Gifts of the Gods

[The_Augster_at_NK]

Fisrt of all, I'd like to apologize for requsting Shuckle to be suspected without reading all of the comments first. I mistakenly thought there was only one page of comments. :P

Could I get some feedback on this no doubt likely mediocre team?

this team sucks kek

Shuckle @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Encore
- Sticky Web
- Protect
- Toxic

Talonflame
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Swords Dance

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Sludge Bomb

Crobat @ Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball

Mewtwo @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psystrike
- Energy Ball
- Shadow Ball

Garchomp-Mega @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
- Shadow Claw

 

[Pipotchi]

it might be stating the obvious but clefable is S tier already in OU with garbage stats. im finding a defense boost on an arceus team can be excellent and can perform a bunch of different roles, either unaware tank/cleric or calm minder.

edit: why is everyone using high hp shuckles? it seems so pathetic and passive lol, especially in a meta where mega sableye is so absurdly good

 

[The_Augster_at_NK]

it might be stating the obvious but clefable is S tier already in OU with garbage stats. im finding a defense boost on an arceus team can be excellent and can perform a bunch of different roles, either unaware tank/cleric or calm minder.

edit: why is everyone using high hp shuckles? it seems so pathetic and passive lol, especially in a meta where mega sableye is so absurdly good

I'd love to use a high HP mega sableye on my team but I don't want to sacrifice mega chomp, having 130 speed +170 attack is too good to pass up.

 

[chartung17]

why is everyone using high hp shuckles? it seems so pathetic and passive lol, especially in a meta where mega sableye is so absurdly good

Because it's virtually indestructible unless you have either Taunt (to keep it from using Rest) or the ability to boost one of your attack stats to ridiculous levels. I've been using Hoopa Unbound, and even with Hoopa's high attack and special attack stats, my strongest supereffective attacks only do like 30% damage, even before it starts boosting its defenses with Shell Smash. It might be passive, and it might be easy to beat if you have the right moves, but give it Infestation, Rest, and Shell Smash, and it can sweep teams that aren't prepared for it.

 

[Renegade Enchidio]

Because it's virtually indestructible unless you have either Taunt (to keep it from using Rest) or the ability to boost one of your attack stats to ridiculous levels. I've been using Hoopa Unbound, and even with Hoopa's high attack and special attack stats, my strongest supereffective attacks only do like 30% damage, even before it starts boosting its defenses with Shell Smash. It might be passive, and it might be easy to beat if you have the right moves, but give it Infestation, Rest, and Shell Smash, and it can sweep teams that aren't prepared for it.

Mega Sableye does the same thing, it just has lower defenses, but Shuckle's defenses are overkill. Plus, Mega Sableye has Magic Bounce, actual offensive stats, Will-o-Wisp, and more.

 

[Hourai]

Mega Sableye does the same thing, it just has lower defenses, but Shuckle's defenses are overkill. Plus, Mega Sableye has Magic Bounce, actual offensive stats, Will-o-Wisp, and more.

And it has an actually decent defensive typing, with only one weakness and three immunities

 

[chartung17]

Mega Sableye does the same thing, it just has lower defenses, but Shuckle's defenses are overkill. Plus, Mega Sableye has Magic Bounce, actual offensive stats, Will-o-Wisp, and more.

I haven't yet seen Mega Sableye in the first slot, but it, unlike Shuckle, can die to status (from Mold Breaker, Scald, Toxic Spikes, etc.) due to most likely having Recover instead of Rest, and since it's got half of Shuckle's defenses and no way to boost its defenses, strong enough supereffective attacks can kill it. It also can't switch in as easily as Shuckle because its defenses are so low pre-Mega.

And it has an actually decent defensive typing, with only one weakness and three immunities

Defensive typing doesn't matter much if your defenses are so high that a supereffective hit from a 500 attack stat does 30% damage.

 

[NestorKennard]

Can confirm that Deo-A is actually pretty bonkers. I've been running Swellow in SpAtk and Guts Ursaring in Speed, and they're both pretty brutal. So far the biggest problem has been Talonflame. 120 Attack Brave Birds is pretty obnoxious, though maybe I just need to start running it myself. It does nearly invalidate Deoxys Offense all by itself (I've only been able to deal with it if Deo-A's sash hadn't been broken yet, or it was low enough to revenge with ESpeed outright), and since there's so many other options for Offense that are still excellent (Either Primal, Kyurem-W, Rayquaza) I don't really see enough traction to get it looked at.

EDIT: Yeah, Silk Scarf Adamant Linoone has a good chance of OHKOing Talonflame with Extreme Speed, so it's something I may try.

Funny, I tried Deoxys-A too, but Talonflame wasn't a problem. (I have a Gigalith in my (no-)SpDef slot, and several priorities, mainly Smeargle with technician Fake-out + E-speed in the attack slot.)
I didn't think about Guts Ursaring. That's seems brutal. But I think I still prefer my Marowak for the speed slot.

 

[Renegade Enchidio]

M-Sab only minds poison, and even then, Defog users/Rapid Spinners are necessary for almost any team, so Toxic Spikes isn't really popular. Also, M-Sab does have a way to boost its defenses in Calm Mind. How do they do against Band Talonflame (a common mon)?
NOTE: Talonflame is 180 attack assuming Deoxys-A god, and M-Sab and Shuckle are 150 HP assuming Giratina is god.
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 307-363 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 153-181 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 102-121 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 192-226 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Shuckle Bug Buzz (Infestation) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 1-2 (0.3 - 0.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Keep in mind none of these use Adamant. SD Talonflame also overpowers it, too.
Shuckle is also weak to Stealth Rock and can be Toxic'd/Will-o-Wisp'd. I could think of more reasons, but these're just some off the top of my head.

 

[chartung17]

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 192-226 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Shuckle Bug Buzz (Infestation) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 1-2 (0.3 - 0.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Keep in mind none of these use Adamant. SD Talonflame also overpowers it, too.
Shuckle is also weak to Stealth Rock and can be Toxic'd/Will-o-Wisp'd. I could think of more reasons, but these're just some off the top of my head.

Contrary Shell Smash + Rest will beat that Choice Band Talonflame (barring critical hits). Stealth Rock/Toxic/Will-o-Wisp won't kill Shuckle because it has Rest.

 

[Hourai]

Contrary Shell Smash + Rest will beat that Choice Band Talonflame (barring critical hits). Stealth Rock/Toxic/Will-o-Wisp won't kill Shuckle because it has Rest.

But then your offense will be next to zero. And if you're running a RestTalk set with that, your only ways of dealing damage would be Toxic and Infestation. So either way, trying to use a pretty unviable set to justify being wrong is just sad.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

Shuckle can, and probably will, Shell Smash in Talonflame's face to avoid that 3HKO. But Talonflame can run Taunt to beat Shuckle, no questions asked.

Shuckle still hates facing Steel types. If they have recovery, they flat-out win. (the game) Failing that, though, you need a way around Toxic. Or just a really strong SE move + mon, which are in plentiful supply.

Talonflame, on the other hand, still dislikes Rock types. And Rocks. It really hurts (and might do that to the meta, too), but can be worked around, due to having lackluster bulk. Still. (Unless you invest in its defenses for some reason...)

 

[chartung17]

But then your offense will be next to zero. And if you're running a RestTalk set with that, your only ways of dealing damage would be Toxic and Infestation. So either way, trying to use a pretty unviable set to justify being wrong is just sad.

Why would Shuckle have Sleep Talk? Give it Toxic, Rest, Infestation, and either Sticky Web or Stealth Rock.
Toxic+Infestation can kill anything that doesn't have recovery, unless it can kill Shuckle first, which hardly anything can without boosting. If you can't kill it with supereffective attacks from an Atk or SpAtk stat of 500, and you can't kill it with status, and it can kill anything without recovery (and anything with recovery that is affected by Toxic), then it might not be unbeatable, but it is certainly not unviable.

Edit: Forgot about Shell Smash. It can only have two out of Toxic/Shell Smash/Sticky Web/Stealth Rock, but it can still beat a lot of powerful Pokémon without Shell Smash, it can still do damage without Toxic, and it can still be effective without entry hazards (especially if one of its teammates sets up rocks first). If I were to run one, I'd leave out the hazards and give it Toxic/Infestation/Shell Smash/Rest.

Or just a really strong SE move + mon, which are in plentiful supply.

Not in my experience. I've tried and failed with strong supereffective moves.

 

[Pipotchi]

Because it's virtually indestructible unless you have either Taunt (to keep it from using Rest) or the ability to boost one of your attack stats to ridiculous levels. I've been using Hoopa Unbound, and even with Hoopa's high attack and special attack stats, my strongest supereffective attacks only do like 30% damage, even before it starts boosting its defenses with Shell Smash. It might be passive, and it might be easy to beat if you have the right moves, but give it Infestation, Rest, and Shell Smash, and it can sweep teams that aren't prepared for it.

this is an OM with super-walls everywhere, there's no way any half-decent team has no stallbreaking. shuckle stands out from other available walls by having literally no offensive presence or ability to respond to being taunted, so it is beaten by the vast majority of things. whats more, its totally one-dimensional and there are no special moves to watch out from when breaking this type of shuckle, so anyone can easily prepare for it.

and vs stall, shuckle is truly pitiful. for instance on my team, i can ignore shuckle with 5 out of my 6 pokemon. i can happily switch around and set up whatever i like, then phaze it. or i can pp stall it out. mega sableye alone is usually enough though.


edit: i gotta ask, what solutions do people use for serperior on stall? i use a skarmory, but the only surefire defensive counter ive found has been arceus-poison or heatran if the serperior is inheriting 180 spa.

 

[Renegade Enchidio]

i gotta ask, what solutions do people use for serperior on stall? i use a skarmory, but the only surefire defensive counter ive found has been arceus-poison or heatran if the serperior is inheriting 180 spa.

I use Talonflame. Talonflame destroys every Serperior.

 

[bp scrub]

lol smeargle is honestly not even that bad as an offensive mon
[url]http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/giftsofthegods-449740792

[/URL]

 

[lolnopound]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/giftsofthegods-449750900

80 turns pp stalling shuckle and then sweeping with suicune

 

[lolnopound]

Would anyone be interested in me making a discussion video about the meta, the top gods, and the best mons for certain boosts? It won't be gospel since I am not that good, but it will be my thoughts

 

[viol and bass]

So I've got a doozy of a set. God I'm using is Kyurem-W, gifting 170 special attack.

Swellow @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Air Slash
- Heat Wave
- U-turn / Defog

So you will never use any move other than Boomburst, but any mon with 125 base speed and 170 special attack using a STAB-boosted 140 BP attack with no immunities is gonna break some holes. This does that in spades. It's a wallbreaker that due to its incredible (less so in this meta) base speed can hold its own against offense.

 

[vegeta00007]

Spa from arceus
0 SpA Grandpa Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 408-484 (137.3 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 97-116 (24 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery


Grandpa says NOPE and if talon makes the wise decision to switch, he comes in with stealth rocks(unless u have defog whih is common)

Just for the lols :

252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 48-57 (11.8 - 14.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Bear in mid this is he 180 atk from deo-A

 

[Stocke]

Spa from arceus
0 SpA Grandpa Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 408-484 (137.3 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 97-116 (24 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery


Grandpa says NOPE and if talon makes the wise decision to switch, he comes in with stealth rocks(unless u have defog whih is common)

Just for the lols :

252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 48-57 (11.8 - 14.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Bear in mid this is he 180 atk from deo-A

imo if you're going to use Relicanth you should probably hook it up with something that gives it a substantial Attack increase, Rock Head Head Smash is a really useful asset to have and I think Relicanth has enough natural physical bulk to set up with Rock Polish for a sweep (resisting Brave Bird and Extreme Speed helps out with this). giving it a Speed increase also seems like a decent option if you want to hit hard and fast right off the bat with a Choice Band, though bear in mind the consequences of being move-locked.

this is all theorymon though as I haven't actually used Relicanth, so you can take it with a grain of salt

 

[chartung17]

Spa from arceus
0 SpA Grandpa Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 408-484 (137.3 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 97-116 (24 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery


Grandpa says NOPE and if talon makes the wise decision to switch, he comes in with stealth rocks(unless u have defog whih is common)

Just for the lols :

252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 48-57 (11.8 - 14.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Bear in mid this is he 180 atk from deo-A

Talonflame's got no chance against a rock type with decent defense, so it's pretty much guaranteed to switch out. Which means Tyranitar is probably a better Talonflame counter:

252 Atk Tyranitar (with its own Atk stat) Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame (switching out): 179-210 (60.1 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, unless it has a Sitrus Berry

252 Atk Life Orb Tyranitar (with its own Atk stat) Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame (switching out): 232-274 (78.2 - 92.0%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, even if it has a Sitrus Berry

252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar (with its own Atk stat) Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame (switching out): 228-268 (76.6 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, even if it has a Sitrus Berry

252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar (inherited Atk from Deoxys-Attack) Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame (switching out): 318-374 (106.9 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[SuperSkylake]

I actually agree that Shuckle should probably be suspected. No matter how passive it is, you can't kill the thing. A +2 dragonite outrage (default base attack) can't even 2hko it through leftovers recovery! (I should have saved more replays but this is the only one I have)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/giftsofthegods-450025426


Plus it's only hit super effectively by rock, steel and water-type hits. With contrary shell smash it becomes even tougher to take down to the point that the only common way to destroy it is with critical hit, status and/or phasing. The less-common way to halfway disable the thing is with trick, but even then it's so bulky it's guaranteed to set up sticky web and toxic a few people before it goes down. I don't run shell smash myself, since I have to give up something else I like, but I've seen what it can do. The set I use is:

Impenetrable (Shuckle) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sticky Web
- Rest
- Knock Off
- Toxic

Knock off is great, and I haven't seen it mentioned at least in the last 30 posts. I should actually replace sticky with contrary since nothing can ohko shuckle fro full health. Taking out leftovers recovery is really something that offensive mons love.
OK, so you can shut it down with taunt or trick, you can stop it from statusing you or knocking off your items with sub. The real problem with Shuckle is that it's so centralizing and there's like 0 opportunity cost in using it over some other bulky mon. A team with a shuckle will outperform the same team with another mon in its place sinmply because Shuckle can outlast so many things, spread status, or put enormous pressure on hazard removers. I think the only defogger that can deal with Shuckle is Scizor and the only spinner is Excadrill and both of those aren't really that common in this meta. I guess a sand-rush Drill gifted with 180 atk might be useful though (hmm).
In short, Shuckle is great for pressuring almost all defensive mons and paving the way for a sweep from one of your offensive mons. It fits great even on HO teams because of this. Indeed, Shuckle's bulk is so good that you don't really have to worry about losing momentum since Shuckle's almost guaranteed to stick around for a long, long time.

 

[vegeta00007]

I also like the fact that so many unloved (or unappreciated ) pokemon like electrode gets huge buffs
Has 140 base speed
With deo-A spa of 180 (huge change from its initial 80) can lead to awesome volt turning with a u-turning beedril in def slot cos it gets 1 shot any time it gets hit
Nice synergy there, and deo-A can occupy the spDef slot as well
End result : god like atk , spa and spe

Im no expert but this is a very VERY creative and unrestricting metathat has multiple good teams, better than the landerous-therian spam ou or the darkrai spam uber

 

[Niadev]

For those with Shuckle breaking issues that have some sort of grudge against Taunt (what did it do to you, steal yo girl/boyfriend or something), you all need a little dose of Rampardos Head Smash in your life

Calc (shuckle has 150 HP from Gira teams here)

LO:
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Rampardos Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 322-382 (64 - 75.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Rampardos Head Smash vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 218-257 (43.3 - 51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Non damage boosting item:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 248-294 (49.3 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Head Smash vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 168-198 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
k not the greatest chance but w/e

And before you go "but shell smash", Rampy also gets SD and Shuckle has 0 offensive presence unless it runs a horrible offensive version, at which point it's very easy to break and a non-problem. Rampy is then free to SD and tear Shuckle a brand new defecation hole with an excellent Shuckle meat bust of Showdown's logo for giggles. I won't lie though, it's bulky as hell and annoying to boot :V

SubSeed Serp is also a great answer to it that doesn't have to run Taunt, Infestation is literally weaker than Magikarp's Tackle, leaving Serp free to Sub and Leech Seed anti stall Shuckle, all the while boosting with Leaf Storm. Serp doesn't even need to be with Deo-A either, due to how it can outstall with Leech Seed and Substitute, which isn't affected by Rest. BandTar with Stone Edge can also 2HKO after rocks, and that's without an attack boost from a God (though Contrary Smash is an issue). Finally of the alternate methods I'll list for breaking Shuckle, phazing it around with rocks up is an easy way to wear down Shuckle. And that's probably not all of the ways to beat it.

As you can probably tell, I disagree with a Shuckle ban (a test, maybe, but I'd wait until more the middle of the month for that, so the meta can adapt to Shuckle and people can get a better grasp of the meta). Shuckle is honestly just a stallmon at it's core. And it's not even like Mega Sab, who is resistant to a lot of stallbreakers on account of Magic Bounce - It's completely prone to Taunt without Mental Herb (and then you're extremely prone to being worn down) and a plethora of stallbreaking methods. If you want to not lose to Shuckle, adapt to it and run Taunt or one of the large number of Pokemon that can break it. It's not even that centralising either, most good teams will run a sort of Stallbreaker for Stall teams like Gira-A, Lugia or Deo-D(?). Honestly, there are much more pressing issues in the meta imo, such as Talonflame, Deo-A as a God, maybe Linoone and possibly MSab (who is far more annoying to break with an HP boost thanks to Magic Bounce and great bulk, with the former making Taunt an ineffective method of defeating it).

Finally, we're only 3 days into ladder month lmao, give the meta time to adapt a bit. If Shuck is still considered borked after the meta has had time to adapt, then I'd agree with a test.

PS: not even shitting about that Infestation being weaker than Magikarp's Tackle btw

Proof

0 SpA Shuckle Sticky Web vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 6-7 (1.5 - 1.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Magikarp Tackle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 8-10 (2 - 2.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Note that the damage calc lacks an inbuilt Infestation move, so Sticky Web has 20 base power like Infestation does