Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKIII *Official Media Only*

[Norne]

You're only stating things that suit your playstyle, who cares about "level curve" or "trade evolution". Why is it so important to have your 6 pokemon early ? Nothing. I could stay with my starter until badge 6 and pick 5 other 'mons after that point and have no problem with the game, where is the problem in that ?
And maybe trade evolutions don't work for you. Never had a problem using trade evolution.

Who cares about level curve?

Players and game designers . Even the letal joke characters deserve a breathing point, look at the FE franchise for examples, johto doesn't give you that.

Trade evolution.

It matter to people that replay with only one console after GTS services die for that generation and for emulator , it's content locked out of the cartridge experience.

6 Pokémon early.

6 Pokémon early isn't important in most games , OUTSIDE of HGSS and GSC where the exp curve goes to shit!

Closure on your post.

You ran out of arguments to defend the Johto games and you start to use anecdotal experience that doesn't involve gameplay , face it. Johto is a structural mess from a design perspective and it actually affects core elements of the gameplay.

Why is this relevant to SM?

Because SM is confirmed for a mix dex generation and we are worried about this small stuff , BW exp curve is a blessing for experimentation and party rotation and I'm grateful that the new mons and A forms seem to be decent enough.

 

[MrTharne]

Who cares about level curve?

Players and game designers . Even the letal joke characters deserve a breathing point, look at the FE franchise for examples, johto doesn't give you that.

Trade evolution.

It matter to people that replay with only one console after GTS services die for that generation and for emulator , it's content locked out of the cartridge experience.

6 Pokémon early.

6 Pokémon early isn't important in most games , OUTSIDE of HGSS and GSC where the exp curve goes to shit!

Closure on your post.

You ran out of arguments to defend the Johto games and you start to use anecdotal experience that doesn't involve gameplay , face it. Johto is a structural mess from a design perspective and it actually affects core elements of the gameplay.

Why is this relevant to SM?

Because SM is confirmed for a mix dex generation and we are worried about this small stuff , BW exp curve is a blessing for experimentation and party rotation and I'm grateful that the new mons and A forms seem to be decent enough.

Never saw any difference when playing any of the Pokemon games in term of level curve, maybe you do but I don't.

Edit : And all you do is also talking about your personnal experience, so idk.

 

[Norne]

Never saw any difference when playing any of the Pokemon games in term of level curve, maybe you do but I don't.

Edit : And all you do is also talking about your personnal experience, so idk.

It's not personal experience , I'm giving facts, level up movepool constraints, exp choke points, availability and game pacing see the elements I'm judging.

Trade evolutions are exterior service to the cartridge and can't be used at all in emulators, seriously check GSC movepools of Yanma and Heracross , then HGSS ones.

Do you doubt they affect the player experience?

Look at the psychic type, we have slowpoke, kadabra, drowzee, espeon, natu and unown as the main targets. Slowbro is godlike in this game, Hypno is consistent and was a beast in GSC thanks to the elemental punches, Kadabra is similar but more offensive and faster, Xatu suffers from the yanma syndrome, it only learns offensive moves past lv 40 and relies on game corner or goldenrod prices to be useful. Espeon is a mid point for kadabra and a better choice if you don't go umbreon , THE ONLY DARK TYPE IN GSC , and peripheral choice in HGSS, unown doesn't even deserve an explanation.

This is what you get when you sit and analyze the games.

If anyone is offering an empirical point of view that is you, you talk about trade evolutions wich are locked out in solo play , you talk of Pokémon that need baby sitting past lv 30 in a game that struggles with it experience curve... If anything it is your case the one that doesn't hold up.

Face it , the johto games are a mess design wise and HGSS is only fluff without substance as basically only 5 lines got the better end of the line on the move to 4th gen mechanics and movepool expansions. The games doesn't even try to expose you to its new species, nor rewards you for raising them.

I beg to God that stuff like Tsareena don't suffer from a grass type movepool issues and that Vikavolt has the bst to justify its lv up requirements in SM, also please God , let Wimpod evolution be worth us power limiter Abra/gyarados style.

 

[Johta]

Why are you guys even going on about the learning curve and/or viability of pokemon from previous iterations? I might be missing some context, but be it for better or worse; I don't see the relevance of it...

Anyhow, does anyone else also think that Alolan-Persian looks a LOT better in its 3d model?

In these shoots its head doesn't literally look like a basktball that was attached to a cat's body; in fact, it actually looks kinda good imo. Unfortunately, I think It did the opposite for Robingroot ( I cannot for the life of me properly spell its actual name), though. The concept art was gorgeous, but the 3d model feels kinda weird ( still cool, just not as good ), like when it tucks its hands, or claws, or whatever those things are, in to form its 'hood' and 'cape'; they literally bend 180 degrees, which seems kinda unconfortable to me.

 

[Siggu]

Unfortunately, I think It did the opposite for Robingroot ( I cannot for the life of me properly spell its actual name), though. The concept art was gorgeous, but the 3d model feels kinda weird ( still cool, just not as good ), like when it tucks its hands, or claws, or whatever those things are, in to form its 'hood' and 'cape'; they literally bend 180 degrees, which seems kinda unconfortable to me.

I kind of agree with Decidueye (I agree it's hard as hell to remember the spelling so far. Can't imagine how it would be for kids). The 3D angles don't seem to do many favors on it. Hopefully it's just a bad camera pick for the trailer, and it does look as good as in the artwork in other angles.

(Also expecting it to be kinda unfriendly in Refresh given the website says it gets really nervous when disrupting its concentration)

 

[Norne]

Why are you guys even going on about the learning curve and/or viability of pokemon from previous iterations? I might be missing some context, but be it for better or worse; I don't see the relevance of it...

Anyhow, does anyone else also think that Alolan-Persian looks a LOT better in its 3d model?

In these shoots its head doesn't literally look like a basktball that was attached to a cat's body; in fact, it actually looks kinda good imo. Unfortunately, I think It did the opposite for Robingroot ( I cannot for the life of me properly spell its actual name), though. The concept art was gorgeous, but the 3d model feels kinda weird ( still cool, just not as good ), like when it tucks its hands, or claws, or whatever those things are, in to form its 'hood' and 'cape'; they literally bend 180 degrees, which seems kinda unconfortable to me.

Basically I started talking about how the Tree is a less limited Mt battle in concept.

Someone did a nostalgia trip with HGSS and got told, people tried to defend HGSS and got told even harder, this is pertinent because we now know this is a mix dex , discussing previous examples of mix dex is helpful for SM as it showcases how this mentality works , we have had good mix dex in RS, Pt and B2W2. So analyzing non connectivity gameplay is a good tool to discuss the recent findings for SM.

I actually like Alolan Persian model , Decidueye just got hit with an awkward pose, he reminds me of Delphox in this business, as idle Delphox looks weird.

 

[Ungoliath]

You know, I just realized how much of a boon Tapu Bulu is for Sun teams. Grassy Terrain not only boost the attacks of grass moves, but it also Halves the power of the dreaded Earthquake. Give me a decent spinner and I'd say things are looking much brighter for the little under-weather.

And there is Grass Pelt which could have a wider distribution this generation.

Besides Electric Surge I wonder if there will be abilities that activates with Misty and Psychic terrains.

 

[MrTharne]

You talk about "BW exp curve is a blessing for experimentation and party rotation" and then say "you talk of Pokémon that need baby sitting past lv 30 in a game that struggles with it experience curve", when most of BW 'mon evolve so late that most of them will still be in their base form when going into Elite 4. How is it good for party rotation ?

But with your comment about FE and the other post , I know understand what kind of player you are...you never go for your favorite pokemons, you're the kind of player that only go for efficiency and speed runs over *gasp* fun (or don't understand that some people don't think that efficiency = fun).

We will never agree.

 

[Kilgrave]

Train On 3 information extracting part 2:

Looks like a large chunk of the Pokedex was revealed :P

The Pokedex (Pokemon confirmed to be in-game):

Pokedex (Spoilers)

017 - Caterpie
018 - Metapod
019 - Butterfree
020 - Ledyba
021 - Ledian
027 - Grubbin
028 - Charjabug
029 - Vikavolt
030 - Bonsly
031 - Sudowoodo
032 - Happiny
033 - Chansey (God help us)
034 - Blissey
035 - Munchlax
036 - Snorlax
037 - Slowpoke
038 - Slowbro
039 - Slowking
040 - Wingull
041 - Pelipper
042 - Abra
043 - Kadabra
044 - Alakazam
045 - Alolan Meowth
046 - Alolan Persian
047 - Magnemite
048 - Magneton
049 - Magnezone
...
253 - Alolan Vulpix
254 - Alolan Ninetales
269 - Exeggcute
270 - Alolan Exeggutor

That confirms that there is at least 270 Pokemon in the game. I'm going to have fun completing my Pokedex XD.

 

[Project_Mars]

I just did some base HP calcs from the Train On 3 video. Here's what I got:

Minior: 67-82
Alolan Raichu: 45-60
Oricorio (pink): 60-75
Bruxish: 68-83
Alolan Ninetales: 73-88

None of their HP stats seem very high XD

Regular Raichu has a Base HP of 60 and Regular Ninetales has a base HP of 73. I would say this is an indication that the base HP is unchanged for these two particular Alola Forms.

 

[Norne]

You talk about "BW exp curve is a blessing for experimentation and party rotation" and then say "you talk of Pokémon that need baby sitting past lv 30 in a game that struggles with it experience curve", when most of BW 'mon evolve so late that most of them will still be in their base form when going into Elite 4. How is it good for party rotation ?

But with your comment about FE and the other post , I know understand what kind of player you are...you never go for your favorite pokemons, you're the kind of player that only go for efficiency and speed runs over *gasp* fun (or don't understand that some people don't think that efficiency = fun).

We will never agree.

Johto with BW exp curve would be terrible , lower level mons giving less exp to Pokémon 10 levels above them before the 8th gym...

And now you shift to personal attacks instead of trying to defend the game design, congratulations, you went full circle.

My favorite Pokémon is Slowbro, that's a fact anyone that knows me is aware off. The Johto games do him justice.

Sadly the johto games are garbage from a design standpoint, they don't even try to sell you the new species and focus only on the personality of the map, they didn't even try to make the Johto Pokémon accessible nor reward you as a player for going out of the way in getting them over the most of the time superior Kanto options.

That is the issue at hand, you talking about favorites or how people play their games doesn't change the fact that the Johto games fail hard at conveying the importance of their new gameplay tools.

Currently doing a only johto Run on my 3ds, and I went out of my way to use Meganium, Noctowl, Crobat, Quagsire, Umbreon and Furret instead of using Kanto mons starters and Mareep like it is often suggested , or ends up being the way the johto games she played. Before this I used Piloswine, Foretress and Xatu along Feraligator, Feraligator did everything and mamoswine took 4 hours to actually catch up in normal gameplay. This is empirical experience on my side saying that Feraligator carried everything on a mostly support movepool team, but the johto games actually punishes you for the rotation of late game mons harder than any other game in the franchise and that is factual for many players that see outside of the fluff.

I replay my games in different permutations so I can be objective, and the johto games are consistently terrible.

I hope no connectivity gen 7 is better than that mess and isn't affected much by gen1 pandering, the BW level curve is a good hint of rewarding rotation after seeing Ariados at lv 30.

 

[zferolie]

can we really guess their base HP by these trailers? I mean, we don't even know what IV's or EVS they have...

 

[Kilgrave]

can we really guess their base HP by these trailers? I mean, we don't even know what IV's or EVS they have...

You can't guess the exact base HP, but you can run calcs with that amount of HP with 0 IVs and 31 IVs to get an amount in between, if you know what I mean.

 

[Heracr055]

Can we please move the discussion about GSC/HGSS elsewhere? I don't think this is the proper place for arguing the games' merits (or lack thereof).
Anyways, I am glad that the final starter evos' typings are different than what was anticipated. I didn't have a problem with Rowlet remaining Flying/Grass, but it gained a Ghost type instead, which is nice. And I'm really happy Litten became Fire/Dark; Dire/Fighting would have been disappointing.

 

[MrTharne]

Johto with BW exp curve would be terrible , lower level mons giving less exp to Pokémon 10 levels above them before the 8th gym...

And now you shift to personal attacks instead of trying to defend the game design, congratulations, you went full circle.

First line : And why would that be a problem ?

Second line : That's not an attack, merely a guess at the type of player you are. I'm not insulting you.

 

[zferolie]

Can we please move the discussion about GSC/HGSS elsewhere? I don't think this is the proper place for arguing the games' merits (or lack thereof).
Anyways, I am glad that the final starter evos' typings are different than what was anticipated. I didn't have a problem with Rowlet remaining Flying/Grass, but it gained a Ghost type instead, which is nice. And I'm really happy Litten became Fire/Dark; Dire/Fighting would have been disappointing.

yeah we should focus on SM. I still don't have any answers about Fur coat vs Technician on Alolan Person

Rowlet is the only one I think most people were surprised abou. Littens was hinted at, and Pops seemed to be a given.

 

[Norne]

yeah we should focus on SM. I still don't have any answers about Fur coat vs Technician on Alolan Person

Rowlet is the only one I think most people were surprised abou. Littens was hinted at, and Pops seemed to be a given.

We don't have the BST to judge. All would be baseless assumptions, we do see nasty plot but we don't know the extent of its technician movepool.

 

[Prof. Almeida]

The first time I played Silver was in a badly translated Japanese version.

The team I finished the game with that first time, without guides, walkthroughs and the internet was Typhlosion, Ampharos, Quagsire, Noctowl, Lugia, Dunsparce. After getting access to the Mount Silver, I also got a Larvitar and leveled it all the way up to be able to take on Red with a team of Typhlosion, Ampharos, Quadsire, Lugia, Heracross and Tyranitar. 6 Johto Pokémon. In the playthrough, it was all new Pokémon as well.

I understand the point in criticizing the game layout, I also think some of the things in the game are badly done, but I disagree with the incentive thing. True, leveling up new Pokémon after Morty is a pain, but grinding is part of the game. I don't see this happening in SM because with the new Exp. Share, you don't need to babysit a Pokémon, you can just let it in your party until its level is high enough to be able to hold its own. And the way the islands are structured, I say we'll have plenty of opportunity to rotate party, if that's what you like. I don't like to play like that. I generally let catching Pokémon for the later part of the journey, after I beat the game, but it'll probably change this time around, since we have plenty of money available early on in the game (I generally avoid buying unnecessary PokéBalls to invest in Potions and healing items) and the trials must ask for different settings. Also, without needing an HM-Slave, things are way smoothier.

 

[zferolie]

We don't have the BST to judge. All would be baseless assumptions, we do see nasty plot but we don't know the extent of its technician movepool.

That is true. Did we see any other moves then Nasty plot and I think faint attack in that new story trailer?

 

[Norne]

The first time I played Silver was in a badly translated Japanese version.

The team I finished the game with that first time, without guides, walkthroughs and the internet was Typhlosion, Ampharos, Quagsire, Noctowl, Lugia, Dunsparce. After getting access to the Mount Silver, I also got a Larvitar and leveled it all the way up to be able to take on Red with a team of Typhlosion, Ampharos, Quadsire, Lugia, Heracross and Tyranitar. 6 Johto Pokémon. In the playthrough, it was all new Pokémon as well.

I understand the point in criticizing the game layout, I also think some of the things in the game are badly done, but I disagree with the incentive thing. True, leveling up new Pokémon after Morty is a pain, but grinding is part of the game. I don't see this happening in SM because with the new Exp. Share, you don't need to babysit a Pokémon, you can just let it in your party until its level is high enough to be able to hold its own. And the way the islands are structured, I say we'll have plenty of opportunity to rotate party, if that's what you like. I don't like to play like that. I generally let catching Pokémon for the later part of the journey, after I beat the game, but it'll probably change this time around, since we have plenty of money available early on in the game (I generally avoid buying unnecessary PokéBalls to invest in Potions and healing items) and the trials must ask for different settings. Also, without needing an HM-Slave, things are way smoothier.

Anecdotal experience.

I broke the game with Meganium and Donphan in Crystal , both at lv 60 with my third higher being a lv 40 pidgeot and de dewong followed by hm slave furret and gloom. Donphan soloed the game and destroyed Red at lv 60, basically a two man wonder run in less than 20 hours.

My cousin did an Ampharos and Thyplosion run with 4 hm slaves at lv 30.

Games aren't hard to beat , but the fact that most of the new Pokémon are hidden can affect the game experience. Let's hope that SM puts the new Pokémon on a better spot.

 

[MrTharne]

Also, without needing an HM-Slave, things are way smoothier.

The dream is reality, thanks Game Freak.

 

[Kilgrave]

I still don't have any answers about Fur coat vs Technician on Alolan Person

It's a shame such an ugly (and being a persian, it will probably not be the best stat-wise) Pokemon is given such an awesome ability in Fur Coat. I'm not expecting it to have high defense, but even then Fur Coat could be useful.

Irrelevant-ish Calcs

252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Persian: 102-121 (30.5 - 36.2%) -- 53.6% chance to 3HKO

Base 60 Defense

However, if it has the offensive presence and the right movepool, I think that Technician will be the better ability. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Norne]

The dream is reality, thanks Game Freak.

We had to give up the bike for it...Hatching eggs while pressing b on a Tauros...God dammit.

 

[Siggu]

We had to give up the bike for it...Hatching eggs while pressing b on a Tauros...God dammit.

Considering grid-based movement is no more, egg hatching may be significantly more different than before. Maybe based on actual time (naturally not counting spending time by talking, battling, having menus opened, etc.) rather than steps?

 

[zferolie]

It's a shame such an ugly (and being a persian, it will probably not be the best stat-wise) Pokemon is given such an awesome ability in Fur Coat. I'm not expecting it to have high defense, but even then Fur Coat could be useful.

Irrelevant-ish Calcs

252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Persian: 102-121 (30.5 - 36.2%) -- 53.6% chance to 3HKO

Base 60 Defense

However, if it has the offensive presence and the right movepool, I think that Technician will be the better ability. But that's just my opinion.

To be fair I am starting to kinda warm up to the look. its no beauty, but its kinda cute. in a grumpy cat kinda way

jesus christ thats some intense walling right there. But yeah I guess it depends on the move set. I know someone hacked all the TM's but I haven't looked yet. If it gets Shock wave and Icy wind plus Snarl with Nasty plot that could be some decent damage, and have pretty much perfect coverage, a move that never misses, and 2 moves that always lower stats.

Really wanted to do a technican Persian in 6th gen just never got around to it, and if it can still have the same moves as that planned one that would be great