Mudbray 2HKOEs Drifloon by using Rock Slide and burns twice as many Recycles unless Wisp is used (and/or using half of the Rock Slides). If Wisp is used, Mudbray can rest. Also, Sleep Talk + Rock Slide + EQ > Sub + Recycle, meaning it'll have to use a damaging move before you run out of Rock Slides or Earthquakes.
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Announcement Goons and Balloons Suspect (Gothita banned! Drifloon still banned!)
- Thread starter macle
- Start date
- Status
Subcycle will still outlast rock slide, though, so the drifloon player will be fine, just not in as good of a position... for whatever reason, the Mudbray user switches out. Again, the matchup is heavily in Mudbray favor (esp since if it switches out drifloon will often have to attack), but a well played drifloon can essentially still trade with its checks and counters, and in many cases give a teammate a setup opportunity in the process.
Personally, in all my use on ladder, drifloon is just good--it's not anywhere near unstoppable, and is quite predictable--but if you rely on something to wall drifloon you had better have more than one answer or not rely on that answer for anything else: acroloon+<Pokémon checked by Mudbray/other drifloon counter> is threatening for a lot of teams, especially when paired with a setup sweeper that uses low pp Mudbray as setup bait. This is the case even more so than normal spam, as Drifloon has a limited answer pool.
That's irrelevant, the Mudbray user does not need to use Rock Slide until Sub and Recycle are low enough PP. For example, it can use any 32 PP moves until Drifloon is forced to use a damaging move. It does not need to use 16 Rock Slides in those 32 times, because, as the above poster stated and what I was responding to, it just needs to wait out Drifloon's moves as it will eventually need to use an attack. I maybe shouldn't have bothered saying anything about Rock Slide because it's mostly just confusing, but what I was trying to point out is that if you don't burn it, you need to use more recycles (in that, without burning, 1 recycle is required per 1 Rock slide, as opposed to 2 rock slides per recycle, since Substitutes cannot be used at that time). The Mudbray only needs to sit on its hands for the Substitute turns, in that case (or a lower amount of Recycles, since it won't actually be able to substitute after a few Rock Slides (since they do around 80%).
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OK sorry for being a little late on commenting in this thread, been a little busy with the holiday shindig. here are my thoughts on the suspects thus far...
gothita - i don't know if i really need to rehash what a lot of the council / players have voiced thus far, but the meta trends that persist in s have made goth an absolute monster. if oras wasn't enough, fighters (*cough* timburr *cough*) are even more important now. with the buff to darks and simple lack of cottonee godliness, bulky fighters have become a beyond a staple on teams, and being able to completely take away their usefulness is absurd. sadly, this isn't the biggest problem with goth. it simply sets up on and takes out essentially every passive special attacker, including the likes of bulky staryu and spritz, which are also two of the mons that help glue together teams the most. goth completely skews matches towards the users favor and i just don't think it's healthy for the tier at all.
diglett - as with most others, i'm kinda torn. on one side of the spectrum, diglett is pitifully weak defensively and can't switch into anything. this makes it much harder to fully abuse than goth. it's definitely not as splashable. on the other side, though, if you have a team tailored perfectly towards abusing diglett's strengths (voltturn, a team that promotes aggressive play), diglett can simply take over games. my problem with this is i actually feel diglett promotes good play, and that's the basis of competitive battling. you can't just slap dig on a tea and consider rocks / steels / fires completely taken care of, and it's up to both players to decide how a match will play out (counter to how i feel goth forces games to play out). this is not to say that diglett is a non-issue, because obviously it's a polarizing mon. i just feel that the sheer fact that dig really can't switch into anything makes it much harder to call it outright broken. idk i think i just need more convincing before i make a decision either way.
drifloon - ill be the first to admit, the burn nerf definitely had an effect on drifloon's ability to completely take over games. however, i really don't think it's enough to make it healthy / competitive mon in the meta. while resttalk mons like mudbray simply shit on the traditional acro set, i feel like with the ban of pory, hex + wow is the set to run anyways. it essentially does what the acro set did last gen, but now lets loon trade wow damage with doubling the power on its stab hex. with normals being incredibly rare (or not able to keep up with loon throughout a match), that essentially leaves darks as the best ways of reliably dealing with this set. even having said that, really only np vullaby (albeit a very strong mon) doesn't care about wow, and most other mons have an incredibly tough time breaking past it. in the end, while loon can't outright stall everything, i believe it still retains most of the strong aspects that make it still too much for the meta. the diversity of its sets that seem be being run right now only adds to the damage it can do, and while the other sets like cm aren't broken in themselves, they add enough diversity so that a player needs to always be wary of what set they may be up against. sub recycle is still the most devastating, but it's worth mentioning.
like i said, these are my first thoughts in this thread. i think i have a good idea of the effect these mons have on the meta, but im gonna need to do a bit more battling to fully solidify my thoughts.
gothita - i don't know if i really need to rehash what a lot of the council / players have voiced thus far, but the meta trends that persist in s have made goth an absolute monster. if oras wasn't enough, fighters (*cough* timburr *cough*) are even more important now. with the buff to darks and simple lack of cottonee godliness, bulky fighters have become a beyond a staple on teams, and being able to completely take away their usefulness is absurd. sadly, this isn't the biggest problem with goth. it simply sets up on and takes out essentially every passive special attacker, including the likes of bulky staryu and spritz, which are also two of the mons that help glue together teams the most. goth completely skews matches towards the users favor and i just don't think it's healthy for the tier at all.
diglett - as with most others, i'm kinda torn. on one side of the spectrum, diglett is pitifully weak defensively and can't switch into anything. this makes it much harder to fully abuse than goth. it's definitely not as splashable. on the other side, though, if you have a team tailored perfectly towards abusing diglett's strengths (voltturn, a team that promotes aggressive play), diglett can simply take over games. my problem with this is i actually feel diglett promotes good play, and that's the basis of competitive battling. you can't just slap dig on a tea and consider rocks / steels / fires completely taken care of, and it's up to both players to decide how a match will play out (counter to how i feel goth forces games to play out). this is not to say that diglett is a non-issue, because obviously it's a polarizing mon. i just feel that the sheer fact that dig really can't switch into anything makes it much harder to call it outright broken. idk i think i just need more convincing before i make a decision either way.
drifloon - ill be the first to admit, the burn nerf definitely had an effect on drifloon's ability to completely take over games. however, i really don't think it's enough to make it healthy / competitive mon in the meta. while resttalk mons like mudbray simply shit on the traditional acro set, i feel like with the ban of pory, hex + wow is the set to run anyways. it essentially does what the acro set did last gen, but now lets loon trade wow damage with doubling the power on its stab hex. with normals being incredibly rare (or not able to keep up with loon throughout a match), that essentially leaves darks as the best ways of reliably dealing with this set. even having said that, really only np vullaby (albeit a very strong mon) doesn't care about wow, and most other mons have an incredibly tough time breaking past it. in the end, while loon can't outright stall everything, i believe it still retains most of the strong aspects that make it still too much for the meta. the diversity of its sets that seem be being run right now only adds to the damage it can do, and while the other sets like cm aren't broken in themselves, they add enough diversity so that a player needs to always be wary of what set they may be up against. sub recycle is still the most devastating, but it's worth mentioning.
like i said, these are my first thoughts in this thread. i think i have a good idea of the effect these mons have on the meta, but im gonna need to do a bit more battling to fully solidify my thoughts.
I actually didn't explain well what I was trying to do: my goal was actually to stall-out the rock slides, then come with snivy and threaten the mudbray to force it to switch out and then come again with drifloon when the mudbray can't touch me anymore. From then, I would simply have tried to put mudbray in range of 3 110 BP acro (which actually was possible if we look to these calcs:
252+ Atk Drifloon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Drifloon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 136 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Drifloon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +2 136 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
so if you add all those calcs, the result goes from 22 HP to 28, and mudbray had likely 25, based on the damage I did with a 55 BP acro)
Anyway, that's true that drifloon can't really stall his opponent as much as before, and I have to say I'm quite impressed since I thought that the burn nerf wouldn't affect him that much. But I honestly do think that drifloon is still really powerful -too powerful imo- since the real advantage of the burn isn't really the damage but the attack drop. And that's what makes drifloon really good, cause it actually wins the 1v1 against grimer-A or even dwebble and co (even eviolite pawniard if you achieve to not take a knock off as long as you have the berry juice). And that's what makes it crazy: if you want to kill him in one hit, then you have to come with a special attacker. But yeah, maybe I'm a bit less "pro-ban" than before, even though I still don't think drifloon should stay in LC.
Btw I have one last replay, my opponent isn't actually that bad in this one and it shows exactly how diglett can be threatning: I made a really risky (some of you could say "dumb") play (it was also for the example tbh), it worked, my opponent lost his check to flying types and the game was more or less over.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebanklc-506293751
The worst with all of that is that my opponent didn't really make any big mistake...
(drifloon wasn't that bad either in this replay btw)
252+ Atk Drifloon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Drifloon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 136 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Drifloon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +2 136 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
so if you add all those calcs, the result goes from 22 HP to 28, and mudbray had likely 25, based on the damage I did with a 55 BP acro)
Anyway, that's true that drifloon can't really stall his opponent as much as before, and I have to say I'm quite impressed since I thought that the burn nerf wouldn't affect him that much. But I honestly do think that drifloon is still really powerful -too powerful imo- since the real advantage of the burn isn't really the damage but the attack drop. And that's what makes drifloon really good, cause it actually wins the 1v1 against grimer-A or even dwebble and co (even eviolite pawniard if you achieve to not take a knock off as long as you have the berry juice). And that's what makes it crazy: if you want to kill him in one hit, then you have to come with a special attacker. But yeah, maybe I'm a bit less "pro-ban" than before, even though I still don't think drifloon should stay in LC.
Btw I have one last replay, my opponent isn't actually that bad in this one and it shows exactly how diglett can be threatning: I made a really risky (some of you could say "dumb") play (it was also for the example tbh), it worked, my opponent lost his check to flying types and the game was more or less over.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebanklc-506293751
The worst with all of that is that my opponent didn't really make any big mistake...
(drifloon wasn't that bad either in this replay btw)
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Yeah Drifloon's unpredictability is really annoying. I have a team with RecyleMag and Scarf Chou as a counter and check respectively to the common Acro set, and I switch in Magnemite on Floon, only to take a Knock Off and render my counter useless. So now when playing vs Floon, I always like to scout for Knock Off, which is forces me to make risky plays all the time, as the Floon could be using Knock Off, Wisp, or Sub switch. I'm currently trying to think of a non-RestTalk Pokemon which is a reliable switch in to all sets of Drifloon, and am struggling to think of one. NP Vullaby is an example, but if you let it switch in and worn down that early, it won't do as good a job at sweeping. It also loses to a Calm Mind Tbolt Floon if it comes in on CM. This forcing you to scout around for the set restricts teambuilding, and forces you to make risky plays early game, since not many mons are safe to switch in to drifloon if you don't know its set (restalk Bray, Ponyta, Restalk Chou, maybe a couple of others), which in my mind is what pushes Floon over the edge.
(agree with most stuff about dig/goth i.e. ban goth, save dig to see it in a Gothita-less meta... idk if Groundium-z dig will gain traction with goth gone, which allows it to trap similar stuff to what Gothita did, but Gothita is better rn, so we'll see if that set picks up once it's gone)
(agree with most stuff about dig/goth i.e. ban goth, save dig to see it in a Gothita-less meta... idk if Groundium-z dig will gain traction with goth gone, which allows it to trap similar stuff to what Gothita did, but Gothita is better rn, so we'll see if that set picks up once it's gone)
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Somehow, these replays given with the intention that I vote ban make me want to vote for both Floon and Dig to be freed. I mean, yea, you double switched Diglett into Chinchou. That's like, a risky play that could have been bad or rewarded. The risk/reward was adequate in my eyes there.
As for floon, you should probably destroy / cripple some stuff with floon. And that's all you did, you didn't actually do anything besides that after Chinchou was gone. And I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding opponent's play, his floon was simply played horribly, it should have substituted obviously so that theif wouldn't steal its item. The game was far from over when Chinchou was picked off - there was still a chance to win.
Alrighty.
Ban Drifloon.
Drifloon may not be quite as good at stalling now as it was back in ORAS. The burn nerf really did hurt the classic SubRecycle set's ability to beat out all of its checks. The issue, however, is that Drifloon is just as good at controlling the hazard game as it always has been. Now that Porygon is out of the tier, there's almost no reason to not run Hex over Acrobatics on SubRecycle sets. This increased damage output helps make up for the burn nerf by allowing Drifloon to do more damage to statused Pokemon. It's also very easy to inflict status effects on foe Pokemon, and part of this is that Drifloon is such a good spinblocker! Toxic Spikes will hit Staryu if it tries to come in to remove them, meaning Drifloon automatically has a 130 BP move to hit it with on the switch in. Drifloon is only OHKOed by Life Orb Staryu's Ice Beam, so against any other set it has an essentially free switch in. The same is true against Drilbur, and all the Defog Pokemon either have better things to do (Vullaby) or still suffer when hit by a Will-O-Wisp (Archen, Stunky). Essentially, Drifloon overcentralizes the hazard game; this - in combination with the unpredictability of its coverage on a potential Calm Mind set and the still-incredible efficacy of SubRecycle and Unburden - brings me to the conclusion that the metagame should stay Drifloon-free.
Ban Gothita.
There's not a lot to say here that hasn't already been said. Few Pokemon in any metagame have ever been capable of directly switching into and 100% guaranteeing the removal of certain Pokemon: Diglett can't switch in, Wynaut has to play guessing games, and Trapinch can do this to a handful of Pokemon. The sheer scope of Gothita's trapping pool that comes at exactly zero risk combined with the potential of its Choice Scarf set puts me squarely on the ban side of the Gothita question.
Ban Diglett.
I know I've been very anti-Diglett ban before. I know that Diglett lost a lot of its good partners in Fletchling and Shellder-not-needing-Ice-Shard-for-Fletchling-anymore. However, I've come to think that the momentum that Diglett can create with Memento and its just-good-enough versatility is still too much. The only Pokemon that cannot be turned useless by Memento are Snivy, Pawniard (which is beaten by Diglett), and potentially those Pokemon with status moves. This leaves a very large part of the metagame powerless in the face of a Memento, and that's after Diglett gets a guaranteed KO. Now, Diglett has a hard time switching into Pokemon when it runs its signature Life Orb set; that much is painfully obvious. Whenever it does get in, however, it is essentially guaranteed one KO, assuming it's in on something it wants to be in on or against something at or around 50%. That is not true of any other Pokemon, outside of Trapinch and Gothita. Trapinch is super slow and can only really run one moveset; Gothita is already very bannable. My opinion is that Diglett skews momentum in the favor of its user too much; you can't use Ponyta or a Knocked Off Foongus against a Mienfoo, because Diglett could come in on Mienfoo's U-turn and potentially fire off a Tectonic Rage that OHKOs either of them. Oh yeah, Z Moves! Sure, Diglett can gain overall power from Life Orb or switch-in-ability from Focus Sash, or it can trap everything Sash Dig traps plus the potential for one more surprise trap with Groundium Z! And, y'know, Diglett is fairly customizable too! It can run Beat Up for Abra and Gastly, Sludge Bomb for Cottonee, Morelull, and other Grass-types, or it can just Memento whatever comes in after it gets a KO. It's just versatile enough, just strong enough, and just good enough to be a big hassle every match. I've changed my mind from last gen to now: ban Diglett.
Overall, I'm just excited to see us move into the next stage of our metagame, and I'm proud of the council for putting the hard votes up early. Hopefully our community will be able to be more involved soon; for now, though, a big thanks to everyone contributing and good luck for our future!
Drifloon may not be quite as good at stalling now as it was back in ORAS. The burn nerf really did hurt the classic SubRecycle set's ability to beat out all of its checks. The issue, however, is that Drifloon is just as good at controlling the hazard game as it always has been. Now that Porygon is out of the tier, there's almost no reason to not run Hex over Acrobatics on SubRecycle sets. This increased damage output helps make up for the burn nerf by allowing Drifloon to do more damage to statused Pokemon. It's also very easy to inflict status effects on foe Pokemon, and part of this is that Drifloon is such a good spinblocker! Toxic Spikes will hit Staryu if it tries to come in to remove them, meaning Drifloon automatically has a 130 BP move to hit it with on the switch in. Drifloon is only OHKOed by Life Orb Staryu's Ice Beam, so against any other set it has an essentially free switch in. The same is true against Drilbur, and all the Defog Pokemon either have better things to do (Vullaby) or still suffer when hit by a Will-O-Wisp (Archen, Stunky). Essentially, Drifloon overcentralizes the hazard game; this - in combination with the unpredictability of its coverage on a potential Calm Mind set and the still-incredible efficacy of SubRecycle and Unburden - brings me to the conclusion that the metagame should stay Drifloon-free.
There's not a lot to say here that hasn't already been said. Few Pokemon in any metagame have ever been capable of directly switching into and 100% guaranteeing the removal of certain Pokemon: Diglett can't switch in, Wynaut has to play guessing games, and Trapinch can do this to a handful of Pokemon. The sheer scope of Gothita's trapping pool that comes at exactly zero risk combined with the potential of its Choice Scarf set puts me squarely on the ban side of the Gothita question.
I know I've been very anti-Diglett ban before. I know that Diglett lost a lot of its good partners in Fletchling and Shellder-not-needing-Ice-Shard-for-Fletchling-anymore. However, I've come to think that the momentum that Diglett can create with Memento and its just-good-enough versatility is still too much. The only Pokemon that cannot be turned useless by Memento are Snivy, Pawniard (which is beaten by Diglett), and potentially those Pokemon with status moves. This leaves a very large part of the metagame powerless in the face of a Memento, and that's after Diglett gets a guaranteed KO. Now, Diglett has a hard time switching into Pokemon when it runs its signature Life Orb set; that much is painfully obvious. Whenever it does get in, however, it is essentially guaranteed one KO, assuming it's in on something it wants to be in on or against something at or around 50%. That is not true of any other Pokemon, outside of Trapinch and Gothita. Trapinch is super slow and can only really run one moveset; Gothita is already very bannable. My opinion is that Diglett skews momentum in the favor of its user too much; you can't use Ponyta or a Knocked Off Foongus against a Mienfoo, because Diglett could come in on Mienfoo's U-turn and potentially fire off a Tectonic Rage that OHKOs either of them. Oh yeah, Z Moves! Sure, Diglett can gain overall power from Life Orb or switch-in-ability from Focus Sash, or it can trap everything Sash Dig traps plus the potential for one more surprise trap with Groundium Z! And, y'know, Diglett is fairly customizable too! It can run Beat Up for Abra and Gastly, Sludge Bomb for Cottonee, Morelull, and other Grass-types, or it can just Memento whatever comes in after it gets a KO. It's just versatile enough, just strong enough, and just good enough to be a big hassle every match. I've changed my mind from last gen to now: ban Diglett.
Overall, I'm just excited to see us move into the next stage of our metagame, and I'm proud of the council for putting the hard votes up early. Hopefully our community will be able to be more involved soon; for now, though, a big thanks to everyone contributing and good luck for our future!
Drifloon is in no way the top tier spinblocker it was last gen. Staryu, if it wants to actually win versus any spinblocker, be it Drifloon or Pumpkaboo, is now running 116 SpA EVs with Analytic and Ice Beam. You mentioned that Staryu can't come in versus Drifloon and win (if tspikes are up), but that has no relevance. As a spinblocker, you should be able to come in on spinners and win versus them. Drifloon, simply put, does not. After rocks, it is 100% killed by Ice Beam, and Hydro Pump is an 80% kill. Drifloon can only come in safely versus a rapid spin, and if that scenario occurs then Staryu can just switch out and come back into play later to threaten strong attacks and hazard removal. I'm not against a Drifloon ban, but I'm against it for flawed arguments like this.Ban Drifloon.
Drifloon may not be quite as good at stalling now as it was back in ORAS. The burn nerf really did hurt the classic SubRecycle set's ability to beat out all of its checks. The issue, however, is that Drifloon is just as good at controlling the hazard game as it always has been. Now that Porygon is out of the tier, there's almost no reason to not run Hex over Acrobatics on SubRecycle sets. This increased damage output helps make up for the burn nerf by allowing Drifloon to do more damage to statused Pokemon. It's also very easy to inflict status effects on foe Pokemon, and part of this is that Drifloon is such a good spinblocker! Toxic Spikes will hit Staryu if it tries to come in to remove them, meaning Drifloon automatically has a 130 BP move to hit it with on the switch in. Drifloon is only OHKOed by Life Orb Staryu's Ice Beam, so against any other set it has an essentially free switch in. The same is true against Drilbur, and all the Defog Pokemon either have better things to do (Vullaby) or still suffer when hit by a Will-O-Wisp (Archen, Stunky). Essentially, Drifloon overcentralizes the hazard game; this - in combination with the unpredictability of its coverage on a potential Calm Mind set and the still-incredible efficacy of SubRecycle and Unburden - brings me to the conclusion that the metagame should stay Drifloon-free.
Also, regarding Diglett, it's really not broken right now. I have seen one or two Tectonic Rage sets, and even then, at trapping the things that Tectonic Rage maybe deals with, it's currently outclassed by Gothita. Maybe there will be a chance that it's broken if/once Gothita is banned, but that should be dealt with then and not now, since that's a hypothetical argument.
While your point about Drifloon is true, it doesn't change the fact that Staryu that opt to run moves other than Hydro Pump or Ice Beam or abilities other than Analytic (aka defensive Scald / Psychic + Natural Cure sets) will still lose to Drifloon. Staryu has the potential to get around any spinner, and you said that yourself. Against any other form of hazard removal, and even a lot of Staryu, Drifloon gains an advantage. And, as always, with the argument as it pertains to coming back into play later, Drifloon can also do that. Drifloon is easily the best spinblocker in the tier, no questions asked.
Figured I should probably post my thoughts before I vote. Gonna keep it short & sweet as I don't really have anything new to add and don't want to just echo what everyone else is saying
Gothita: Nobodys arguing that it should stay
Diglett: I didn't think it was broken in ORAS and it's only gotten a lot worse. It didn't get anything new that could make it better except maybe Groundium Z which isn't much more powerful than just using Life Orb. Many of its partners don't need Diglett anymore or are just bad now. The most legitimate reason I see for banning Diglett would be to ease the strain it puts on teambuilding, but I don't think Diglett's presence is that extreme. I plan to vote no ban.
Drifloon: It's too good at way too many things. It's very hard to prepare for in teambuilding and feels incredibly overcentralizing. I don't think the metagame shifts or mechanic changes have been enough to reintroduce Drifloon into the meta and I'll be voting to keep it banned.
Gothita: Nobodys arguing that it should stay
Diglett: I didn't think it was broken in ORAS and it's only gotten a lot worse. It didn't get anything new that could make it better except maybe Groundium Z which isn't much more powerful than just using Life Orb. Many of its partners don't need Diglett anymore or are just bad now. The most legitimate reason I see for banning Diglett would be to ease the strain it puts on teambuilding, but I don't think Diglett's presence is that extreme. I plan to vote no ban.
Drifloon: It's too good at way too many things. It's very hard to prepare for in teambuilding and feels incredibly overcentralizing. I don't think the metagame shifts or mechanic changes have been enough to reintroduce Drifloon into the meta and I'll be voting to keep it banned.
Yeah it would be good to post my thoughts on this too:
Gothita: Ever since people started running the CM set over scarf, this thing has become a menace. I believe last gen I even called it "what trapping looks like when it's not broken" since it was too weak to get many KOes without needing to weaken the threats Gothita needs to trap first. But now that Gothita's main job is to set up on a wall and never die without really bad luck, it's become a lot more self-reliant and a lot harder to take advantage of once it KOes it's target. A Dark-type is mandatory on every team, or something physical that can outspeed and OHKO bulky Gothita, or else you are getting swept by Gothita after it traps something. You also can't run any wall that can't pivot, or Gothita can just come in on it and win every time. The scarf set is still good too, since it contrasts so much with the CM set that it surprises you when you see it. Gothita is such a strain on teambuilding and playing that it needs to go.
Diglett: As much as I'd love to see this thing go too, I don't think Diglett is that bad right now. Gothita being removed might make it the premier trapper and then make it broken again, but that seems a little unlikely. While it is far more powerful than Gothita is off the bat, and so fast that it doesn't need a Scarf, Diglett is too frail to switch in and still be a threat, unless it can come in on an Electric-type move. It needs to be pivoted in by a slow U-turner, or it needs to come in after something on your team has been knocked out. That, to me, is the major difference between Gothita and Diglett, and what makes Gothita broken and Diglett not broken but just good. They both can trade 1 for 1 Pokemon on each team, but the order in which that 1 for 1 usually happens is reversed: Gothita KOes you first, then gets KOed. With Diglett, you get the KO first, then Diglett comes in and gets a KO back. You have more agency when dealing with Diglett (though still not very much of it) than you do with Gothita because that which Diglett traps can still be threatening and doesn't have its existence invalidated by Diglett. I'd run Salandit or Skrelp despite Diglett being in the metagame, but I would not run Foongus or Spritzee entirely because of Gothita.
Drifloon: People need to use this thing on the ladder more! So far I have little experience playing against it, but what experience I do have is not pretty. I won't talk very much about it because of that, but I will say that playing against it has been every bit as tedious and not fun as it was back in ORAS. The burn nerf only affected the damage burn deals and not the halving of Attack, so physical attackers, even ones with strong super effective moves, are still not checks to it unless they are immune to burn. CM Hex along with the classic Recycle staller are very much viable, and it does create a pressure on you during teambuilding that is very strong. I'll most likely vote to ban this thing.
Gothita: Ever since people started running the CM set over scarf, this thing has become a menace. I believe last gen I even called it "what trapping looks like when it's not broken" since it was too weak to get many KOes without needing to weaken the threats Gothita needs to trap first. But now that Gothita's main job is to set up on a wall and never die without really bad luck, it's become a lot more self-reliant and a lot harder to take advantage of once it KOes it's target. A Dark-type is mandatory on every team, or something physical that can outspeed and OHKO bulky Gothita, or else you are getting swept by Gothita after it traps something. You also can't run any wall that can't pivot, or Gothita can just come in on it and win every time. The scarf set is still good too, since it contrasts so much with the CM set that it surprises you when you see it. Gothita is such a strain on teambuilding and playing that it needs to go.
Diglett: As much as I'd love to see this thing go too, I don't think Diglett is that bad right now. Gothita being removed might make it the premier trapper and then make it broken again, but that seems a little unlikely. While it is far more powerful than Gothita is off the bat, and so fast that it doesn't need a Scarf, Diglett is too frail to switch in and still be a threat, unless it can come in on an Electric-type move. It needs to be pivoted in by a slow U-turner, or it needs to come in after something on your team has been knocked out. That, to me, is the major difference between Gothita and Diglett, and what makes Gothita broken and Diglett not broken but just good. They both can trade 1 for 1 Pokemon on each team, but the order in which that 1 for 1 usually happens is reversed: Gothita KOes you first, then gets KOed. With Diglett, you get the KO first, then Diglett comes in and gets a KO back. You have more agency when dealing with Diglett (though still not very much of it) than you do with Gothita because that which Diglett traps can still be threatening and doesn't have its existence invalidated by Diglett. I'd run Salandit or Skrelp despite Diglett being in the metagame, but I would not run Foongus or Spritzee entirely because of Gothita.
Drifloon: People need to use this thing on the ladder more! So far I have little experience playing against it, but what experience I do have is not pretty. I won't talk very much about it because of that, but I will say that playing against it has been every bit as tedious and not fun as it was back in ORAS. The burn nerf only affected the damage burn deals and not the halving of Attack, so physical attackers, even ones with strong super effective moves, are still not checks to it unless they are immune to burn. CM Hex along with the classic Recycle staller are very much viable, and it does create a pressure on you during teambuilding that is very strong. I'll most likely vote to ban this thing.
I'm gonna keep things short and sweet because I don't wanna waste your time by reading the same time for the 50th time. This is just so you guys know how I'm feeling.
Gothita: I think Goth needs to go. It forces numerous defensive Pokemon to either run awkward coverage or simply not exist and can even abuse many of those Pokemon by setting up as much as it wants, forcing you to run something which is guaranteed to take it out, like a Dark-type or something with strong enough physical coverage. It can choose to run a Scarf set to trap some threats better but the standard CM set is almost always the way to go. There isn't too much else I can think of right now. Hurts teambuilding, yadayadayada.
Diglett: I was never someone that wanted Diglett banned in the first place. Initially I actually thought it was better in this meta which almost made me change my mind, but after a while I've come to feel the same as usual. Diglett's inability to switch in on most attacks is a major problem that it'll always have, but I also feel like the large increase of mons that are either scarfed or increase their speed in some way is making Diglett's niche a bit less useful. I still think it's amazing, because it being paired with a slow u-turn-/volt switch/parting shot user will still net you great results, but like what fatty said, and what I had said for most of ORAS, is that Diglett promotes good play, which stems from the limitations on the mon itself.
Drifloon: I've been torn on this since we let it come back. When we banned it in ORAS, we heavily focused on the Acrobatics set and rarely factored the CM set, and at times completely dismissed it. I never agreed with that and thought that the CM set was still very good, and honestly, my feelings don't change with SM. I still feel as though the CM set is very good, but I don't feel as though the Acro set is a lot worse. There are some mons it can't stall out now, but it can still spread burns and wear down mons fairly well. You still have to prepare for both sets because they have different checks. Having different sets to prepare for isn't normally a reason to want to ban a mon, but when the sets are all very good and require different preparation it becomes a problem. I'm leaning towards keeping it banned but could still be swayed either way.
I apologise for this post being mediocre. I wasn't feeling the most inspired but still wanted to get basic thoughts out there.
Gothita: I think Goth needs to go. It forces numerous defensive Pokemon to either run awkward coverage or simply not exist and can even abuse many of those Pokemon by setting up as much as it wants, forcing you to run something which is guaranteed to take it out, like a Dark-type or something with strong enough physical coverage. It can choose to run a Scarf set to trap some threats better but the standard CM set is almost always the way to go. There isn't too much else I can think of right now. Hurts teambuilding, yadayadayada.
Diglett: I was never someone that wanted Diglett banned in the first place. Initially I actually thought it was better in this meta which almost made me change my mind, but after a while I've come to feel the same as usual. Diglett's inability to switch in on most attacks is a major problem that it'll always have, but I also feel like the large increase of mons that are either scarfed or increase their speed in some way is making Diglett's niche a bit less useful. I still think it's amazing, because it being paired with a slow u-turn-/volt switch/parting shot user will still net you great results, but like what fatty said, and what I had said for most of ORAS, is that Diglett promotes good play, which stems from the limitations on the mon itself.
Drifloon: I've been torn on this since we let it come back. When we banned it in ORAS, we heavily focused on the Acrobatics set and rarely factored the CM set, and at times completely dismissed it. I never agreed with that and thought that the CM set was still very good, and honestly, my feelings don't change with SM. I still feel as though the CM set is very good, but I don't feel as though the Acro set is a lot worse. There are some mons it can't stall out now, but it can still spread burns and wear down mons fairly well. You still have to prepare for both sets because they have different checks. Having different sets to prepare for isn't normally a reason to want to ban a mon, but when the sets are all very good and require different preparation it becomes a problem. I'm leaning towards keeping it banned but could still be swayed either way.
I apologise for this post being mediocre. I wasn't feeling the most inspired but still wanted to get basic thoughts out there.
Someone has to explain the "Diglett promotes good play" thing to me because clearly I must be missing something. A slower pokemon pivoting into a blindingly fast and pretty powerful trapper that leaves the opponent without any counterplay is classified as good play now? It is true that if you're using Scarf Chinchou and the opponent has Diglett, the person who gets the 50/50 right will be rewarded. However, now you're effectively promoting flipping a coin as "good play".
I also disagree with some of the anti-ban side's arguments. The one that annoys me most is that Diglett can't be broken because it can't switch into anything. While obviously Diglett's defenses are awful, this argument doesn't make much sense at all. Even though I wasn't around for the meta's that included Yanma or Sneasel, I can't imagine that they were able to switch into a lot of moves. It's not usually Diglett's job to switch into its targets either, but it can potentially adapt if your team so requires as evidenced by its Focus Sash and (far less important but still worth noting) Eviolite sets.
It's undeniable that Diglett is not quite as good in SM as it was in ORAS. Fletchling was one of its best partners but some other old partners still remain such as Shellder, Vullaby, Mienfoo and Zigzagoon. Furthermore it's only a matter of time before new cores emerge, possibly even new ones centered around its Z-move that allows Diglett to trap some mons that would be safe against its old sets. I'm thinking of Diglett + Abra/Gastly to trap Alolan Grimer for example.
Another point that was brought up is how Diglett can be turned into set up fodder. This is true for some sets but it seems people are conveniently forgetting that it learns Memento to nullify this potential issue. I feel like it's important to note that Diglett can only be taken advantage of after it's already done its job of opening a hole in the opposing team by removing a key part.
Many people who are better than me at talking about policy, have made convincing arguments that trapping isn't healthy to a metagame. As it stands, Diglett is too good at trapping opposing Pokemon and should be banned in my opinion. Gothita and Drifloon should also be banned and I'm glad to see that most people at least agree with that.
e: heysup is smarter than me
I also disagree with some of the anti-ban side's arguments. The one that annoys me most is that Diglett can't be broken because it can't switch into anything. While obviously Diglett's defenses are awful, this argument doesn't make much sense at all. Even though I wasn't around for the meta's that included Yanma or Sneasel, I can't imagine that they were able to switch into a lot of moves. It's not usually Diglett's job to switch into its targets either, but it can potentially adapt if your team so requires as evidenced by its Focus Sash and (far less important but still worth noting) Eviolite sets.
It's undeniable that Diglett is not quite as good in SM as it was in ORAS. Fletchling was one of its best partners but some other old partners still remain such as Shellder, Vullaby, Mienfoo and Zigzagoon. Furthermore it's only a matter of time before new cores emerge, possibly even new ones centered around its Z-move that allows Diglett to trap some mons that would be safe against its old sets. I'm thinking of Diglett + Abra/Gastly to trap Alolan Grimer for example.
Another point that was brought up is how Diglett can be turned into set up fodder. This is true for some sets but it seems people are conveniently forgetting that it learns Memento to nullify this potential issue. I feel like it's important to note that Diglett can only be taken advantage of after it's already done its job of opening a hole in the opposing team by removing a key part.
Many people who are better than me at talking about policy, have made convincing arguments that trapping isn't healthy to a metagame. As it stands, Diglett is too good at trapping opposing Pokemon and should be banned in my opinion. Gothita and Drifloon should also be banned and I'm glad to see that most people at least agree with that.
e: heysup is smarter than me
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For the subject constantly being returned to Diglett, It shouldn't come to a surprise from one of the most controversial mons.
Now personally, I did say an exteem in ''ban the thing'' but this gen it simply hasn't done anything proven to be broken yet (or so far for my opnion).
In fact, it has primarily been utilizing older sets like Focus Sash(mostly from the Z-Porygon/Cutiefly metagame or more unique sets example; Darkium-Z(few).
I could be quoting myself and say that because not much changed it would have the same influence but that's Theory-moning because it hasn't done much, let alone the same it did last gen.
It's even without question there was an issue with it last gen, the degree it had is of question. Most of what it did could be capitalized in an isolated argument.
One of the instances would be in limitation for some of the most versatile pivots/wallbreakers/Utility mons ranging between Bulkier Chinchou, Berry Juice-Magnemite, none-Flame Charge Ponyta sets, generally not wasteful Houndour sets(Yes that discludes Scarf), Vulpix, Croagunk, Stunky and Skrelp.
Sets on viable mons and vital mons that are simply put into a more disfavored position, noticeably more then they would be compared to a regular attacker.
Jadi-jada-jada, most things of this have been suggested multiple times in the first and second Diglett suspect so I feel little need to repeat that.
Unlike any other however these mons can't be substituted for a more metagame favoring pokemon/Set as they would direct too much from it's original use: instance use Scarfed Magnemite over Recycle-Magnemite won't fix the issue of being prone to Smashers or heavy attackers.
I did also like to add to that how it's different from a traditional attacker. A traditional attacker would have immense offensive force to prevent the opponent from switching right of the bat. For Scarfed Goth/LO Diglett this clearly wasn't the case as shown last gen's Diglett + Goth suspect where the general theme went more around it being ''Broken'' because of how strong they were.
However as with the the second suspect the general opinion was oriented around it being or not being healthy to the metagame. The very opinion of it providing a healthier metagame was one of the notable ones that got carried till the end.
With absolute all respect, but how does a mon that is able to limit other viable options in a metagame, limit(or put at higher risk) a player during play and limit options of different viable playstyles down to be more disadvantaged, a positive. All I can see in that is how you are put at a greater disadvantage during and before (teambuilding limitation arguments) the battle along side the direct limitations to mons that have a little to offer but are very much ignored simply because of Diglett. This is not even including the most important thing about Diglett in the supportive uses it has. Being able to forcefully/quickly remove something for another poke to have a free passway the next time it gets the momentum to set up or to directly cause damage as it's main answer is down.
While anyone has differing opinions (as with most point I made in this post), I am just curious as to how it was positive for last gen's metagame.
Now personally, I did say an exteem in ''ban the thing'' but this gen it simply hasn't done anything proven to be broken yet (or so far for my opnion).
In fact, it has primarily been utilizing older sets like Focus Sash(mostly from the Z-Porygon/Cutiefly metagame or more unique sets example; Darkium-Z(few).
I could be quoting myself and say that because not much changed it would have the same influence but that's Theory-moning because it hasn't done much, let alone the same it did last gen.
It's even without question there was an issue with it last gen, the degree it had is of question. Most of what it did could be capitalized in an isolated argument.
One of the instances would be in limitation for some of the most versatile pivots/wallbreakers/Utility mons ranging between Bulkier Chinchou, Berry Juice-Magnemite, none-Flame Charge Ponyta sets, generally not wasteful Houndour sets(Yes that discludes Scarf), Vulpix, Croagunk, Stunky and Skrelp.
Sets on viable mons and vital mons that are simply put into a more disfavored position, noticeably more then they would be compared to a regular attacker.
Jadi-jada-jada, most things of this have been suggested multiple times in the first and second Diglett suspect so I feel little need to repeat that.
Unlike any other however these mons can't be substituted for a more metagame favoring pokemon/Set as they would direct too much from it's original use: instance use Scarfed Magnemite over Recycle-Magnemite won't fix the issue of being prone to Smashers or heavy attackers.
I did also like to add to that how it's different from a traditional attacker. A traditional attacker would have immense offensive force to prevent the opponent from switching right of the bat. For Scarfed Goth/LO Diglett this clearly wasn't the case as shown last gen's Diglett + Goth suspect where the general theme went more around it being ''Broken'' because of how strong they were.
However as with the the second suspect the general opinion was oriented around it being or not being healthy to the metagame. The very opinion of it providing a healthier metagame was one of the notable ones that got carried till the end.
With absolute all respect, but how does a mon that is able to limit other viable options in a metagame, limit(or put at higher risk) a player during play and limit options of different viable playstyles down to be more disadvantaged, a positive. All I can see in that is how you are put at a greater disadvantage during and before (teambuilding limitation arguments) the battle along side the direct limitations to mons that have a little to offer but are very much ignored simply because of Diglett. This is not even including the most important thing about Diglett in the supportive uses it has. Being able to forcefully/quickly remove something for another poke to have a free passway the next time it gets the momentum to set up or to directly cause damage as it's main answer is down.
While anyone has differing opinions (as with most point I made in this post), I am just curious as to how it was positive for last gen's metagame.
I can't speak to that good play argument because I also don't get it.
However, Yanma had quite an easy time switching into fighting types, especially when considering Meditite often ran fake out bullet punch, foo often didn't have an ice or rock move, and Timburr's was often too weak to KO. It also could switch into grass types like Foongus and Cottonee (which was very common).
Sneasel on the other hand didn't switch in as much, but it basically won the game with any Pokemon it lives an attack from due to its bulk, so it would be wasteful to send it in to take an attack when it can just come in and end the game. Not only does Diglett lack that effect, but comparing Sneasel's 55/55/75 to Diglett's paper defense is a pretty huge drop off.
I don't think we can consider banning things based on what could, in theory, be good cores that really haven't been too influential. Not that it's bad, but I mean Diglett trapping one counter and doing nothing to more common ones (like <insert Scarf or 19+ speeder) makes it seem, at least to me, like it will be far from game-breaking. I also think Shellder + Dig for example is a bit of a waste; I don't think Shellder needs it anymore because it can just run Razor Shell.
Diglett is basically a specific wall breaker with no switch in capacity. I generally prefer using wall breakers that have other utility like Doduo which can switch into Foongus, Cottonee, and sparingly into weaker attackers like Croagunk Drain Punches or Timburr Mach Punches. Diglett's only utility is electric immunity, but all common users have a 50/50 shot to just OHKO it anyway.
I disagree, I think Diglett is very much set up bait. Regarding Memento, Diglett has 4mss already - it CAN Memento, but that means it's lacking Sludge Bomb, Sub, Sucker, or Slide, all of which mean it's not entirely as effective at doing its job. Frankly, against an equally skilled player / team builder, Diglett's job is often sometimes regulated to just revenge killing already weakened Pokemon. I think its a bit absurd to say that a situation like: Pokemon A is KOed by Pokemon B, Diglett revenges Pokemon B, then Pokemon C comes out and sets up on Diglett, but Diglett Mementos is a broken scenario. You can't claim that Diglett has done it's job but also claim Pokemon B didn't. Diglett generally needs a sacrifice or support to actually do its job without sacrificing - this is not that easy to do, despite Foo being great at it, there's lots of Pokemon it can't just pivot out of. Pokemon B and C actually win that exchange (albeit in a vacuum).
This is also ignoring the fact that Snivy and Zigzagoon don't give 3 shits about Memento and some smashers can still sweep handily late game with +2 Speed.
Furthermore, when you consider that not all "set up" Pokemon is stat boosting, but also hazard stacking, Memento is useless. I'm pretty sure both Omanyte and Kabuto get two solid turns to set up Rocks then either Spike or Spin respectively. Or just KO it outright after setting up Rocks. What was once its trap bait has now, since the Weak Armor buff, turned the table and used Diglett as set up bait. Dwebble probably gets 3 turns.
This is another example where I think badged users should be held to a higher standard and we should not be seeing paragraphs like this from them. That fake-hidden snide attack on the voting system, while there may be some merit to criticism, detracts from your credibility because there's no substance behind it.
Finally, trapping is not suspected. Diglett and Gothita are. Trapinch and Wynaut are also able to trap but they don't have the adequate speed/movepool to take advantage of it in the same way that Diglett and Gothita can, at least in my experience. Until we see some legitimacy from the argument that those Pokemon are also unhealthy, the "trapping is unhealthy" argument holds no weight whatsoever. If you're referring to Blarajan's post from last gen, while Macle also did that, it's not "evidence" in the least and it's talking about a different metagame with different mechanics and different Pokemon. Feel free to actually link the logic to this metagame, but simply citing it is not going to cut it - at least not enough to convince me (or anyone else that doesn't already share your perspective) that it's still legitimate.
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The council has voted, and the following has happened:
By an 11-2 vote, Drifloon will remain banned.
By a 2-11 vote, Diglett will remain legal.
By a unanimous 13-0 vote, Gothita is banned.
Council votes:
Drifloon Ban: Quote, Celestavian, OP, Heysup, Fiend, Mambo, Star, fatty, zf, sken, shrug
Drifloon No Ban: macle, Levi
Diglett Ban: macle, Mambo
Diglett No Ban: Quote, Celestavian, OP, Heysup, Fiend, Levi, Star, fatty, zf, sken, shrug
Gothita Ban: Quote, Celestavian, macle, OP, Heysup, Fiend, Mambo, Levi, Star, fatty, zf, sken, Shrug
Gothita No Ban:
Thank you to the council for their cooperation, and to everyone that participated in the discussion.
By an 11-2 vote, Drifloon will remain banned.
By a 2-11 vote, Diglett will remain legal.
By a unanimous 13-0 vote, Gothita is banned.
Council votes:
Ban Gothita
It restricts a good portion of the meta from even existing and sets up on numerous things to the point where you can literally lose if you lack a physically offensive dark-type or strong enough physical attacker. On top of that, it can run a Scarf set to mix up what it can beat which makes playing against it a bit more difficult at times.
Keep Drifloon Banned
Incredibly versatile, it truly requires multiple Pokemon to check it properly because of the unpredictability of its sets. While the Acro set isn't as good as it used to be because of the Burn nerf, it can still do the job fairly well, spreading burns and wearing most threats down pretty well. The CM set is also devastating because you're outspeeding the entire metagame while dealing out large damage. I just don't think our metagame is in a position to be able to handle everything it can do.
Do Not Ban Diglett
Diglett is still potent but I don't feel like it's as good this gen because most of its originally well-known partners don't need it, and there is an increase in threats that it can't fight effectively, including numerous Pokemon that boost their speed or commonly run Scarf. It can still run a fantastic combo using slow voltturn, but overall I don't feel like that's effective enough to warrant a ban.
It restricts a good portion of the meta from even existing and sets up on numerous things to the point where you can literally lose if you lack a physically offensive dark-type or strong enough physical attacker. On top of that, it can run a Scarf set to mix up what it can beat which makes playing against it a bit more difficult at times.
Keep Drifloon Banned
Incredibly versatile, it truly requires multiple Pokemon to check it properly because of the unpredictability of its sets. While the Acro set isn't as good as it used to be because of the Burn nerf, it can still do the job fairly well, spreading burns and wearing most threats down pretty well. The CM set is also devastating because you're outspeeding the entire metagame while dealing out large damage. I just don't think our metagame is in a position to be able to handle everything it can do.
Do Not Ban Diglett
Diglett is still potent but I don't feel like it's as good this gen because most of its originally well-known partners don't need it, and there is an increase in threats that it can't fight effectively, including numerous Pokemon that boost their speed or commonly run Scarf. It can still run a fantastic combo using slow voltturn, but overall I don't feel like that's effective enough to warrant a ban.
ban gothita and diglett
i believe trapping in general is an uncompetitive aspect of pokemon because it restricts team building heavily and has no counters in the game. It removes skill from the game by causing lots of 50/50 too.
free floon
im currently on the fence about floon and since i cant 100% say it should be banned, im voting to free it. WOW nerf hurt a lot but its still a bitch but is it really a broken bitch? im not sure and i dont think anyone has really convinced me that its still broken
i believe trapping in general is an uncompetitive aspect of pokemon because it restricts team building heavily and has no counters in the game. It removes skill from the game by causing lots of 50/50 too.
free floon
im currently on the fence about floon and since i cant 100% say it should be banned, im voting to free it. WOW nerf hurt a lot but its still a bitch but is it really a broken bitch? im not sure and i dont think anyone has really convinced me that its still broken
Keep Drifloon banned
The only thing that has made Drifloon worse is the wow nerf, which isn't that big of a deal compared to all the things that have shifted in its favor, such as the absence of porygon making hex sets much better, and cm offensive is really good with hp fighting for pawniard or thunderbolt for water types and vullaby. Its incredible spinblocking ability makes it really difficult to remove hazards and worth a mention too.
Do not ban Diglett
Diglett is a good pokemon in lc and a great trapper, but it can't switch into any of the mons that it wants to trap and needs either to revenge kill stuff or to get into the field via volt-turn to trap mons. Volt-turn has became a bit worse with timburr being many times a better fighting-type than mienfoo, the introduction of mudbray as a better mag/elekid check, the preparation of many teams against staryu which indirectly affects chinchou,etc. Fletchling gone means fletchdig isn't a thing anymore, shellder doesn't need diglett anymore sice razor shell already kills steel-types as it doesn't need ice shard for fletch anymore, np vullaby has heat wave... It just doesn't support things as well as it used to do.
Ban Gothita
Gothita is too good right now. The CM resttalk set can switch into many defensive mons (foongus, mareanie, spritzee...) without giving them a chance, and it can use charm for phisical threats too (mudbray, ponyta...). At the same time the scarf set can check fighting types, staryu, chinchou, ferroseed, archen and other offensive mons at the same time. The difficulty to predict the set makes it really difficult to try to play around, and the huge coverage for scarf sets and options for evio sets make it deserve a ban.
The only thing that has made Drifloon worse is the wow nerf, which isn't that big of a deal compared to all the things that have shifted in its favor, such as the absence of porygon making hex sets much better, and cm offensive is really good with hp fighting for pawniard or thunderbolt for water types and vullaby. Its incredible spinblocking ability makes it really difficult to remove hazards and worth a mention too.
Do not ban Diglett
Diglett is a good pokemon in lc and a great trapper, but it can't switch into any of the mons that it wants to trap and needs either to revenge kill stuff or to get into the field via volt-turn to trap mons. Volt-turn has became a bit worse with timburr being many times a better fighting-type than mienfoo, the introduction of mudbray as a better mag/elekid check, the preparation of many teams against staryu which indirectly affects chinchou,etc. Fletchling gone means fletchdig isn't a thing anymore, shellder doesn't need diglett anymore sice razor shell already kills steel-types as it doesn't need ice shard for fletch anymore, np vullaby has heat wave... It just doesn't support things as well as it used to do.
Ban Gothita
Gothita is too good right now. The CM resttalk set can switch into many defensive mons (foongus, mareanie, spritzee...) without giving them a chance, and it can use charm for phisical threats too (mudbray, ponyta...). At the same time the scarf set can check fighting types, staryu, chinchou, ferroseed, archen and other offensive mons at the same time. The difficulty to predict the set makes it really difficult to try to play around, and the huge coverage for scarf sets and options for evio sets make it deserve a ban.
Gothita: Ban
Not much to say outside of what others have already said about Gothita. The standard RestTalk set switches in and traps most passive / weak special attackers, effectively strangling diversity in the metagame. Variants of this set allow it to trap more (Charm, 16 SpD) or alleviate problems with Pursuit trapping / Dark type setup bait (TBolt, Substitute). Scarf and Evio sets just add another layer of unpredictability to an already strong mon.
Diglett: No ban
"Classic" Diglett cores from ORAS, barring Mienfoo+Diglett, are no longer viable or do not need Diglett's support for sweeping. Obviously Diglett still has a large list of pokemon it can trap, but lacks the bulk to switch in directly and, as stated above, doesn't really have any amazing partners with U-Turn (Fletchling, Vullaby in ORAS) that force switches to Diglett-weak checks. At the moment, Diglett is manageable because the strain it puts on teambuilding is much less than it did last generation.
Drifloon: Keep it banned
While the burn nerf certainly hurt Drifloon, it's still too strong in the current metagame. I believe none of its sets are completely overbearing like Acro+WoW was last generation, but the addition of Hex+WoW as a viable set and the lack of overlap between checks to each set push it over the edge. For example, electrics / RestTalkers are good checks to Acro+WoW but fail to check Hex+WoW sets. Because it's impossible to know what Drifloon is running, it's tough to effectively check while playing and puts heavy strain on teambuilding, forcing players to run at least one check to each set.
Not much to say outside of what others have already said about Gothita. The standard RestTalk set switches in and traps most passive / weak special attackers, effectively strangling diversity in the metagame. Variants of this set allow it to trap more (Charm, 16 SpD) or alleviate problems with Pursuit trapping / Dark type setup bait (TBolt, Substitute). Scarf and Evio sets just add another layer of unpredictability to an already strong mon.
Diglett: No ban
"Classic" Diglett cores from ORAS, barring Mienfoo+Diglett, are no longer viable or do not need Diglett's support for sweeping. Obviously Diglett still has a large list of pokemon it can trap, but lacks the bulk to switch in directly and, as stated above, doesn't really have any amazing partners with U-Turn (Fletchling, Vullaby in ORAS) that force switches to Diglett-weak checks. At the moment, Diglett is manageable because the strain it puts on teambuilding is much less than it did last generation.
Drifloon: Keep it banned
While the burn nerf certainly hurt Drifloon, it's still too strong in the current metagame. I believe none of its sets are completely overbearing like Acro+WoW was last generation, but the addition of Hex+WoW as a viable set and the lack of overlap between checks to each set push it over the edge. For example, electrics / RestTalkers are good checks to Acro+WoW but fail to check Hex+WoW sets. Because it's impossible to know what Drifloon is running, it's tough to effectively check while playing and puts heavy strain on teambuilding, forcing players to run at least one check to each set.
Keep Drifloon Banned - Drifloon is a Pokemon that we banned last generation, which carried over to SuMo when we kept our banlist from ORAS. We banned it because it had the ability to stall out almost every Pokemon in the metagame with a combination of burn damage, Berry Juice, Substitute, and Recycle. This generation brings with it a nerf to burn damage, which makes that old strategy far less viable now. However, Drifloon has not gotten any more manageable despite that, as that one powerful set has given way to multiple, varied sets that are just as powerful combined as old Drifloon was. The original stalling set still destroys every physical attacker that is not Ponyta or Mudbray, since the burn attack drop was left untouched. CM Hex is another set untouched by the burn nerf, since it still gains double power against burned targets. There is also the CM + 3 Attacks set, which has the coverage, typing, and bulk to set up and sweep against many different team compositions. These sets have mostly unique checks, with only a few Pokemon such as Magnemite being able to check all of them. However, with such a short list of reliable checks and counters, it is easy to offer the team support necessary to make Drifloon shine. It is still a huge pain to deal with and should be kept banned.
Do Not Ban Diglett - Diglett has been a controversial Pokemon since near the end of ORAS, but I believe that it is no longer potent enough to warrant a ban. Diglett's main issues in comparison to Gothita are the inability to switch into the Pokemon it wants to trap, as well as not being able to trap all non-Ghost-types which limits its targets. Diglett's frailty means that it can only truly function as a revenge killer, since it requires a few very specific situations to even have a chance to switch in otherwise. This allows you a little bit of counterplay against Diglett, as it cannot immediately switch into its marks and remove them like Gothita can. This means that those Pokemon which Diglett can trap are still useful, and do not have their existence invalidated by Diglett. I still think that trapping in general leads to many undesirable metagame influences, but Diglett does not stand out enough to me to make it more than just really good.
Ban Gothita - Gothita has been a really oppressive force in the metagame ever since the bulky CM set gained traction. It has the ability to switch into nearly every special attacker and wall in the metagame, set up on them, and then destroy them with a boosted Psyshock. From there, it doesn't really matter if Gothita sweeps or not, since it accomplished its primary goal of removing that Pokemon. This is a very powerful strategy, with almost no counterplay. The only way to consistently beat Gothita is to never give it the chance to set up, which is extremely difficult since it can just trap in the Pokemon it wants to face. This has resulted in the severe decline of most defensive walls, as they cannot do anything to stop Gothita from setting up on it. There is also Gothita's Choice Scarf set, which while nowhere near as potent as the CM set, can put in work against offense by trapping frail or weakened threats and knocking them out. Gothita has been a terrible influence on the metagame, and I believe that it should be banned.
Do Not Ban Diglett - Diglett has been a controversial Pokemon since near the end of ORAS, but I believe that it is no longer potent enough to warrant a ban. Diglett's main issues in comparison to Gothita are the inability to switch into the Pokemon it wants to trap, as well as not being able to trap all non-Ghost-types which limits its targets. Diglett's frailty means that it can only truly function as a revenge killer, since it requires a few very specific situations to even have a chance to switch in otherwise. This allows you a little bit of counterplay against Diglett, as it cannot immediately switch into its marks and remove them like Gothita can. This means that those Pokemon which Diglett can trap are still useful, and do not have their existence invalidated by Diglett. I still think that trapping in general leads to many undesirable metagame influences, but Diglett does not stand out enough to me to make it more than just really good.
Ban Gothita - Gothita has been a really oppressive force in the metagame ever since the bulky CM set gained traction. It has the ability to switch into nearly every special attacker and wall in the metagame, set up on them, and then destroy them with a boosted Psyshock. From there, it doesn't really matter if Gothita sweeps or not, since it accomplished its primary goal of removing that Pokemon. This is a very powerful strategy, with almost no counterplay. The only way to consistently beat Gothita is to never give it the chance to set up, which is extremely difficult since it can just trap in the Pokemon it wants to face. This has resulted in the severe decline of most defensive walls, as they cannot do anything to stop Gothita from setting up on it. There is also Gothita's Choice Scarf set, which while nowhere near as potent as the CM set, can put in work against offense by trapping frail or weakened threats and knocking them out. Gothita has been a terrible influence on the metagame, and I believe that it should be banned.
Ban Gothita: Gothita has become too powerful and too restricting to be a part of a healthy meta. It can switch into and beat a massive number of special attackers and singlehandedly forces a large number of pokemon to run otherwise largely inefficient sets or not be seen at all. Not only that, but a strong enough physical attacker to OHKO Gothita has become almost a requirement for every team. To top it all off, it have a great Scarf set that only increases the number of things it can trap and its unpredictableness.
Keep Drifloon banned: I feel Drifloon is also too powerful and too restricting on teambuilding. It has an incredible amount of sets and roles it can fulfill and it excels in each one. Drifloon forces you to include multiple checks for its many sets and then still performs well because all of its checks for one set can lose to a different one. The changes since Drifloon's last suspect have not been enough for it to be a part of a healthy meta, and I feel it should remain banned.
Do not ban Diglett: Diglett is hard to get into play, isn't very strong, and allows many of the most threatening pokemon to setup after trapping anything. I feel Diglett is certainly balanced in actual game play and I don't think it limits teambuilding to an unhealthy extent. It's only gotten much worse since its suspects in ORAS and I don't think it should be banned.
Keep Drifloon banned: I feel Drifloon is also too powerful and too restricting on teambuilding. It has an incredible amount of sets and roles it can fulfill and it excels in each one. Drifloon forces you to include multiple checks for its many sets and then still performs well because all of its checks for one set can lose to a different one. The changes since Drifloon's last suspect have not been enough for it to be a part of a healthy meta, and I feel it should remain banned.
Do not ban Diglett: Diglett is hard to get into play, isn't very strong, and allows many of the most threatening pokemon to setup after trapping anything. I feel Diglett is certainly balanced in actual game play and I don't think it limits teambuilding to an unhealthy extent. It's only gotten much worse since its suspects in ORAS and I don't think it should be banned.
Ban Gothita
In my opinion, this is the easy one. Basically, just restating what I said in my previous posts, the Dark-types in the tier are very powerful and Eviolite Gothita traps both priority Fighting-types while being able to switch in. It's also got the potential to trap any stallish Pokemon without some form of haze/phaze, and most notably, Pokemon like Staryu or Drilbur to stop spinning. It's even customize-able to the extent it can run HP fire and Trap Ferroseed, or even run HP Ground to trap many of the Diglett targets such as Magnemite. I've even been using Scarf Gothita with Sleep Talk, HP Fire, and Psychic so I can switch straight into Foongus. The amount of 50/50s, with basically 0 risk for your opponent, is ridiculous. Consider this situation, you have a Croagunk, they have a Carvahna and Goth. You are now in a ridiculous scenario. You either Vacuum Wave and hope they stay in or you double switch. If you double switch to a non-Pursuiter, you are now 50/50 to die most likely (carvanha will probably 2hko most Pokemon), then you also can't even double switch back since you're trapped. Even if you have hazards up and somehow get Gothita in range of an SBomb or Knock Off KO, eventually all they need to do is sacrifice something to your Croagunk that isn't Carvahna. Like being able to trap almost every special attacker is ridiculous in its own right, but this extra shit like Fighting-types is crazy. I swear if i see one more HP Poison Goth......
Keep Drifloon Banned
This is the real doozy. What it basically comes down to is Drifloon's ability to be a high tier check/counter/pivot/sweeper while also being able to be a top tier spin blocker and hazard abuser in its own right. I think there are definitely ways to shut drifloon down most of the time, but often, you find yourself in a predicament if you guess the set wrong. Magnemite can switch in only to be set up on by CM or knocked off. Chinchou is even easier. Pawniard/darks for the most part get burned or HP fighted by most sets, though sometimes they're needed to get past the occasional Hex/Tbolt sets. Vullaby, Carvahna, Scraggy, for example, generally have a group of counters that ALWAYS counter them. Spritzee and Snubbul, for example, counter Scarf and DD scraggy no matter the moveset. Timburr, Cottonee, and Croagunk will almost always counter Carvahna. Vullaby, though many of the NP Counters lose to phys and vice versa, there are still ways to get around both, such as Onix and Spritzee. The argument that Drifloon doesn't have the same immediate power is valid for Carvahna, but Carvanha can't switch into shit. The other two are pretty weak without their set up moves, I think a 80-130 BP Ghost move from ~14-16 SpA is pretty powerful, so is a 110 BP Acrobatics. While I'm not making the argument, necessarily, that Drifloon is better than these sweepers, I think the issue is that it does it WHILE fulfilling multiple other roles, most notably, spin blocking. This means that, barring defog or good prediction with Staryu, you're going to be stuck with hazards and a wincon that abuses them. Carvanha, Scraggy, Vullaby, and even smashers like Shellder, Omanyte, and Tirtouga can barely enter the game without losing their sweeping potential. Floon has access to 20 HP recovery and infinite ability to go +2 Speed repeatedly. Is this too much? I'm still not sure if this just makes it the best Pokemon in the metagame or legitimately broken. It's power level is nowhere near last generation, in that it can't just 6-0 teams as much because of its ability to stall out things that it doesn't kill, but that's not to say that it can't still do what it's best at.
The real back breaker for me is that it's more like Gligar than Vullaby. Vullaby, as a sweeper, cannot do much mid-early game. However, Gligar can counter most things mid game and still sweep late game. Drifloon is more similar to Gligar in that it can check things, burn things, and spinblock until it cleans late game with its attack. While not as devastating as Gligar, it's got the unpredictability down too. Gligar had access to Baton Pass, so does Floon. Floon, however, can attack from either its special side or its physical side. It's special side can usually bypass counters such as Magnemite, Chinchou, Mudbray, and even Pawniard and Staryu depending on its set. Physical side crushes things like Munchlax, Cottonee, Snivy, and has a general easier time OHKOing stuff off of the bat, not to mention there's no flying immune Pokemon.
Do Not Ban Diglett
Diglett is basically a specific wall breaker with no switch in capacity. I generally prefer using wall breakers that have other utility like Doduo which can switch into Foongus, Cottonee, and sparingly into weaker attackers like Croagunk Drain Punches or Timburr Mach Punches. Diglett's only utility is electric immunity, but all common users have a 50/50 shot to just OHKO it anyway.
I think Diglett is very much set up bait and easy to force out. Diglett has low attack, and if a Pokemon is not frail it will have an opportunity to launch a powerful attack or set up.
Regarding Memento, Diglett has 4mss already - it CAN Memento, but that means it's lacking Sludge Bomb, Sub, Sucker, or Slide, all of which mean it's not entirely as effective at doing its job. Frankly, against an equally skilled player / team builder, Diglett's job is often sometimes regulated to just revenge killing already weakened Pokemon. I think its a bit absurd to say that a situation like: Pokemon A is KOed by Pokemon B, Diglett revenges Pokemon B, then Pokemon C comes out and sets up on Diglett, but Diglett Mementos is a broken scenario. You can't claim that Diglett has done it's job but also claim Pokemon B didn't. Diglett generally needs a sacrifice or support to actually do its job without sacrificing - this is not that easy to do, despite Foo being great at it, there's lots of Pokemon it can't just pivot out of. Pokemon B and C actually win that exchange (albeit in a vacuum).
This is also ignoring the fact that Snivy and Zigzagoon don't give 3 shits about Memento and some smashers can still sweep handily late game with +2 Speed.
Furthermore, when you consider that not all "set up" Pokemon is stat boosting, but also hazard stacking, Memento is useless. I'm pretty sure both Omanyte and Kabuto get two solid turns to set up Rocks then either Spike or Spin respectively. Or just KO it outright after setting up Rocks. What was once its trap bait has now, since the Weak Armor buff, turned the table and used Diglett as set up bait. Dwebble probably gets 3 turns.
However,perhaps if the metagame shifts are significant enough, Diglett may find itself too much to handle.
In my opinion, this is the easy one. Basically, just restating what I said in my previous posts, the Dark-types in the tier are very powerful and Eviolite Gothita traps both priority Fighting-types while being able to switch in. It's also got the potential to trap any stallish Pokemon without some form of haze/phaze, and most notably, Pokemon like Staryu or Drilbur to stop spinning. It's even customize-able to the extent it can run HP fire and Trap Ferroseed, or even run HP Ground to trap many of the Diglett targets such as Magnemite. I've even been using Scarf Gothita with Sleep Talk, HP Fire, and Psychic so I can switch straight into Foongus. The amount of 50/50s, with basically 0 risk for your opponent, is ridiculous. Consider this situation, you have a Croagunk, they have a Carvahna and Goth. You are now in a ridiculous scenario. You either Vacuum Wave and hope they stay in or you double switch. If you double switch to a non-Pursuiter, you are now 50/50 to die most likely (carvanha will probably 2hko most Pokemon), then you also can't even double switch back since you're trapped. Even if you have hazards up and somehow get Gothita in range of an SBomb or Knock Off KO, eventually all they need to do is sacrifice something to your Croagunk that isn't Carvahna. Like being able to trap almost every special attacker is ridiculous in its own right, but this extra shit like Fighting-types is crazy. I swear if i see one more HP Poison Goth......
Keep Drifloon Banned
This is the real doozy. What it basically comes down to is Drifloon's ability to be a high tier check/counter/pivot/sweeper while also being able to be a top tier spin blocker and hazard abuser in its own right. I think there are definitely ways to shut drifloon down most of the time, but often, you find yourself in a predicament if you guess the set wrong. Magnemite can switch in only to be set up on by CM or knocked off. Chinchou is even easier. Pawniard/darks for the most part get burned or HP fighted by most sets, though sometimes they're needed to get past the occasional Hex/Tbolt sets. Vullaby, Carvahna, Scraggy, for example, generally have a group of counters that ALWAYS counter them. Spritzee and Snubbul, for example, counter Scarf and DD scraggy no matter the moveset. Timburr, Cottonee, and Croagunk will almost always counter Carvahna. Vullaby, though many of the NP Counters lose to phys and vice versa, there are still ways to get around both, such as Onix and Spritzee. The argument that Drifloon doesn't have the same immediate power is valid for Carvahna, but Carvanha can't switch into shit. The other two are pretty weak without their set up moves, I think a 80-130 BP Ghost move from ~14-16 SpA is pretty powerful, so is a 110 BP Acrobatics. While I'm not making the argument, necessarily, that Drifloon is better than these sweepers, I think the issue is that it does it WHILE fulfilling multiple other roles, most notably, spin blocking. This means that, barring defog or good prediction with Staryu, you're going to be stuck with hazards and a wincon that abuses them. Carvanha, Scraggy, Vullaby, and even smashers like Shellder, Omanyte, and Tirtouga can barely enter the game without losing their sweeping potential. Floon has access to 20 HP recovery and infinite ability to go +2 Speed repeatedly. Is this too much? I'm still not sure if this just makes it the best Pokemon in the metagame or legitimately broken. It's power level is nowhere near last generation, in that it can't just 6-0 teams as much because of its ability to stall out things that it doesn't kill, but that's not to say that it can't still do what it's best at.
The real back breaker for me is that it's more like Gligar than Vullaby. Vullaby, as a sweeper, cannot do much mid-early game. However, Gligar can counter most things mid game and still sweep late game. Drifloon is more similar to Gligar in that it can check things, burn things, and spinblock until it cleans late game with its attack. While not as devastating as Gligar, it's got the unpredictability down too. Gligar had access to Baton Pass, so does Floon. Floon, however, can attack from either its special side or its physical side. It's special side can usually bypass counters such as Magnemite, Chinchou, Mudbray, and even Pawniard and Staryu depending on its set. Physical side crushes things like Munchlax, Cottonee, Snivy, and has a general easier time OHKOing stuff off of the bat, not to mention there's no flying immune Pokemon.
Do Not Ban Diglett
Diglett is basically a specific wall breaker with no switch in capacity. I generally prefer using wall breakers that have other utility like Doduo which can switch into Foongus, Cottonee, and sparingly into weaker attackers like Croagunk Drain Punches or Timburr Mach Punches. Diglett's only utility is electric immunity, but all common users have a 50/50 shot to just OHKO it anyway.
I think Diglett is very much set up bait and easy to force out. Diglett has low attack, and if a Pokemon is not frail it will have an opportunity to launch a powerful attack or set up.
Regarding Memento, Diglett has 4mss already - it CAN Memento, but that means it's lacking Sludge Bomb, Sub, Sucker, or Slide, all of which mean it's not entirely as effective at doing its job. Frankly, against an equally skilled player / team builder, Diglett's job is often sometimes regulated to just revenge killing already weakened Pokemon. I think its a bit absurd to say that a situation like: Pokemon A is KOed by Pokemon B, Diglett revenges Pokemon B, then Pokemon C comes out and sets up on Diglett, but Diglett Mementos is a broken scenario. You can't claim that Diglett has done it's job but also claim Pokemon B didn't. Diglett generally needs a sacrifice or support to actually do its job without sacrificing - this is not that easy to do, despite Foo being great at it, there's lots of Pokemon it can't just pivot out of. Pokemon B and C actually win that exchange (albeit in a vacuum).
This is also ignoring the fact that Snivy and Zigzagoon don't give 3 shits about Memento and some smashers can still sweep handily late game with +2 Speed.
Furthermore, when you consider that not all "set up" Pokemon is stat boosting, but also hazard stacking, Memento is useless. I'm pretty sure both Omanyte and Kabuto get two solid turns to set up Rocks then either Spike or Spin respectively. Or just KO it outright after setting up Rocks. What was once its trap bait has now, since the Weak Armor buff, turned the table and used Diglett as set up bait. Dwebble probably gets 3 turns.
However,perhaps if the metagame shifts are significant enough, Diglett may find itself too much to handle.
1) Keep Drifloon Banned
Despite the wisp nerf, drifloon remains one of the premier spin blockers in the tier and unlike other options like pumpkaboo it is also a very potent offensive threat. It can run a multitude of sets from stall acro/hex to cm two attack to even knock physical. It is impossible to prep for each combination and its sheer versatility and amazing ability in unburden make it hard to stop.
2) Do Not Ban Diglett
Diglett really isn't broken in this current metagame. I'd be open to visiting it later but right now it finds itself rather weak. It is a wallbreaker that unlike gothita has no capability to actually switch in to things. It's typing is nice as an elec immune but all electric types in the tier carry a move that ohkos it. I just don't see it as the S ranked threat it was in ORAS.
1) Ban Gothita
lol. Gothita is able to switch in with ease into the things it wants to trap (foongus, marinara, spritz) if its running the CM set which has gained traction. It basically forces every team to run a dark to avoid being swept. The viability of the scarf sets and even the evio attacker set is still fantastic to their job trapping staryus, slow fighters and still switching in on foongus. Goth is simply too versatile in its coverage and even cm set move options and traps too much of the meta to be healthy.
Despite the wisp nerf, drifloon remains one of the premier spin blockers in the tier and unlike other options like pumpkaboo it is also a very potent offensive threat. It can run a multitude of sets from stall acro/hex to cm two attack to even knock physical. It is impossible to prep for each combination and its sheer versatility and amazing ability in unburden make it hard to stop.
2) Do Not Ban Diglett
Diglett really isn't broken in this current metagame. I'd be open to visiting it later but right now it finds itself rather weak. It is a wallbreaker that unlike gothita has no capability to actually switch in to things. It's typing is nice as an elec immune but all electric types in the tier carry a move that ohkos it. I just don't see it as the S ranked threat it was in ORAS.
1) Ban Gothita
lol. Gothita is able to switch in with ease into the things it wants to trap (foongus, marinara, spritz) if its running the CM set which has gained traction. It basically forces every team to run a dark to avoid being swept. The viability of the scarf sets and even the evio attacker set is still fantastic to their job trapping staryus, slow fighters and still switching in on foongus. Goth is simply too versatile in its coverage and even cm set move options and traps too much of the meta to be healthy.
Gothita is frankly absurd. It warps the meta around it since it can switch into almost everything it wants to trap, and has an extremely unhealthy effect on the meta. Not to mention it has the ability to remove a variety of otherwise great Pokemon from the match and make them a liability, to such an extent that it makes a number of set up sweepers incredibly hard to manage. It is so incredibly flexible, amazingly effective, and does little to reward good play outside of guess if people will double to their Dark-type and Pursuit you. I think my rmt (it's rad) is proof enough of what it does and how stupid it is.
Ban Gothita.
Diglett is another trapper and is hated because it is good at trapping! And while some find that reason enough to call for its ban, I feel that this is an inadequate reason (I'll note that ADV OU is an interesting though very imperfect comparison for the situation). So far in gen 7, Diglett has proven to be far less effective than last gen. Fletchling's lackluster viability, Vullaby's amazing sweeper sets, and almost every other sweeper in the tier really not needing Diglett has really made it less good. Simply put, most of ORAS's Diglett cores are less effective and generally a waste of a teamslot as of now, and most importantly have had an impressively small effect on the metagame. In fact I would almost go so far to say that this suspect is almost entirely fueled by feelings leftover from ORAS and not the current metagame, simply because Diglett as a mild at best effect on the metagame. A case can be made for Voltturn into Diglett being broken but that leaves me unconvinced as of now, as no teams have appeared with this (Vullaby makes people scared to U-turn). Diglett is decently easy to set up on as well (Vulla mention again, Scraggy, Dwebble hazards, etc), notably hard to get into play and therefore not nearly as reliable. Diglett's pressure on team building is pretty damn manageable too, and while different than that of Pawniard or Magnemite or Sun sweeper Bellsprout, it is of a comparable magnitude. Generally Diglett has proven to be a fine Pokemon in the tier--not infrequently the weak point in sweeper oriented teams and as difficult as ever to get into play.
There are several legitimate grievances to have with Diglett, yet I feel that all of these legitimate issues with Diglett are not strong enough factors for me to vote for Diglett's ban.
Keep Diglett Free.
Drifloon is kinda a shitty Pokemon to talk about. Drifloon is generally hard to deal with, but far from impossible to manage. However Drifloon is absurdly bulky while not even having an Eviolite, which is in itself alarming. Drifloon also has a great movepool--Hex, Wisp, Recycle, Knock Off, Acrobatics, Calm Mind, Thunderbolt, Defog, all the Hidden Powers ofc, Tailwind, Baton Pass, Memento, Thunder Wave, Magic Coat, and Sucker Punch (admittedly the last 3 are just parts of novelty sets I've only considered using but never built with, and after the HPs are rare at best moves!)--leaves Drifloon wish plenty of room to maneuver. What's more of an issue is how most of Drifloon's sets have different counters with minimal overlap, and that almost always the set being run is pretty hard to tell. I've been fooled by a surprise Knock Off more than once, and have lost games where AcroFloon was the set of choice instead of what appeared to be HexFloon. Frequently otherwise skilled matches have devolved to a game of "Guessing the Floon set!" which is rather skill-less and all around a shitty situation. While it may not stall out Pokemon nearly as well, Drifloon still spreads burns like no other and is faster than the rest of the meta half the time. And with all of normals in the tier that are a) frail as hell b) not appreciative of being burnt or c) generally exploitable by very good and splashable Pokemon, e.g. fighting-types [most fall are a combination of a, b, or c] a mono attacking set with Hex is pretty damn viable. Not to mention the only other good Hex switch ins suffer from the same issues. Oh, and I'll mention it again--most of these checks and counters lose to Acrobatics sets!
And with the addition of a quality ghost type into a tier which has few good spinners and a good number of very good spikers, the tier has become very hazard oriented. Most Defog users of the tier are bad too, with Drifloon being one of the best. Even if one claims that Drifloon is not broken, merely just the best Pokemon in the tier, one has to justify such a drastic centralization around hazards spurred by the inclusion of a hard to reliably check, new best Pokemon in the tier. If one has issues with Vullaby than you should really hate Drifloon then.
Ban Drifloon.
Ban Gothita.
Diglett is another trapper and is hated because it is good at trapping! And while some find that reason enough to call for its ban, I feel that this is an inadequate reason (I'll note that ADV OU is an interesting though very imperfect comparison for the situation). So far in gen 7, Diglett has proven to be far less effective than last gen. Fletchling's lackluster viability, Vullaby's amazing sweeper sets, and almost every other sweeper in the tier really not needing Diglett has really made it less good. Simply put, most of ORAS's Diglett cores are less effective and generally a waste of a teamslot as of now, and most importantly have had an impressively small effect on the metagame. In fact I would almost go so far to say that this suspect is almost entirely fueled by feelings leftover from ORAS and not the current metagame, simply because Diglett as a mild at best effect on the metagame. A case can be made for Voltturn into Diglett being broken but that leaves me unconvinced as of now, as no teams have appeared with this (Vullaby makes people scared to U-turn). Diglett is decently easy to set up on as well (Vulla mention again, Scraggy, Dwebble hazards, etc), notably hard to get into play and therefore not nearly as reliable. Diglett's pressure on team building is pretty damn manageable too, and while different than that of Pawniard or Magnemite or Sun sweeper Bellsprout, it is of a comparable magnitude. Generally Diglett has proven to be a fine Pokemon in the tier--not infrequently the weak point in sweeper oriented teams and as difficult as ever to get into play.
There are several legitimate grievances to have with Diglett, yet I feel that all of these legitimate issues with Diglett are not strong enough factors for me to vote for Diglett's ban.
Keep Diglett Free.
Drifloon is kinda a shitty Pokemon to talk about. Drifloon is generally hard to deal with, but far from impossible to manage. However Drifloon is absurdly bulky while not even having an Eviolite, which is in itself alarming. Drifloon also has a great movepool--Hex, Wisp, Recycle, Knock Off, Acrobatics, Calm Mind, Thunderbolt, Defog, all the Hidden Powers ofc, Tailwind, Baton Pass, Memento, Thunder Wave, Magic Coat, and Sucker Punch (admittedly the last 3 are just parts of novelty sets I've only considered using but never built with, and after the HPs are rare at best moves!)--leaves Drifloon wish plenty of room to maneuver. What's more of an issue is how most of Drifloon's sets have different counters with minimal overlap, and that almost always the set being run is pretty hard to tell. I've been fooled by a surprise Knock Off more than once, and have lost games where AcroFloon was the set of choice instead of what appeared to be HexFloon. Frequently otherwise skilled matches have devolved to a game of "Guessing the Floon set!" which is rather skill-less and all around a shitty situation. While it may not stall out Pokemon nearly as well, Drifloon still spreads burns like no other and is faster than the rest of the meta half the time. And with all of normals in the tier that are a) frail as hell b) not appreciative of being burnt or c) generally exploitable by very good and splashable Pokemon, e.g. fighting-types [most fall are a combination of a, b, or c] a mono attacking set with Hex is pretty damn viable. Not to mention the only other good Hex switch ins suffer from the same issues. Oh, and I'll mention it again--most of these checks and counters lose to Acrobatics sets!
And with the addition of a quality ghost type into a tier which has few good spinners and a good number of very good spikers, the tier has become very hazard oriented. Most Defog users of the tier are bad too, with Drifloon being one of the best. Even if one claims that Drifloon is not broken, merely just the best Pokemon in the tier, one has to justify such a drastic centralization around hazards spurred by the inclusion of a hard to reliably check, new best Pokemon in the tier. If one has issues with Vullaby than you should really hate Drifloon then.
Ban Drifloon.
ban diglett
ban gothita
ban drifloon
ban gothita
ban drifloon
Ban Drifloon
Ban Gothita
Do Not Ban Diglett
Ban Gothita
Do Not Ban Diglett
Ban Drifloon
Ban Gothita
Do Not Ban Diglett
Ban Gothita
Do Not Ban Diglett
Unban Drifloon
Ban Gothita
Do Not Ban Diglett
Ban Gothita
Do Not Ban Diglett
Drifloon Ban: Quote, Celestavian, OP, Heysup, Fiend, Mambo, Star, fatty, zf, sken, shrug
Drifloon No Ban: macle, Levi
Diglett Ban: macle, Mambo
Diglett No Ban: Quote, Celestavian, OP, Heysup, Fiend, Levi, Star, fatty, zf, sken, shrug
Gothita Ban: Quote, Celestavian, macle, OP, Heysup, Fiend, Mambo, Levi, Star, fatty, zf, sken, Shrug
Gothita No Ban:
Thank you to the council for their cooperation, and to everyone that participated in the discussion.
- Status