarados's set, here's the explanation.
- 56 hp to reach 177 hp (16+1 leftovers number)
- Maximum attack (needs near max already anyways for damage calcs)
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 211-249 (102.9 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 96-113 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 145-171 (87.8 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
3. 8 speed to out speed the neutral base 100s at +1
4. Dumped the rest in defense (to limit struggle damage and easily set up on a tormented/tricked foe)
This Gyarados is meant to set up to +6. As such, attack and phys def are the most important stats. Speed isn't necessary as t-wave support and DD will allow you to be faster than everything.
Playstyle: trick turn 1, if foe is locked into stat up move (double team, SD, CM) or Earthquake, switch in Gyarados immediately and set up. Otherwise, debuff first with Latias.
Latias Cripple set.
https://pokepast.es/0422ecf469415aef
Threatlist (will be updated as more threats appear)
QC Fissure/ Rhydon on turn 1
Zapdos (all sets have a good chance to live a +6 hit)
Sticky hold pokemon (Swalot and Muk, which also has explosion)
Heracross (switch into Gyarados for intimidate and then Latias on a -1). Hope it doesn't crit as you charm.
Stalling out dragon claw on choice locked Latias/Latios. Potentially dangerous.
Choice locked shadow ball/megahorn users
Choice locked DE users (possible to die quickly to recoil)
Turn 1 miss with trick.
Edit: Definite discussion between Mence and Gyara. Mence has higher speed and attack, which is real nice. However, there are more bright powder/focus band users that screw over a full set up Mence than Gyarados. In particular, you are guaranteed to run into one on the Anabel round (Latios), which Gyarados can easily handle.
https://pokepast.es/dd178c6413df7b9a
Thick Salamence
https://pokepast.es/ffe94d9526f68ed1
Attachments
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Thanks for the feedback, Actaeon and Kommo-o. I tried to explain some of my choices better below, but if you (or someone else) doesn't agree with it or has some other suggestions for the ruleset I'm of course happy to listen and consider them.
I definitely see the benefit of changing the restrictions for each challenge concering the option variety. The reason I think it is still a good idea to stick with the same "equivalence relation" (be it the generation or any of the other things you mentioned) for the whole challenge, is that people who want to RNG their Pokemon in-game don't have to start RNGing a new pool of Pokemon every two weeks but only have to do that once.
The idea with the rewards sounds awesome!
I know that the PVP UU banlist I suggested doesn't neccecssarily correspond to the strength of the Pokemon in the Battle Facilities. The thing is, if we try to create our own banlist we will probably end up with a lot of discussion that I'd rather avoid (I for example would include much more than just Lati@s, like Blissey, Chansey, Suicune, Metagross, Salamence and Slaking) that ends up creating another issue that we first need to solve before we can start with the challenge. Also, I kind of fear that a randomized list could lead to balance issues. The advantage of going with a list of rather weak Pokemon is that there will probably be no "endless" streaks, which will make the whole ordeal a lot less time-consuming for everyone.
I definitely see the benefit of changing the restrictions for each challenge concering the option variety. The reason I think it is still a good idea to stick with the same "equivalence relation" (be it the generation or any of the other things you mentioned) for the whole challenge, is that people who want to RNG their Pokemon in-game don't have to start RNGing a new pool of Pokemon every two weeks but only have to do that once.
The idea with the rewards sounds awesome!
I know that the PVP UU banlist I suggested doesn't neccecssarily correspond to the strength of the Pokemon in the Battle Facilities. The thing is, if we try to create our own banlist we will probably end up with a lot of discussion that I'd rather avoid (I for example would include much more than just Lati@s, like Blissey, Chansey, Suicune, Metagross, Salamence and Slaking) that ends up creating another issue that we first need to solve before we can start with the challenge. Also, I kind of fear that a randomized list could lead to balance issues. The advantage of going with a list of rather weak Pokemon is that there will probably be no "endless" streaks, which will make the whole ordeal a lot less time-consuming for everyone.
I already got a funny challenge idea regardless of the rules by the way: Record a 7 trainer (post 49) streak in the Battle Tower. Easy right?
But the player who does it with the least STAT TOTAL (not Basestat total) wins. I think this will deliver some amazing replay videos.
No rng abuse ofc to force endless Brightpowder misses or anything.
I also have an idea for a challange. Make some trainer specific teams like: Red's team consisting of let's say Charizard/Blastoise/Venusaur or Ash's team that include Pikachu/Snorlax/Charizard etc and try to beat some facilities. We will first make a list with all the eligible Trainer's teams (which means decide what Pokemon will be in each and every one), then we will rate them and each one of us will use one of those. Each Silver Symbol will give let's say 5 points each Gold 20 and every streak up to X 50 and we will post our results. Trainer's can be chosen from both the Game and the anime.
Why not basestat? That sounds really interesting too, makes you use weaker lower BST mons.
Also maybe some NFE streaks? Might be interesting.
You're basically denying Kanto players from using Cloyster and Magneton, two very mediocre Pokemon on Frontier play, from being used on this challenge because they are very good in PvP. As a matter of fact we already had this discussion already and many people (who are not even active anymore in here) left their opinions and I ranked the Pokemon according to the input I had from the community. Considering that there was no additional discussion regarding the tierlist I made, I don't think we'll end up with a lot of discussion even if people wanted to revise and update the tierlist. We can probably just use the tierlist that I created in case you actually wanted to implement a banlist? It's much more accurate as to how these Pokemon perform in Frontier play and while it may not be perfect, it's based on what we do here.
We're limiting Pokemon by regions, right? I don't think there should be any concerns on balancing because you can't partner Latios with Suicune or Blissey with Salamence. There's already a limit that will force players to think on alternatives and see how they can achieve results but without using the typical combinations that are present on leaderboard teams. Just check the leaderboard and see how many teams present with Vaporeon and Milotic achieved in comparison to the teams that used Suicune.
I don't think this would be the case. As a matter of fact, making streaks with NFEs can be harder since they will require multiple attempts. I'm not saying this because I have something against using "UU or NU Pokemon" but mostly because I don't want to be forced to breed new Pokemon every week that I'm really not going to use for later. Personally, I'm against genning and that's a philosophy of mine that I'm not going to change regardless. So basically I would spend a lot of time to RNG, breed and EV train Pokemon only for a single occasion and I'm sure there's plenty of people in here who don't want to hack either (hence why I created the Bank of Hoenn server).
Additionally to this, we're setting a time limit right? Therefore I don't think there will be any "endless" streaks even if they are still active. If players were to present how far their team made it, we would only take the streak number achieved during that timeframe. Additionally, there might be people who might have college or a job in between, so people who actually drafted an +S tier Pokemon in their team are not necessarily guaranteed to make big numbers depending on how much free time they can spare for this competition.
I think your tierlist will be fine as well, totally forgot about that one :) But I do think that we need some kind of banlist: As an example in Gen 3, my point wasn't that teams including Latios would be too strong by themselves (because as you pointed out they might have to rely on weaker team-partners than in an unrestricted ruleset), but rather too strong in comparison to the other teams than can't use Latios, because there's simply nothing comparable in performance over all 6 Facilities to it. Same holds for Blissey and Suicune in Gen 2 , Chansey in Gen 1 and to a lesser extent also most of the stuff in the S rank of your list (of course provided we even go with a draft system that grants exclusive rights to certain Pokemon; but if we don't then probably everyone in Gen 3 will use Latios which might be balanced but leads to rather boring teams in my opinion). So my proposal would be to ban the S+ rank, S rank and Chansey, but I'm also fine with only S+ banned if people think that is more fun.
That sounds like a really fun challenge as well, the first ideas that come to my mind are things like the Endeavour low level Smeargle you talked about in your Monotype Normal post or even something like the suicide Gastly I used in the NU Arena challenge. Shedinja might work as well, but it sounds very tough to build a functioning team around it given the restrictions. Really curious to see what you come up with, maybe I'll try to build something for this challenge as well.
After taking a quick look at the leaderboard, so far either my Grumpig/Smeargle/Aerodactyl or Breloom/Persian/Gengar team seem to take the title for lowest stat team with a serious streak, but I'm sure you can do much better than that :)
I would only disagree on the Chansey ban because it's a worse version of Blissey and not as over-centralizing as it can be. Blissey gains an extra +30 BST on Special Defense and it does quite a difference:
- 255+ SpA Houndoom Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Sun on a critical hit: 336-396 (94.1 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
- 0+ SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Rain on a critical hit: 214-252 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 0+ SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Rain: 107-126 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (Basically if Chansey eats a critical hit Hydro Pump on rain, it has a good chance of getting 2HKO'd)
- 255+ SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. -1 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 125-148 (35 - 41.4%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (assuming you get an SpD drop, there's actually a good chance that you can lose if you get hit by a crit or another SpD drop).
- 255+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Mega Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 309-364 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (Blissey actually survives this and it can Softboiled hoping for a miss).
Chansey has a chance to lose to special attackers if crits happen and the extra Special Defense, Speed and Special Attack that Blissey gains adds a lot more versatility on Blissey's game. I can understand the concern considering that Chansey is the closest thing to what Blissey can do, but I'd argue that it's one dimensional and more vulnerable. With the options on Kanto being unable to either use a strong Flying STAB similar to what Salamence can do or Psychic types with crappy physical Defense being unable to switch into CH Cross Chops, I'd say Chansey deserves a chance.
Been hard at work in the Pike with a slightly different team from my last attempt and I've cracked 600 rooms! It took me 3 tries but I'm happy to have gotten there. The streak is still active so that's all I'll say until I break it.
Having got that far I decided to take a break and opted to do a fun run on the only format that I've never tried before: Battle Palace Doubles.
Only one other person had tried this, so I figured why not get my name up on the leaderboard. What made me really curious about this particular challenge was the Bulbapedia article for the Palace, which pointed out an interesting quirk I had not been aware of: the Pokemon's nature actually determines which foe it targets based on their remaining HP. This combined with the garbage AI in earlier rounds actually results in all sorts of amusing instances from opponents, such as Ghost-type moves being used against Normal-types.
So, intending to have some fun, I quickly threw together a somewhat slapdash team:
Granbull @ Choice Band
Body Slam
Earthquake
Brick Break
Rock Slide
252 HP/Attack, 6 Defence (Hardy)
Why Granbull? There's no particular reason, other than Intimidate and the fact it pairs reasonably well with Latios. I opted for Body Slam to give it a little more longevity; even with Intimidate factored in, its bulk is pretty unimpressive even with maxed HP. As with my Singles run in the Palace earlier on, Choice Band can rig the odds in your favour if you get locked into the right move.
Latios @ Lum Berry
Psychic
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Dragon Claw
252 Sp.Atk/Speed, 6 HP (Hasty)
The glue of the team. There isn't much to say about it that hasn't been said before and better. As you'll know if you've played it, Hasty is a great nature in the Palace.
Tauros @ Chesto Berry
Body Slam
Hidden Power (Ghost)
Rest
Toxic
252 HP/Sp.Def, 6 Defence (Impish)
I had initially planned to just use your bog-standard attacker Tauros. However, N1c69's idea from a while back about a defensive Tauros got me curious about how well it could fare as a bulky backup mon. Surprisingly, it's not all that terrible - though I do think it's worth testing in a different facility. HP Ghost was in an effort to prevent it from becoming Gengar bait; It's movepool is so barren it doesn't really miss not having other options. Ordinarily I wouldn't have opted for such a mon in the backup slot but the fact that Doubles in the Palace require 3 Pokemon rather than 4 actually works in my favour here as it's much less likely that Tauros will get ganged up on by the time it's out.
(seriously, have I mentioned yet how punitive only being allowed 3 Pokemon in a Double Battle is? Because it totally is!)
I did a single run with this team (playing at level 50 because Battle Palace is difficult enough without having to deal with Dragonite and Tyranitar thank you very much) and made it to a fairly respectable 36 wins before being wrecked by a Milotic + Vaporeon combination which Ice Beamed all three team members to death. This got me thinking about whether there might be a more optimal third member of the team. After briefly considering Regice, I decided to switch Tauros for Kangaskhan, because while they have similar stats Kanga has a much more expansive movepool.
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Body Slam
Aerial Ace
Shadow Ball
Brick Break
6 HP, 252 Attack/Speed (Hardy)
A defensive spread was an option here but would leave it miserably weak. With minimal investment, Kanga is still reliably bulky. It's still not a top-tier mon by any means, but it's one of my favourites so I gave it a go nonetheless.
This new lineup proved much more optimal than the last, and my second go resulted in me making it all the way to 49 wins. Unfortunately battle #50 finished my run - again by way of Ice Beam thanks to a bulky Porygon2 and Kangaskhan repeatedly being unable to use any moves.
Considering how much I dislike the Palace, this was a pretty enjoyable challenge all told! Was hoping to nudge bobdat off the top spot but I'll happily take second place for now.
Stay tuned for the outcome of my attempt to reclaim the top spot in the Battle Pike...
Having got that far I decided to take a break and opted to do a fun run on the only format that I've never tried before: Battle Palace Doubles.
Only one other person had tried this, so I figured why not get my name up on the leaderboard. What made me really curious about this particular challenge was the Bulbapedia article for the Palace, which pointed out an interesting quirk I had not been aware of: the Pokemon's nature actually determines which foe it targets based on their remaining HP. This combined with the garbage AI in earlier rounds actually results in all sorts of amusing instances from opponents, such as Ghost-type moves being used against Normal-types.
So, intending to have some fun, I quickly threw together a somewhat slapdash team:
Granbull @ Choice Band
Body Slam
Earthquake
Brick Break
Rock Slide
252 HP/Attack, 6 Defence (Hardy)
Why Granbull? There's no particular reason, other than Intimidate and the fact it pairs reasonably well with Latios. I opted for Body Slam to give it a little more longevity; even with Intimidate factored in, its bulk is pretty unimpressive even with maxed HP. As with my Singles run in the Palace earlier on, Choice Band can rig the odds in your favour if you get locked into the right move.
Latios @ Lum Berry
Psychic
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Dragon Claw
252 Sp.Atk/Speed, 6 HP (Hasty)
The glue of the team. There isn't much to say about it that hasn't been said before and better. As you'll know if you've played it, Hasty is a great nature in the Palace.
Tauros @ Chesto Berry
Body Slam
Hidden Power (Ghost)
Rest
Toxic
252 HP/Sp.Def, 6 Defence (Impish)
I had initially planned to just use your bog-standard attacker Tauros. However, N1c69's idea from a while back about a defensive Tauros got me curious about how well it could fare as a bulky backup mon. Surprisingly, it's not all that terrible - though I do think it's worth testing in a different facility. HP Ghost was in an effort to prevent it from becoming Gengar bait; It's movepool is so barren it doesn't really miss not having other options. Ordinarily I wouldn't have opted for such a mon in the backup slot but the fact that Doubles in the Palace require 3 Pokemon rather than 4 actually works in my favour here as it's much less likely that Tauros will get ganged up on by the time it's out.
(seriously, have I mentioned yet how punitive only being allowed 3 Pokemon in a Double Battle is? Because it totally is!)
I did a single run with this team (playing at level 50 because Battle Palace is difficult enough without having to deal with Dragonite and Tyranitar thank you very much) and made it to a fairly respectable 36 wins before being wrecked by a Milotic + Vaporeon combination which Ice Beamed all three team members to death. This got me thinking about whether there might be a more optimal third member of the team. After briefly considering Regice, I decided to switch Tauros for Kangaskhan, because while they have similar stats Kanga has a much more expansive movepool.
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Body Slam
Aerial Ace
Shadow Ball
Brick Break
6 HP, 252 Attack/Speed (Hardy)
A defensive spread was an option here but would leave it miserably weak. With minimal investment, Kanga is still reliably bulky. It's still not a top-tier mon by any means, but it's one of my favourites so I gave it a go nonetheless.
This new lineup proved much more optimal than the last, and my second go resulted in me making it all the way to 49 wins. Unfortunately battle #50 finished my run - again by way of Ice Beam thanks to a bulky Porygon2 and Kangaskhan repeatedly being unable to use any moves.
Considering how much I dislike the Palace, this was a pretty enjoyable challenge all told! Was hoping to nudge bobdat off the top spot but I'll happily take second place for now.
Stay tuned for the outcome of my attempt to reclaim the top spot in the Battle Pike...
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I have a question about this if you don't mind me asking. Does the streak has to be active or ended?