Gifts of the Gods

(scpinion, good Mega Diancie set and nice post. That's the stuff I like to see from people.)

OKAY, I need to bust down some major misconceptions surrounding this metagame. First, and most importantly, the Viability Rankings are no where even close to complete. You are all missing a ton of threats in there, some of which are even better than Mega-Sableye... but more on that later. It needs to be at last three times larger than it already is to serve an unbiased purpose. It's arguably even more than Mix and Mega needs. And that's saying something.

Right now, Smeargle and Pikachu are being talked about for S-Rank. That's kind of madness of something so frail. This is not a meta where the frail survive. This... is a meta of staying power. (Both of them are good, but they both die to a breeze, which even a fully defensive team can provide.) With that, let's dive straight into reqs.



I also must share the team I used. It might give some of you people an idea of what I'll be talking about.
Clammy (Cloyster) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 200 HP / 172 Atk / 80 Def / 56 SpD
Impish Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Razor Shell

Cold Embrace (Lugia) @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Aeroblast
- Roost
- Surf

Lunar Vision (Clefable) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 72 SpA / 184 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Defog
- Roost

GAIA'S THRONE (Zygarde) @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 184 HP / 152 Atk / 108 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail

Beetle King (Heracross) (M) @ Heracronite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pin Missile
- Close Combat
- Bullet Seed
- Substitute

I built this team after being very unsatisfied with my attempt with Hyper Offense, and I could not be happier with the results.
Cloyster is there to spread hazards and serve as a physical wall that can dish out some punishment, too. (I should have Ice Shard in there, in hindsight.)
Lugia is our god, giving some very nice defenses, and has a solid statline in general. The Lugia itself wins many games, as Calm Mind just allows it to become a weapon of mass destruction. Also, Aeroblast makes it a bit of a crit machine, which can scare a Clefable real good.
Clefable is there on a suggestion, and I'm glad I followed it. You know the drill with this one; Calm Mind up, and also become a force. Magic Guard allows for the use of Soft-Boiled. (I was thinking about Heal Bell for this, and perhaps it would still serve me well)
Scizor... is a Special Attacker. YOU READ THAT RIGHT. HP Fire gets a jump on so many folks, it's kind of dumb. I waffled between Flash Cannon and Silver Wind, but in the end, hitting Fairies is super important. Defog support is also pretty necessary for this team, as it keeps Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rocks out. This team doesn't want either on the field.
Zygarde.... is just amazing. That set speaks for itself, and it takes so many hits like a champ. That substitute will be surviving for a good while.
Mega-Heracross is there as some immediate offense, which this team appreciates. Sub will help you get a jump on some threats.
This team is overall very good, but struggles against Boomburst Swellow, and strong Fairy attackers.

Now, for my decisions.

Mega-Sableye: Unban
On the surface, this looks impenetrable. And to some forms of offense, it is. But well-constructed Stall and Balance have at least one answer to this. The team above, for example, has Clefable, and I'm sure Lugia and Zygarde can take it on, too. I talked about Suicune before, and how it stalls this thing out easily, but there's quite a list for things that beat this. Primal Groudon is a big one, being able to no sell Will-O Wisp, and setting up in Sableye's face without fear. Rest mons in general can make a mockery of Mega Sableye, especially Umbreon and Diancie. One more point I want to make before closing this one out. Just because I'm voting to unban this... doesn't mean I want you all to use this. There can be better options in the HP slot, and with over 300 potential choices, there might just be a better one.

Talonflame: Unban
This is done for a completely different reason than the Mega-Sableye unban. This one is simpler; Mega Heracross and Serperior would both be too powerful without it. Both of them sweep through weakened teams easily, and having a quick answer to them helps keep them in check. We also have a good number of checks to Talonflame, considering that it can't hit Rock types too hard. They can even be seen on opposing HO teams in that SpDEF slot. Also, it competes with Smeargle, Pikachu, Umbreon, and so many others for the Attack slot. (As a side note, I even saw two Fletchinders while laddering in the suspect. That's sad.)
 
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iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
OKAY, I need to bust down some major misconceptions surrounding this metagame. First, and most importantly, the Viability Rankings are no where even close to complete. You are all missing a ton of threats in there, some of which are even better than Mega-Sableye... but more on that later. It needs to be at last three times larger than it already is to serve an unbiased purpose. It's arguably even more than Mix and Mega needs. And that's saying something.

Right now, Smeargle and Pikachu are being talked about for S-Rank. That's kind of madness of something so frail. This is not a meta where the frail survive. This... is a meta of staying power. (Both of them are good, but they both die to a breeze, which even a fully defensive team can provide.
I should clarify a few things with this post. First, the Viability Rankings are extremely flexible to change right now as new Pokemon are used and new concepts are tossed into the meta. The "trial" run of the VR was to simply set-up a good base of Pokemon that worked in this tier from usage by the Council and from what we have seen used. Obviously the VR would not be completely finished within the first two weeks of a metagame existing, that would simply be absurd. You also have to take in mind that Viability Rankings are mostly based off of actually in game performance with a good chunk of bias. That is the basic concept behind running a VR. I would also like to disagree on your notions with Smeargle and Pikachu. Smeargle is most certainly an A+/S ranked threat in this metagame, with A+ being the lowest realistic place to put it, especially in a meta without access to Mega Sableye. Pikachu is definitely at minimum an A- threat with access to Light Ball, Fake Out, ESpeed, and decent coverage options. Also, with regards to the VR, it can change a lot during and after suspect tests, which is understandable. The metagame is changing and adapting so viability does as well. I will say that once this suspect is over, there will be a massive revamp to the VR, depending on what is and isn't banned.

"This is not a meta where the frail survive."

Sorry if I come off as rude, but I laughed when I read this. One of the best uber options is Deoxys-Attack, which is the epitome of a glass cannon, and priority + multi-priority Pokemon are extremely proficient in this metagame especially when paired with an Uber like Deoxys-Attack, i.e. Smeargle, Pikachu, Linoone, Kecleon, etc. The point of running these types of Pokemon is to dismantle fully defensive teams, so saying they are weak and can die to a lot of things makes them not very good is a little ridiculous.
Mega-Sableye: Unban
On the surface, this looks impenetrable. And to some forms of offense, it is. But well-constructed Stall and Balance have at least one answer to this. The team above, for example, has Clefable, and I'm sure Lugia and Zygarde can take it on, too. I talked about Suicune before, and how it stalls this thing out easily, but there's quite a list for things that beat this. Primal Groudon is a big one, being able to no sell Will-O Wisp, and setting up in Sableye's face without fear. Rest mons in general can make a mockery of Mega Sableye, especially Umbreon and Diancie. One more point I want to make before closing this one out. Just because I'm voting to unban this... doesn't mean I want you all to use this. There can be better options in the HP slot, and with over 300 potential choices, there might just be a better one.
Now, since I'm Pro-Mega Sableye Ban, I feel I need to refute this little bit. Saying that there is at least one answer on different teams for a Pokemon really doesn't help your argument. If anything you're basically stating why Mega Sableye is so dangerous and is inherently ban-worthy. Also, hypothesizing that two random Pokemon, including an Uber, could potentially beat said "dangerous" Pokemon is really just an assumption, at best. In reality, Lugia loses to Mega Sableye mainly because it can't really do anything to it while most any Mega Sableye set can have its way with Lugia and stall it. Zygarde is a tad random, but most likely loses to Mega Sableye nonetheless as Will-O-Wisp + Foul Play straight-up beats it. Crocune is a given, but so is switching out with Mega Sableye. PDon actually loses to Mega Sableye, unless it's the defensive Rest set. In fact SD PDon pretty much gets bodied by Mega Sableye if it tries to set-up on it. Foul Play covers SD and general damage while the Toxic set outright beats it and even if PDon lives and SDs, the opponent can just switch into their Unaware mon or Set-Up mon check/counter. Umbreon is a tad random. It beats Mega Sableye if and only if the Mega Sableye tries to status the Umbreon or gets baited. Umbreon can't do anything on its own. Diancie as a Pokemon beats Mega Sableye if it doesn't run Metal Burst, but then again, it's a Diancie, just don't stay in.

"Just because I'm voting to unban this...doesn't mean I want you all to use this."

This is an issue that has come up multiple times throughout any and every tier in Pokemon, including this thread, in Other Metas chat, and PMs. I just want to make this as perfectly clear as possible:

Broken Pokemon checking/countering/anything other Pokemon that could potentially become broken is not a reason for the original to not be banned.

I.e. "If Mega Sableye is banned then Deoxys-Attack will be broken, so we can't ban Mega Sableye." So that you are aware, just because something that is broken beats something else that is really good and potentially broken doesn't mean that the original Pokemon is not broken. If Deoxys-Attack and other Pokemon have the potential to be broken if Mega Sableye is banned, then they will be suspected accordingly. That is how metagames develop and change.
 
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Got reqs in exactly 20 games:


Mega Sableye: GET THIS THE FUCK OUT OF HERE (BAN)
On my laddering run, I saw a LOAD more diversity. Most notably, Tangrowth, who otherwise was completely walled by this. And holy fuck is it annoying to break. Stupid bulk, an ability that makes traditional stallbreaking methods fail completely bar Serp (WHO STILL LOSES TO METAL BURST), and, well, Chopin Alkaninoff said it all, so I won't say much more. Basically, it can beat pretty much all of it's checks with some set or move and is EXTREMELY annoying. It also gives Stall itself a ridiculously hard time ironically, leaving it down to mirror Mega Sab CM Wars, and makes hazards VERY difficult for a lot of teams. You can see this on teams like sin(pi) 's Normal spam HO, in which Deo-A has Skill Swap more or less just for Sab, when it could run Taunt, which is far more useful on it. And yes, while Deo-A might otherwise run rampant, that shouldn't be an argument against it's ban. On it's own, it's not completely unbreakable, but with a team behind it, it becomes VERY hard to break.

Talonflame: BAN
The fact this thing makes offensive teams without a dedicated Talon check far less viable than they really could be is utterly insane. Not only that, but it forces balanced playstyles to carry stuff like bulky rocks (Rhyperior etc) just to handle it. And even it's checks can be crippled by Wisp (Rhyperior, Lando-T, etc), or are easily worn down to the point that Talon can break through it anyways (Rhyperior, Lando-T, Rotom-W, Lanturn etc). This thing's presence also makes Pokemon like Tangrowth far less viable, as it can be an utter pain in the ass to handle otherwise. I was a bit dubious at first, but after seeing the resultant ladder's diversity and offense being actually troubling to deal with again, not to mention I swear I saw some Pokemon listed on the VR for the only purpose (that I can see) of checking Talonflame (like Lanturn, who for whatever reason is ranked above Rotom-W), I'm voting ban.

tbh though TFlame and MSab's impacts kind of overlap so eh :P

And I'll say this for people to read for future suspects.

BROKEN DOES NOT (AND SHOULD NOT BE KEPT TO) FIX BROKEN

If something broken prevents something else from being broken (e.g Mega Sableye counters Deo-A or Talonflame counters Serp), that should not matter. In fact, that should be a testament as to why it SHOULD be banned! If it's so strong it keeps a Pokemon that is broken in balance, then it's definitely broken. Every time someone uses the argument that it keeps something from being broken and should be kept as a result, I die a little inside.

EDIT: Fixed MSab argument being in TFlame section
 
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Registering to vote with a terrible run

BAN Mega Sableye.
This thing is absolutely disgusting. It's overcentralizing, extremely difficult to break, and worst of all its not passive. You also can't wear it down with status. This thing was already usable in ubers, and now its 2.5 times as bukly- when only 3 pokemon are hitting as hard as the entire opposing team was. While it does have answers, all of it's switchins are easy to switch into in turn, and it all but invalidates entire archetypes.

ABSTAIN Talonflame.
I didn't use it enough preban to know, and I can't use it now, so I'll leave the decision in the hands of those who do.
 
While there are quite a few good points here, I need to address some of these points, and clarify my own...
I should clarify a few things with this post. First, the Viability Rankings are extremely flexible to change right now as new Pokemon are used and new concepts are tossed into the meta. The "trial" run of the VR was to simply set-up a good base of Pokemon that worked in this tier from usage by the Council and from what we have seen used. Obviously the VR would not be completely finished within the first two weeks of a metagame existing, that would simply be absurd. You also have to take in mind that Viability Rankings are mostly based off of actually in game performance with a good chunk of bias. That is the basic concept behind running a VR. I would also like to disagree on your notions with Smeargle and Pikachu. Smeargle is most certainly an A+/S ranked threat in this metagame, with A+ being the lowest realistic place to put it, especially in a meta without access to Mega Sableye. Pikachu is definitely at minimum an A- threat with access to Light Ball, Fake Out, ESpeed, and decent coverage options. Also, with regards to the VR, it can change a lot during and after suspect tests, which is understandable. The metagame is changing and adapting so viability does as well. I will say that once this suspect is over, there will be a massive revamp to the VR, depending on what is and isn't banned.

"This is not a meta where the frail survive."

Sorry if I come off as rude, but I laughed when I read this. One of the best uber options is Deoxys-Attack, which is the epitome of a glass cannon, and priority + multi-priority Pokemon are extremely proficient in this metagame especially when paired with an Uber like Deoxys-Attack, i.e. Smeargle, Pikachu, Linoone, Kecleon, etc. The point of running these types of Pokemon is to dismantle fully defensive teams, so saying they are weak and can die to a lot of things makes them not very good is a little ridiculous.
Of course assuming that the VR Rankings would be finished in two weeks is quite dumb, to say the least. What I'm saying is that they should be expanded regularly to account for the new threats that come up, which is a ton of mons. More than are up there currently. I even suggested two earlier... nothing. (That's part of being busy , so I don't blame them at all)

Pikachu and Smeargle are obviously not weak, but they are incredibly frail, which IS a severe downside. If you force one of them to switch out (which might be one of the main purposes of their counter), you're basically giving the opponent a free turn. And for Deoxys-A teams, that can quickly become a disaster. (This is ALSO yet another reason to keep Blissey and Chansey banned)
Deoxys-A teams are certainly good, but it's not due to their frail sweepers. It's due to the mons that are normally slow or weak, and just need one stat to truly dominate. Examples of these are Mega Heracross, Serperior, Tyranitar Landorus-T, Swellow ..Talonflame, and to a lesser extent, Bisharp, Breloom, Tornadus (both forms), Crawdunt, and Rampardos. And that's just the tip of it all. Some of these are more frail than others, but even the frailest of these can take at least one light priority attack. I'm not too sure about Pikachu and Smeargle.

Now, since I'm Pro-Mega Sableye Ban, I feel I need to refute this little bit. Saying that there is at least one answer on different teams for a Pokemon really doesn't help your argument. If anything you're basically stating why Mega Sableye is so dangerous and is inherently ban-worthy. Also, hypothesizing that two random Pokemon, including an Uber, could potentially beat said "dangerous" Pokemon is really just an assumption, at best. In reality, Lugia loses to Mega Sableye mainly because it can't really do anything to it while most any Mega Sableye set can have its way with Lugia and stall it. Zygarde is a tad random, but most likely loses to Mega Sableye nonetheless as Will-O-Wisp + Foul Play straight-up beats it. Crocune is a given, but so is switching out with Mega Sableye. PDon actually loses to Mega Sableye, unless it's the defensive Rest set. In fact SD PDon pretty much gets bodied by Mega Sableye if it tries to set-up on it. Foul Play covers SD and general damage while the Toxic set outright beats it and even if PDon lives and SDs, the opponent can just switch into their Unaware mon or Set-Up mon check/counter. Umbreon is a tad random. It beats Mega Sableye if and only if the Mega Sableye tries to status the Umbreon or gets baited. Umbreon can't do anything on its own. Diancie as a Pokemon beats Mega Sableye if it doesn't run Metal Burst, but then again, it's a Diancie, just don't stay in.

"Just because I'm voting to unban this...doesn't mean I want you all to use this."

This is an issue that has come up multiple times throughout any and every tier in Pokemon, including this thread, in Other Metas chat, and PMs. I just want to make this as perfectly clear as possible:

Broken Pokemon checking/countering/anything other Pokemon that could potentially become broken is not a reason for the original to not be banned.

I.e. "If Mega Sableye is banned then Deoxys-Attack will be broken, so we can't ban Mega Sableye." So that you are aware, just because something that is broken beats something else that is really good and potentially broken doesn't mean that the original Pokemon is not broken. If Deoxys-Attack and other Pokemon have the potential to be broken if Mega Sableye is banned, then they will be suspected accordingly. That is how metagames develop and change.
I'm not arguing Mega-Sableye to be unbanned because it will make handling Deoxys-A teams easier. (quite the contrary, actually... Many of my issues with offense can be traced back to Boomburst Swellow, which could be solved with a simple Ice Shard...) I'm arguing it because I feel that enough things can handle Mega Sableye so that it's not actually broken. Groudon-Primal can also Lava Plume it, and try to burn Sableye. (maybe setting up in its face is too much work for Groudon's move slots...)

And placing that argument for Talonflame was a mistake, but the post's up there. It still loses to rock types, and with that Wisp comment, you are assuming the team has no way to get rid of it. Either way, it's likely a worthy sacrifice to have something burned in exchange for a fainted Talonflame...

I still stand by my decisions, but this meta is quite young. I'm not completely sure that this is the right call. We still don't know what this meta favors. You might say Hyper Offense reigns supreme, but I feel Balance or Stall are the dominant playstyles. Or maybe there isn't one, and we might have come up to the ultimate balance of archetypes (which I doubt, but the chance is there...).
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Top Contributor
Nidoqueen should probably find a place on the viability ranks. It has the potential to fulfill the roles of a special wallbreaker and toxic spikes setter, all in one set. It may not be as powerful or fast as Nidoking due to having to invest a little in defensive stats, but it's still quite popular and get put in some serious work in the special attack slot.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
The VR hasn't been updated purely because we're in the middle of a suspect, and so things might change after the votes. I'll update it on Sunday. There is a lot of changes that will be made!
 
The VR hasn't been updated purely because we're in the middle of a suspect, and so things might change after the votes. I'll update it on Sunday. There is a lot of changes that will be made!
Thanks, that's what I like to hear. This suspect has really made it clear that building a team is harder than it formally was, which is why we're getting such a variety of mons now.

...There is something that hasn't been said about Shuckle yet. Something that might just boost it out of "set up fodder" territory.

Final Gambit.
I know what you're all thinking: "Why would I want to sacrifice a near-impenetrable wall for mere damage?" It's because Shuckle ends up being a liability against a team prepared for it. Of course, foes that had Substitute will still laugh at the attempt, but a fully invested 100-150 HP is going to hurt the attacker badly, if not KO it. ...After you finish stacking any hazards you would like, of course. (With all this, you still need to put like 5 asterisks in front of Shuckle telling people that it can easily become set-up fodder)
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
Registering as MST In 20 <- Kappa
zzz mst 20-0 lol.png
zzz MST Reqs.png

Mega Sableye: BAN - I've already made my points on this, but I'll link my RMT of ABR Stall with Mega Sableye that peaked undefeated just to reinforce my points, once I finish it.

Talonflame: NO BAN - I never really thought Talonflame was broken in this meta. I thought it was suspect worthy just to see how the meta would change, and although I like the diversity and how many different builds and teams I'm seeing used, I think we need Talon back not only as an Offensive threat, but as a Defensive threat as well. Talon was by far my favorite Serperior switch-in, even though Crobat is technically better it just isn't as useful overall. It also is an incredibly manageable Pokemon with options that not only beat it, but are great overall assets to teams in general, i.e. Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Mega Diancie, Slowbro, Unaware Pokemon, etc.
 
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sin(pi)

lucky n bad
nice timing iLlama lmao

The suspect is now over.
Ban: 8
Do not ban: 2
Abstain: 0

Ban: 2
Do not ban: 6
Abstain: 2

Sablenite is banned, Talonflame remains unbanned.

edit: tfw you forget to tag TI, can the next post please tag him ty
 
And I just got reqs
Screen Shot 2016-10-15 at 5.42.27 PM.png
I'm happy on how it turned out, as that's exactly what I would have voted for. I've never had a problem with Talonflame and it would've been replaced by Fletchinder or someone else. Mega Sableye was infuriating, as it didn't need to worry about hazards, destroys the chance of offense being even remotely common, and all I saw was Arceus+Sableye. Thankfully that hell is over.

Edit: Removing useless attached files
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
I guess I'll start off the post-suspect discussion. But thank god Mega Sableye is gone. Getting to see all the insanely different builds, Megas, and basic Pokemon come out was crazy. This tier is already vastly more diverse than it was just a weak ago. Plus, each of the play-styles seem to be on a relatively even playing field now which is pretty nice for team-builders. I wonder how Talonflame will influence the meta as it comes back in and if people will lean towards a SpD variant more than before with Serperior taking the tier by storm.
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
Let's go ahead and get Nidoqueen on the vr now :3`
I will say that once this suspect is over, there will be a massive revamp to the VR, depending on what is and isn't banned.
We're currently working on the Revamp and hopefully it won't take too long to come out. In the mean time, feel free to post VR suggestions, things you've seen on ladder, anything you've been trying out, etc.
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
While we're working on the VR Revamp, why not discuss possible changes and such. Here are some suggestions that I have for both Gods and Receivers:

Gods Tiering Suggestions:

Rayquaza - A -> B
Giratina-Origin - B -> A
Ho-oh - B -> A (Maybe, need to see more teams use it but worth noting)
Mewtwo - B -> A (Same as Ho-oh)
Reshiram - B -> C
Zekrom - B -> C
Aegislash - Unranked -> C

Receivers Tiering Suggestions:
  • Cobalion (Attack, Special Attack) - Paired with its nice Defense stat + a pretty nice movepool, Attack boosted Cobalion can rip apart opposing teams. The Special Variant that I have seen can be equally as deadly. Fairies Beware. B-/B
  • Crobat (Special Defense) - Is actually a really good switch-in to Serperior, even if its Special Defense isn't boosted. Pretty much forces a switch automatically and with access to Utility, BB, U-Turn, and Roost it can fill a nice niche with Talonflame currently banned. A-
  • Ditto (Defense, Special Defense) - Just add these on as it can work to fill in the weak portions of Deo-A teams. Remains A
  • Garchomp (Special Attack, Speed) - C+
  • Keldeo (Attack, Special Attack) - This little guy can hit very hard thanks to having access to a similar Phsyical moveset as Terrakion, barring Iron Head and EQ, and has access to AJ + SD. Calm Mind + Taunt/Sub can also be a fairly deadly duo with boosted SpA. C+/B-
  • Mega Aggron (Special Defense) - Can work as an ok switch-in option. Excels most at Curse + RestTalk. C
  • Mega Ampharos (Speed) - Giving a beast with 165 SpA a good Speed stat can be absurdly strong. C+
  • Mega Garchomp (Special Attack, Speed) - I've seen and tried out this set and it can work decently well and serve as a nice pressure option to opposing teams with Draco/DPulse, FB, and EP. Also works for Physical wall bait. C/C+
  • Mega Metagross (Attack, Special Attack) - Giving this thing an even greater attack stat with its already insane bulk is pretty ridiculous. I also tried out Special Attacking as well because it has a pretty nice set of options and it could work out as Primal Bait: Psychic, Flash Cannon, Grass Knot, HP Fire, Icy Wind. C+/B-
  • Mega Pinsir (Attack, Speed) - Access to +2/+1 Priority, SD, and beats Serperior, Mega Venu, Tangrowth, etc. B-
  • Mega Scizor (HP, Speed) - Is a really great bulky Set-Up option and can actually work pretty well with Stall as a Utility/Defogger. It can also act as a fast Set-Up/U-Turn Pokemon which can come in handy for builds that sturggle with speed control. B
  • Mega Slowbro (Special Defense, Speed, Special Attack) - This can be a pretty annoying Pokemon to face, especially if it gets free Set-Up or you lack reliable kill options. This thing Deo-A's Speed stat is actually ridiculous in game. B+/A-
  • Mega Venusaur (HP) - Another great switch-in to Serperior, Fairies, Rain, and the Nidos (which are extremely dangerous if Deo-A SpA boosted). Did I mention it can go hand and hand with the Primals as well? B
  • Tornadus-T (Special Defense, Special Attack, Attack) - Can act as a switch-in to Serperior, especially if its AV. Can also be a decent Offensive threat with some nice mixed-coverage options. B-/B
General VR Suggestions (Unranked -> Ranked) in Alphabetical Order:
  • Amoonguss (HP, Defense, Special Defense) - B
  • Azumarill (Attack) - C/C+
  • Bisharp (Attack, Speed) - C/C+
  • Chesnaught (Speed) - C-
  • Diggersby (Attack) - C
  • Hippowdon (Special Defense) - C/C+
  • Jirachi (HP, Attack, Defense, Special Defense) - B-/B
  • Magneton (Special Attack, Speed) - C+/B-
  • Mamoswine (Attack, Speed) - C-
  • Manaphy (HP, Speed) - A-
  • Mega Manectric (Special Attack) - B-/B
  • Politoed (HP) - C-/C
  • Raikou (Special Attack) - C+/B-
  • Starmie (HP, Special Attack) - B-
  • Suicune (HP, Defense, Special Attack, Speed) - B
  • Terrakion (Attack) - C+/B-
  • Thundurus (Special Attack) - B-
  • Volcarona (HP, Defense, Speed) - B-/B
  • Weavile (Attack) - B-
 
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does crobat really deserve A rank for checking a single pokemon? i dont know what else that crobat does in this meta, its not a particularly great defogger, it isnt an amazing wall, offensively it is bad and its speed far less valuable than it looks- for instance better outsped by a very common 150 speed mega heracross (which is the main thing i would want it to check) and common espeed users. its two strengths are as a stallbreaker and serperior check, but i havent really seen it excel at being a stallbreaker (altho feel free to prove me wrong anyone) because poison is not a good typing when it comes to being specially defensive, and it doesnt make up for it with base stats or anything. if it wants to run black sludge then it cant run acrobatics and has to start using brave bird, which makes it much harder to stay healthy to check the only pokemon it deserves to be on a team to cover. there are serperior counters and hard checks in the game that can be chosen over crobat that are more effective, for instance azumarill. crobat will not ohko serperior with unboosted attacks on a defensive set, and is crippled by glare and leech seed. tflame should be unbanned now also, so this should definitely be dropped down to C maximum imo.

politoed is something which imo is deadly. rain teams are super strong and have a bunch of different options. ludicolo and other common rain sweepers are more than capable of shitting over the tier and rain teams pose an enormous problem to regular defensive pokemon such as clefable, quagsire, skarmory, shuckle, mega diancie, and all of the rock types that the overall very physically defensive meta has ushered in thanks to their normal and bird resists. the benefit of politoed though is that it fits onto things like deoxys teams (can run a 150 speed specs set) and doesnt take up your god slot unlike kyogre. while it obviously hates primal groudon, it is the matriarch of rain teams and i think it deserves to be higher
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
does crobat really deserve A rank for checking a single pokemon? i dont know what else that crobat does in this meta, its not a particularly great defogger, it isnt an amazing wall, offensively it is bad and its speed far less valuable than it looks- for instance better outsped by a very common 150 speed mega heracross (which is the main thing i would want it to check) and common espeed users. its two strengths are as a stallbreaker and serperior check, but i havent really seen it excel at being a stallbreaker (altho feel free to prove me wrong anyone) because poison is not a good typing when it comes to being specially defensive, and it doesnt make up for it with base stats or anything. if it wants to run black sludge then it cant run acrobatics and has to start using brave bird, which makes it much harder to stay healthy to check the only pokemon it deserves to be on a team to cover. there are serperior counters and hard checks in the game that can be chosen over crobat that are more effective, for instance azumarill. crobat will not ohko serperior with unboosted attacks on a defensive set, and is crippled by glare and leech seed. tflame should be unbanned now also, so this should definitely be dropped down to C maximum imo.

politoed is something which imo is deadly. rain teams are super strong and have a bunch of different options. ludicolo and other common rain sweepers are more than capable of shitting over the tier and rain teams pose an enormous problem to regular defensive pokemon such as clefable, quagsire, skarmory, shuckle, mega diancie, and all of the rock types that the overall very physically defensive meta has ushered in thanks to their normal and bird resists. the benefit of politoed though is that it fits onto things like deoxys teams (can run a 150 speed specs set) and doesnt take up your god slot unlike kyogre. while it obviously hates primal groudon, it is the matriarch of rain teams and i think it deserves to be higher
Chill oml. Right, so, I posted those as discussion topics, not for you to get pissed at me for even suggesting a possible rank for a Pokemon, after I said that this was simply for VR discussion purposes. Anyways, Crobat serves as a check/counter to Serperior, Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur, insert more grass types, Clefable, Stall Pokemon, etc. It's options are pretty decent, and following what my post was, it was regarding the meta while Talonflame was still banned and A- was a pretty reasonable rank for how the meta was during the suspect. Now I'd be fine with having at B, but definitely not lower. Ohh, and:

0 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 248-294 (85.2 - 101%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Sharp Beak Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 296-350 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And yes, Azuamrill + Sap Sipper is a good switchin to Serperior, except Azumarill has no Recovery options and overall really is not that good in this meta. It's options are horribly limited as it can really only be used as either Belly Drum or maybe AV and it doesn't provide anything better than other options that can fill its role.

Politoed can be deadly, yes, but it depends on the Rain and its team abusing the Rain to succeed. In a meta where this can be easily countered by one of the best and most used God Pokemon as well as the extremely common Tyranitar, which will go back up in usage now that Talonflame is back, C-/C is pretty fair.
 
Chill oml. Right, so, I posted those as discussion topics, not for you to get pissed at me for even suggesting a possible rank for a Pokemon, after I said that this was simply for VR discussion purposes.
I don't see anyone getting pissed off at anyone. Why are you getting so defensive? You obviously feel really strongly about Crobat as his critique of Crobat was well-mannered and reasonable. You can't make a post that big and not expect disagreement.

Anyways, I'm going to address some of the stuff in that big post. Mostly the ones I disagree with.
Aegislash: Still not seeing much reason to use this as a God, when you have the other Ubers at your disposal.

Crobat: I have to agree, it seems like an inferior Flying type, especially with Talonflame remaining unbanned. Although it does fare well against Serperior, it doesn't strike me as A- material. Offensively it's strictly inferior to the other Flying types, and defensively it faces competition from other defoggers like Zapdos.

Diggersby: I don't see much reason to use this. It has poor stats in general and has a lot of competition from other Ground and Normal types. It has good coverage, but not-great Speed or bulk, and a kinda useless ability in general. As a priority attacker it's got a lot of competition too (obviously). I get that Ground and Normal have good coverage together, but so does Ground and Ice, and Mamoswine has better stats too. Basically what I'm trying to say is that Diggersby just seems outclassed and gimmicky.

Magneton: For starters, if you want to boost your Speed with this thing, just use Magnezone. As a Scarf user that can revenge Talonflame, it's okay I guess. I don't think it deserves being in the same subrank as Magnezone, though. In a lot of situations it seems like kind of a downgrade.

Manaphy: I'm not sure why increased Special Attack is not being mentioned. It seems pretty intuitive to me. Besides that, no complaints really.

Politoed: Yeah C is solid IMO. Being shut down by opposing weather setters really sucks for it.

And here's some Pokemon that have not been mentioned yet, but might deserve a place on the viability rankings.

Klefki (HP): The metagame is really unkind to it, since there is a host of strong Ground types, priority which invalidates Thunder Wave, and hugely bulky or powerful mons. Much like in OU, Mega Diancie can also ruin Klefki's day with Magic Bounce. Although the list of things it can paralyze is small, it has a niche as something that can check some of the powerful Normal type attackers in the metagame, as well as paralyze things like Heracross and Serperior and make them easier to handle. And now that Mega Sableye's gone, it can actually do something to stall teams (usually just set up hazards). Seeing as Klefki is one of the best options for Spikes-stacking in general, it has that niche going for it too. These factors make it worthy of a lesser rank, maybe C- or C.

Heatran (HP, Special Attack, Speed): It's a similar story here: Heatran doesn't like the Primals or the Ground types, especially Dugtrio. It answers well to some common Pokemon like Talonflame and Serperior. If it boosts speed it can make a decent revenge killer too.

Entei (Attack): Good against stall and can play the priority game. Too lazy to write more right now.
 
readytolose said:
Manaphy: I'm not sure why increased Special Attack is not being mentioned. It seems pretty intuitive to me.
You don't need to boost Manaphy any higher, as that would be overkill. Speed helps it outspeed threats in a meta with huge speed tiers and hp helps the RD+Rest set survive longer

Also
Klefki - Unranked -> B/B+ (HP, Defense, Special Defense) - HP is by far the best option for Klefki, as on defensive teams it gives Klef a ton of bulk and it doesn't harm Klef on offense. Klef is best as a support roll, paralyzing pokemon to slow on offense and cripple on defense along with stacking spikes to help break sashes if Deo-A dies or give residual damage on defense. I use Klefki on my Deo-A team, and it glues my entire team together. Most of the time, I'll switch into Klef in order to take a hit from a Smeargle, Arceus, and set spikes on them. Thunder Wave helps deal with threats a lot easier than normal, especially if my normal plan for it is not possible. For example, I'll use Klef to cripple Arceus or Deo-A so my Pikachu can outspeed and kill it if my Serp or Ditto are dead. Spikes has saved me on many occasions, as its fairly rare and people often don't take consideration of it. After Klef has done its job, it's usually in range of a lot of attacks and can cripple numerous pokemon if not taken out. This allows for a free switch and potentially getting 2-3 kills after.
 
This is less useful without Mega Sableye around, but I still think it deserves a middling viability rank. Solid dedicated lead in the Speed slot for Deoxys-A HO.

Druddigon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Druddigon is the only Pokemon with access to Mold Breaker + Stealth Rock + Taunt, making it the perfect HO lead. You'll almost certainly outspeed or tie with the enemy lead, allowing you to go for the Taunt to prevent Rocks from going up or to prevent Shuckle from doing pretty much anything. You can also setup Rocks of your own and then try to take out the enemy with Outrage + EQ, utilizing your solid base 120 Attack. Sucker Punch and Fire Punch are also options, but I prefer EQ to handle Mega Diancie after you setup on its Magic Bounce with Mold Breaker (and Moldy EQ handles Levitators, as well). I recommend somewhere in the B ranks, because it almost does its job, and I prefer it over pretty much any other dedicated lead. I don't really care where it ranks, though.
 

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