Well at the very least you'll be expecting more competent players as the rounds proceed, so even if it overcentralized or adapted it does show what the said mon is capable of in the right hands or played better than the initial days of suspect ladders. That said the tournament is still first and foremost a competition whether something is broken or not comes secondary or is auxiliary as the point is still who wins, not who gets banned or unbanned.
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Gods Among Us, OU Edition - Discussion Thread
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Genesect: I am really looking forward to using this, even though I think its would be silly to have it in OU, just because of its overall great stats, almost uncounterable movepool and the way it just comletely takes the momentum away from the other player, once its sent out. It forces like almost every Pokemon in OU out, in fear of a supereffective hit, with a potential 1.5 Boost, and will most likely U-Turn Out on what ever comes in. It pressures every playstyle way to much to be healthy, even though it should be really cool using that thing for a few games.
(Gonna edit my opinion on the other mons onto this later)
I love the Idea of this Tournament, and would also like it being BO3 so I can bring and see some more fun stuff.
(Gonna edit my opinion on the other mons onto this later)
I love the Idea of this Tournament, and would also like it being BO3 so I can bring and see some more fun stuff.
Can someone please explain to me what BO1/BO3 means? I feel like a total noob rn, but I've never heard that.
You're probably right, however, I personally feel that that isn't a major problem, as it is only for a minitour, rather rhan, for example, the tier as a whole. I feel the idea is that this will provide a means of determining if these mons are even justifiable for a suspect. It is a harmless format to examine them in OU, if there ever was one.
Something I forgot to touch on with Genesect is the rise of Magnezone. Magnezone was not nearly as popular as it is now in the early XY meta, but now Scarf Magnezone in particular can serve as a viable revenge killer that only ScarfSect can run away from. Even against ScarfSect, Mag can at least shift the momentum in its team's favor rather than Genesect's. Resisting all its moves other than Flamethrower and Blaze Kick also helps.
It means best of 1 or 3.
Thanks.
Anyways, I think this is an excellent point. Mag was basically at its lowest point, in terms of usage, when gene was last a thing, iirc. I also feel that it will make beedrill even less common, as well as scizor, as it is basically a combination of the two, on roids. Also, scizor will suffer even more, as mag eats it alive even worse than gene. Fortunately for mag, blaze kick at least is quite obvious, as it has to be shiny to know it (it's an event move). It also gets shift gears, so if anything it's more threatening to magnezone then mag is to it (if it gets the download boost, at least). Scarf would basically be forced to only use u-turn if you see mag, which would be helpful in way for easing prediction (except it creates mementum, however at least it'd deter gene from using coverage moves at all, Especially to KO its opponents. Yeah, that could be a really interesting meta shift that could change things for gene and increase the opportunity cost of running it.
Well, then on the flip side it always could be that that is just what these threats do. I mean we banned them for a reason. They require a lot of preparation and wrap the meta around their fingers, or at least did.
I guess we'll have to wait and see though.
Granted its a small sample size (3 battles) but the meta doesnt look that different with gen than without, magnezone and magneton both got alot more usage latias/latios and other psychic types dipped in usage and everyone was using heatran and full stall is still shit
Initial thoughts on genesect after getting bopped in tournament:
It is still a terror to deal with. You have no clue if its running scarf or banded. Heck even expert belt lures are possible.
All of which have different checks and counters both of which are few.
You have to fear: U-turn, flamethrower, icebeam, bug buzz, iron head, extremespeed, thunderbolt
There are counters to different sets but without knowing the set its is extremely hard to play around (similar to greninja) Also it can spam u-turn with ease.
I'm seeing a lot of dugtrio genesect cores to trap its few counters in heatran, chandelure, and volcarona.
One great notable counter to genesect is alomomola who only fears the rare thunderbolt and can regenerate off u-turn damage.
It is still a terror to deal with. You have no clue if its running scarf or banded. Heck even expert belt lures are possible.
All of which have different checks and counters both of which are few.
You have to fear: U-turn, flamethrower, icebeam, bug buzz, iron head, extremespeed, thunderbolt
There are counters to different sets but without knowing the set its is extremely hard to play around (similar to greninja) Also it can spam u-turn with ease.
I'm seeing a lot of dugtrio genesect cores to trap its few counters in heatran, chandelure, and volcarona.
One great notable counter to genesect is alomomola who only fears the rare thunderbolt and can regenerate off u-turn damage.
I used sash lead genesect+zard x HO teams and zard x just kinda wrecked lol. Zard can also wall most of the scarf sets but I can see +1 cb espeed doing a lot ofc. It's really hard to handle zard x with genesect on the same team cuz it puts a lot of pressure on Heatran. Heatran isn't exactly hard to wear down either.
Gene is just waaaay to good at applying pressure since its switch ins generally suck and hate getting hit with u-turn. I wasn't even using uTurn and it's still hard to handle.
Gene is just waaaay to good at applying pressure since its switch ins generally suck and hate getting hit with u-turn. I wasn't even using uTurn and it's still hard to handle.
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I kind of like having Genesect in OU. However, it is difficult to counter though and nearly always gets momentum. In fact, it seems to have no counters at all. This is primarily Download's fault. Even based lord Porygon2 can be 2HKOed by +1 Band Iron Head or +1 Life Orb Flash Cannon with a mixed defensive spread.
Despite being having no counters and being somewhat difficult to switch into, it's not too bad in practice. TankChomp + Sp. Def Excadrill fares really well against it as does the Double Dragon core of Mega Charizard X + Offensive Chomp. Scarf Magnets revenge kill it with ease, though Gene would be smart to just spam U-turn if it finds itself against a Mag team.
I want Gene to return, but it just seems like too much. It was fun seeing it in OU again in this tournament though.
Despite being having no counters and being somewhat difficult to switch into, it's not too bad in practice. TankChomp + Sp. Def Excadrill fares really well against it as does the Double Dragon core of Mega Charizard X + Offensive Chomp. Scarf Magnets revenge kill it with ease, though Gene would be smart to just spam U-turn if it finds itself against a Mag team.
I want Gene to return, but it just seems like too much. It was fun seeing it in OU again in this tournament though.
I hope that deo s/deo d will be unbanned for one of these rounds, it will be really cool to see the effect they have on the metagame and imo I think it will be a god thing with variety from hippo balanced
Read the OP. They're unbanned in Round 6.
I'd love to have Deo-D back because DeoSharp is awesome, but it and Deo-S are just way too consistent at hazard setting even with viable Magic Bouncers. I see a rise in Mega Sableye usage in Balance and Stall teams, which in turn will cause the Deos to run Skill Swap to get past it.
Deo-D and Deo-s will have an incredibly hard time hazard setting thanks to Mega Sableye. With the new magic bounce additions, it will be interesting to see if they are viable.
they each get access to skill swap and for Deo-D, which has a free move slot, mega sableye should not be an issue
At the very least forcing deoxysD to use skill swap makes it slightly worse before it would run:
Spikes/SR then 2 of: Nightshade, taunt, Psychoboost, Recover, Toxic, Thunderwave, or magic coat
By being forced to run skill swap it loses one of it utility move slots. Not sure if this makes it broken or not but it probably is worse this meta. In addition no aegis spin blocking and no mega mawile, greninja or landorous to abuse the hazards
Spikes/SR then 2 of: Nightshade, taunt, Psychoboost, Recover, Toxic, Thunderwave, or magic coat
By being forced to run skill swap it loses one of it utility move slots. Not sure if this makes it broken or not but it probably is worse this meta. In addition no aegis spin blocking and no mega mawile, greninja or landorous to abuse the hazards
Sableye still has prankster Taunt, if skill swap becomes an issue.
He was talking about mega sableye whose moveset don't carry taunt, since it becomes deadweight once he MEVOs being slower than everything he'd like to taunt.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Was kinda bored and after watching some replays I noticed there were a lot of Charizards (not that weird because it is one of the best offensive gene checks) so I counted the usage of a few pokemon I saw a lot.
In all games, 53 different teams were used. The most used pokemon were:
Genesect - 42 times (did someone call Aegislash centralizing?)
Charizard - 20 times
Garchomp - 18 times
Hippowdon - 13 times
Latios, Excadrill - 11 times
Kinda gives a representation on the kind of teams that were mainly used. Defensive teams are not that great with Genesect taking all momentum away from defensive cores. Most teams were offensive [for example Manectric got 14% usage]
I don't know if the matches I have seen gives a good representation whether or not Genesect is retest-worthy. Even though many people prepared a lot for Genesect, (see usage of hippow, tran, zards) it still did a lot of work every game. Just when looking at the replays, I honestly don't think we can tell if Genesect is too much for the tier or not, because 75% of the teams were (bulky) offensive.
In all games, 53 different teams were used. The most used pokemon were:
Genesect - 42 times (did someone call Aegislash centralizing?)
Charizard - 20 times
Garchomp - 18 times
Hippowdon - 13 times
Latios, Excadrill - 11 times
Kinda gives a representation on the kind of teams that were mainly used. Defensive teams are not that great with Genesect taking all momentum away from defensive cores. Most teams were offensive [for example Manectric got 14% usage]
I don't know if the matches I have seen gives a good representation whether or not Genesect is retest-worthy. Even though many people prepared a lot for Genesect, (see usage of hippow, tran, zards) it still did a lot of work every game. Just when looking at the replays, I honestly don't think we can tell if Genesect is too much for the tier or not, because 75% of the teams were (bulky) offensive.
I think most people wanted to try out genesect tbh so id how accurate that is, we all wanted to use gene and see if its still the terrifying bug we know
Ragnarock
Banned deucer.
Gonna post my nerdy thoughts
Genesect
I feel like the meta would consist more on VoltTurning and hazard sacking w/ this thing around. It is a great clefable check w/ Choice Band however can't switch-in freely to twave or a flamethrower (which you don't see anymore, interesting). More Fire types are gonna be used, mainly looking at Heatran, also mening bulky waters like Azumarill and Keldeo now have field days in genesect meta. considering on how fast the meta is currently, scarf genesect STILL puts in work and does what it does best, fast uturnign and revenge killing. I will as a downloaded +1 atk CB STABs + Xspeed is pretty fuckin lethal.
Mega Mawile
I feel like unbanning this would just make the metagame more sucker punch weak again like it was during XY. The only bisharp checks i'm seeing in today's meta are either Keldeos or Hippos and both can get worn down pretty quickly. What I love about Mawile is it's ability to wallbreak and stallbreak with ease. What I don't like about it is for this exact reason as well, you can't switch-in vs it and it's kind of 50/50s every turn like w/ bisharp, except more powerful. It'll just make ORAS OU more offensively based than it already is. Big Dick Plays all day pretty much.
Blaziken
Lol, no
Greninja
Tbh with this coming back, things like torn-t and weavile might downgrade in useage because greninja fulfils the same rules as they both do, Hit Hard and Run. It's a great mix atker and got extremely buffed with the Gunk Shot and Low Kick tutor moves which we thought would change anything but it completely dominanted and was later deemed the mon "no switch-ins" which was a pretty big deal before it's ban.
Reshiram
This will be interesting. You never see this used in Ubers, at least I don't. It has a decent movepool and we can always use the scizor checks. I just feel like it'll just get outclassed by many other dragons in ORAS OU anyway, as it might have the same typing as a Zard-X but yet no access to Dragon Dance. It could be a decent scarfer or a wallbreaker w/ Specs or LO. I see shit like Azumaril being used a bit more than it already is w/ this running around.
Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S
I mean... It's just more Hyper Offense w/ Bisharp.... That's fun....
Genesect
I feel like the meta would consist more on VoltTurning and hazard sacking w/ this thing around. It is a great clefable check w/ Choice Band however can't switch-in freely to twave or a flamethrower (which you don't see anymore, interesting). More Fire types are gonna be used, mainly looking at Heatran, also mening bulky waters like Azumarill and Keldeo now have field days in genesect meta. considering on how fast the meta is currently, scarf genesect STILL puts in work and does what it does best, fast uturnign and revenge killing. I will as a downloaded +1 atk CB STABs + Xspeed is pretty fuckin lethal.
Mega Mawile
I feel like unbanning this would just make the metagame more sucker punch weak again like it was during XY. The only bisharp checks i'm seeing in today's meta are either Keldeos or Hippos and both can get worn down pretty quickly. What I love about Mawile is it's ability to wallbreak and stallbreak with ease. What I don't like about it is for this exact reason as well, you can't switch-in vs it and it's kind of 50/50s every turn like w/ bisharp, except more powerful. It'll just make ORAS OU more offensively based than it already is. Big Dick Plays all day pretty much.
Blaziken
Lol, no
Greninja
Tbh with this coming back, things like torn-t and weavile might downgrade in useage because greninja fulfils the same rules as they both do, Hit Hard and Run. It's a great mix atker and got extremely buffed with the Gunk Shot and Low Kick tutor moves which we thought would change anything but it completely dominanted and was later deemed the mon "no switch-ins" which was a pretty big deal before it's ban.
Reshiram
This will be interesting. You never see this used in Ubers, at least I don't. It has a decent movepool and we can always use the scizor checks. I just feel like it'll just get outclassed by many other dragons in ORAS OU anyway, as it might have the same typing as a Zard-X but yet no access to Dragon Dance. It could be a decent scarfer or a wallbreaker w/ Specs or LO. I see shit like Azumaril being used a bit more than it already is w/ this running around.
Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S
I mean... It's just more Hyper Offense w/ Bisharp.... That's fun....
Well for myself the only one of interest right now seems to be Mega Mawile, considering how much the environment has changed since with many of its common team mates now gone (Deo+Aegis). That said I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned what really differentiates Mega Mawile from the rest of the choices in that first and foremost it is the only mega being retested. Every other mon is a non-mega so they can work in tandem with existing choices and do offer more flexibility in that respect, simply put they would be easier to splash without foregoing your current centerpiece.
This is actually a point for Mawile in so much that there is a much wider variety to chose from in terms of other megas, it also helps that since the unbanning of certain things (notably Aegis) a lot of other megas rose up in viability to really compete for that slot. This I feel is the biggest change in the environment since when it was banned, since it was by process of elimination the biggest power house mega at the time.
Not doubting that Mega Mawile is a great mon but there is something to be said in the environment changing in so much that there are now more megas that are a better fit for certain teams, I don't expect Mega Mawile to necessarily find itself in all teams after all. Aside that as I mentioned many of the mons that it worked in tandem with find themselves banned now so... I think I do have higher hopes for this lil fella.
This is actually a point for Mawile in so much that there is a much wider variety to chose from in terms of other megas, it also helps that since the unbanning of certain things (notably Aegis) a lot of other megas rose up in viability to really compete for that slot. This I feel is the biggest change in the environment since when it was banned, since it was by process of elimination the biggest power house mega at the time.
Not doubting that Mega Mawile is a great mon but there is something to be said in the environment changing in so much that there are now more megas that are a better fit for certain teams, I don't expect Mega Mawile to necessarily find itself in all teams after all. Aside that as I mentioned many of the mons that it worked in tandem with find themselves banned now so... I think I do have higher hopes for this lil fella.
Mega Mawile was banned after the Deos and Aegislash, so I don't think their absence really affects anything for it. No new checks have been introduced and it's still amazing Wallbreaker+sweeper combo with way to many switch-in opportunities to be healthy. I'd rather see Deo-D be unbanned because at least the DeoSharp era was a blast to play with fast games.
I do think Deo-D is broken, but it was the fun kind of broken.
I do think Deo-D is broken, but it was the fun kind of broken.
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Really big fan of the idea of retesting things that were banned during XY to see how they are now seeing as though Genesect was banned really early. After looking at all the replays of R1 and playing my own battle it looks like Genesect isnt coming back anytime soon since it has fucked movepool, good movepool and good typing. From the looks of all the pokemon the only things that look like they might realistically be retested are the deo's and mega mawile since they don't really overcentralise too much and they have significantly less splashability than the other things there. I think deo would be interesting to see because with lots of balance and fat things like hippo running around the old deosharp teams might not be as successful as they were. I also think that because mega mawile has less of an impact than some of the other stuff soley because of its mega status and now it faces competition since the mega pool is starting to get bigger leading to teams using other things that perform a similar role while fitting the team style better.
lmao blaziken finna eat the metas ass.
lmao blaziken finna eat the metas ass.
My problem with Deoxys forms is that it is always much harder to give credit to support based suspects as compared to offensive ones, the effects aren't immediately noticeable or as clear cut.
I mean that has always been the case with them since the prior gen, it takes time before their effects really come into play. They don't distort things immediately but rather gradually, so they tend to fly under the radar. This is my concern with these ones in particular.
I mean that has always been the case with them since the prior gen, it takes time before their effects really come into play. They don't distort things immediately but rather gradually, so they tend to fly under the radar. This is my concern with these ones in particular.
I think Aegislash's banning is really important for Deoxys since we actually have good, reliable spinners now with Starmie (especially), Excadrill and Tentacruel. Seeing that it's kind of difficult to get a spinblocker for all three (Jellicent, Gourgeist-XL and SpD Mega Sableye probably do the best jobs), DeoSharp may not be as threatening as before. We'll see in Round 5 though.
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