Gengarite Tiering Discussion

[McMeghan]

As promised, the OU Council will now open a discussion thread before deciding weither or not we should quick-ban something.

As you guys can guess, this is where discussion on the tiering status of the Gengarite will take place. I implore each and every one of you to add to the discussion with well thought out reasoning describing why you feel that the Gengarite should be Uber or OU. This topic will be left open until whatever point we feel the discussion has reached its conclusion.

Yes, I totally ripped off Jabba's post.

 

[Zarel]

I was promised we'd be banning Pokemon rather than formes. :|

I literally said "Are you ABSOLUTELY COMPLETELY SURE?" and got like three yeses.

 

[Oglemi]

It would be an item ban, not a forme ban. In this case they're basically one in the same, but the technicality is it'd be a ban on the item, which we have precedent with BrightPowder and Soul Dew.

 

[Aldaron]

I have always said we would be banning the item, so I'm not sure who you asked Zarel >.>

The only people who could even answer that question are the council members so :X

 

[Style_Dota]

Just posting the best Pro/Con Ban arguments I found in the thread here for people to gander at:

Pro Ban:

Some finals thoughts on this before I post it to Twitter/Layell posts it to Facebook.

Many of you cite ways of beating Gengar: priority, multihit moves, etc. This is fine, but beating Mega Gengar isn't the issue. The issue is making sure Mega Gengar doesn't take out exactly what it needs to in order to open up a sweep for a teammate. The only way to do this is to make sure everything on your team has one of U-turn, Volt Switch, Baton Pass + a Ghost-type that can switch out of it as Baton Pass will pass Perish Song, a Shed Shell, Whirlwind or Roar, a (powerful) multi-hit move, or (powerful) priority. For Pokemon that have those, that's great! But that's not stopping Mega Gengar from trapping and taking out your Blissey, your Snorlax, your Ferrothorn, your spinner, and so on and so forth. If Mega Gengar didn't have Shadow Tag, and thus the choice of what it's taking out, sure, it wouldn't be too hard to counter, but it does. You can't consider Mega Gengar in a vacuum against any given Pokemon because it won't be fighting any given Pokemon; it will be selectively trapping and removing what it wants to.

The counters given in this thread are also generally poor ones. Of course Goodra walls Mega Gengar. Obviously Assault Vest Tyranitar walls Mega Gengar. That doesn't stop it from removing them with Perish Song. In the case of Tyranitar, it can even Disable Pursuit to escape its own Perish Song later, and even if it doesn't run Disable, you just lost your Talonflame check. Defensively walling Mega Gengar doesn't keep it from beating the Pokemon.

As Mike just posted, team support is huge with Mega Gengar. Slapping Mega Gengar onto a VoltTurn team is a pretty easy way to make sure that you can remove whatever you want to. Hell, Mega Gengar + Genesect is an easy way to open up a Genesect sweep later or at least open up massive holes in the opponent's team. If they're too afraid to switch in their Genesect check in fear of it being trapped, that means that other teammates are taking damage from U-turn every time Genesect gets in safely.

Ultimately, it's not about checking or countering Mega Gengar because you'll almost never get the upper hand against it. You can't just pick and choose what you're going to fight it with. This is what makes it uncompetitive. Pokemon is all about strategy, and a huge part of strategy is knowing that you're going to need your Heatran or your Blissey or your spinner later in the match to counter something on the opponent's team or to spin away hazards or to do any number of things, and Mega Gengar takes away this huge factor of the game and gives its user the upper hand.

I'm not sure why people think that Mega Gengar is hindered by the fact that it has to Mega evolve to be the threat that it currently is. This is not difficult to pull off whatsoever. Regular Gengar packs base 130 Special Attack and 110 Speed. These are high enough offensive stats to allow it to 1) Mega Evolve + outspeed the majority of threats in one turn, 2) destroy them with attacks coming off of base 170 Special Attack, or 3) force a switch and pound the switch-in, meaning you are often Mega evolving without taking a hit. Another point here to make is that Gengar itself is a potent threat without the Mega evolution. This means that you can pair it with Pokemon such as Garchomp, Tyranitar, Alakazam, or Lucario and bluff Choice Scarf (a common Gengar set), and then Mega evolve when your opponent doesn't expect it. This is just another strategy that makes Gengar even scarier. You have to ask yourself "Is that going to Mega evolve? What precautions should I take to prevent it from dismantling me?" It's hard to say when you're faced with these questions.

Also, I just want to pull something out posted by Jumpman16 a few years ago that I think is still perfectly valid to reference despite it being catered to past generations:

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

I think we've established that Mega Gengar isn't necessarily a sweeper in the sense that it can just destroy relatively healthy teams pretty easily (Blaziken was banned because of this), because it can't. It doesn't have that kind of power. However, what it does do well is bring invaluable support to its teammates. Like it says in the characteristic, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes its teammates have a significantly easier time pulling off a sweep. Does it do this? Hell yes it does. Lucario lures in Pokemon such as Gliscor and Skarmory, but Gengar can simply capitalize on this and eliminate them from the match. This instantly opens up a Lucario sweep mid-to-late-game. Choice Band Talonflame is walled by Rotom-W and Tyranitar, but it can U-turn against these and have Gengar eliminate them from the match. Now it can spam Brave Birds or Flare Blitzes without much worry. You can basically pair Mega Gengar up with any sweeper and lure in those sweeper's check and counters, only to be taken out pretty easily and, thus, making your opponent susceptible to their sweeping ability. This doesn't even apply to just sweepers either. If you take out the opponent's check/counter to one of your walls, such as Togekiss's Tyranitar counter, Togekiss is that much harder to break down. Mega Gengar's team support is simply game-breaking and not even difficult to execute.

Against Ban:

I'm inclined to disagree. I know what you're getting at, but I don't think it's anywhere close to "one of the worst arguments ever." We have two tools with which to make this decision-- our theorymonned knowledge and our actual experiences, so let's not entirely undercut the value of the latter...

There are things that sound absolutely brilliant in theory, but aren't flawless in practice. Wobbuffet was theory-banned during the shoddy battle days even though it seemed like generation 4's offensive threats had caught up to it; there was no statistical data to back up the argument (it wasn't being heavily used) and it was because of a vocal minority that repeatedly painted scenarios of wobbuffet's "unbeatable nature" that it ended up getting the axe.

But really, you had to play optimally to get those kinds of results. You also had to correctly anticipate the moves of your opponent to achieve the best results. The nature of the tools you were using allowed forgiveness from play errors, but at the end of things, player skill was maximizing your results.

I feel like Mega Gengar falls into a similar --although obviously not the same-- kind of camp. Nobody is questioning that Mega Gengar is a very strong tool. But it's a tool that rewards good play on your part and punishes the mistakes your opponent makes-- Yes, you will get into situations when piloting it that you are guaranteed kills if your opponent plays into your hands-- but those guarantees are still play-skill dependent.

You need to account for Mega Gengar in teambuilding. I know others aren't into it, but I'm a huge fan of sticky web, which allows positive-natured, fully invested base 78s to outspeed and get the jump on Mega Gengar and smash its face in, should it switch in grounded. I'm also a huge fan of the mixed, pivot aegislash, who is capable of revenge killing with shadow sneak, but-- more likely-- will punish the opponent's "free" kill, and uses gengar's switch-outs to launch impressively-powered shadow balls and sacred swords at incoming switch ins.

Interplay between megas is something I feel shouldn't be discounted when deciding the fate of Gengarite. As others have mentioned, in choosing gengarite, your are passing up the opportunity to use mega kangaskhan, as well as any other megas which could become topically good. That's a very real cost-- I feel that when we start banning mega stones, we'll be running through quite a few of them because we'll be removing this cost (i.e. "now there's no reason not to use mega kangaskhan, so we have no choice but to ban that"). Since mega stones are a new mechanic, I feel they deserve a bit more time under the microscope, because I'm not convinced we have appropriate respect for some of the teambuilding decisions they require.

It feels true that Mega Gengar is best billed as a team player, who opens the doors for threats to take advantage of the holes it creates. But to do that, you do have to take some teambuilding into account, however minor... Mega Gengar best helps a number of key offensive mons. When you start seeing the same few together, it really drives home the impression that this is a team archetype we're talking about-- that traps and dismantles opponents-- rather than a Blakizen-esque mon that runs the show by itself. We made great strides in generation V to balance what we felt was a major characteristic of competitive play-- infinite weather-- so considering the threat this quickban would have towards other mega pokemon (and maybe you'll laugh, but also the removal of the offensive trap team archetype, if I'm not dumb and that's really a thing) makes me believe that a quickban would be a hasty decision here.

Getting your kill-value up-front is really strong, no question, but other Megas like Kanga deliver value that is greater and while it's not a sure thing, it'd argue it's all-but-guaranteed unless the opponent is packing specific answers.

I think Mega Gengar is insane, massively powerful, and extremely hard to deal with in the right hands. That said, I'm not sure it warrants a quickban.

Thank you for reading.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I am personally neutral right now, but from what I've observed, popular opinion is not decisive enough either way to justify a quickban, which should only be reserved for obviously broken things, like Blaziken and Deoxys-N. Thus, I feel the best course of action would just be to include this guy in the round 1 suspect pool, along with other probably-but-not-obviously broken Pokemon (Deoxys-S, etc.).

 

[TheFourthChaser]

Im on my phone atm so forgie me for typos and shorter exlplanations.

I am personally neutral right now, but from what I've observed, popular opinion is not decisive enough either way to justify a quickban, which should only be reserved for obviously broken things, like Blaziken and Deoxys-N. Thus, I feel the best course of action would just be to include this guy in the round 1 suspect pool, along with the probably-but-not-obviously broken Pokemon (Genesect, Deoxys-S, etc.).

I think Mega Gengar is more obviously broken than at least Blaziken. The anti-ban, or at least the Zracknel post, side mentions that you just have to prepare for it in the teambuilding process. How is that done when Gengar just comes in and traps a mon of the players choice? Mgar has two main trapping sets (offensive and perish song) and 140 base speed to abuse and very few, if anything at all, will beat both. Im not huge on the prediction argument since you have to take both players into consideration but with the overabundance of shit like Genesect and Rotom-W, it really isnt that hard to get any pokemon in while holding onto to momentum at all. The big difference here between any pokemon and mgar is that mgar has Shadow Tag, 140 speed, and 170 spa. Basically, Gengar is getting guaranteed kills of the players choice with multiple methods and the few things that would like to switch in and fight it cant, thus freeing up room for anything else on the users team to sweep. Tacitally and strayegically limiting to the point where it feels like a dosadvantage not running it. Also good idea bringong ip genesect and deoxys smb, fuck those guys.

 

[Fireburn]

I support quickbanning Gengarite.

Firstly, the argument that "you can prepare for Mega Gengar" is total bull. You can't prepare for something you can't switch out of; it's just not possible. The only way to "prepare" for Mega Gengar is to have 6 Pokemon that can either kill it before it can move or that it can't trap, which is totally nonrealistic and extremely centralizing to a degree not even Ubers has seen. The problem is not beating Mega Gengar, the problem is beating it before it can do its job, which, given its insane stats, insane movepool that includes totally unfair support moves when comboed with Shadow Tag like DBond and Perish Song that the other trappers could only dream of, and excellent typing (which only got better in Gen 6), is impossible.

Secondly, Mega Gengar isn't even that frail. Attacks that would kill regular Gengar easily fail to OHKO Mega Gengar. Factoring in SR (Mega Gengar spinblocks btw), CB Scizor fails to OHKO with Bullet Punch, Ferrothorn fails to OHKO with Gyro Ball, even 252+ Atk Aegislash fails to OHKO with Shadow Sneak - that is STAB SE priority, for the record. On the whole, it takes hits much better than normal Gengar. Often it doesn't need to take a hit at all with useful Normal/Fighting immunities and an abundance of U-turn/Volt Switch users to give it a free pass into battle.

I think the reason why a lot of people in the general discussion thread in UT think its underwhelming is because they send it out and expect it to 6-0 teams or do something inane like that by itself. That is not what you use Mega Gengar for. It is not a bulldozer; rather, it is a sniper, used to eliminate one or two or even three high value targets on the enemy team to make way for your teammates. Being able to eliminate basically any target you want on the enemy team without them being able to do anything about it is the ultimate support you can give any Pokemon. At worst, Mega Gengar is looking at a 1-to-1 trade, which is still in the user of Mega Gengar's advantage since the opponent only has ONE turn to react to Gengar before it can trap something - if it escapes your Ttar, which it can do easily with moves like Disable, Substitute, or even just Focus Blast (and if it has FBlast, Tyranitar is the one getting trapped, not Gengar), you are screwed. And to those people who say Mega Gengar is weak, this post presents pretty clearly the sheer amount of Pokemon Mega Gengar can trap or revenge with basically no effort. And that's not even factoring Destiny Bond at all or Perish Trap for anything but Blissey, which Gengar doesn't need to beat (Taunt), and Gastrodon. If you want to argue that we shouldn't quickban Mega Gengar because "Perish Trap doesn't exist!" in a metagame that will become obsolete in one month and for the temporary illegality of a move that is really only necessary to beat freaking Gastrodon of all things, I don't really know what to say to you.

tl;dr Mega Gengar is extraordinarily uncompetitive and should not be let anywhere near OU. It doesn't need a test - it needs the boot.

 

[Colonel M]

Oh great shitty users like TFC have access to this place?

J/k bro.

I posted a lot in the thread in Empty Cave- I mean Uncharted Territory. I have a lot of posts, but this was my main one in the thread that addressed to the fools that counters exist.

To clarify I know you guys aren't saying it. But there's more information than just that.

I seriously am laughing at the people that are saying "Mega Gengar has counters".

Man this is almost as bad as a certain other subject...

Nevermind.

Let's get down to the nitty gritty of business. You cannot counter Mega Gengar. Period. Don't even try to say "BUT" nor "WELL" nor even "UHHH". Countering Mega Gengar is like beating Superman 64 while being blindfolded. To even think about "countering" Mega Gengar:

- Almost everyone that can be trapped to it must carry Shed Shell
OR
- Anyone that thinks they can take Mega Gengar has to probably have Assault Vest and good Atk / SpA.

I don't know who has played against Shadow Tag Chandelure back in Dreamworld OU in Generation 5, but if anyone remembers how much of a potential threat it was overall, you will know that Mega Gengar is also no laughing matter. You were ballsy if you even tried to run any Choice attack with Fighting- and / or Normal-type attacks. The people that straw with "well Scizor OHKOes it with Bullet Punch." Horseshit. That's not countering it -- that's revenge killing it. And that's the only way to even think about beating Mega Gengar.

Let's think with our brains for a moment. When it comes to Mega Gengar, you have the ace of spades roughly 75% of the time. If you choose not to Mega Evolve you can potentially bait problematic Pokemon out and can trick people by staying as Regular Gengar as they foolishly Earthquake. Then as Mega Gengar you have the capability of trapping the majority of threats that can cause problems for Mega Gengar and its team.

I know someone brought up Talonflame, which is a decent example, but let's break it down to a Pokemon that everyone and their mother used in Generation 5 -- Salamence. Okay, let's think about potential Salamence counters...

...Well, locking into Outrage usually meant a Steel-type, and now Fairy-type, can potentially stomach the attack (or obviously can as Fairies) and threaten Salamence while it is locked on.

The solution, of course, is removing the threat. Trapping in general can accomplish this well. Scizor never likes Magnezone for example, and Skarmory without Shed Shell is a sitting duck to any trapper barring Arena Trap (I mean even Probopass is a threat to Skarmory just because of Magnet Pull). Then you have Heatran that really hates Dugtrio unless it also carries a Shed Shell, Shucca Berry, or Air Balloon, and many other things.

The point isn't about Mega Gengar sweeping. Sure, Mega Gengar is a fantastic attacking Pokemon, but the main threat is the utility it brings alone is threatening with the offensive prowess. The only con, per se, is that Mega Evolution requires a turn where you're slower and not guaranteed to trap an opponent. Even so, Gengar can still play this to its advantage.

I support a Quick-ban; however, I also do not mind a fair trial for it.