Gods and Followers

[Mq]

Lets promise to keep G&F alive and awesome.Lets hope it gets a permanent ladder!
Will miss G&F though (Ps main);_;

 

[Niadev]

Lets promise to keep G&F alive and awesome.Lets hope it gets a permanent ladder!
Will miss G&F though (Ps main);_;

I second this. G&F for permanent ladder 2k16! This is also pretty much the first OM I got involved in, and it's the only ladder where I got to top 100, so it's got a certain significance to me. Although that may also be because it's the only meta with Ubers allowed where Primal Groudon isn't on every single team like they'll get shot if they don't have it and GeoXern is no longer an omnipresent threat. TBH those two reasons (that's PDon and GeoXern) are why I don't play Ubers much anymore - Nowadays I only really play if I want to dumpster some low ladder Ash/Red teams with EKiller Arc, MegaMence and/or PDon if I'm bored. Or laugh when they forfeit at Team Preview :3

And one of these days I'll post my MegaMence team either in the RMT section or here. One of these days.

 

[Jajoken]

Small changes to rankings:

4★ -> 3★

Added to 1★

Added to 1★

I realized that since Shadow Tag Goth and Wob are allowed in the god slot, I should add them to the OP and viability. Their placement is subject to change, but for now they will remain in 1★ due to high competition for their type (Psychic) and high risk as gods for their role as semi-suicidal trappers.

New discussion points based on thread and council discussion:

4★ -> 5★

4★ -> 5★

4★ -> 5★

4★ -> 5★

4★ -> 5★

Now that Xerneas has dropped, 5★ is a bit sparse. These are the five gods I've seen most discussed for a raise, though you can also nominate your own. Also -- obviously not all of these are going to rise. We're probably looking at 1 or 2 at the most.

I've also updated the replays section -- keep posting them!

 

[Manchamp]

I second this. G&F for permanent ladder 2k16! This is also pretty much the first OM I got involved in, and it's the only ladder where I got to top 100, so it's got a certain significance to me. Although that may also be because it's the only meta with Ubers allowed where Primal Groudon isn't on every single team like they'll get shot if they don't have it and GeoXern is no longer an omnipresent threat. TBH those two reasons (that's PDon and GeoXern) are why I don't play Ubers much anymore - Nowadays I only really play if I want to dumpster some low ladder Ash/Red teams with EKiller Arc, MegaMence and/or PDon if I'm bored. Or laugh when they forfeit at Team Preview :3

And one of these days I'll post my MegaMence team either in the RMT section or here. One of these days.

The thing about it being a permanent ladder is that it gets taken for granted and isn't special anymore. People don't really play it. After STABmons became permanent it sees very little use. If you get on PS and check for people battling in that meta you probably won't find any. I enjoy the revolving door of metagames, because each one is new even if you have played it before. It's like ordering a bunch of pizzas and they don't come for a few hours. You forget what toppings you ordered and when they arrive each one is a fresh surprise. If that made sense, then that's just my thought on the issue.

As far as replays go for the thread, here's one I posted a long time ago but it's still one of my favorites because the team I'm using is unconventional and unique, and the ending is pretty crazy

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-312766001

Oh yeah and the gods involved are Gengar (me) v Yveltal

 

[Mq]

http://pastebin.com/UgpWiD04 UPDATED Giratina's stall description

 

[eviolite goomy]

If Zekrom, Lugia, Palkia and Kyogre are 5★ now then

4★ -> 5★
as well imo

I've made it to the top of the ladder several times now using only primal-Groudon teams.

As for replays, here's a very close game with pdon vs. latios
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-322959478

And here's an example of pdon vs. kyogre
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-321042294

pdon vs. mmence
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-321110474

pdon vs. genesect (note how this team deals with a well played balloon heatran)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-320824243

basically this mono-attacking fire punch resttalk bulk up spdef groudon just sets up on everything that doesn't pack earth power or drop dracos. I've been a bit hesitant to post about it on the forums because I absolutely don't want to face this set on the ladder myself. But there's only 3 days of G&F remaining, so why the hell not.

 

[Jajoken]

If Zekrom, Lugia, Palkia and Kyogre are 5★ now then

4★ -> 5★
as well imo

I've made it to the top of the ladder several times now using only primal-Groudon teams.

As for replays, here's a very close game with pdon vs. latios
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-322959478

And here's an example of pdon vs. kyogre
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-321042294

pdon vs. mmence
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-321110474

pdon vs. genesect (note how this team deals with a well played balloon heatran)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-320824243

basically this mono-attacking fire punch resttalk bulk up spdef groudon just sets up on everything that doesn't pack earth power or drop dracos. I've been a bit hesitant to post about it on the forums because I absolutely don't want to face this set on the ladder myself. But there's only 3 days of G&F remaining, so why the hell not.

Those weren't raises -- they were points of discussion. 5★ is still only comprised of Mence, Yveltal and Dialga.

 

[eviolite goomy]

Those weren't raises -- they were points of discussion. 5★ is still only comprised of Mence, Yveltal and Dialga.

Oh woops I sort of misread that part, my apologies :|
Im still nominating Groudon to 5★ though

 

[Ghoul King]

Fighting Arceus team replays. I'd originally been thinking I might collect more and do a more substantial post, but I lost interest in the team and haven't played it since the second replay, I think. Too erratic. Fun when it works, but erratic.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-321194595

In which I get a match against a fairly competent Rayquaza team. Rayquaza itself is a big problem, as is the abuse of Tailwind, but ultimately I win, and the rest of the team isn't really that much of a problem.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-321198305

Another match, this time against Lugia. Not so bad, actually.

---

I personally don't see Kyogre as a 5 star God. It's certainly superior to Water Arceus, being immensely threatening and a direct support to a Rain team, but Rain teams struggle when their weather is taken from them (Groudon, sort-of-Rayquaza) and Kyogre tends to fall a bit flat when compared against Palkia (Even before you consider that Palkia's access to Dragons considerably expands its team options), outside of the Rain support per se. Even Scarf Water Spout isn't clearly superior to Scarf Palkia, which is extremely difficult to prevent from grabbing a KO, particularly if you're not a Fairy team.

 

[Martin]

Wobb the basedlord gonna rek u

Wobb GodSquad

Ah shit fam... Im finna nut.. Im about to com... Ahhhhh!!! Im comming!!! lol (Wobbuffet) (M) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 12 HP / 248 Def / 248 SpD
Bold Nature
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Destiny Bond

Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pursuit
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm

Meloetta @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Relic Song
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Hoopa @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

Bronzong @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Reflect
- Light Screen

Seriously though Wobb isn't completely useless. Not good tho it means sacrificing a buttload if its your god, but its not as bottom-of-the-barrel bad as the other rank 1s. This team is pretty bad but w/e lol it shouldn't take me long to make a half-decent wobb squad 'cause bae.

edit ftr this is not me saying it is good enough for rank 2

 

[Niadev]

Small changes to rankings:

4★ -> 3★

Added to 1★

Added to 1★

I realized that since Shadow Tag Goth and Wob are allowed in the god slot, I should add them to the OP and viability. Their placement is subject to change, but for now they will remain in 1★ due to high competition for their type (Psychic) and high risk as gods for their role as semi-suicidal trappers.

New discussion points based on thread and council discussion:

4★ -> 5★

4★ -> 5★

4★ -> 5★

4★ -> 5★

4★ -> 5★

Now that Xerneas has dropped, 5★ is a bit sparse. These are the five gods I've seen most discussed for a raise, though you can also nominate your own. Also -- obviously not all of these are going to rise. We're probably looking at 1 or 2 at the most.

I've also updated the replays section -- keep posting them!

Looks like it's that time again. Time for my thoughts! Or you know, my commentary on these Gods with intermittent jokes about Dialga being in 5★

4★ -> 5★ -

Lugia

To be honest, I don't really see it, but I can see why it would be considerable. Being one of, if not, the bulkiest Pokemon in the game would seem like a selling point, but in reality, it just acts like a Cresselia with an added couple of weaknesses that are more common. Multiscale is nice, but with rocks being the thing most 6v6 competitive Pokemon seems to revolve around to the degree it makes Aegislash in OU seem reasonably centralising, it's basically mandatory to carry around a defogger. Fortunately, it has access to the type with one of the largest pools of Defoggers in existence, as well as access to Starmie. Psychic for a Fat God like Lugia is poor as it's mostly offensive - The only viable defensive choices you have Psychicly(?) are Cresselia, Slowbro and Slowking. Flying's better off, with Skarmory, Mandibuzz and DEBATEABLY Mantine (it doesn't get the Pink Blobs so it could act as a special defensive wall substitute if you're desperate), but it is still a mostly offensive typing (do note you get SkarmDos, a combo that's well known in Monotype iirc). Offensively, you're fantastic, but Lugia doesn't really fit on those kinds of teams. HOWEVER, Lugia CAN fit on Balance teams, the most viable playstyle for Flying in Monotype, for reference. As a stall Pokemon, Giratina-A is better as it's type actually has some nice options for stall, which is more than what Lugia can say - Gira gets MSable the stall enabler, who checks so much stuff it's not even funny, among others. Overall, if it's typing's choices better supported it's playstyle (stall or heavily defensive styles), I'd say go for it, but as it is, keep it 4★. That is, unless Gen 7 is the Stall Generation that adds 10 different viable flying stallmons and 15 more psychic fatmons (because Cress and the Slows wasn't enough already).

4★ -> 5★ -

Zekrom

I'm not sure it's quite 5★ worthy but Dialga is 5★ so it's not unfeasible if the standard is set that low (Dialga is really underwhelming to build around - I was stuck on a last slot not because I needed to fill a role, but because there wasn't really anything good for the last slot - and in practice, even if your team isn't that prepared, you can still beat it quite easily from my experience, although I've only fought a few). Zekrom is strong offensively, but it's not so overwhelming it matches with the likes of MegaMence or offensive Yveltal variants (although to be fair MegaMence is extraordinarily threatening, so I might just have really high standards). All of 5★ right now have both offensive and defensive capability. Zekrom... It's got the offensive part down to a T, but the defensive... It's got good Physical bulk, but not good enough to the point where it doesn't care about Ground, a mostly physical attacking type as a weakness like PDon, who I personally feel would be more deserving of 5★ if we didn't take types into account, does (btw, I did change my mind about PDon, it's far from 3★). I do want to note that it's STAB coverage is crazy good, allowing it to beat Skarmory, a feat not many Physical attackers can claim, with Bolt Strike, and smacking most of the tier for solid damage.

For team options, Electric has nice choices, such as MMane, Raikou, and Thundurus, the three main offensive electrics of OU, and Zapdos on top to Defog. The former three give VoltTurn support, with Thundurus crippling sweepers like Greninja, Darkrai, MLuc, Rayquaza, and non-Refresh MegaMence, Mega Manectric just being a complete nightmare for offensive playstyles in general, and Raikou being a specially bulky pivot with AV. If you want to gimmick it up, you can have Sticky Web support with Galvantula, but a) Flying teams like MegaMence typically don't care about it outside of maybe Scarf Kyurem-B, and b) it's a free +2 for Bisharp, who can be extraordinarily threatening at +2 with Sucker Punch and Knock Off - For reference, at +2, Bisharp has a 62% chance to OHKO Zekrom with Sucker Punch after rocks, and can potentially OHKO some relatively bulky Dialga variants, as long as Dialga doesn't run too much defensive investment, with Knock Off. Do note that Dialga can outspeed and OHKO Bisharp with Fire Blast as Sticky Webs still slows Bisharp, however. Dragon is nice, with things like Latios providing offensive Defog support, and Latias clericing with Healing Wish, which is nice for Zekrom if it gets Burned by a Sableye, along with Hydreigon to be more offensively dedicated than Latios, Dragonite to sweep with DDance Multiscale shenanigans, and Kyurem-Black, who really threatens stall thanks to it's solid damage and coverage. Garchomp can set rocks very easily. Overall, I can see it being in 5★ more than Lugia, so if it's bumped up I wouldn't mind - It's definitely better than Dialga overall IMO.

4★ -> 5★ -

Arceus-Normal (presumably)

This deserves to be 5★. It's sweeping capabilities are off the charts and has an expansive movepool meaning it doesn't just have to be an EKiller. It's stats are phenomenal, and EKiller is a nightmare to stop because it can power through a lot of it's checks, although it needs to give up crucial coverage to do so so it's not seen that often. It's bulk is excellent, giving it perhaps more setup opportunities than even MMence, as it can set up on special as well as physical. On top of that, it can run other sets, although other Arc forms can usually do better at these than Normal. It's team support is meh, however, but it's good enough to let it sweep. However, MMence CAN set up on it if it lacks Ice Beam, or at least semi-reliably check Arceus, Skarmory phazes it if it lacks Fire Blast, and Mega Sableye checks it VERY hard, so it's not a completely unstoppable nightmare with no real checks like it was with GeoXern or MRay. Speaking of teams, it gets some OK things, like Ditto, who RKs a lot of Pokemon and can potentially bring the sweep back on the opponent (this is especially true if it Impostors a sweeper like +2 Darkrai or heaven forbid +1 Rayquaza). It also gets the offensive nightmare that is MLop and the 2 Blobby Blobs of Fatty Fatness. Diggersby can be a nice wallbreaker/sweeper and Little Miss LearnsEveryMoveEver McSporesalot the Smeargle. Overall, it's one of those 'mons that does everything and can sweep a team that's unprepared very easily, as the 5★ description says one should and is perhaps the most deserving on the list. To be honest, though, it MAY need suspecting, but let's try not to ban everything remotely sweeperish. These Ubers were banned in the first place for their mostly offensive power.

4★ -> 5★ -

Palkia

Palkia, simply put, is a nightmare to switch in on, but basically every God except Deo-D/S is, so that's not saying much. However, what sets it above the others IMO is it's abnormally difficult to switch in on. It's viability skyrockets thanks to how PDon and Xerneas aren't anywhere near as rampant, which was what caused it to be D-rank in Ubers, like Kyogre. Now that it's no longer setup bait for Xern on it's Dragon STAB or just a chance for PDon to check it's choice sets, which were some of it's more dominant sets ciirc (do note non-Sp.Def PDon loses to non-choice sets like Lustrous and Life Orb and cannot switch in for all hell on dragon STAB attacks), it can actually DO something. Unlike Dialga, it's speed is actually usable as a God, and is one of the few Pokemon who can switch in on Kyogre's STAB moves in the rain. Unlike other Dragons, it gets a STAB move that doesn't kill it's special attack, and doesn't suck monkey nuts like Dragon Pulse, in Spacial Rend. Of course, it can still run Draco if it absolutely wants to break walls apart with Specs, but the point is it isn't necessary. Scarfia revenge kills most other dragons in the game, except for maybe Scarf Latios, and, in fact, just revenge kills in general.

Thanks to it's speed, it's Specs set is a very threatening wall breaker (being able to 2HKO MegaMence with HYDRO PUMP is one heck of a feat), as it's not speed tied with by half of the wall Dragon Gods like Dialga or Giratina. Life Orb/Lustrous Orb makes good use of it's quite good coverage and it's speed in one package. The big boon it has over other dragon Gods is it's speed, however. It has access to BoltBeam, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, and Earth Power, to threaten a lot of potential switch ins. Trick Room is kind of garbage in allowing Palkia to sweep - Dialga is better there. For team support, it has access to Rain teams, which are pains in the butt to beat defensively, thanks to it's water typing and Politoed (do note that you're likely going to have to run Timid Kingdra to outspeed +1 Jolly max speed MegaMence, which uses MegaPert as setup bait), and Dragon has a decent amount of good Pokemon. I've already mentioned them before in Zekrom's section so no point saying that again. Overall, I don't really side with either, but it's definitely more deserving than Lugia, Zekrom and Dialga, so I'll go with yes for 5★.

4★ -> 5★ -

Kyogre

I say definitely (I've wanted it long enough lol). On it's own, it's painfully difficult to outright beat, and if you don't prepare for it, you'll have a real bad time, as a 5★ should be - this thing wasn't the king of Ubers for 3 generations for no reason. However, what really pushes it to 5★ is it's ability to foster rain teams thanks to being a Pokemon with Drizzle that doesn't suck 50 year old bull horns like Politoed, who is dead weight outside of setting rain. From my experience Scarf Kyogre itself can solo unprepared teams if it's lead with, as Water Spout OHKOs basically anything that doesn't resist it at full power, and it can also 2HKO tons of Pokemon ON A RESISTED HIT. Like Palkia, it's no longer outclassed as a sweeper by GeoXern and it doesn't struggle against PDon as often, and that REALLY helps. Specs with Water Spout can only be switched in on by Sp.Def Gastro (tbh it kind of laughs at anything Kyogre has), Ludicolo, Jellicent (on anything but Thunder), Soul Dew Latis, Palkia, PDon (on anything BUT Ice Beam), Giratina, and maybe a FEW others - Do note that most of these are Gods or Water types, which goes to show it's not got the most sparse checks. And speaking of those rain teams, you can pretty much make Hyper Offense off of just Swift Swimmers like Kingdra, Megapert, Omastar, Kabutops, etc. and you can get some easy wins at somewhat lower points of the ladder, barring PDon. Heck, it's still threatening HIGH ladder. It's offensive and supportive prowess are what I think should put it at 5★, as many teams have a tendency to lose pretty hard to this titan of a whale. For example, MMence teams' only way to win vs these teams is to use MegaPert as setup bait for Mega Salamence and hope Kingdra isn't Timid OR have the MMence team carry Talonflame, which does tend to chunk a lot of Pokemon on these teams.

I will say that opposing weather threatens it, but every Pokemon has their weak spot (*insert joke about MRay here*) - MMence loses to faster Ice Beam and Prankster Status most of the time, so Kyurem-W teams and teams with a Thundurus on, Arceus loses to Mega Sableye, Dialga loses to Fightings, Lando-I and basically any ground team (assuming Shuca berry has already activated or it's not Shuca), and so on - If a Pokemon hasn't got a weak spot, it's suspect worthy. Look at MRay - It had so few weaknesses that it caused Smogon to revamp their whole darned tiering system for Ubers because it was too strong for Ubers, a tier that had previously never banned a single Pokemon to my knowledge.

That's just my take on it though, for once I didn't spend 3 hours grammar checking everything, so there's a 50% more of a chance I got something wrong than usual.

 

[Flamedood]

If Zekrom, Lugia, Palkia and Kyogre are 5★ now then

4★ -> 5★
as well imo

I've made it to the top of the ladder several times now using only primal-Groudon teams.

As for replays, here's a very close game with pdon vs. latios
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-322959478

And here's an example of pdon vs. kyogre
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-321042294

pdon vs. mmence
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-321110474

pdon vs. genesect (note how this team deals with a well played balloon heatran)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-320824243

basically this mono-attacking fire punch resttalk bulk up spdef groudon just sets up on everything that doesn't pack earth power or drop dracos. I've been a bit hesitant to post about it on the forums because I absolutely don't want to face this set on the ladder myself. But there's only 3 days of G&F remaining, so why the hell not.

I thought I was the only one that used resttalk Groudon! It's absolutely outstanding and is the best way to play Groudon in this format imo. It does literally set up on 80% of the game and recovery, invaluable in this meta for your god has come clutch so many times to secure wins. Many players will play aggressively to weaken Groudon, and he can often take out the most dangerous threats to your team. Resting on dracos is another way to set up on Latis and Hydreigons but only from full. Biggest threat is Heatran as mono firepunch can't even touch it. A well played Heatran really is the achilles heel of these Groudon teams and I've unfortunately been caught in 1v1 scenarios wishing I had earthquake

Edit: I've pretty much exclusively played with Groudon this month and although not as strong as it's resttalk set (imo) it's mixed rock polish set is deadly as well. I actually ran earthquake over precipice blades with rock polish, fire blast and dragon pulse. Precipice blades accuracy can be really damning and I've lost so many clutch games due to misses. Having your whole team cursed when your precipice blades misses the opposing Dialga really starts to cause a few grey hairs from stress. This meta game is extremely unkind to hax, with misses and crits making the curse mechanic unbalanced imo but that's a post for another time

 

[Jajoken]

Wobb the basedlord gonna rek u

Wobb GodSquad

Ah shit fam... Im finna nut.. Im about to com... Ahhhhh!!! Im comming!!! lol (Wobbuffet) (M) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 12 HP / 248 Def / 248 SpD
Bold Nature
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Destiny Bond

Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pursuit
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm

Meloetta @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Relic Song
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Hoopa @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

Bronzong @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Reflect
- Light Screen

Seriously though Wobb isn't completely useless. Not good tho it means sacrificing a buttload if its your god, but its not as bottom-of-the-barrel bad as the other rank 1s. This team is pretty bad but w/e lol it shouldn't take me long to make a half-decent wobb squad 'cause bae.

edit ftr this is not me saying it is good enough for rank 2

If this is in response to the order on the viability rankings, it's alphabetical: Wobb is at the bottom because of its name, not its viability.

Looks like it's that time again. Time for my thoughts! Or you know, my commentary on these Gods with intermittent jokes about Dialga being in 5★

4★ -> 5★ -

Lugia

To be honest, I don't really see it, but I can see why it would be considerable. Being one of, if not, the bulkiest Pokemon in the game would seem like a selling point, but in reality, it just acts like a Cresselia with an added couple of weaknesses that are more common. Multiscale is nice, but with rocks being the thing most 6v6 competitive Pokemon seems to revolve around to the degree it makes Aegislash in OU seem reasonably centralising, it's basically mandatory to carry around a defogger. Fortunately, it has access to the type with one of the largest pools of Defoggers in existence, as well as access to Starmie. Psychic for a Fat God like Lugia is poor as it's mostly offensive - The only viable defensive choices you have Psychicly(?) are Cresselia, Slowbro and Slowking. Flying's better off, with Skarmory, Mandibuzz and DEBATEABLY Mantine (it doesn't get the Pink Blobs so it could act as a special defensive wall substitute if you're desperate), but it is still a mostly offensive typing (do note you get SkarmDos, a combo that's well known in Monotype iirc). Offensively, you're fantastic, but Lugia doesn't really fit on those kinds of teams. HOWEVER, Lugia CAN fit on Balance teams, the most viable playstyle for Flying in Monotype, for reference. As a stall Pokemon, Giratina-A is better as it's type actually has some nice options for stall, which is more than what Lugia can say - Gira gets MSable the stall enabler, who checks so much stuff it's not even funny, among others. Overall, if it's typing's choices better supported it's playstyle (stall or heavily defensive styles), I'd say go for it, but as it is, keep it 4★. That is, unless Gen 7 is the Stall Generation that adds 10 different viable flying stallmons and 15 more psychic fatmons (because Cress and the Slows wasn't enough already).

4★ -> 5★ -

Zekrom

I'm not sure it's quite 5★ worthy but Dialga is 5★ so it's not unfeasible if the standard is set that low (Dialga is really underwhelming to build around - I was stuck on a last slot not because I needed to fill a role, but because there wasn't really anything good for the last slot - and in practice, even if your team isn't that prepared, you can still beat it quite easily from my experience, although I've only fought a few). Zekrom is strong offensively, but it's not so overwhelming it matches with the likes of MegaMence or offensive Yveltal variants (although to be fair MegaMence is extraordinarily threatening, so I might just have really high standards). All of 5★ right now have both offensive and defensive capability. Zekrom... It's got the offensive part down to a T, but the defensive... It's got good Physical bulk, but not good enough to the point where it doesn't care about Ground, a mostly physical attacking type as a weakness like PDon, who I personally feel would be more deserving of 5★ if we didn't take types into account, does (btw, I did change my mind about PDon, it's far from 3★). I do want to note that it's STAB coverage is crazy good, allowing it to beat Skarmory, a feat not many Physical attackers can claim, with Bolt Strike, and smacking most of the tier for solid damage.

For team options, Electric has nice choices, such as MMane, Raikou, and Thundurus, the three main offensive electrics of OU, and Zapdos on top to Defog. The former three give VoltTurn support, with Thundurus crippling sweepers like Greninja, Darkrai, MLuc, Rayquaza, and non-Refresh MegaMence, Mega Manectric just being a complete nightmare for offensive playstyles in general, and Raikou being a specially bulky pivot with AV. If you want to gimmick it up, you can have Sticky Web support with Galvantula, but a) Flying teams like MegaMence typically don't care about it outside of maybe Scarf Kyurem-B, and b) it's a free +2 for Bisharp, who can be extraordinarily threatening at +2 with Sucker Punch and Knock Off - For reference, at +2, Bisharp has a 62% chance to OHKO Zekrom with Sucker Punch after rocks, and can potentially OHKO some relatively bulky Dialga variants, as long as Dialga doesn't run too much defensive investment, with Knock Off. Do note that Dialga can outspeed and OHKO Bisharp with Fire Blast as Sticky Webs still slows Bisharp, however. Dragon is nice, with things like Latios providing offensive Defog support, and Latias clericing with Healing Wish, which is nice for Zekrom if it gets Burned by a Sableye, along with Hydreigon to be more offensively dedicated than Latios, Dragonite to sweep with DDance Multiscale shenanigans, and Kyurem-Black, who really threatens stall thanks to it's solid damage and coverage. Garchomp can set rocks very easily. Overall, I can see it being in 5★ more than Lugia, so if it's bumped up I wouldn't mind - It's definitely better than Dialga overall IMO.

4★ -> 5★ -

Arceus-Normal (presumably)

This deserves to be 5★. It's sweeping capabilities are off the charts and has an expansive movepool meaning it doesn't just have to be an EKiller. It's stats are phenomenal, and EKiller is a nightmare to stop because it can power through a lot of it's checks, although it needs to give up crucial coverage to do so so it's not seen that often. It's bulk is excellent, giving it perhaps more setup opportunities than even MMence, as it can set up on special as well as physical. On top of that, it can run other sets, although other Arc forms can usually do better at these than Normal. It's team support is meh, however, but it's good enough to let it sweep. However, MMence CAN set up on it if it lacks Ice Beam, or at least semi-reliably check Arceus, Skarmory phazes it if it lacks Fire Blast, and Mega Sableye checks it VERY hard, so it's not a completely unstoppable nightmare with no real checks like it was with GeoXern or MRay. Speaking of teams, it gets some OK things, like Ditto, who RKs a lot of Pokemon and can potentially bring the sweep back on the opponent (this is especially true if it Impostors a sweeper like +2 Darkrai or heaven forbid +1 Rayquaza). It also gets the offensive nightmare that is MLop and the 2 Blobby Blobs of Fatty Fatness. Diggersby can be a nice wallbreaker/sweeper and Little Miss LearnsEveryMoveEver McSporesalot the Smeargle. Overall, it's one of those 'mons that does everything and can sweep a team that's unprepared very easily, as the 5★ description says one should and is perhaps the most deserving on the list. To be honest, though, it MAY need suspecting, but let's try not to ban everything remotely sweeperish. These Ubers were banned in the first place for their mostly offensive power.

4★ -> 5★ -

Palkia

Palkia, simply put, is a nightmare to switch in on, but basically every God except Deo-D/S is, so that's not saying much. However, what sets it above the others IMO is it's abnormally difficult to switch in on. It's viability skyrockets thanks to how PDon and Xerneas aren't anywhere near as common, which was what caused it to be D-rank in Ubers, like Kyogre. Now that it's no longer setup bait for Xern or just a free switch for PDon, it can actually DO something. Unlike Dialga, it's speed is actually usable as a God, and is one of the few Pokemon who can switch in on Kyogre's STAB moves in the rain. Unlike other Dragons, it gets a STAB move that doesn't kill it's special attack, and doesn't suck monkey nuts like Dragon Pulse, in Spacial Rend. Of course, it can still run Draco if it absolutely wants to break walls apart with Specs, but the point is it isn't necessary. Scarfia revenge kills most other dragons in the game, except for maybe Scarf Latios, and, in fact, just revenge kills in general.

Thanks to it's speed, it's Specs set is a very threatening wall breaker (being able to 2HKO MegaMence with HYDRO PUMP is one heck of a feat), as it's not speed tied with by half of the wall Dragon Gods like Dialga or Giratina. Life Orb/Lustrous Orb makes good use of it's quite good coverage and it's speed in one package. The big boon it has over other dragon Gods is it's speed, however. It has access to BoltBeam, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, and Earth Power, to threaten a lot of potential switch ins. Trick Room is kind of garbage in allowing Palkia to sweep - Dialga is better there. For team support, it has access to Rain teams, which are pains in the butt to beat defensively, thanks to it's water typing and Politoed (do note that you're likely going to have to run Timid Kingdra to outspeed +1 Jolly max speed MegaMence, which uses MegaPert as setup bait), and Dragon has a decent amount of good Pokemon. I've already mentioned them before in Zekrom's section so no point saying that again. Overall, I don't really side with either, but it's definitely more deserving than Lugia, Zekrom and Dialga, so I'll go with yes for 5★.

4★ -> 5★ -

Kyogre

I say definitely (I've wanted it long enough lol). On it's own, it's painfully difficult to outright beat, and if you don't prepare for it, you'll have a real bad time, as a 5★ should be - this thing wasn't the king of Ubers for 3 generations for no reason. However, what really pushes it to 5★ is it's ability to foster rain teams thanks to being a Pokemon with Drizzle that doesn't suck 50 year old bull horns like Politoed, who is dead weight outside of setting rain. From my experience Scarf Kyogre itself can solo unprepared teams if it's lead with, as Water Spout OHKOs basically anything that doesn't resist it at full power, and it can also 2HKO tons of Pokemon ON A RESISTED HIT. Like Palkia, it's no longer outclassed as a sweeper by GeoXern and it doesn't struggle against PDon as often, and that REALLY helps. Specs with Water Spout can only be switched in on by Palkia and PDon. And speaking of those rain teams, you can pretty much make Hyper Offense off of just Swift Swimmers like Kingdra, Megapert, Omastar, Kabutops, etc. and you can get some easy wins at somewhat lower points of the ladder, barring PDon. Heck, it's still threatening HIGH ladder. It's offensive and supportive prowess are what I think should put it at 5★, as many teams have a tendency to lose pretty hard to this titan of a whale. For example, MMence teams' only way to win vs these teams is to use MegaPert as setup bait for Mega Salamence and hope Kingdra isn't Timid OR have the MMence team carry Talonflame, which does tend to chunk a lot of Pokemon on these teams.

I will say that opposing weather threatens it, but every Pokemon has their weak spot (*insert joke about MRay here*) - MMence loses to faster Ice Beam and Prankster Status most of the time, so Kyurem-W teams and teams with a Thundurus on, Arceus loses to Mega Sableye, Dialga loses to Fightings, Lando-I and basically any ground team (assuming Shuca berry has already activated or it's not Shuca), and so on - If a Pokemon hasn't got a weak spot, it's suspect worthy. Look at MRay - It had so few weaknesses that it caused Smogon to revamp their whole darned tiering system for Ubers because it was too strong for Ubers, a tier that had previously never banned a single Pokemon to my knowledge.

That's just my take on it though, for once I didn't spend 3 hours grammar checking everything, so there's a 50% more of a chance I got something wrong than usual.

Thanks for the detailed reply! Honestly, I'm starting to agree with you over Dialga. It was a really good theorymon god on the merit of its typing way back before this had a ladder, but in practice I just haven't seen it do as well as some of the other gods ranked lower than it. There was some contention over whether or not it should be ranked here in the first place, so if no one defends it I'm just dropping it to 4★ next rankings update. Still really good on its own merits and by merit of its typing, but "really good" isn't top tier.

Also, would anyone who's used BU + Resttalk Primal Groudon mind posting a team import? That's a really neat set for this format and it actually makes me reconsider my argument about Kyogre having the advantage against P-don teams: Recovery + Sp. Def negates my point about Kyogre wearing down P-don gradually due to lack of clerics. As the replay a few posts above shows, unless you pack Seismitoad...

252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 242-289 (59.9 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 128-151 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 192-227 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 255-301 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...the set just kind of blows Kyogre teams away.

 

[Flamedood]

If this is in response to the order on the viability rankings, it's alphabetical: Wobb is at the bottom because of its name, not its viability.

Thanks for the detailed reply! Honestly, I'm starting to agree with you over Dialga. It was a really good theorymon god on the merit of its typing way back before this had a ladder, but in practice I just haven't seen it do as well as some of the other gods ranked lower than it. There was some contention over whether or not it should be ranked here in the first place, so if no one defends it I'm just dropping it to 4★ next rankings update. Still really good on its own merits and by merit of its typing, but "really good" isn't top tier.

Also, would anyone who's used BU + Resttalk Primal Groudon mind posting a team import? That's a really neat set for this format and it actually makes me reconsider my argument about Kyogre having the advantage against P-don teams: Recovery + Sp. Def negates my point about Kyogre wearing down P-don gradually due to lack of clerics. As the replay a few posts above shows, unless you pack Seismitoad...

252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 242-289 (59.9 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 128-151 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 192-227 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 255-301 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...the set just kind of blows Kyogre teams away.

On mobile atm but will post an importable if no one beats me to it when I get to a computer.

Edit:

Resttalk Groudon

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Bulk Up
- Fire Punch
- Sleep Talk

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Toxic
- Scald
- Clear Smog

Hippowdon @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Stone Edge

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide

Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Icicle Spear
- Ice Shard
- Superpower

 

[Martin]

If this is in response to the order on the viability rankings, it's alphabetical: Wobb is at the bottom because of its name, not its viability.

Oh ik that, I just made rhat post for a bit of fun :)

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

If this is in response to the order on the viability rankings, it's alphabetical: Wobb is at the bottom because of its name, not its viability.

Thanks for the detailed reply! Honestly, I'm starting to agree with you over Dialga. It was a really good theorymon god on the merit of its typing way back before this had a ladder, but in practice I just haven't seen it do as well as some of the other gods ranked lower than it. There was some contention over whether or not it should be ranked here in the first place, so if no one defends it I'm just dropping it to 4★ next rankings update. Still really good on its own merits and by merit of its typing, but "really good" isn't top tier.

Also, would anyone who's used BU + Resttalk Primal Groudon mind posting a team import? That's a really neat set for this format and it actually makes me reconsider my argument about Kyogre having the advantage against P-don teams: Recovery + Sp. Def negates my point about Kyogre wearing down P-don gradually due to lack of clerics. As the replay a few posts above shows, unless you pack Seismitoad...

252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 242-289 (59.9 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 128-151 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 192-227 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 255-301 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...the set just kind of blows Kyogre teams away.

Politoed gets encore- I've used that+toxic to great affect. additionally, there is Kingdra, Manaphy, and Phazing.

On mobile atm but will post an importable if no one beats me to it when I get to a computer.

Edit:

Resttalk Groudon

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Bulk Up
- Fire Punch
- Sleep Talk

Edit after looking it over:
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 252-297 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 4 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy in Harsh Sunshine: 252-297 (73.9 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even if you switch in, you have it easily. Even one tail glow is enough to 3hko, so you don't actually need to risk a crit.

0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 140-168 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
gl with that

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 266-314 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
gl with that

252+ SpA Life Orb Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon on a critical hit: 427-503 (105.6 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
not that you'd use sniper, but if you need a counter



I'm really not seeing PDon as a counter. This may just be because I have yet to lose to one, or even have difficulty if they lack Gastrodon. Additionally, that set flat out loses to Heatran. I guess the Heatran wouldn't know that, though

 

[Niadev]

If this is in response to the order on the viability rankings, it's alphabetical: Wobb is at the bottom because of its name, not its viability.

Thanks for the detailed reply! Honestly, I'm starting to agree with you over Dialga. It was a really good theorymon god on the merit of its typing way back before this had a ladder, but in practice I just haven't seen it do as well as some of the other gods ranked lower than it. There was some contention over whether or not it should be ranked here in the first place, so if no one defends it I'm just dropping it to 4★ next rankings update. Still really good on its own merits and by merit of its typing, but "really good" isn't top tier.

Also, would anyone who's used BU + Resttalk Primal Groudon mind posting a team import? That's a really neat set for this format and it actually makes me reconsider my argument about Kyogre having the advantage against P-don teams: Recovery + Sp. Def negates my point about Kyogre wearing down P-don gradually due to lack of clerics. As the replay a few posts above shows, unless you pack Seismitoad...

252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 242-289 (59.9 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 128-151 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 192-227 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 80 HP / 4 Def Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 255-301 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...the set just kind of blows Kyogre teams away.

I've only ever built a PDon GaF team around Double Dance Primal Groudon, who can be a nightmare for both offense and defense, but I guess I can look into that set soon - it's interesting and it does seem to give non-POgre rain teams a hard time :). The only thing I can see threatening it really is water-ground like MegaPert and Gastro, along with Seismitoad, judging by the calcs you mentioned. And yeah, Dialga is a great Pokemon on it's own, but everything else about it in this meta, like team options in relation to it's seemingly intended role as a bulkier attacker/Trick Room Pokemon just don't line up, unfortunately. I've noticed Steel surprisingly doesn't really have many hard hitting, slow Pokemon to go on Trick Room teams - It's pretty much Escavalier and Magnezone on the steel side and Togekiss and Braviary on the flying side for Pokemon that, you know, actually DO damage and don't have Megas that completely eclipse it in power - and it's clerics consist of Latias and Salamence. Setting rocks with your God seems kind of dumb to me, especially when you have Skarmory, who can also set Spikes. Dialga's only real job that's not bad in this meta is to be an offensive tank, which, to be honest, Zekrom does better, thanks to better STAB coverage and the same defensive stats, although I will say Dialga has more special non-STAB coverage than Zekrom.

 

[Flamedood]

Politoed gets encore- I've used that+toxic to great affect. additionally, there is Kingdra, Manaphy, and Phazing.


Edit after looking it over:
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 252-297 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 4 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy in Harsh Sunshine: 252-297 (73.9 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even if you switch in, you have it easily. Even one tail glow is enough to 3hko, so you don't actually need to risk a crit.

0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 140-168 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
gl with that

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 266-314 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
gl with that

252+ SpA Life Orb Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon on a critical hit: 427-503 (105.6 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
not that you'd use sniper, but if you need a counter



I'm really not seeing PDon as a counter. This may just be because I have yet to lose to one, or even have difficulty if they lack Gastrodon. Additionally, that set flat out loses to Heatran. I guess the Heatran wouldn't know that, though

PDon doesn't outright 6-0 Rain teams although it does go close- the reason it is so devastating is because it can switch in on 90% of the team, change the weather and rest up if necessary. Kingdras rarely run sniper on rain teams but regardless, here are some calcs of team members which greatly ease PGroudon's time (remember we're talking about PGroudon not just as a mon, but as a God who has access to followers, which can greatly accentuate its sweeping role).

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 251-296 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 239-282 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 329-387 (77.2 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 202-238 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingdra: 159-187 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 153-180 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Wow a mon with 135 attack using a stab 100 bp move does a lot of damage, shock horror! The reason this is relevant is because the PGroudon player has the luxury of not only eliminating the rain, but easily switching in his own Hippowdon to set sand at any time afterwards. The prediction game is 1000x easier on the PGroudon players side due to its water immunity and ability to switch into any water setter with ease. For a Kyogre player to get the jump on resttalk PGroudon teams, they need both PKyogre as a solid and reliable check to PGroudon and a Politoed to enable their own sweep in order to outspeed mons such as Excadrill and Krookodile. The relative ease for PGroudon teams to pressure with Rocks is also relevant, as it only takes a tiny bit of chip damage and both Groudon and his followers can seriously pressure his counters with no real setup needed.

tldr: With the exception of Bulky Swampert (which doesn't have recovery), mons that outspeed and pressure PGroudon offensively are fragile and require their weather in play to pressure PGroudon's teammates and Mons that are bulkier and slower don't have the firepower to reliably take out PGroudon before it heals up and starts its rain (lol) of terror again.

 

[Ghoul King]

4★ -> 5★ - Palkia, simply put, is a nightmare to switch in on, but basically every God except Deo-D/S is, so that's not saying much. However, what sets it above the others IMO is it's abnormally difficult to switch in on. It's viability skyrockets thanks to how PDon and Xerneas aren't anywhere near as common, which was what caused it to be D-rank in Ubers, like Kyogre. Now that it's no longer setup bait for Xern or just a free switch for PDon, it can actually DO something. Unlike Dialga, it's speed is actually usable as a God, and is one of the few Pokemon who can switch in on Kyogre's STAB moves in the rain. Unlike other Dragons, it gets a STAB move that doesn't kill it's special attack, and doesn't suck monkey nuts like Dragon Pulse, in Spacial Rend. Of course, it can still run Draco if it absolutely wants to break walls apart with Specs, but the point is it isn't necessary. Scarfia revenge kills most other dragons in the game, except for maybe Scarf Latios, and, in fact, just revenge kills in general.

Thanks to it's speed, it's Specs set is a very threatening wall breaker (being able to 2HKO MegaMence with HYDRO PUMP is one heck of a feat), as it's not speed tied with by half of the wall Dragon Gods like Dialga or Giratina. Life Orb/Lustrous Orb makes good use of it's quite good coverage and it's speed in one package. The big boon it has over other dragon Gods is it's speed, however. It has access to BoltBeam, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, and Earth Power, to threaten a lot of potential switch ins. Trick Room is kind of garbage in allowing Palkia to sweep - Dialga is better there. For team support, it has access to Rain teams, which are pains in the butt to beat defensively, thanks to it's water typing and Politoed (do note that you're likely going to have to run Timid Kingdra to outspeed +1 Jolly max speed MegaMence, which uses MegaPert as setup bait), and Dragon has a decent amount of good Pokemon. I've already mentioned them before in Zekrom's section so no point saying that again. Overall, I don't really side with either, but it's definitely more deserving than Lugia, Zekrom and Dialga, so I'll go with yes for 5★.

I'm not sure why you consider Palkia a "free switch" for Primal Groudon.

252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 238-282 (59 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What, are all Primal Groudon Specially Defensive in Ubers? (Which wouldn't stop Specs or Life Orb Palkia anyway)

Palkia is a nightmare to get a switch into, and no, Primal Groudon isn't that switch.

4★ -> 5★ - I say definitely (I've wanted it long enough lol). On it's own, it's painfully difficult to outright beat, and if you don't prepare for it, you'll have a real bad time, as a 5★ should be - this thing wasn't the king of Ubers for 3 generations for no reason. However, what really pushes it to 5★ is it's ability to foster rain teams thanks to being a Pokemon with Drizzle that doesn't suck 50 year old bull horns like Politoed, who is dead weight outside of setting rain. From my experience Scarf Kyogre itself can solo unprepared teams if it's lead with, as Water Spout OHKOs basically anything that doesn't resist it at full power, and it can also 2HKO tons of Pokemon ON A RESISTED HIT. Like Palkia, it's no longer outclassed as a sweeper by GeoXern and it doesn't struggle against PDon as often, and that REALLY helps. Specs with Water Spout can only be switched in on by Palkia and PDon. And speaking of those rain teams, you can pretty much make Hyper Offense off of just Swift Swimmers like Kingdra, Megapert, Omastar, Kabutops, etc. and you can get some easy wins at somewhat lower points of the ladder, barring PDon. Heck, it's still threatening HIGH ladder. It's offensive and supportive prowess are what I think should put it at 5★, as many teams have a tendency to lose pretty hard to this titan of a whale. For example, MMence teams' only way to win vs these teams is to use MegaPert as setup bait for Mega Salamence and hope Kingdra isn't Timid OR have the MMence team carry Talonflame, which does tend to chunk a lot of Pokemon on these teams.

I will say that opposing weather threatens it, but every Pokemon has their weak spot (*insert joke about MRay here*) - MMence loses to faster Ice Beam and Prankster Status most of the time, so Kyurem-W teams and teams with a Thundurus on, Arceus loses to Mega Sableye, Dialga loses to Fightings, Lando-I and basically any ground team (assuming Shuca berry has already activated or it's not Shuca), and so on - If a Pokemon hasn't got a weak spot, it's suspect worthy. Look at MRay - It had so few weaknesses that it caused Smogon to revamp their whole darned tiering system for Ubers because it was too strong for Ubers, a tier that had previously never banned a single Pokemon to my knowledge.

I'm not sure why you're focusing on Gods as switch-ins onto Scarf Water Spout Kyogre. My go-to switchin against Kyogre is Specially Defensive Gastrodon, which laughs at anything Scarf Kyogre does and is a pain for Kyogre's team to switch in on completely safely, thanks to Scald's Burn chance. Jellicent can obviously laugh off non-Thunder hits (And Thunder does crap to Giratina, so Giratina teams have to be predicted for Kyogre to not lose momentum), Ludicolo requires zero defensive investment to avoid the 2HKO from literally everything Kyogre has, etc. Kyogre teams also have problems in general with stopping Talonflame, which is commonly found on several God teams. Counter-Scarves -such as Scarf Garchomp- are common and finding one that outspeeds Kyogre's meager base 90 isn't hard. Sure, Talonflame and Counterscarves are unlikely to switch in, but landing a KO and then being forced to switch is problematic, and Scarf Kyogre starts losing its luster if hazards get put up -each switch into Stealth Rock is 18.75 BP lost on Water Spout, and trying to Wish pass to Kyogre is problematic given that pretty much whatever is going to be aimed at Alomomola or Vaporeon is going to be quite effective against Kyogre too.

God-choice-wise, Soul Dew Latios takes less than 60% from Ice Beam with no defensive investment whatsoever, and that's as good as Scarf Kyogre gets against it. A bulky Soul Dew Latios could switch in on anything Kyogre does, repeatedly thanks to Roost. It's not like Kingdra can safely switch in, either -it's risking a Draco Meteor (Or perhaps Dragon Pulse) to the face if predicted. (Speaking of Kingdra, it's only reliably 2HKOed Thunder, out of Kyogre's options, if it's made zero defensive investment) Giratina takes less than 50% from Ice Beam if all it's done is max its HP -I'm not even talking Specially Defensive here. It, of course, takes less than that from Water Spout.

Not to say that Kyogre isn't threatening, but I think you're overlooking some of its flaws/overselling its sheer power a bit.

 

[Niadev]

I'm not sure why you consider Palkia a "free switch" for Primal Groudon.

252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 238-282 (59 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What, are all Primal Groudon Specially Defensive in Ubers? (Which wouldn't stop Specs or Life Orb Palkia anyway)

Palkia is a nightmare to get a switch into, and no, Primal Groudon isn't that switch.



I'm not sure why you're focusing on Gods as switch-ins onto Scarf Water Spout Kyogre. My go-to switchin against Kyogre is Specially Defensive Gastrodon, which laughs at anything Scarf Kyogre does and is a pain for Kyogre's team to switch in on completely safely, thanks to Scald's Burn chance. Jellicent can obviously laugh off non-Thunder hits (And Thunder does crap to Giratina, so Giratina teams have to be predicted for Kyogre to not lose momentum), Ludicolo requires zero defensive investment to avoid the 2HKO from literally everything Kyogre has, etc. Kyogre teams also have problems in general with stopping Talonflame, which is commonly found on several God teams. Counter-Scarves -such as Scarf Garchomp- are common and finding one that outspeeds Kyogre's meager base 90 isn't hard. Sure, Talonflame and Counterscarves are unlikely to switch in, but landing a KO and then being forced to switch is problematic, and Scarf Kyogre starts losing its luster if hazards get put up -each switch into Stealth Rock is 18.75 BP lost on Water Spout, and trying to Wish pass to Kyogre is problematic given that pretty much whatever is going to be aimed at Alomomola or Vaporeon is going to be quite effective against Kyogre too.

God-choice-wise, Soul Dew Latios takes less than 60% from Ice Beam with no defensive investment whatsoever, and that's as good as Scarf Kyogre gets against it. A bulky Soul Dew Latios could switch in on anything Kyogre does, repeatedly thanks to Roost. It's not like Kingdra can safely switch in, either -it's risking a Draco Meteor (Or perhaps Dragon Pulse) to the face if predicted. (Speaking of Kingdra, it's only reliably 2HKOed Thunder, out of Kyogre's options, if it's made zero defensive investment) Giratina takes less than 50% from Ice Beam if all it's done is max its HP -I'm not even talking Specially Defensive here. It, of course, takes less than that from Water Spout.

Not to say that Kyogre isn't threatening, but I think you're overlooking some of its flaws/overselling its sheer power a bit.

Perhaps I am. Kyogre, however, is only half it's benefits, because Rain is a demon of an offensive playstyle to beat - x2 speed means you have to be a pretty fast scarfer to outpace common rain sets, and priority is basically your only concern speed wise. The point I was attempting to get across is that it fits the point of 5 star - If you don't prepare for it, there's a huge chance you can lose to it. It's not unbeatable, sure, but on the hazards thing, remember it DOES get Origin Pulse as a backup, which hits pretty hard on it's own. I didn't notice I only mentioned Gods, though, so, that's a point. Soul Dew Lati, by the way, pretty much gobbles any non-SE - and as you pointed out, even the SE ones sometimes - special hit, so it's not unsurprising :P I guess Soul Dew Latios threatens rain a bit, but MegaPert with Ice Punch exists.

Oh yes, and by Palkia being a free switch for PDon, I meant Hydro Pump. And btw, according to the usage, most PDon run 200 spDef to live GeoXern's Focus Blast to check it, as most run the Primal Support set (or, if you go by the Calcuator's name, "Primal Supporst").

To the Edit button I go!

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

PDon doesn't outright 6-0 Rain teams although it does go close- the reason it is so devastating is because it can switch in on 90% of the team, change the weather and rest up if necessary. Kingdras rarely run sniper on rain teams but regardless, here are some calcs of team members which greatly ease PGroudon's time (remember we're talking about PGroudon not just as a mon, but as a God who has access to followers, which can greatly accentuate its sweeping role).

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 251-296 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 239-282 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 329-387 (77.2 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 202-238 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingdra: 159-187 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 153-180 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Wow a mon with 135 attack using a stab 100 bp move does a lot of damage, shock horror! The reason this is relevant is because the PGroudon player has the luxury of not only eliminating the rain, but easily switching in his own Hippowdon to set sand at any time afterwards. The prediction game is 1000x easier on the PGroudon players side due to its water immunity and ability to switch into any water setter with ease. For a Kyogre player to get the jump on resttalk PGroudon teams, they need both PKyogre as a solid and reliable check to PGroudon and a Politoed to enable their own sweep in order to outspeed mons such as Excadrill and Krookodile. The relative ease for PGroudon teams to pressure with Rocks is also relevant, as it only takes a tiny bit of chip damage and both Groudon and his followers can seriously pressure his counters with no real setup needed.

tldr: With the exception of Bulky Swampert (which doesn't have recovery), mons that outspeed and pressure PGroudon offensively are fragile and require their weather in play to pressure PGroudon's teammates and Mons that are bulkier and slower don't have the firepower to reliably take out PGroudon before it heals up and starts its rain (lol) of terror again.

Yeah, kingdra should never run sniper. I was just saying that rain was not limited to Manaphy/Keldeo for beating Groudon. The problem with switching, especially against Manaphy, is that manaphy can just play it safe- Ground teams have 0 grass resists and one ice resist, so Manaphy can just roll them over. Further, since hippodon dies to every attack Manaphy should ever run (except hp fire/maybe psychic), you have to sack someone, bring in hippo, and then sack someone else to bring in Excadrill. Excadrill, then, can be nuetered by gyarados, politoed, ludiculo- the list goes on. Similar counters exist for Krookodile such as keldeo, who notably ohkos or 2hko's anything an a ground team without an assault vest or water absorb anyway.
On the other hand, PKyogre is a pdon check, but its not reliable- 0 Atk Pdon can 2hko even max def POgre, while offensive PDon Ohko's offensive ogre after rocks. I'm not sure why you'd run it.

I'm not sure why you're focusing on Gods as switch-ins onto Scarf Water Spout Kyogre. My go-to switchin against Kyogre is Specially Defensive Gastrodon, which laughs at anything Scarf Kyogre does and is a pain for Kyogre's team to switch in on completely safely, thanks to Scald's Burn chance. Jellicent can obviously laugh off non-Thunder hits (And Thunder does crap to Giratina, so Giratina teams have to be predicted for Kyogre to not lose momentum), Ludicolo requires zero defensive investment to avoid the 2HKO from literally everything Kyogre has, etc. Kyogre teams also have problems in general with stopping Talonflame, which is commonly found on several God teams. Counter-Scarves -such as Scarf Garchomp- are common and finding one that outspeeds Kyogre's meager base 90 isn't hard. Sure, Talonflame and Counterscarves are unlikely to switch in, but landing a KO and then being forced to switch is problematic, and Scarf Kyogre starts losing its luster if hazards get put up -each switch into Stealth Rock is 18.75 BP lost on Water Spout, and trying to Wish pass to Kyogre is problematic given that pretty much whatever is going to be aimed at Alomomola or Vaporeon is going to be quite effective against Kyogre too.

God-choice-wise, Soul Dew Latios takes less than 60% from Ice Beam with no defensive investment whatsoever, and that's as good as Scarf Kyogre gets against it. A bulky Soul Dew Latios could switch in on anything Kyogre does, repeatedly thanks to Roost. It's not like Kingdra can safely switch in, either -it's risking a Draco Meteor (Or perhaps Dragon Pulse) to the face if predicted. (Speaking of Kingdra, it's only reliably 2HKOed Thunder, out of Kyogre's options, if it's made zero defensive investment) Giratina takes less than 50% from Ice Beam if all it's done is max its HP -I'm not even talking Specially Defensive here. It, of course, takes less than that from Water Spout.

Not to say that Kyogre isn't threatening, but I think you're overlooking some of its flaws/overselling its sheer power a bit.

Agreeing here, but I also think you are underselling Kyogre. First off, while its a terrible move to be locked into Kyogre can go and 252+ SpA Kyogre Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Assault Vest Gastrodon: 200-236 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. You could invest more, but even with max attack and assualt vest you only need 18.5% chip to 2hko.
Giratina is a Hardwall, Not much to say except that I agree, but do note that even max special defence giratina is almost a 3hko, so don't try to rest in front of kyogre.
Latios checks but can't switch in without investment/being Latias, so something still dies. AV lati/anything with special defense can be run even as a follower, though.

 

[Ghoul King]

Perhaps I am. Kyogre, however, is only half it's benefits, because Rain is a demon of an offensive playstyle to beat - x2 speed means you have to be a pretty fast scarfer to outpace common rain sets, and priority is basically your only concern speed wise. The point I was attempting to get across is that it fits the point of 5 star - If you don't prepare for it, there's a huge chance you can lose to it. It's not unbeatable, sure, but on the hazards thing, remember it DOES get Origin Pulse as a backup, which hits pretty hard on it's own. I didn't notice I only mentioned Gods, though, so, that's a point. Soul Dew Lati, by the way, pretty much gobbles any non-SE - and as you pointed out, even the SE ones sometimes - special hit, so it's not unsurprising :P I guess Soul Dew Latios threatens rain a bit, but MegaPert with Ice Punch exists.

Oh yes, and by Palkia being a free switch for PDon, I meant Hydro Pump. And btw, according to the usage, most PDon run 200 spDef to live GeoXern's Focus Blast to check it, as most run the Primal Support set (or, if you go by the Calcuator's name, "Primal Supporst").

To the Edit button I go!

Rain steamrolls most HO teams, yes, but my own experience on Gods and Followers is that the meta tends to lean more toward balance/semi-stall. (Not full stall, because I don't think any God can assemble all the best stall tools on one team) Against those, the somewhat lackluster statlines of most Rain abusers make it a lot easier to get something in that can tank hits and retaliate.

If your Scarf Kyogre is lobbing Origin Pulses because it's taken a couple of Stealth Rock hits, against a lot of teams one must wonder why you're using Scarf Kyogre at all at that point. Yeah, Kyogre isn't completely neutered, assuming it's running Origin Pulse as backup, but you're getting into the territory of leaving me wondering why you're not, say, Resttalk, or straight Calm Mind.

I'm not seeing why Palkia's default assumed move would be Hydro Pump. Xerneas and Steel types aside (Oh wait, Dialga takes more from Spacial Rend than Hydro Pump) the Ubers meta is slanted toward resisting Water/being weak to Dragon rather than the other way around, and Primal Groudon being such a problem makes Spacial Rend the obvious choice. Unless the enemy team has both Primal Groudon and a Xerneas that hasn't used up its Power Herb yet, I'd tend to think Palkia would prefer Spacial Rend for its greater Accuracy and tendency to hit harder against several targets.

Furthermore, Palkia has better base Speed than Primal Groudon and isn't OHKOed by any of its moves. (252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 276-325 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO. Okay fine Adamant has a tiny chance of OHKOing Palkia with Precipice Blades, assuming it high rolls and doesn't miss) If Groudon does switch into Hydro Pump, what we get is Palkia hits it with Spacial Rend, Groudon retaliates or sets up, and then either Palkia still outspeeds it and finishes it or Groudon used Rock Polish like a dumbass, goes first, doesn't OHKO, and is finished off by another Spacial Rend -end result being that Palkia beats Primal Groudon 1v1 even if Groudon switched into a Hydro Pump.

252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

Primal Support will be 2HKOed by Lustrous Orb Palkia the majority of the time, too.

Yeah, kingdra should never run sniper. I was just saying that rain was not limited to Manaphy/Keldeo for beating Groudon. The problem with switching, especially against Manaphy, is that manaphy can just play it safe- Ground teams have 0 grass resists and one ice resist, so Manaphy can just roll them over. Further, since hippodon dies to every attack Manaphy should ever run (except hp fire/maybe psychic), you have to sack someone, bring in hippo, and then sack someone else to bring in Excadrill. Excadrill, then, can be nuetered by gyarados, politoed, ludiculo- the list goes on. Similar counters exist for Krookodile such as keldeo, who notably ohkos or 2hko's anything an a ground team without an assault vest or water absorb anyway.
On the other hand, PKyogre is a pdon check, but its not reliable- 0 Atk Pdon can 2hko even max def POgre, while offensive PDon Ohko's offensive ogre after rocks. I'm not sure why you'd run it.

Actually, Manaphy can't OHKO Hippowdon outside of Rain (Which Hippowdon clears) without boosting. Now, obviously it prefers to boost or to attack, but Manaphy can't simply free set up on Hippowdon if it KOed something unboosted and Hippowdon revenges, as Hippowdon can Whirlwind it out.

252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 288-338 (68.5 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Primal Groudon can also tank Manaphy pretty easily -even at +3 it takes surprisingly little damage from Energy Ball, even with no investment.

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 223-263 (65.3 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

My own experience running Primal Groudon is that Manaphy is one of the least threatening members of the Rain team. I have a lot more trouble with Mega Swampert.

Agreeing here, but I also think you are underselling Kyogre. First off, while its a terrible move to be locked into Kyogre can go and 252+ SpA Kyogre Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Assault Vest Gastrodon: 200-236 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. You could invest more, but even with max attack and assualt vest you only need 18.5% chip to 2hko.
Giratina is a Hardwall, Not much to say except that I agree, but do note that even max special defence giratina is almost a 3hko, so don't try to rest in front of kyogre.
Latios checks but can't switch in without investment/being Latias, so something still dies. AV lati/anything with special defense can be run even as a follower, though.

If your Gastrodon is running Assault Vest, you're losing. You need Recover for it to do its job.

If Kyogre could OHKO Gastrodon with Hidden Power Grass, I'd think you'd have more of a point, but in practice what'll happen is that you predict Gastrodon, it switches in and takes an irritating (But non-lethal) amount of damage, and then Primal Groudon comes in and shrugs off Hidden Power Grass -or you switched in something else, of which only Mega Swampert and Kingdra, out of Rain abusers, comes close to being able to beat Primal Groudon 1v1. Gastrodon, meanwhile, is still alive, and can probably switch in on, say, Politoed freely, or can win the prediction on Kyogre later, to then Recover, and now the value of surprise is gone. Meanwhile Kyogre has to give up something it desperately wants, whether it's Thunder, Ice Beam, Water Spout (Ha), or Back-Up Water Move, weakening Kyogre's ability to deal with various other Pokemon -all to improve its matchup against basically one member of one God's team, and not even by that much.

... and anyway Toxic is probably the better "surprise!" move, seeing as how Primal Groudon has no cleric of any kind and Excadrill and Nidoking are its only viable followers that ignore Toxic, while Toxic is useful against other teams too. (eg Palkia)

 

[Niadev]

Rain steamrolls most HO teams, yes, but my own experience on Gods and Followers is that the meta tends to lean more toward balance/semi-stall. (Not full stall, because I don't think any God can assemble all the best stall tools on one team) Against those, the somewhat lackluster statlines of most Rain abusers make it a lot easier to get something in that can tank hits and retaliate.

If your Scarf Kyogre is lobbing Origin Pulses because it's taken a couple of Stealth Rock hits, against a lot of teams one must wonder why you're using Scarf Kyogre at all at that point. Yeah, Kyogre isn't completely neutered, assuming it's running Origin Pulse as backup, but you're getting into the territory of leaving me wondering why you're not, say, Resttalk, or straight Calm Mind.

I'm not seeing why Palkia's default assumed move would be Hydro Pump. Xerneas and Steel types aside (Oh wait, Dialga takes more from Spacial Rend than Hydro Pump) the Ubers meta is slanted toward resisting Water/being weak to Dragon rather than the other way around, and Primal Groudon being such a problem makes Spacial Rend the obvious choice. Unless the enemy team has both Primal Groudon and a Xerneas that hasn't used up its Power Herb yet, I'd tend to think Palkia would prefer Spacial Rend for its greater Accuracy and tendency to hit harder against several targets.

Furthermore, Palkia has better base Speed than Primal Groudon and isn't OHKOed by any of its moves. (252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 276-325 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO. Okay fine Adamant has a tiny chance of OHKOing Palkia with Precipice Blades, assuming it high rolls and doesn't miss) If Groudon does switch into Hydro Pump, what we get is Palkia hits it with Spacial Rend, Groudon retaliates or sets up, and then either Palkia still outspeeds it and finishes it or Groudon used Rock Polish like a dumbass, goes first, doesn't OHKO, and is finished off by another Spacial Rend -end result being that Palkia beats Primal Groudon 1v1 even if Groudon switched into a Hydro Pump.

252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

Primal Support will be 2HKOed by Lustrous Orb Palkia the majority of the time, too.

Please, do tell me, if Origin Pulse being run on Scarf makes you question why it's running a secondary Water move as you imply that's bad, why has Kyogre almost always been running a secondary Water move on Choice sets with Water Spout since choice items were first available? Just curious. And also note, that if you're running Rest-Talk, you're better off running POgre, who can't give rain support, which is one of Base Kyogre's biggest boons over it's Primal, besides item access.

I'm not saying Palkia's first assumed move is Hydro Pump, I'm saying that, if it's choice locked into it (Most of the time I saw it on the ladder, it was scarf, although I don't have the usage stats in front of me because usage is monthly, so I don't know if it's the most common set. I can't even use Ubers as a real reference as it's unviable in Gen 6 and for earlier gens, the sample size on the most recent usage data is far too small. That, or I don't know where to find old gen Uber usage where the usage for the Pokemon is less than 100 for the top Pokemon, which is a pitiful sample pool for any argument - For example, Kyogre in the last month on the Gen 5 Ubers ladder was only used 82 times), as it would be against a Ground team like PDon's, it's complete bait for a PDon to switch in and, if it's a Double Dance set, set up one or maybe even two boosts. Of course PDon is getting 2HKOd by Spacial Rend, it's a Palkia, and it's obvious non-Choice Palkia has a great chance of beating PDon - that's a no brainer. The reason I brought up Primal Support in the first place is because you asked if PDon ran Sp.Def in Ubers, of course just 200 SpD EVs isn't going to let it take that much of a beating specially.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I've discovered a glitch in the omotm coding. I am trying to make a smeargle team, just to try it, but despite it being my god there is a baton pass clause. Is this intended? I doubt it, because BP smeargle is legal in ubers.

 

[bp scrub]

I've discovered a glitch in the omotm coding. I am trying to make a smeargle team, just to try it, but despite it being my god there is a baton pass clause. Is this intended? I doubt it, because BP smeargle is legal in ubers.

[Overall]
Bans: Geomancy
Clauses: OU clauses