david0895
Mercy Main Btw
"zero offensive presence" my butt. (Sorry but it was too funny)
Rock slide, stone edge, earthquake, knock off... with a possible 150 atk I don't think that is "zero offensive presence".
Also there's mental herb for taunt
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Gifts of the Gods
- Thread starter sin(pi)
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Rock slide, stone edge, earthquake, knock off... with a possible 150 atk I don't think that is "zero offensive presence".
Also there's mental herb for taunt
This is why Gen 7 needs to come through and bless Shuckle the god with Accelerock
Contrary to popular opinion, listing a variety of mediocre Shuckle sets (a hyper-passive high-HP set, a risky high-Spe Power Trick set that can't apply offensive pressure, and an Atk set that is thoroughly outclassed) does not magically imbue Shuckle with the best properties of each set. It's either the least-useless setter of a niche entry hazard or it's just plain bad. It's only being discussed this seriously because some people see big numbers and immediately stop thinking critically.
This entire discussion is really fucking stupid, so let's discuss other interesting mons. Like Mega Diancie. With a high HP stat, you can basically pick two-and-a-half of fast, bulky, and powerful. What sets do you plan on running?
Or if we want to stick with bulkmons, Alomomola can inherit high Def or SpD very well, which is nice since most OU-or-lower walls prefer to inherit high HP stats. Unlike Shuckle, it has reliable recovery, a great ability, and Scald to annoy most opponents. It can easily wall most unboosted mons... on one side of the spectrum. Eh, nobody's perfect.
248 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD (120 SpD) Alomomola: 127-150 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 13.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 36 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola (120 Def): 121-144 (25.2 - 30%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
And how about a third discussion question, so take your pick: What Arceus formes are you gonna try? I personally can't decide between Ghost and Steel.
MAMP
MAMP!
Are you saying that Shadow Tag has been unbanned? Because if this is following OU bans then STag should be banned by default.
I think he meant that Stag isn't COMPLETELY banned but instead "any Stag mons are automatically recognized as an Uber" because Stag itself is banned in OU. In that case I agree.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
Sorry, I meant what Chopin said. Edited post to clarify.
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re Shuckle: At the moment, Shuckle (in the HP slot) is being presented as a Pokémon for stall teams. However, it is weak to rocks, lacks reliable recovery and has no offensive presence (ie is easily worn down and loses horribly to Taunt). It also (and this is possibly the biggest problem) competes with Mega Sableye massively - Sableye provides Magic Bounce and has an excellent typing and movepool for stall, and has very good bulk on teams such as Lugia/Giratina/Arceus. Shuckle does wall Swellow fairly well (252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow (180 SpA) Hidden Power Rock vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle (150 HP) 98-116 (19.4 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery, and no-one uses HP Rock), but I don't personally think this warrants it a slot over MSab, generally speaking.
On offensive teams, Shuckle has some utility as a suicide lead with Webs+SR, but in that case I don't think the argument of "it walls everything plsban" holds quite as well (it might prefer to go in the Speed slot, and faces competition from Deo forms and Smeargle in any case). I'd like to see more on this before coming to any sort of decision.
Shuckle in the attack slot is irrelevant to this discussion because it's nothing other that a meme, you're better off with TTar or something.
tl;dr I'm pretty opposed to suspecting Shuckle as things currently stand.
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One other thing which I just realised: I'm not sure how this is handled in the code, but currently, the Ubers slot should be exempt from BP Clause. The only Pokémon this affects are Mega Mawile and (Mega) Blaziken, both of which offer poor stats to their team (given that you receive the base form's stats). My question is, should Ubers be forced to follow OU's BP Clause? It's not consistent with our handling of STag, but I'm inclined to go through with this because I don't want to deal with quickpass.
edit: also PM me if you want to join the soon-to-be-established™ council
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Again. This will raise a question, which is: Are you fine with having Blaziken as your god? Mawile is irrelevant because even though it can theoritically bypass the OU BP clause by being an Uber, it has no speed boosting moves. So the only possible mon for this is Blaziken with Speed Boost.
K. Let's talk about Blaziken. Blaziken has 80 / 120 / 70 / 110 / 70 / 80 stats. So if it were become your god, you'd need two of your mons occupy 80 in HP or Speed and 70 in either Def or SpD. And it gives... only 120 Atk and 110 SpA. While it's decent, It's fairly mediocre to basically sacrifice three of your team members with bad stats to get two... decent but not that "powerful" (my definition of powerful is 140 or more so basically Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza gives two "powerful" stats). In this case, you "nerf" three of your mons for two mons with just decent buff and the ability to bypass OU Baton Pass Clause.
My thoughts? First of all, Talonflame exists. Same goes for Hustle Togekiss (It's Espeed hits as hard as Arceus with Arceus' stats btw, so it can be pretty good) and the ever so common Extremespeeding Arceus. Second, I think it's a bad trade, trading 3 bad stats for 2 at least decent stats just to bypass BP Clause. If you want to easily sweep, use Xerneas (which I think it's the 3rd best god after Arceus and Deo A). Xerneas is just as effective as in Ubers, sweeping teams easily and it gives three good stats while two decent but not bad stats. I've been having some success running Xerneas teams before the ladder reverted back to Mix and Mega. Blaziken is just not worth it.
Conclusion? No need implement BP Clause to Uber mons IMO. But well, we don't know yet because this is all just theory. If in ladder it poses a problem then we can look into it. But I don't think it will.
>neither Shuckle carries encore
>One shuckle beats another shuckle via PP stall and then loses
>shackle ban.
Just woke up so this won't likely be the biggest post in the world.
Keldeo may be good for the attack slot. For one, it has an ability that makes use of its attack stat that would be useless otherwise. Second, physical Keldeo gets priority in Aqua Jet, STAB moves in Close Combat and Aqua Tail, and Stone Edge/X-Scissor (?) as coverage.
Let's think of all the things Deoxys-A can support to its team. It can give away its shitty defenses to mons that don't care about it like Weavile, attack stat to Breloom, Mega Charizards, Heracross (especially mega), Talonflame, Cloyster (off the top of my head), special attack to Serperior, Nape maybe, and speed, almost every Pokemon in the game will benefit from Deoxys-A's amazing speed. Deoxys-A itself is also pretty powerful. It could take the def or special def slot.
I'd also love to see what special/speedy Black Kyurem is capable of. Keep in mind I just woke up and I haven't made a team yet, though I'll be doing it now. I'll post replays if they have anything noteworthy.
Keldeo may be good for the attack slot. For one, it has an ability that makes use of its attack stat that would be useless otherwise. Second, physical Keldeo gets priority in Aqua Jet, STAB moves in Close Combat and Aqua Tail, and Stone Edge/X-Scissor (?) as coverage.
Let's think of all the things Deoxys-A can support to its team. It can give away its shitty defenses to mons that don't care about it like Weavile, attack stat to Breloom, Mega Charizards, Heracross (especially mega), Talonflame, Cloyster (off the top of my head), special attack to Serperior, Nape maybe, and speed, almost every Pokemon in the game will benefit from Deoxys-A's amazing speed. Deoxys-A itself is also pretty powerful. It could take the def or special def slot.
I'd also love to see what special/speedy Black Kyurem is capable of. Keep in mind I just woke up and I haven't made a team yet, though I'll be doing it now. I'll post replays if they have anything noteworthy.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
It shouldn't be allowed, no; the rest of the team should follow OU Clauses and bans.
tagging The Immortal
Taunt beats it ez. Also it's passive as all unholy hell so it's Serp and Talon fodder. Talonflame with Taunt especially. It's really not broken. Annoying if you're not prepared for it, but otherwise manageable. At least Chansey could do 100 HP of damage lol. You can break it by setting up on it, or, again, Taunt, and probably along with Toxic. Speaking of which, it's easily worn down. Stallbreaker Tran beats it, Taunt BU Talon beats it, Serp beats it, Taunt anything/fast boosters beat it lol. Not to mention it HAS to run Rest in order to not autolose to status.
tl;dr - It's not broken, Taunt + Boosting + Toxic can all beat it. Annoying af but not broken.
So, I've been laddering a bit and made it to top 30 (but tbh that's high 1100s atm so not exactly bragging rights lmao) using sin(pi) 's Deo-A team and oml it works. Another thing I've noticed is a tonne of teams on the ladder are running Deo-A - Tonnes of stuff adore the boosts it can give to basically any offensive 'mon. I saw a few others (Groudon, Ho-oh, and Rayquaza) but the majority were either Godless low ladder teams or Deo-A, heavily implying it's the best God around for laddering, esp. seeing as I used a team with one myself. Swellow and Linoone put in the finest of work - after weakening of a few 'mons, Swellow flat out swept with Boomburst spamming, and it OHKOd some VERY bulky Pokemon (Mega Blastoise for example). If Linoone set up and they lacked a faster Ghost that could KO (basically consists of Gengar and Mega Gengar), or a faster ESpeeder Linoone auto-won more or less. tbh though it did a tonne of work, even without Bely Drum. Rampardos was... ok, but tbh it missed more Head Smashes than it hit, and bulky grounds were very problematic for it b/c the strongest attack it had to hit them was Superpower, which, surprisingly, didn't KO. Unfortunately, it doesn't get Ice Punch. Maybe Sheer Force Surf? Rock Polish was never used really, neither was SD. Due to the lack of any real stall on ladder so far, and the ridiculous amount of offense, I'd say it's setup opportunities are almost non existent, outside of forcing out Talonflame and setting up on the switch. btw what does Mold Breaker even touch that Sheer Force doesn't? imo when I use the team again I'll change it to Surf > Rock Polish b/c Rock Polish is kind of meh imo.
E: Surf doesn't get a SF boost lol
E2: Rampardos is adamant lmao
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LatiasDigs
formerly digitalson
you forgot liechi berry
In case I want to have a Soul Dew Latios on my team, should that be counted as the Uber?
Same for Shadow Tag etc
I feel light ball should at least a suspect
U can run DEO-A and give pikachu 180 base atk
With lightball u can reach 1008 physical attack with no boosts
On top of that pikachu can run either
fake out-quick attack
Or extremespeed
With volt takle to run over opponents walls
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 414-487 (82.1 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is m sableye with 150 bsse hp from giratina
If there wasnt the 112 evs in def, surely would be a 1hko without SR
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 339-400 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This means u cant switch into his thing
And talon flame is powerful too
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 255-300 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not as strong but priority brave bird is strong
I sthink this should ATLEAST be a suspect
Heck even medichamite isnt as broken as light ball
(or maybe equally broken)
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 348-409 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Even a 180 base ad choice band victini vcreate dosnt do as much dmg as a frikin pikachu aand V-create arguably has worse side effects than a recoil and is choiced as well not to mention V create is not 100% accurate as well
U can run DEO-A and give pikachu 180 base atk
With lightball u can reach 1008 physical attack with no boosts
On top of that pikachu can run either
fake out-quick attack
Or extremespeed
With volt takle to run over opponents walls
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 414-487 (82.1 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is m sableye with 150 bsse hp from giratina
If there wasnt the 112 evs in def, surely would be a 1hko without SR
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 339-400 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This means u cant switch into his thing
And talon flame is powerful too
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 255-300 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not as strong but priority brave bird is strong
I sthink this should ATLEAST be a suspect
Heck even medichamite isnt as broken as light ball
(or maybe equally broken)
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 348-409 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Even a 180 base ad choice band victini vcreate dosnt do as much dmg as a frikin pikachu aand V-create arguably has worse side effects than a recoil and is choiced as well not to mention V create is not 100% accurate as well
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Can confirm that Deo-A is actually pretty bonkers. I've been running Swellow in SpAtk and Guts Ursaring in Speed, and they're both pretty brutal. So far the biggest problem has been Talonflame. 120 Attack Brave Birds is pretty obnoxious, though maybe I just need to start running it myself. It does nearly invalidate Deoxys Offense all by itself (I've only been able to deal with it if Deo-A's sash hadn't been broken yet, or it was low enough to revenge with ESpeed outright), and since there's so many other options for Offense that are still excellent (Either Primal, Kyurem-W, Rayquaza) I don't really see enough traction to get it looked at.
EDIT: Yeah, Silk Scarf Adamant Linoone has a good chance of OHKOing Talonflame with Extreme Speed, so it's something I may try.
EDIT: Yeah, Silk Scarf Adamant Linoone has a good chance of OHKOing Talonflame with Extreme Speed, so it's something I may try.
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I've never had trouble vs any pikachus. Remember that Pikachu dies with any hit. It has defenses equivalent to Dugtrio lol. And remember. It's quite slow. Just carry anything that resist Espeed with more than 90 Speed and you're good. It can't even sweep and because it dies to any hits, you can't afford to stay even on 2HKOd mons. It's not that good, really.
I think Talonflame is the one that needs a suspect. It's pretty crazy because the fact that it has a priority Brave Bird coming off 120+ Attack makes it HUGELY RESTRICTING for both Offense and Balance to teambuild. I'm not calling for suspect on basis that it's broken since nearly everything is broken here. But I'm calling for suspect on basis that it screwed up teambuilding to a degree of it has a problem. With resists now getting 2HKO'd, I'm just frustrated that Talonflame limits teambuilding so much. It's kinda like Blissey/Chansey, but for Offense, though not as bad. This is my opinion though, maybe others doesn't agree.
Also ban Soul Dew.
I think Talonflame is the one that needs a suspect. It's pretty crazy because the fact that it has a priority Brave Bird coming off 120+ Attack makes it HUGELY RESTRICTING for both Offense and Balance to teambuild. I'm not calling for suspect on basis that it's broken since nearly everything is broken here. But I'm calling for suspect on basis that it screwed up teambuilding to a degree of it has a problem. With resists now getting 2HKO'd, I'm just frustrated that Talonflame limits teambuilding so much. It's kinda like Blissey/Chansey, but for Offense, though not as bad. This is my opinion though, maybe others doesn't agree.
I think it doesn't invalidate just Deo A offense. It kinda invalidates MANY kinds of offense. Like, Kyogre Rain teams or Regular Groudon Sun teams can be viable if it's not for Talonflame. I don't know if it should be banned yet but it needs a suspect I think.
Also ban Soul Dew.
Well, part of why I'm a little hesitant to call for a Talonflame suspect is that a lot of Ubers patch up both HP and Defense problems. Primal Groudon in particular imparts base 100 HP (Mega Diancie would love that) and 160 Defense (basically any non-Uber could do work with that). I know from Nature Swap that positive base 126 CB Brave Bird OHKOs anything with less than 100/100 uninvested bulk, but we're getting a LOT of Pokemon with that bulk and better, so until Deo-A/Primal Groudon Talonflame becomes more common and starts messing up the metagame I say we leave it.
No comment on Soul Dew, it bypassing God Clause is super busted and needs to GTFO.
No comment on Soul Dew, it bypassing God Clause is super busted and needs to GTFO.
Can we perhaps put a suspect on Shuckle? It's downright broken ,especially if you put in in the HP slot of mons like Giratina and Arceus. I see it on very many teams and it's very frustrating to deal with.
I and many others already posted about how it's not broken so I'll leave this here.
Literally any stallbreaker beats it lmao
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Shuckle is great, but not amazing. It can be extremely annoying and passive, but is easily beaten by pokemon like Serperior as said. Not broken, just great and annoying
Now for Pika the God. Pikachu is amazing as a revenge killer, almost as good as Arceus. When paired with Deo-A, it has a total attack of 1008. It also has priority as well as access to knock off. It can 1-shot Talon, so it's never a problem for me. Here's Mew vs Arceus as a frame of reference for damage
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 245-289 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 352-415 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
This can provide a sort-of Arceus-lite with it sacrificing defenses for power. It does, however, have a lot of flaws
Pikachu relies on hazards a lot, since espeed isn't STAB and commonly misses kills. Talonflame isn't good against it b/c of recoil damage from which I sack one of my leads. It also can't run volt tackle or fake out with espeed, so it needs to use wild charge or thunder punch, in which both are horrible main STAB. Finally, Pikachu doesn't have any coverage outside of knock-off and brick break, which is sub-par. These things hold it back, making Pikachu Only great, not amazing. Plus killing stuff with Pika the God is a lot of fun.
Now for Pika the God. Pikachu is amazing as a revenge killer, almost as good as Arceus. When paired with Deo-A, it has a total attack of 1008. It also has priority as well as access to knock off. It can 1-shot Talon, so it's never a problem for me. Here's Mew vs Arceus as a frame of reference for damage
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 245-289 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 352-415 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
This can provide a sort-of Arceus-lite with it sacrificing defenses for power. It does, however, have a lot of flaws
Pikachu relies on hazards a lot, since espeed isn't STAB and commonly misses kills. Talonflame isn't good against it b/c of recoil damage from which I sack one of my leads. It also can't run volt tackle or fake out with espeed, so it needs to use wild charge or thunder punch, in which both are horrible main STAB. Finally, Pikachu doesn't have any coverage outside of knock-off and brick break, which is sub-par. These things hold it back, making Pikachu Only great, not amazing. Plus killing stuff with Pika the God is a lot of fun.
While Groudon has to use its ordinary form boosts, there are still plenty of stops to Talonflame, due to everything gaining more bulk. I wouldn't oppose a suspect of some of the common threats a bit later, but I feel that this needs to develop a bit more before we pass judgment on potential powerhouses.
Speaking of powerhouses, here's one that I have not seen used.
Suicune @ Leftovers/Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Ice Beam
Stick this in the Special Attack slot, and suddenly, Suicune is not just a passive booster, but an aggressive one that can 2HKO Arceus after just one boost, among other feats not associated with such a bulky threat. I used Dialga as my god, and this gave great results. You'll have to Calm Mind a fair bit before you can take Grass/Electric attacks from aggressive mons, such as Serperior.
Speaking of powerhouses, here's one that I have not seen used.
Suicune @ Leftovers/Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Ice Beam
Stick this in the Special Attack slot, and suddenly, Suicune is not just a passive booster, but an aggressive one that can 2HKO Arceus after just one boost, among other feats not associated with such a bulky threat. I used Dialga as my god, and this gave great results. You'll have to Calm Mind a fair bit before you can take Grass/Electric attacks from aggressive mons, such as Serperior.
I've found an amazing counter to Talonflame: Rhyperior. It takes hits from Talonflame like nothing, and it Stone Edges it to death. It's also useful in the speed slot if getting a huge speed boost (Deoxys-A for example).
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
Yes, it should. If we can't get the code to do that, then I'll just ban Soul Dew etc.
If you want to bring something up for a suspect, please support your argument with replays (at least 3, preferably more). Theorymon is all well and good, but a lot of things which sound amazing fail to work out in practice.