Grass Pelt and x1.5 Inconsistencies

[Someoneelse]

Please read through Grass Pelt discussion on page 1 of Feedback thread to get some background.

Whilst most other x1.5 abilities have been adjusted to give a +3 modifier, there are some abilities that have not had this modification yet. Amongst these is Grass Pelt which at a glance appears more similar to Fur Coat, so it may need a different modifier. Questions to discuss include:

• Should Grass Pelt's modifier be the same as Fur Coat, or are they different enough to be implemented differently? Being triggered by Grassy Terrain, should this have any relevance to its implementation?
• Is there any objection to increasing the other remaining x1.5 abilities to have +3 modifiers? These include Marvel Scale, Minus, Plus, and Sniper.

Proposed slate from Feedback (credit to Complications):

• Increase the damage reduction by 3 BAP to fall in line with other 50% modifiers such as Swarm
• Increase the damage reduction to 5 to fall in line with Fur Coat, a similar ability
• Change the value from damage reduction to a 1.5x increase to the Pokemon's armor, rounded up, to fall in line with items such as Choice Specs and Choice Band

I'll try to track discussion in the OP. Fire away!

 

[ZhengTann]

Would like to petition that Sandstorm be looked into as well in comparison with other weathers, while fully aware of the fact that there's a "conflict of interest" flag waving above my head.

I'll try to trawl through the Abilities DAT during the weekend and make a full comprehensive list of what is inconsistent.

I'm here to present: Marvel Scale.

Veekun description: Increases Defense to 1.5× with a major status ailment.

ASB DAT: This Pokemon's coat shimmers when afflicted with a status condition, reducing the Base Attack Power of incoming physical attacks by two (2).

Technician and Plus/Minus are not strictly the same as their in-cartridge counterparts, but in-ASB they have unique special interactions (Technician with multi-hit moves and energy cost, Plus/Minus with each other) and have been long without any dissent, so I do not think Technician, Plus, and Minus need to be up-scaled. Although come to think of it, Houndoominite exist.... If we can prove that Mega-Houndoom with default +6 BAP to Fire attacks is not overtuned, then I wouldn't oppose up-scaling Plus or Minus. I'll put some calcs soon(TM).

Flower Gift, Flare Boost, Toxic Boost, Guts are relevant to Marvel Scale and Grass Pelt though. The first four Abilities mentioned currently give +/- 3 BAP to the corresponding offensive/defensive spectrum. Again, there's hardly any vocal outcry over them, so I'm erring on caution to leave them as is. In the same train of thought, I'm supporting the notion to scale up Marvel Scale and Grass Pelt from -2 BAP to -3 BAP. EDIT: Oh and Sniper too. Fur Coat is a unique Ability of itself (I can't think of any other Ability that modifies the final damage in-cartridge), and Choice items have their own Choice-locked drawbacks that make them very difficult in-ASB, so the other two options seemed inconsistent with other similar Abilities to hold as much appeal as the +/- 3 BAP option.

We can also add Secret Sword, Psyshock and Psystrike into the corresponding spectrum as a custom list to fall in line with cartridge game design, I guess.

* * *​

Now onto weathers. Sun and Rain in-game adds *1.5 or /1.5 modifiers to final damage in-cartridge, while in-ASB they grant +/- 3 BAP too. Hail and Sand has a -2 BAP residual damage that is consistent with effects like Burn and non-Toxic Poison. Hail has a weird interaction with Blizzard that is likely an archaic relic of game design, although I'm not personally experienced with it to say if it is OP. There's also ASB's very own Mist weather, which seems rarely used and talked about so I'm not sure if it's imbalanced. So I don't think an overhaul to the whole weather mechanic is really necessary.

But as a Rock Gym leader, I will insert the whole kebab into my esophagus and ask to scale Sandstorm to give -3 BAP to Special attacks against Rock-types instead of current +2. Reasons include niche viability, opportunity cost, consistency with other similar mechanics such as Marvel Scale and Swarm and Guts, and Rain and Sun.

* * *​

Finally there's Fur Coat and Fluffy but if there's more than 5 likes on this post I'll report on them, since their functional descriptions are rather unique on their own. I'll also merge my posts if this discussion extends itself - right now the double-posting is to bring this issue back into spotlight.

 

[FMD]

Supporting boosting Marvel Scale, Grass Pelt, Sniper, and Plus/Minus to +3. The interaction of Plus/Minus on a single Pokemon is an ASB invention, so we can easily make the interaction less-powerful when coming from a single Pokemon if Klinklang proves to be too much of a threat.
Agreeing that Technician should remain the same.

Also supporting boosting Rock's effect in sandstorms to fall in-line with the others.
The bypassing P/E is indeed a relic. It was a glitch in Diamond/Pearl that was fixed in HGSS and has stayed fixed from Platinum to the present. I pointed this out to IAR a couple of wees ago and he said he edited it out, but he must have done it only on Thunder/Blizzard/Hurricane and forgotten to change Hail/Rain Dance. I really don't think this needs to be discussed here and can be corrected straight away, not to mention that it is off-topic to this thread.

ZhengTann , could you please not ask for likes in return for a service? It makes it hard to tell whether there is actual support for your statements or if people just want you to comment on Fur Coat and Fluffy.

And on the topic of Fluffy, I feel that -5 would still be the most-appropriate modifier for the contact moves, making it fall in line with Fluffy (and to a lesser-extent, Adaptability). As far as the Fire modifier goes, however, I am torn between -5 BAP and increasing the effectiveness. The former would make it cancel out on contact Fire moves, but the latter seems more-appropriate overall. We could always make it -5 BAP contact and weak to Fire with a special interaction that a contact-based Fire move is unaffected by the ability, but that feels a bit contrived.

 

[JJayyFeather]

Yay people finally stopped forgetting about Sniper :3

Agreeing with everything FMD except for Grass Pelt and Fluffy stuff.

Grass Pelt
This is a very minor difference from what you are all saying, but it helps to keep down on wording while maintaining the same intention. In-game the defense stat is boosted by x1.5, not necessarily taking 67% of Physical attacks, which means we need to make sure the moves Zt named are included. The shortest method of ensuring this would be simply to change the wording to "This Pokemon thrives on environments with Grass Arena type or under the Grassy Terrain effect, increasing its Defense rank by two (2) while this is the case." +2 Ranks is still a -3 BAP regarding taking attacks, but accounts for those Special attacks that get through.

Fluffy
I know we like consistency and all, but Bewear is actually a rather solid mon, built in with a lot of bulk, even before Fluffy. Given that this is the only mon with this ability currently, I don't like the idea of retuning the ability with an eye for consistency when it runs to risk of being far too good on its sole user. Bewear has 120/3/3 bulk before Fluffy (assuming +SpD), which is a lot of bulk. Add Fluffy to that and it effectively tanks everything that is neutral, not Fire-typed, and Physical with relative ease. Not to mention that Fluffy helps it a lot against Draining Kiss, which is also a Contact move. Bewear already has a lot to work with, and we don't need to give it more unless it proves itself not to be good enough. For the record, this means it needs to be used and shown to not be bulky enough against the appropriate threat type, not just unused because people don't want to get it, or don't like it.

 

[ZhengTann]

Reviving 4. (sorry I'm about to go to bed, Council please slate this, this shouldn't be too difficult I hope)

 

[Maxim]

Tentative voting slate: Will go to voting in approximately 24 hours

Q1: What should Grass Pelt's Effect be?
A) Increase the damage reduction to 3 BAP to fall in line with other 50% modifiers such as Swarm
B) Increase the damage reduction to 5 to fall in line with Fur Coat, a similar ability
C) Change the value from damage reduction to a 1.5x increase to the Pokemon's armor, rounded up, to fall in line with items such as Choice Specs and Choice Band
D) Keep as is (2 BAP reduction)

Q2: What should Marvel Scale's Effect be?
A) Increase the damage reduction to 3 BAP
B) Keep as is (2 BAP)
C) Back to drawing board

Q3: What should Sniper's Effect be?
A) Increase the damage bonus to 3 BAP on a crit (6 BAP total)
B) Keep as is (+2 BAP on a crit, 5 BAP total)
C) Back to drawing board

Q4: What should Plus/Minus's Effect be?
A) Increase the damage bonus to 3 BAP when the other is present
B) Keep as is (2 BAP)
C) Back to drawing board

Q5: What should Sandstorm's Damage Reduction be?
A) Increase it to a 3 BAP reduction
B) Keep it as a 2 BAP reduction