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Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII
- Thread starter DHR-107
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Nah, Z-Moves seem tame all things considered.
If anything, the idea of the potential Gen 1-7 transferred Pokemon keeping their type could break it.
1) No one is going to use Normal-type Clefable. We didn't before*, why start now? In fact, nothing from Generation I would benefit with their Generation I typing if it changed in Gen II (Magneton) or VI (All the Fairies). So don't worry about it.
2) We aren't worring about that because it seems highly unlikely. Yeah, the "leak" has gotten a few things right, but nothing that luck and analyzing the information we already have couldn't have figured out. And don't forget, it said that Ninetales would be FIRE/Fairy, when Ninetales-A is ICE/Fairy.
*It was RU in Generation V.
One move that uses up an item slot and can only be used once per battle is going to break the game? Really?
True, but what I dislike about the idea is a potential lack of readability. I personally don't believe that you should ever have to guess an opponent's type, information like that should always readable by just what Pokemon you're looking at. If they don't have visible differences, having TWO Clefables that look the exact same would be a horrible idea.
Again, it's not going to happen. Especially since that would be extra coding for GF to keep them their old types and to maintain said type if they evolve. There's no reason for it.
I am pretty sure that the Alola Forms will be visually distinct from their outside world forms, meaning you can tell what type it is by looking at it. I mean, look at what we have so far: Wtf Exeggutor, cool white Vulpix/(9)tales, and Igloo Sandshrew that evolves into icicle Sandslash.
Plus I also doubt that all Gen 1 Pokemon will get this form, so it seems unlike we will see two different kinds of Clefable. And finally: even then, with all the push to make competitive more accessible, I doubt they would add in this complication
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But anyway.... Alola Tropius anyone?
I mean, it's already tropical, but it's such a neglected 'mon.
I mean, it's already tropical, but it's such a neglected 'mon.
Also, the leak I'm talking about didn't say that they were Alola forms, just that Pokemon transferred from Gen 1 would keep their Gen 1 types.
Further thoughts on Alola Pokemon:
While I personally wasn't a huge fan of Pokemon Insurgence (the significantly higher difficulty made it so that 90% of what you would be doing is grinding) one concept about that game I absolutely loved was the Delta Pokemon. Their designs took an interesting spin on most of the classic Pokemon designs and remodeled them so that they still display classical Pokemon qualities while also being completely fresh due to unique typings and designs to match that typing (in addition to a completely new level up moveset). It was one of the best concepts any Pokemon game introduced so I'm glad that the devs of Sun and Moon took inspiration from it and added a similar feature in their games in the form of Alola Pokemon.
For the Most part, the Alola Pokemon we did get seem to be very similar to the Delta Pokemon in Insurgence (with the exception of Exeggutor) due to having a completely different typing, level up moves, and slightly tweaked designs. That being said, I feel that pretty much every Pokemon that does get an Alola form will not change as radically as Delta Pokemon if Exeggutor is anything to go by and some will most likely retain certain aspects of their original form.
Also Legit question: Why do so many People think Sandslash's new typing is worse than its original defensively. Yeah, it gets 2 4x weaknesses and a weakness to ground, but it also gets significantly more resistances, namely key resistences to Ice, bug, grass, Flying, normal, and Fairy as well as an immunity to Toxic. I feel the trade off here is well worth it, especially since Mono ground hardly resisted anything relevant apart from electric and Rock.
While I personally wasn't a huge fan of Pokemon Insurgence (the significantly higher difficulty made it so that 90% of what you would be doing is grinding) one concept about that game I absolutely loved was the Delta Pokemon. Their designs took an interesting spin on most of the classic Pokemon designs and remodeled them so that they still display classical Pokemon qualities while also being completely fresh due to unique typings and designs to match that typing (in addition to a completely new level up moveset). It was one of the best concepts any Pokemon game introduced so I'm glad that the devs of Sun and Moon took inspiration from it and added a similar feature in their games in the form of Alola Pokemon.
For the Most part, the Alola Pokemon we did get seem to be very similar to the Delta Pokemon in Insurgence (with the exception of Exeggutor) due to having a completely different typing, level up moves, and slightly tweaked designs. That being said, I feel that pretty much every Pokemon that does get an Alola form will not change as radically as Delta Pokemon if Exeggutor is anything to go by and some will most likely retain certain aspects of their original form.
Also Legit question: Why do so many People think Sandslash's new typing is worse than its original defensively. Yeah, it gets 2 4x weaknesses and a weakness to ground, but it also gets significantly more resistances, namely key resistences to Ice, bug, grass, Flying, normal, and Fairy as well as an immunity to Toxic. I feel the trade off here is well worth it, especially since Mono ground hardly resisted anything relevant apart from electric and Rock.
I like how old Sandshrew is both strong and weak against its new Alolan form. I guess if it's faster, then it wins in evolutionary terms. No-one transfer any old Sandshrews from Kanto, it will wreak havoc on the island ecosystem.
I love new Exeggutor, by the way. I hope they do that with more Pokemon. I'll be very disappointed if I don't get a Steel/Dragon Golem with huge wibbly legs and Flower Veil.
Also, has anyone mentioned Megas yet? What's going on with those guys...?*
*I'mjokingpleasedon'tharmme
I love new Exeggutor, by the way. I hope they do that with more Pokemon. I'll be very disappointed if I don't get a Steel/Dragon Golem with huge wibbly legs and Flower Veil.
Also, has anyone mentioned Megas yet? What's going on with those guys...?*
*I'mjokingpleasedon'tharmme
Remember when the Deino Line was originally gonna be Cyborg Dragons?
Alolan Hydreigon could be Steel/Dragon!
Alolan Hydreigon could be Steel/Dragon!
I don't think Alola forms are going to replace Megas, thinking about it. From what we've seen, two of the three fully evolved Alola forms are completely different from their classical counterpart, especially Ninetales. These wouldn't have been Megas before as there was always something of the original 'mon when there was a type change. Charizard-X stayed Fire, for instance. It's possible that Alola forms will mostly be used for something completely different, Exeggutor not withstanding.
Sandshrew-A and Sandslash-A are slower.
Can we cool it on the unconfirmed Aloha-form pokemon? It's just wishlisting.
I keep going over the rules of Z-moves, and does it mean one Z-move for the whole team (like a mega pokemon) or just once per Z-stone held item? So if I equipped a whole party with them, you'd get 6 Z-moves (one for each monster)?
The wording they used it sounds like it could go either way, and it doesn't help that Z-moves seem to be a spiritual successor to the Unova elemental gems. Or am I misinterpreting this?
I keep going over the rules of Z-moves, and does it mean one Z-move for the whole team (like a mega pokemon) or just once per Z-stone held item? So if I equipped a whole party with them, you'd get 6 Z-moves (one for each monster)?
The wording they used it sounds like it could go either way, and it doesn't help that Z-moves seem to be a spiritual successor to the Unova elemental gems. Or am I misinterpreting this?
Unfortunately I still dislike the concept but I also believe that Z Moves only be In Game only. It is just too much. That would be OP as fuck. But the game itself looks pretty big to me. And I hope there will he some battle facilities like the ones on Emerald where you can use competitive Pokmon to battle there.
The thing I'm the most curious about is how these new forms will work... These look like forms that can't be switched to and from. So is the way it will work is that catching a vulpix in the new region will always be the ice breed, and you'll need to send over one from an old game to get the old fire kind? What about breeding? Does a fire mother make a fire offspring while an ice mother makes an ice offspring, or something like that?
If these forms are considered the same species with the same dex number, it's a lot more complicated than past forms. Pokedex descriptions will either need one for each kind, or generic descriptions of things all types have in common. They apparently have different level up moves since fire vulpix can't learn any ice moves. Could they share egg moves? Imagine icetales getting heat wave, or if there are new moves firetales can get thanks to icetales.
The fact that they are so different from type to move pool to possibly even evolution method makes it seem like they would have done better to just make them new pokemon that are just closely related to the past ones. Mainly because of one thing that will be annoying: there are times you won't be able to use both on a team despite them essentially being completely different pokemon! Ninetales is one of my favorite pokemon, and I've always found great uses for it especially since it got it's hidden ability of drought. Imagine if ice ninetales has snow warning as its hidden ability. I can already think of plenty of uses for it alongside my current ninetales. But if I try to use them in something like the battle maison, I'll just be told, "You can't use two of the same pokemon," to which I'll be griping, "These two guys are completely different pokemon!"
On a side note, I must say I'm just ecstatic about the fact that we can finally increase our pokemons IVs. I've been waiting years for that! Having to spend untold hours biking and soft resetting over that one single IV point will finally be a thing of the past! There are countless pokemon scattered through my old games (dream forest, wonder cards, etc) that I didn't have time to seek perfection from that I can finally go back and bring along now that I don't need to worry about anything besides the nature.
If these forms are considered the same species with the same dex number, it's a lot more complicated than past forms. Pokedex descriptions will either need one for each kind, or generic descriptions of things all types have in common. They apparently have different level up moves since fire vulpix can't learn any ice moves. Could they share egg moves? Imagine icetales getting heat wave, or if there are new moves firetales can get thanks to icetales.
The fact that they are so different from type to move pool to possibly even evolution method makes it seem like they would have done better to just make them new pokemon that are just closely related to the past ones. Mainly because of one thing that will be annoying: there are times you won't be able to use both on a team despite them essentially being completely different pokemon! Ninetales is one of my favorite pokemon, and I've always found great uses for it especially since it got it's hidden ability of drought. Imagine if ice ninetales has snow warning as its hidden ability. I can already think of plenty of uses for it alongside my current ninetales. But if I try to use them in something like the battle maison, I'll just be told, "You can't use two of the same pokemon," to which I'll be griping, "These two guys are completely different pokemon!"
On a side note, I must say I'm just ecstatic about the fact that we can finally increase our pokemons IVs. I've been waiting years for that! Having to spend untold hours biking and soft resetting over that one single IV point will finally be a thing of the past! There are countless pokemon scattered through my old games (dream forest, wonder cards, etc) that I didn't have time to seek perfection from that I can finally go back and bring along now that I don't need to worry about anything besides the nature.
I'm going to assume that trading to Gen 6 will be a no-go, and trading to Gen 7 from 6 will be a one-way ticket.
The cost/usefulness ratio seems to be much higher than Mega Evolution, probably due to being more readily available. I don't think a one-time super move is going to be as influential as a persistent super form during a match. From what little info we have, it honestly sounds like a competitive gimmick (at least for Singles).
I don't think there's any basis for this. PVP is a big part of Pokémon, and they wouldn't advertise a major battling-related feature like this if they were just going to exclude it from the most replayable part of the game.
Besides, if they did exclude it from PVP, they'd probably tell us.
Backwards compatibility via Poké Bank might be possible in a similar vein to the Time Machine (or whatever it was called) that allowed Gen II to trade with Gen I, but this is just conjecture right now.
Again, it's once per battle and you lose the abilty to hold and item (without boosted stats or anything that Megas have). Even if all six 'mons get to use their Z-Move once per battle, that's still not "OP as fuck". Powerful, yes, but not "OP as fuck".
Think of them like Wormadam. Each Wormadam is locked into whichever form Burmy was in when it evolved the form it was in when you caught it (if it's a wild Wormadam from the start). But they are all the same 'mon. Same with Shellos/Gastrodon.
Here's how it will likely work:
Same National Dex number
Female determines Species AND Form (same with Shellos, for example)
The real question is things like egg moves.
If Aggron and Bastiodon is anything to go by having two quad weaknesses to very common offensive types is a deathblow to defensive pokemon. Sandslash ice has that...in addition to a ground weakness, another very common offensive type. Aggron can still be used offensively though so it remains to seen how well sandslash fares in that regard.
Z-Moves sound like a glorified version of Gen 5's gems, except you only get to use it once per battle. I suspect they'll be strong in official formats, but it wouldn't surprise me if some Smogon OU teams just plain excluded them.
Big question is which ones will be Physical or Special. I suspect that it'll correspond to their Gen 1-3 pairings, a bit with Fairy, Flying, and Ghost being Special, and Dark physical perhaps? Time will tell.
Big question is which ones will be Physical or Special. I suspect that it'll correspond to their Gen 1-3 pairings, a bit with Fairy, Flying, and Ghost being Special, and Dark physical perhaps? Time will tell.
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If they share the same name, they'll share the same Dex, which means they are the same species.
On the 1% chance that this thought doesn't occur to anyone else - I think Z-move being physical or special can simply be based on the move that it replaces. Pikachu with Thunderbolt? It's special. Pikachu with Volt Tackle? It's physical. I feel like this would be cleaner than basing it on base stats or special vs. physical Z-crystals or EVs.
Then again, maybe not. What would be interesting is what would happen if the player is ten-year-old me who teaches her Pokemon multiple moves of the same type. What if Pikachu has both?
On the Alolan forms - my first thought when I saw Ninetales' new typing is "hi bullet punch, gg." Ironic given Ninetales' original resist to steel. Beautiful design though, even if silver fur and blue accents have already been done with shiny Ninetales.
I'm glad that GF went the Alolan form route to refresh older Pokemon, instead of giving everyone a Mega Evolution. (OTOH, did they really have to give all three lines we saw 4x weaknesses? Heh.)
Really excited for the game. B2W2 was the last game I was really impressed by in terms of storyline gameplay, and Sun & Moon may redefine expectations even more.
Then again, maybe not. What would be interesting is what would happen if the player is ten-year-old me who teaches her Pokemon multiple moves of the same type. What if Pikachu has both?
On the Alolan forms - my first thought when I saw Ninetales' new typing is "hi bullet punch, gg." Ironic given Ninetales' original resist to steel. Beautiful design though, even if silver fur and blue accents have already been done with shiny Ninetales.
I'm glad that GF went the Alolan form route to refresh older Pokemon, instead of giving everyone a Mega Evolution. (OTOH, did they really have to give all three lines we saw 4x weaknesses? Heh.)
Really excited for the game. B2W2 was the last game I was really impressed by in terms of storyline gameplay, and Sun & Moon may redefine expectations even more.
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It seems weird to me that these new formes are changing type completely. Take Sandslash-A, Ground/Ice would've made sense but its now Ice/Steel. I mean if it has a completely different type and look it may as well be a new species, not a variation of the old one.
My impression is, if this turns out to be true, is that the RBY mons retaining their original typing applies to the Alola-native forms (aka Exeggutor, Ninetails, Sandslash, and almost certainty more) and the "International" versions that we all know and love. Thus it would be easy to identify the difference in types.
I imagine Pokemon like Clefable, who had their types modified as new types were introduced, will still adopt those changes upon transfer. I cannot see Game Freak throwing away Magneton's Steel typing away, for example.
Anyway, on a different subject, I'm not sure how I feel about the island challenges replacing the gyms/league yet. I know change is good for the series and all, but this feels quite sudden, and striving to conquer the league and become champion has always been one of the key objectives of the franchise (arguably more important than "catching them all"). I'm still a bit confused about how many challenges there are, and how many of the captains you'll battle, but from what I understand, it's one captain per island (making it 4). If that's correct, that concerns me quite a bit on the length of the game. A short story mode would sting even worse if the post-game ends up being barebones to non-existent, and we all know the post-game is very hit or miss when it comes to Pokemon.
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