Gifts of the Gods

Registering as EVE Tesseract
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Unban

I have yet to find a single mon that's broken with eviolite, or even one that's both good and not Rhydon/Tangela,with a maybe addition of dusclops. With nothing pushing it over the edge, I see no reason not to allow it. I'm not sure what it'll add to the metagame, but I don't think it'll take anything away.
 
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Eviolite: Unban

I've changed my mind. In practice, eviolite isn't that bad. Nothing is majorly broken with it and it helps pokemon gain usage. The only 2 pokemon that really get anything out of additional stats are Rhydon and Doublade. Doublade, although really bulky, can add an effective member of stall teams that hits hard. It doesn't have much of a place on HO teams. Eviolite can give Arceus some slightly bulky attackers like Rhydon over Rhyperior. Nothing is really given to Deo-A. This will help bring stall teams into gotg and make offense or bulky offense so common. Still up for change though.
 
EDIT: Here's the team. The bells and whistles, along with my detailed thought process making this thing will come later.
Blastoise @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic
- Roar

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Petal Blizzard
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis
- Earthquake

Mewtwo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Ice Beam
- Aura Sphere
- Trick

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 144 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Toxic Spikes
- Thunderbolt

Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 240 HP / 132 Atk / 136 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

Chandelure @ Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Taunt

I wanted to build an offensive team that wasn't based around Deoxys-A, which results in frail teams that can only really attack, so I decided to make one based around Mewtwo. Nidoqueen and Chandelure are both there as tsts to see how good they were. Both of them were pretty admirable, but are a bad idea to put on one team together.
This is why the Venasaur's there. Lack of physical Poison STAB is a bit regrettable, but I prefer EQ's coverage anyways.
Rhydon's just a standard bird check.
The Blastoise was originally a Hitmontop, but I needed a way to deal with boosters and spin hazards.



Well, we have Eviolite here. I'm going to also vote to unban it. The mons that we have here are all vulnerable to Trick, and many can be taken down a peg with Toxic Spikes. They do start becoming an issue for hyper offense, which is nice. Dusclops in particular is a good candidate to fill a void left by Mega Sableye. Bulky offense is already there from mons like Suicune, Alololamola, and Zygarde; this will help it become more central to the growth of this meta. And, of course, they are all vulnerable to Knock Off.

From this unban, we might even see Magmar, Electabuzz, Larion, and Metang pop up from time to time, among the others listed numerous times.
 
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Super Blooper

Tactical Squid


Eviolite: UNBAN

As a deo-a player, I was all prepared to be very mad about eviolite becoming legal but...it doesn't do much. Dusclops is annoying, and Doublade and Rydon are very good. But with no reliable recovery and a huge weakness to knock off, they really aren't that great. I imagine there's a good way to make them better with a dedicated cleric but I haven't fought something like that yet to know. I also haven't encountered any shuckle teams, and can't imagine those are threatening enough to be a banworthy issue. As much as I hate it, there's really no reason to not allow eviolite with chansey gone.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Why not start discussing the viability of Shuckle teams instead of boldly telling us to.

How are you guys handling Swellow? I'm at a loss here, it's so difficult to handle... I've been using Corsola in the HP slot or Arceus-Rock. And that is pretty much it, too be honest. It hits so hard and Steel/Rock types don't usually have recovery. Sometimes it's to much, either I'm using my god, a Regenwest pokemon in the Sp.def slot or wasting the valuable HP slot on something dumb like Corsola.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
How are you guys handling Swellow? I'm at a loss here, it's so difficult to handle... I've been using Corsola in the HP slot or Arceus-Rock. And that is pretty much it, too be honest. It hits so hard and Steel/Rock types don't usually have recovery. Sometimes it's to much, either I'm using my god, a Regenwest pokemon in the Sp.def slot or wasting the valuable HP slot on something dumb like Corsola.
One thing I've used is CB TTar with 180/252+/0/0-/40/36 investment in the speed slot on various teams (generally Arceus). CB Tar already hits like a monster so you don't need offensive boosts, and this spread lets you switch in on specs BB with rocks up and pursuit trap it for the OHKO. You can also take 1 HP Fighting if rocks aren't up, so if you want to run scarf I guess that works too (but you'll want to adjust the EVs). It also checks Smeargle because you outspeed it (and everything up to max+ base 80s) and smash it to pieces.

(on mobile, can't post calcs/sets)
 
Why not start discussing the viability of Shuckle teams instead of boldly telling us to.

How are you guys handling Swellow? I'm at a loss here, it's so difficult to handle... I've been using Corsola in the HP slot or Arceus-Rock. And that is pretty much it, too be honest. It hits so hard and Steel/Rock types don't usually have recovery. Sometimes it's to much, either I'm using my god, a Regenwest pokemon in the Sp.def slot or wasting the valuable HP slot on something dumb like Corsola.
Klefki paralysis which forces it to switch or, if Klef dies, priority. Swellow is crippled by priority
 
Why not start discussing the viability of Shuckle teams instead of boldly telling us to.

How are you guys handling Swellow? I'm at a loss here, it's so difficult to handle... I've been using Corsola in the HP slot or Arceus-Rock. And that is pretty much it, too be honest. It hits so hard and Steel/Rock types don't usually have recovery. Sometimes it's to much, either I'm using my god, a Regenwest pokemon in the Sp.def slot or wasting the valuable HP slot on something dumb like Corsola.
Swellow has been the bane of my existence for around half of my teams. The safest option of dealing with it is a combination of priority, rocks, and super bulky rock types. I can't guarantee those are around with other sources of pressure. (Corsola isn't an embarrassing thing to put in the HP slot. It also handles Talonflame, and can be pretty annoying in its own right. Kind of like using Bronzong as a Rhydon check.)

...Or just outspeed it. Mewtwo god teams can pull that off. Heck, Mewtwo is incredibly underrated as a god in general. Scarf variants can creep offense, and it can live a Pikachu E-speed after rocks, if need be. And you have both Mega Mewtwos as options, which have both been proven as devastating.
 
Why not start discussing the viability of Shuckle teams instead of boldly telling us to.

How are you guys handling Swellow? I'm at a loss here, it's so difficult to handle... I've been using Corsola in the HP slot or Arceus-Rock. And that is pretty much it, too be honest. It hits so hard and Steel/Rock types don't usually have recovery. Sometimes it's to much, either I'm using my god, a Regenwest pokemon in the Sp.def slot or wasting the valuable HP slot on something dumb like Corsola.
Checks or counters? There are plenty of checks; however finding a Swellow counter is pretty hard. The #1 thing you will need is rocks up. Then you can use Tyranitar/Rhydon (SpD)/Klefki/Shuckle/Other Rock or Steel types, and force many switches. With that, you can check quite easily with priority, or anything faster than Swellow.
 
I haven't gotten reqs yet (and will probably not vote this time because of busy) so I'm gonna nom something.

B to A

Seriously Mewtwo is great in terms of both stat giver and the mon itself. We all know that in Deoxys-A teams, probably the most dangerous slot is the 150 Speed slot. Mewtwo also gives the same thing. Even though it's 130, it still outspeed many things. And it actually gives really high SpA and a fairly good HP and Atk. For the mon itself, I've been using MMX and it's REALLY great. It's fast, quite bulky (especially with Bulk Up) and it can stallbreak with Taunt + Bulk Up + Dual STAB or Taunt + 3 Attacks. And LO Mewtwo, while frailer, hits really hard and fares well vs Offense due to 130 Speed, which many other gods can't do. I think this deserves A rank.
 
I'd like to share a set which I've been using to patch up my swellow weakness.

Xerneas @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 88 HP / 184 SpA / 148 SpD / 88 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Thunderbolt/ focus blast
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Flash Cannon

You'll probably laugh at me having special defense on a scarf set, but this is what it takes to survive a 180 specs boomburst 100% of the time, and ohko with moonblast/thunderbolt. the evs reach 384 speed, which creeps swellow by one point. if it has 150 special attack or lower, you can switch into rocks too.

hidden power ground nails steels, ohko's magnezone

focus blast v thunderbolt is just preference, focus blast is probably better, as it hits ferroseed

flash cannon is to hits clefable on the switch, because it will think you're geomancy
 
Is Mega Ampharos a good pokemon to have on the Speed Slot for Deo-A and Arceus?
It's a good Talonflame Check, the bulk and the 165 base SpA with the speed boost makes it a good bulky sweeper right?

Ampharos-Mega @ Ampharosite
Ability: Static
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Magnet Rise
- Foul Play

Arceus @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Refresh
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Lava Plume
- Toxic

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Tail Glow
- Scald
- Ice Beam

Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Icicle Spear
- Shell Smash

Ampharos-Mega @ Ampharosite
Ability: Static
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast

This is supposed to be a more defensive team, so Arceus is God, chose Arceus-Normal for revenge kill on Smeargle, Talonflame, etc. Refresh set to avoid status, Klefki to Thunder Wave and set up Spikes, Heatran as a Stealth Rock setter and to Taunt, Manaphy is a good counter to Shuckle, 2HKO's a +3 Shuckle at +4 and rain, Rain Dance to boost Scald and support Thunder on Mega Ampharos, Cloyster is for hazard control and Toxic Spikes, Mega Ampharos for Swellow and Talonflame check and for late game sweeping.
 

zaephirian

Wi-Fi Blacklisted
I think Shuckle needs a suspect. I've been having lots of success with it. My team is as follows:

Shuckle (king of stall)
Talonflame / Pikachu (priority revenge killer)
Tentacruel (toxic spikes + spin)
Ditto (set up punisher)
Alomomola (wish passer)
Giratina (standard great wall)

Most thing are not prepared for a Rest + Sleeptalk + Toxic + Infestation. If your team can provide Burn for poisons and steels, Shuckle can wall and trap most mons (even Deoxys-A gifted) on the meta, or force you to set up hard which makes Ditto sweeps easy.
 

Blazenix

LAX NEVER LOSES
is a Pre-Contributor
I finally got time to ladder a bit for reqs, which doesn't matter at this point as hardly anyone voted to actually ban eviolite, and for good reasons. But that's just an excuse for me to showcase another team that I build and laddered with it :P



Eviolite : Unban
My reasoning for its unban is really just the same as everyone else, I dont think it needs any explanation as i'll just end up repeating what everyone else already mentioned but I guess i'll do it for the sake of it. Eviolite is a really cool addition to the metagame as it gives a major buff to bulkier teams to afford better partners like doublade and porygon 2, helping the team out check stuff like smeargle and primal groudon. So far I haven't seen a single pokemon that is broken with eviolite, sure they can be hard to take down but not has hard, deoxys attack teams are literally everywhere and each of them have knock off on the team ( It should at least ) and that doesn't mean other teams dont, its a great utility move that has no drawback for the user. If anything it helps in team building and having more reliable answer to certain threats a team could be weak to. The most common users of eviolite being rhydon, which is destroyed by strong special attackers with super effective coverage, scald is so common which instantly threatens it out and it can hardly do anything to bulky waters. Porygon 2 which has more utility and reliable recovery, allowing it to check NON-SD Pdon ( foul play has some usage and can hurt ) as it avoids 2HKO from all of its moves bar eruption and toxic to cripple and continue to stall it to death while also providing t-wave for speed control and has decent offensive presence with download bolt beam, as well as the ability to check threats based on their ability if it chooses trace as its ability.

So I have two variants of the same team, but with some changes, the first one being bulkier and the second one being pure offense.


KillerD (Doublade) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Atk / 104 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance

Kayamat (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 68 Def / 52 SpD / 56 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Fire Punch

Madara (Mewtwo) @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Fire Blast
- Psystrike
- Will-O-Wisp

Man Banaphy (Manaphy) @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Rain Dance
- Rest

#1 (Rhydon) @ Eviolite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Harden (Heracross-Mega) @ Heracronite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Rock Blast
- Pin Missile
- Bulk Up


Escor (Scizor-Mega) @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 60 Atk / 200 SpD
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite

Kayamat (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 68 Def / 52 SpD / 56 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Fire Punch

Madara (Mewtwo) @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Fire Blast
- Psystrike
- Will-O-Wisp

Juvia (Keldeo-Resolute) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Focus Blast

#1 (Rhydon) @ Eviolite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Whateversaurus (Tyranitar) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Superpower
- Stone Edge


I wanted to build an offense team for quicker games and make use of eviolite at least once as the advantages are too good to give up. Then I thought about which god I should use and decided to use mewtwo, which oddly enough isn't appreciated all that much imo. Mewtwo gives off a solid base SPATK and speed with usable defenses and good HP, the attack isnt that good tbh but it can work out.

I dont have much time to write as im busy these days so i'll have to keep this really short, sorry :[

Mewtwo : My choice of god was mewtwo, a very strong and fast wallbreaker with phenomenal coverage and utility, I decided to go with a life orb 3 attack wisp set, which is my most favorite as wisp allows it to cripple a bunch of threats it cannot take out. Psystrike is powerful STAB move, Fire Blast hits steel and Grass types like skarmory and Tangrowth hard, while aura sphere manages to nail Dark types like bisharp and tyranitar ( Focus blast is usable but I dont like the accuracy :[ )

Rhydon and
Doublade : Rhydon was my first choice, as it checks talonflame and swellow at the same time while also getting rocks up almost everytime and able to cripple bulky walls like tangrowth and alomomola with toxic. Doublade was the second choice as it checks espeed spam so well, SD to take advantage of targets that cant harm you much, gyro ball for stab and sneak for priority easily picking of the likes of Deoxys and other frail ghosts like gengar while sacred sword inflicts decent damage on dark types should they choose to switch in. The given ev spread is odd I must admit but It avoids 2HKO from CB tyranitar's crunch most of the time and 2HKO with Sacred Sword.

Mega Scizor And
Mega heracross : Heracross is a beast. Its an incredibly strong wall breaker, or even stallbreaker that given speed becomes one of the top tier threats in the metagame, it has good bulk and offensive coverage with massive attack and boosting options. Theres only a few things that actually deal with it reliably like physically defensive unaware clefable which is easy to take advantage of. Scizor is another option as it fairs well vs Deoxys attack and can set up on quite a bunch of the metagame with access to priority and reliable recovery.

Keldeo and
Manaphy : I decided to go with specs keldeo, which is one of my fav mons of all time to use. The moves are pretty self-explanatory, stab moves in scald and hydro and secret sword hitting specially defensive pokemons and focus blast hitting the links of tangrowth and such super hard, although it can swapped out for almost any other move of choice. Manaphy is more of a stallbreaker raindance set as hardly anything likes taking boosting scalds under rain while tail glow is generally better, calm mind helps match up other strong attackers like swellow if boosted enough and generally expand its longevity and means of survival.

Jirachi : Standard sub toxic rachi, taking advantage of various bulky walls like alomomola and especially shuckle without encore and toxicating them while racking up the damage fairly quickly with iron head flinches.

Tyranitar : Standard Bandtar with jolly as it actually helps it outspeed swellow and such and KO them with strong stab and coverage in super power ( to hits steels obv ).


Threats :

Primal Groudon : This thing is a freaking pain in the ass, it ha various possible sets that arent exactly easy to find out without having something dead on the team just for that.

Fast Wall breakers : Mega heragross, rampardos etc can be very threatening to deal with however its not an auto-lose and usually manageable.

Tyranitar : Or even fast pursuit trappers like bisharp can be a pain as they can trap doublade, jirachi and mewtwo and remove them from the field if faster greatly turning the tide of the game in their favors, however they must watch out for coverage moves and non of them can safely switch into either of those.

Tagging sin(pi) to add this late-submitted team to the sample if deemed worthy :]

(sorry i couldnt write much and make it look more fancy im just not getting enough time these days ;;;;; )
 
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I think Shuckle needs a suspect. I've been having lots of success with it. My team is as follows:

Shuckle (king of stall)
Talonflame / Pikachu (priority revenge killer)
Tentacruel (toxic spikes + spin)
Ditto (set up punisher)
Alomomola (wish passer)
Giratina (standard great wall)

Most thing are not prepared for a Rest + Sleeptalk + Toxic + Infestation. If your team can provide Burn for poisons and steels, Shuckle can wall and trap most mons (even Deoxys-A gifted) on the meta, or force you to set up hard which makes Ditto sweeps easy.
please don't start this again

Taunt completely shuts it down, and it's so passive any sweeper uses it as setup bait (and ik, ditto, but every team worth it's salt has a countermeasure for their own sweeper). Sure, it's better right now with MSab gone, but honestly with Eviolite Dusclops available atm (who is a far less passive thanks to Night Shade/Seismic Toss AND has a far superior defensive typing), it's hard to see why you wouldn't use Dusclops or literally any other super bulky Eviolite user over Shucknugget. ALL of the bulky Eviolite users are a thousand times less passive than Shuckle - Pory2's non STAB unboosted Ice Beam hits FAR harder than Infestation ever will, meaning it has something vaguely resembling offensive presence, unlike Shuckle. Furthermore, Shucknugget is a Pokemon that honestly has overkill bulk - It's far more than is needed 9 times out of 10. It's only real niche is taking on Specs Swellow a lot better than some other Eviolite users, but in a meta filled with super bulky walls, the Swellow's team is going to have some sort of stallbreaker that will shut down Shucknugget anyways. If Specs Swelllow is your stallbreaker, you're doing something wrong. It's no more broken than OU Chansey. Sure, it'll get wins vs bad low ladder teams without any sort of method for breaking Shucknugget, but against higher ladder play, Shuckle's going to be dead weight 9 times out of 10 because they'll hard switch into their stallbreaker, Taunt you/set up Sub with Serp and break you incredibly easily (Serp sets Leech Seed on you, Leaf Storms up on you, and Sub prevents Ditto from Impostoring you).

Also, I probably won't ladder for reqs because I'm likely to be busy over the next couple days and won't have time to ladder, not to mention unless a huge swarm of anti-Evioliters get reqs after this post, it looks an awful lot like Eviolite is getting unbanned, so it'll be a bit of a waste of time if I do aim for reqs.
 
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I think Shuckle needs a suspect. I've been having lots of success with it. My team is as follows:

Shuckle (king of stall)
Talonflame / Pikachu (priority revenge killer)
Tentacruel (toxic spikes + spin)
Ditto (set up punisher)
Alomomola (wish passer)
Giratina (standard great wall)

Most thing are not prepared for a Rest + Sleeptalk + Toxic + Infestation. If your team can provide Burn for poisons and steels, Shuckle can wall and trap most mons (even Deoxys-A gifted) on the meta, or force you to set up hard which makes Ditto sweeps easy.
I am seconding the notion that Shuckle is very much not enough of a threat to make it be suspected. I'd basically be in pure disbelief if it ever did get suspected.

The only reason why it's up so high in the VR in the first place is Encore, which is such an underrated move. Without it....

Shuckle is set-up fodder, ESPECIALLY by things with Substitute or Rest.

...We should put that in bold letters on the front page or something. We get this nonsense every week. It annoys me. If anything's worth a suspect, it's Serperior and Mega Heracross, but Talonflame shreds them both to bits, Deoxys-A or otherwise... Talonflame also shreds Shuckle to bits, thanks to Taunt + Roost.

And yes, Mega Ampharos is good in that speed slot, largely due to Volt Switch being an incredibly fast momentum tool, which Deoxys-A teams appreciate. 165 SpA Dragon Pulse also hurts a ton.
 
Is there any particular reason as to why no one talks about Swellow in the Attack slot, or do people just not realise how good it is? I mean sure SpA Swellow has much fewer counters and is harder the play around, but that doesn't diminish the fact the Atk Swellow is still extremely potent and offers a lot of extra utility that SpA Swellow doesn't, so I do strongly believe that Atk Swellow should also be listed on the VR.
What's important to note firstly is this:

(180 SpA) 252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 375-442 (98.1 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
(180 Atk) 252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 375-442 (98.1 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Same power. So why is everyone immediately drawn to SpA Swellow? Well it's because Scrappy invalidates Ghost types, Heat Wave allows it to take on Steels, and HP Fighting takes out Rock types, where as Atk Swellow has nothing. So it wins the coverage war with ease. Also it doesn't rely on status or Brave Bird so it has a far longer life span. You also don't need to wait a turn for your Orb to activate to obtain incredible power. These are very valid points and do make SpA Swellow a far more formidable threat that is much harder to check or counter, but this does not diminish the advantages of Atk Swellow, or make it a less viable pick.

Attack Swellow's most valuable niche to my experience is Guts, turning it into a formidable and extremely valuable status sponge for Hyper Offence. Being able to switch into Will-O-Wisp at any point of the match, or Thunder Waves once your Orb has activated is an extremely useful tool and can potentially save a lot of matches.
Another thing that Atk Swellow boasts is not needing to be Choice Locked to deal incredible damage. This is extremely useful as it means you get far more mileage out of U-Turn than SpA Swellow, due to being able to use it for escape after nuking something with your Normal STAB without sacrificing any momentum (Your U-Turn is also ofc far more powerful than that of SpA Swellow). Atk Swellow also boasts Guts boosted Quick Attack, which is a useful tool for picking off weakened targets on opposing offence (Ironically enough it's really good at revenge killing SpA Swellow after SR). Then ofc lastly you actually have a secondary STAB in Brave Bird, which is actually really powerful, however self destructive. It's still a handy tool to use sometimes.

So overall Atk Swellow is admittedly less threatening than SpA Swellow, but it still boasts the same incredible power, as well as being a status sponge, momentum grabber, and priority user, making it a worthy option for the Atk slot that deserves to be noted beside SpA Swellow on the viability rankings.
 
Is there any particular reason as to why no one talks about Swellow in the Attack slot, or do people just not realise how good it is? I mean sure SpA Swellow has much fewer counters and is harder the play around, but that doesn't diminish the fact the Atk Swellow is still extremely potent and offers a lot of extra utility that SpA Swellow doesn't, so I do strongly believe that Atk Swellow should also be listed on the VR.
What's important to note firstly is this:

(180 SpA) 252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 375-442 (98.1 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
(180 Atk) 252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 375-442 (98.1 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Same power. So why is everyone immediately drawn to SpA Swellow? Well it's because Scrappy invalidates Ghost types, Heat Wave allows it to take on Steels, and HP Fighting takes out Rock types, where as Atk Swellow has nothing. So it wins the coverage war with ease. Also it doesn't rely on status or Brave Bird so it has a far longer life span. You also don't need to wait a turn for your Orb to activate to obtain incredible power. These are very valid points and do make SpA Swellow a far more formidable threat that is much harder to check or counter, but this does not diminish the advantages of Atk Swellow, or make it a less viable pick.

Attack Swellow's most valuable niche to my experience is Guts, turning it into a formidable and extremely valuable status sponge for Hyper Offence. Being able to switch into Will-O-Wisp at any point of the match, or Thunder Waves once your Orb has activated is an extremely useful tool and can potentially save a lot of matches.
Another thing that Atk Swellow boasts is not needing to be Choice Locked to deal incredible damage. This is extremely useful as it means you get far more mileage out of U-Turn than SpA Swellow, due to being able to use it for escape after nuking something with your Normal STAB without sacrificing any momentum (Your U-Turn is also ofc far more powerful than that of SpA Swellow). Atk Swellow also boasts Guts boosted Quick Attack, which is a useful tool for picking off weakened targets on opposing offence (Ironically enough it's really good at revenge killing SpA Swellow after SR). Then ofc lastly you actually have a secondary STAB in Brave Bird, which is actually really powerful, however self destructive. It's still a handy tool to use sometimes.

So overall Atk Swellow is admittedly less threatening than SpA Swellow, but it still boasts the same incredible power, as well as being a status sponge, momentum grabber, and priority user, making it a worthy option for the Atk slot that deserves to be noted beside SpA Swellow on the viability rankings.
There are some things you missed on why SpA Swellow is better as well

1. Priority doesn't matter. The only priority that matters is +2 or +1 coming from something faster than Talonflame (which only occurs in Deo-a or Mewtwo speed slot)
2. Contact. This may sound stupid, but realize how common rocky helmet and ferro are to deter priority users like Smeargle, Pikachu and Talon (although it ends really badly with V-Create, Brick Break and guess). This is less important as you go higher, but in mid-tier it's extremely common
3. Frailty. This thing is gonna switch out anyway, so why bother giving it a choice when it'll switch out at the nearest sign of priority. And if you think late game is an option, well stealth rocks are a thing. You have 1/4 SR + 0 during getting poison set-up + another 1/4 SR on switch in to avoid death + 1/16 from poison turn 1 after switch in + 1/8 from poison turn 2 after attacking = 11/16 of your health gone after you kill something. Switch in once more and then you're dead.
 
Might as well post the team I've been using for a while now. It's centered around Xerneas and has performed pretty well on ladder.


Landorus-Therian @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- U-turn

Smeargle @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Mach Punch
- V-create

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 28 Def / 232 SpA / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Thunder

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Roost
- Brave Bird

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon


Centered around standard GeoXern (who is hilariously underprepared for), the rest of the team tries to weaken it's checks and counters. Defensive Xern-HP Lando-T is my Talonflame switchin, taking all but base 180 BANDED TFlame's Brave Bird. Xern-HP Lando is INSANELY bulky on the defensive side, and checks a shitload of physical attackers. Next, is offensive Smeargle. It's pretty much my RKer and is extremely good like oml. Silk Scarf to improve longevity as you'll be clicking FakeSpeed 9 times out of 10. FakeSpeed KOs pretty much anything offensive, Mach Punch RKs Tyranitars with DD or something daft. V-create hits Skarms. SubSeed Serperior is my stallbreaker, stall lacking TFlame is in for a real bad time and gives slower teams a huge problem in general. Sub can also dodge Impostor. Next, Xern Sp.Def Skarm is my "switchin" to Swellow. It also spikes stacks, weakening Xern checks like PDon for the eventual sweep. I do miss Defog sometimes, but weakening PDon is far more valuable. Finally, Magnezone is to trap steels and weaken/remove them for Xern and check Swellow/other fast elec weak birbs. It's pretty fast, too, with Xern Speed and Scarf.

Team struggles with Arc-Ghost and Sp.Atk Swellow, with the former being very bulky and forcing me to setup Xern early and the latter being VERY difficult to switchin on. Max Speed HP Ice Pikachu also look a bit difficult to beat. Fortunately it's so frail Magnezone does a lot to it with Flash Cannon, and if I can set up Xern, it can be manageable.
 
Is this the first time a suspect went with an unanimous vote to unban something? It might just be the case...
We should probably have a compendium of mons with huge attacking and defensive stats, and see which ones benefit the most from certain boosts.
 
Is this the first time a suspect went with an unanimous vote to unban something? It might just be the case...
We should probably have a compendium of mons with huge attacking and defensive stats, and see which ones benefit the most from certain boosts.
List of pokemon by attack (that are followers) to 120. I have dividers for Deo-A, Hoopa-U, (Primal) Groudon/Zekrom/Rayquaza/Deo-N, Mega Salamence, Xerneas/Yveltal, Ho-Oh, and Landorus-I

Bold are Mega Pokemon
Underlined are NFE Pokemon

Mega Heracross - 185
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deo-A
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​
Kyurem - 170
Mega Garchomp - 170
Mega Gallade - 165
Rampardos - 165
Mega Banette - 165
Mega Tyranitar - 164
Mega Diancie - 160
Slaking - 160
Regigigas - 160
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hoopa-U
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​
Mega Pinsir - 155
Mega Gyarados - 155
Mega Beedrill - 150
Mega Swamper - 150
Mega Scizor - 150
Mega Absol - 150
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deo-N/Groudon/Primal Groudon/Rayquaza/Zekrom
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​
Haxorus - 147
Mega Metagross - 145
Landorus Therian - 145
Mega Sharpeedo - 140
Rhyperior - 140
Conkeldurr - 140
Darmanitan - 140
Archeops - 140
Mega Aggron - 140
Mega Lopunny - 136
Salamence - 135
Metagross - 135
Gigalith - 135
Excadrill - 135
Escavalier- 135
Mega Aerodactyl - 135
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mega Salamence
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​
Dragonite - 134
Tyranitar - 134
Mega Abomasnow - 132
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xerneas/Yveltal
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​
Machamp - 130
Kingler - 130
Rhydon - 130
Flareon - 130
Scizor - 130
Ursaring - 130
Breloom - 130
Absol - 130
Garchomp - 130
Mamoswine - 130
Kyurem - 130
Mega Charizard - 130
Mega Latios - 130
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ho-Oh
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​
Terrakion - 129
Meloetta Pirouette - 128
Mega Steelix - 125
Pinsir - 125
Gyarados - 125
Heracross - 125
Armaldo - 125
Craniados - 125
Honchkrow - 125
Gallade - 125
Azelf - 125
Sawk - 125
Mienshao - 125
Bisharp - 125
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Landorus-I
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​
Golurk - 124
Pangoro - 124
Electivire - 123
Emboar - 123
Braviary - 123
Tyrantrum - 121
Mega Camerupt - 120
Mega Glalie - 120
Golem - 120
Hitmonlee - 120
Granbull - 120
Donphan - 120
Hariyama - 120
Sharpeedo - 120
Crawdant - 120
Staraptor - 120
Luxray - 120
Weavile - 120
Druddigon - 120
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arceus/Blaziken/Dialga/Genesect/Gira-O/Kyurem-W/Palkia/Reshiram
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: Fixing dividers
Edit 2: Fixing Aero error
 
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K now for some discussion before moving to defense (really wanna talk about a certain mon there)

Mega Heracross A+ -> S
How is this thing not S? It has almost perfect coverage, breaks sashes (which are surprisingly common), outspeeds so many things, is bulky as fuck, can get a +1 with moxie if lucky, and more. First, it hits only 5 mons not very effective, being the Aegi line and Toxicroak line. It hits the majority of mons for super effective mons, 577 total. All of its moves are at least 120 base power. It breaks sashes because of the multi-hitting mechanic, being that you can kill a suicide lead like deo-a if you predict. This part I'm not sure if true, but I believe that it gets its full 185 attack after the first hit, which is huge for a mega pokemon. It can live almost any espeed thrown at it at least once
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 195-231 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 156-185 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252+ Atk Arceus-Ghost Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 239-282 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 211-250 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ok it can take a hit fairly well, but can it hit back? Yes. This hits back like a truck with 185 base attack and 125 base power. You're most likely not living. Anything without insane defense is going to die. Also, it goes to 399 speed when adamant, meaning almost anything is getting outsped
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 610-730 (209.6 - 250.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 482-570 (126.1 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 245-290 (80.8 - 95.7%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 370-440 (153.5 - 182.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Alomomola: 360-430 (67.5 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 144 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 255-305 (72.2 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Heracross, however, has 3 major downsides: Talonflame, typing and (bad) luck

First, Talon. This should be obvious, as Heracross is 4x weak to flying and Talonflame is running all over the meta. While it can't switch in directly due to SR and rock blast, it still poses a huge threat and prevents Hera from sweeping. The second is typing, as bug is a horrible offensive STAB being resisted by 7 different types. Also, bug gives it a 4x flying weakness. Finally, bad luck. Rock blast has 90% accuracy and pin missile has 95% accuracy. This can lead to many frustrating moments when you miss during a critical time. This is what really holds back Hera from being practically perfect. However, if you ignore accuracy, you get a mon worth at least an S rank in terms of pure power. Plus, it fills the speed slot.

Edit: Removed bad calc
Edit2: lying is bad, flying is better (fixed typo)
 
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just wondering but what value did you use to calculate that swellow boomburst damage against mega heracross? if you dont have a resist AND invested defenses boomburst should be a ohko every time, so something must be wrong.

i do agree that mega heracross is a huge problem. it only has one mon that stands up to it which is unaware clefable. its so tanky which means it is very hard to revenge for offensive teams, while stomping all over slower defensive teams. swords dance is particularly worrisome.
 
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