Pokémon Greninja

[Hypercut]

GRENINJA DOES NOT LEARN RAPID SPIN!

Greninja
​

Pokedex Number - #658
Type(s) - Water / Dark
Base Stats: 72 HP / 95 Atk / 67 Def / 103 SAtk / 71 SDef / 122 Spd

Abilities

Ability 1 - Torrent

When HP is below 1/3rd, Water’s power increases to 1.5 times.

Hidden Ability - Protean

Changes the Pokémon's type to the type of the move it just used.

- Level up moves

Start: Pound
Start: Growl
Start: Bubble
Level 8: Quick Attack
Level 10: Lick
Level 14: Water Pulse
Level 20: Smokescreen
Level 23: Round
Level 28: Fling
Level 33: Smack Down
Level 36: Water Shuriken
Level 43: Substitute
Level 49: Extrasensory
Level 52: Double Team
Level 56: Haze
Level 60: Hydro Pump
Level 70: Night Slash

- TMs and HMs compatibility

TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM23 Smack Down
TM27 Return
TM28 Dig
TM32 Double Team
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM55 Scald
TM56 Fling
TM62 Acrobatics
TM68 Giga Impact
TM80 Rock Slide
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM94 Rock Smash
TM97 Dark Pulse
TM98 Power-Up Punch
TM100 Confide
HM01 Cut
HM03 Surf
HM04 Strength
HM05 Waterfall

- Move Tutor

Night Slash
Role Play
Mat Block
Shadow Sneak
Spikes
Feint Attack

- Egg Moves

Toxic Spikes
Camouflage
Water Sport

(I'll add more when we learn more)

- New moves
Water Shuriken
Mat Block

Greninja is a very good Pokèmon. Aside from its low defenses, making it very vulnerable to both physical and special moves, He can count on a speed that reaches about 372, outspeeding Pokèmon such as Starmie, the premier Spinner of OU. He can also run U-Turn, which combined with its speed, it can be very difficult to outspeed before he uses it.


Potential Movesets

Special Ninja

Greninja@ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty / Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn / Hidden Power Fire

Set description:

This is a full-on attacking set. Hydro Pump is a solid Water-type STAB attack, and despite the slight nerf is still pretty deadly. Ice Beam is necessary in order to take out pesky Grass- and Dragon-types. The third moveslot features Dark Pulse, which is useful both as a reliable secondary STAB attack and to give Starmie a world of pain. Not to mention it does some solid damage to Tentacruel. For the final moveslot, U-turn can be used for momentum-grabbing purposes and complements Greninja's blazing Speed. Alternatively, Hidden Power Fire can be used,and is helpful primarily for Pokemon who are 4x weak to it, such as Scizor and Ferrothorn; however, as it has low Base Power and would not do much to Pokemon who only are only 2x weak to it, you are better of firing off a Hydro Pump in those situations. Despite the Life Orb boost, Greninja still is in need of entry hazard support, which is vital for securing numerous OHKOs and 2HKOs.</p>

This Greninja in particular is generally most effective mid-game to late-game and is focused on putting pressure on the opposing team by spamming its Protean-made STAB attacks. When faced with something you cannot defeat, simply take Greninja's blazing speed to your advantage anD U-turn out of there. As it can act as a momentum grabber with U-turn, it is key to have other Pokemon which can take advantage of the Pokemon it lures in. While Grass Knot may not see much use on Greninja, it is the only way in which Greninja can dispose of Gyarados with ease, landing a 2HKO on Gyarados while outright OHKOing Mega Gyarados.

Some Damage Calculations.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 176 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 393-463 (110.7 - 130.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 328-385 (101.23 - 118.82%) -- guaranteed OHKO THROUGH Multiscale
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 299-354 (99.33 - 117.6%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 424-502 (100.95 - 119.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 491-580 (127.86 - 151.04%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 827-972 (234.94 - 276.13%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hidden Power Fire vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 281-330 (85.93 - 100.91%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 520-614 (151.6 - 179%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 328-390 (93.18 - 110.79%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also 0 Atk Life Orb Starmie U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 218-257 (83.52 - 98.46%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 195-229 (48.26 - 56.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not even max/max+ TTar in Sand can switch in and avoid the 2HKO.


Checks & Counters:

Scarfed Pokèmon such as Latios can easily kill him, or Priority user such as Breloom or Lucario.

Special wall can shut down this set.

Fairy Pokèmon can easily tease him, his only option is to use U-turn (if a Fairy-type pokemon isn't Scarfed).

Jellicent: This Pokèmon can fullcounter this Greninja's set. Hydro Pump recover Jellicent's HP, and U-turn is the only solution, but the incoming Pokèmon will take Will-o-Wisp or Toxic.

Spikes Danger

Greninja @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Protean / Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Dark Pulse / Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Fire
This set allows Greninja to support its team, while still being a potent force to be reckoned with, by setting up a layer or two of Spikes, made easier thanks to its high base Speed. Power versus accuracy is what determines your choice for moveslot two. Dark Pulse, despite being resisted by Fairy-types, now has the added benefit of not being resisted by Steel-types, and cleanly finishes off Starmie as well as denting Tentacruel, who otherwise walls you to hell and back. Alternatively, Ice Beam stops Dragonite and company cold, literally. It also allows for the 2HKO on Togekiss after Stealth Rock damage in addition to nailing Crobat. Finally, Hidden Power Fire can be used to hit those Steel-types that are 4x weak to Fire-type attacks. This set is designed to be used early on in the game and put a considerable amount of pressure on the opponent from the get-go.

As Greninja sports a better Special Defense stat compared to its Defense stat, it is only natural to run a nature that would not lower the former. A Timid nature is used to ensure no drops in either defensive stat. Life Orb can be used for maximum damage output, or a Focus Sash can be used to ensure more layers of Spikes being set up. This set ensures that the Spikes that are set up are not removed while Greninja is on the field, as Greninja can OHKO most Rapid Spinners, as well as Scizor / Mega Scizor, who can use Defog.

An alternative set consisting of Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Hydro Pump (or Surf) and Taunt can be utilized as Greninja is arguably the best dual Spiker in the game, because of its high Speed, access to Taunt, and Torrent ability, which boosts its Water-type move once Focus Sash has been activated. Taking advantage of Team Preview to lay the appropriate hazard is key, such as Spikes if your sweeper is walled by their Ferrothorn, or Toxic Spikes if it's walled by their Blissey.

Personal Opinion of the pokemon and conclusion (roughly one paragraph)

Scarfed Fairy-type Pokèmons are terrible for him, but if they're not Scarfed, a good Volturn-Trap core in a team can help him.
Protean Greninja is a very powerful threat in my opinion. He can create mindgames with HP Ghost/Fairy, in order to take minimum damage from Fight moves.

 

[Kejmur]

Hm, So Greninja can run this set better?

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

With this set we can smash Jellicent (2hko) and we can Spin. The only thing I don't like is that it doesn't have a instant recovery move for the recoil of the orb, except rest, but it's not instant. We have to wait 6th gen metagame and his evolution, but i think that this 'mon will have a role in OU.

I looked for Ghosts which somewhat handle Dark Pulse from Greninja and only found Max HP/Max SpD Positive Spiritomb, which avoid with solid comfort 2HKO from Dark Pulse (32.57% - 38.49%), but problem is that he has nothing outside of HP Fighting to hit it for SE damage, which is really weak, especially in Gen 6. And... Hydropump 2HKO 62,92% of time back as well (43.75% - 51.64%)... so yeah, this is not good looking for Ghosts. I need to say it starts to look better and better for our ninja frog (wait.. it also learn Spikes ?! Wow) and I would say Greninja so far looks like a really good OU Pokemon. I like ;).

 

[Jaroda]

Although it can potentially be outclassed by support variants, Greninja has the right speed and ability to abuse a Sub+Petay/Leichi set.

Greninja@Petaya Berry
Torrent
Timid/Naive/HAsty 4 HP/ 252 SpA / 252 Spd
~ Surf/Hydro Pump
~ Ice Beam
~ Substitute
~ Dark Pulse/Acrobatics/Shadow Sneak

Greninja@Leichi Berry
Torrent
Jolly/Naive/Hasty 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
~ Waterfall/Water Shuriken
~ Substitute
~ Acrobatics
~ Return/???

120 base speed is a fantastic tier to abuse this kind of set. The prevalence of Mach Punch however and scarfs means this is best used late game. But if Swift Swim remains illegal with Drizzle then he could really clean up with STAB + Rain + Torrent + Berry bonuses. This gives a prime opportunity to use the 110 BP Acrobatics to ruin Bug, Grass and Fighting types intending to ruin your fun. Im not familiar enough with enough of the new moves or options to know the optimum combination atm but it has all the potential to be competitively dangerous.

 

[Hypercut]

If you want to use a Berry Set (Petaya, Liechi or similar stuff), w/ Substitute obviously, you have to eliminate things such as Breloom, Lucario, CB or DD Nite (priority users) and Scarfers, because this frog is easily revengekilled due to defenses. Of course the SubPetaya for example is a lategame set, when the opponent team is weak, so you can clean all. Another problem is that weathers are nerfed to 5 turns (10 if they hold damp rock, heat rock and similar), and you have to hold Politoed for the lategame.

Uh Serebii, i'd be there before, but i hadn't seen well of course.
Yeah, it may change.
However, i'm going to edit first post with Hidden ability. Any idea for sets?
I was making this:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Not sure if the type of the Pokèmon changes into Bug when i use U-turn. If change, Greninja can OHKO Starmie maybe..

Jaroda Yes, you have the sub, and of course you can OHKO one of those Pokèmon (even more if they're weakened by hazards/previously attacks), but if the Sub is wrecked by a move when you OHKO that Pokèmon with +1 SAtk, and the opponent has already a Scarf/Prioritier weakened, you have to switch to save the frog.
Petaya Sweeper is a remake of SubAgilityPetaya Empoleon of DPP, obviously has potential, and obviously you can use it in lategame. He don't have Agility, ok, so you can run Sub + 3 atks (I mean Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Hp Fire). 4th move syndrome, if you want to take another move as you have rightly said "It's most dependent on the user", you have to lose the advantages of running Hp Fire.

 

[Jaroda]

Even if you have to switch out to save him, being mixed with a viable Acrobatics in Torrent range with that speed is still dangerous, even without a Berry boost (albeit ideal). Plus, he still has two priority attacks of his own if he really needs to outspeed and finish off a priority user. And what is Hidden Power's new BP now? 60?

HP Fire vs Scizor = 60 x 2 x 2 = 240
HP Fire vs Scizor in Rain = 60 x 2 x 2 x .5 = 120
Surf vs Scizor = 95 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 213.75
Surf vs Scizor in Rain = 95 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 320.63
Hydro Pump vs Scizor = 120 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 270
Hydro Pump vs Scizor in Rain = 120 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 405

As you can see HP Fire is not as mandatory with all these boosts, none of which factor in the berry as is. In Rain you are far better off sticking to water moves. With Rain even against Ferrothorn Surf would be stronger. HP Fire only has the advantage outside of Rain vs Surf by <30 BP, Hydro Pump will still outclass it. This is of course the purpose of wanting to run this set in the first place, you can simply overpower coverage options. While a viable option I would hesitate to say HP Fire is mandatory. There's potential here, and that's as far as I want to take it. Depending on the metagame the set could easily be obsolete when compared to Rapid Spin usage.

 

[yoh102]

you are not considering hydro pump's and surf's nerfs in those calcs
Surf vs Scizor = 90 x 1.5 . 1.5 ~= 200
Hydro pump vs Scizor = 110 x 1.5 x 1.5 ~= 250

just a nitpick

 

[Hypercut]

Obviously in Rain you use Hydro Pump instead of HP Fire on Scizor (more BP + STAB + Rain), but if you haven't HP Fire in slot, you can't hard hit Ferrothorn (even if you have Protean obv, but i think that HP Fire is halved in Rain, or i wrong?)
However, Mixed set? Interesting. How would you do?

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Acrobatics
- Dark Pulse / Hidden Power [Fire]

This?

 

[Othesemo]

Obviously in Rain you use Hydro Pump instead of HP Fire on Scizor (more BP + STAB + Rain), but if you haven't HP Fire in slot, you can't hard hit Ferrothorn (even if you have Protean obv, but i think that HP Fire is halved in Rain, or i wrong?)
However, Mixed set? Interesting. How would you do?

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Acrobatics
- Dark Pulse / Hidden Power [Fire]

This?

Acrobatics should probably be used alongside a Flying Gem, or possibly a pinch berry. With Life Orb, it's weaker than HP Flying.

 

[TEzeon]

This is possibly the best starter Pokemon in the game, up there with Blaziken. He's a sweeper and a utility all in one, and Protean allows him to beat whatever he may need to.

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 120 Atk / 136 SpA / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power Fairy / Ice Beam
- Power-Up Punch
- Water Shuriken

The goal with this set is to take full advantage of Protean and forgo some of the utility moves like U-turn, Rapid Spin and Spikes. Bring him in, use a move like Hidden Power Fairy to change your type into something that would easily beat a potential switch in, and then play accordingly. Ice and Fairy type are weak to Steel, so opponents may try to ruin your day with Bullet Punch. That's where Water Shuriken comes in, as it can go first and promptly change you back to a Water type so you gain Steel resistance. It also isn't bad as a general priority attack that can finished off weakened opponents. Power-Up Punch would be best if Ferrothorn is giving you issues, as Greninja can become a Fighting type, deal damage, and gain an attack boost all in one go. Power-Up Punch also constantly increases the threat of Water Shuriken as you stack boosts, giving you a better chance at a sweep if your opponent cannot answer it in time. Switching between Water and Fairy type can cause some headaches, as the two types are very synergistic. I can't really say for sure if this is the right combination of moves just yet as I have not had the chance to test Greninja, but the idea is there and I think something similar could be a serious challenge to overcome.

All in all, this is an awesome Pokemon who I'd be surprised to see in any tier lower than OU.

 

[Hypercut]

At the beginning, I was in doubt between LO and Flying Gem, because i was thinking that Mixed set should have always fire power, so I put LO, but a Flying Gem in order to boost Acrobatics isn't bad too.

TEzeon Unfortunately LO + Iron Barbs deal to Greninja some issues hmm. Yes, with Power-Up Punch you have a free +1 in Atk and gain Fight Type, but in order to obtain it, you have to necessarily decrease your HP.
However, Fairy + Water it's a great combo, but you can't stand on field when for example a Scizor use Bullet Punch, just because of his defenses.

 

[VCrowe]

At the beginning, I was in doubt between LO and Flying Gem, because i was thinking that Mixed set should have always fire power, so I put LO, but a Flying Gem in order to boost Acrobatics isn't bad too.

TEzeon Unfortunately LO + Iron Barbs deal to Greninja some issues hmm. Yes, with Power-Up Punch you have a free +1 in Atk and gain Fight Type, but in order to obtain it, you have to necessarily decrease your HP.
However, Fairy + Water it's a great combo, but you can't stand on field when for example a Scizor use Bullet Punch, just because of his defenses.

Don't know about the rest of those moves, but Greninja can't learn Calm Mind.

 

[wiithepeople]

A downright scary fact is Greninja's access to Spikes, which makes Greninja the third fastest user of the move behind Deoxys-S and Accelgor, respectively, but with much better defenses and offenses than either one, Greninja can function much better in performing a Spike role.

 

[Soda]

Protean is confirmed to change the user's type BEFORE the move deals damage, effectively giving STAB on everything.
This is incredible and makes Greninja much harder to counter.
STAB HP Fire can possibly OHKO Ferrothorn while STAB Ice beam mauls dragons and grass types.
And if you fear priority, just use Water Shuriken to change it into a water type before the opponent can attack.

Are you serious? Wow. That's pretty boss lol. The Hidden Power nerf means nothing to Greninja then! It's U-Turns will be much stronger too, etc. It doesn't have the best special movepool but getting STAB on every single coverage movepool is genuinely insane.

 

[ApathyandToast]

Greninja cannot learn Rapid Spin

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/greninja.3489680/#post-4885682

 

[Wobblebuns]

So far, Greninja looks like a promising Pokemon.

Given its amazing ability in Protean in tandem with a 120 base speed stat, Greninja will be quite tricky to check or counter. If I understand it correctly, the Pokemon's typing will change depending on what move it WILL use. So, this means the Ninja Frog can abuse a fairly decent STAB coverage while simultaneously shielding it from otherwise SE barrages from its opposing Pokemon. Also with his given learnsets, Greninja can fulfill a variety of roles -and effectively at that given his ability and typing- whether be it Choice, Hazard Layer, LO attacker, Rapid Spinner and heck, even a combination of those mentioned. I can see the Rapid Spinner sets garnering noticeable usage; hello, spinblocking will be harder with him roaming around in the metagame solely for his offensive prowess and typing.

I guess the downside for Greninja for me are subpar defenses, mediocre offenses, and a lack of recovery move to make use of his ability to its fullest potential. This however is somehow alleviated with good HP base stat, some high BP moves and decent STAB coverage, and an overall great utility that is too hard to pass up. I think he'll definitely be a great asset to balanced/Offensive/HO teams. Greninja can dish out damage and dent things, spin hazards and lay hazards too. These can open up sweeping opportunities for his teammates or possibly create a sweep for himself depending on the moveset used.

Edit:

Greninja cannot learn Rapid Spin

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/greninja.3489680/#post-4885682

Is it really?! LIES! My heart...I can't even deal.

Oh well, he still has Spikes and other interesting moves going on for it. But still, it wouldn't be the same without Rapid Spin.

There goes my premiere Rapid Spinner though. :c

 

[ApathyandToast]

Itachi: Any reason you prefer going Hasty on your sets, as opposed to Timid?

 

[Bribery]

Well then, Starmie's position as the best offensive spinner is safe. I think Greninja still has a lot of potential for OU. Personally, I would run an offensive Spiker set on a HO team. Something like:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- U-Turn / Shadow Ball / Hidden Power [Fire]

It's fast speed and ability to force switches will allow it to set up Spikes easily. HP Fire helps deal with Ferrothorn and Forretress while U-Turn is great for scouting. Shadow Ball works well with Protean since it changes Greninja to a Ghost type, allowing it to double as a spin blocker. Hasty or Naive nature could work with U-Turn if you don't want the drop in ATK.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

Itachi: Any reason you prefer going Hasty on your sets, as opposed to Timid?

I will wager so U-turn can hit harder. It's what I use it for, at least.

 

[alexwolf]

People don't lose hope, i am sure that Protean Greninja will not disappoint. 100 SpA is a lot after all, when you get STAB on every move and when coupled with this sexy Speed stat. The only Pokemon that will be able to avoid the 2HKO from Greninja are those that are not weak to any of its moves and the blobs. A moveset of Hydro Pump / Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire can 2HKO everything in 5th gen's OU aside from Rotom-W, Tentacruel, and Blissey! Not only this, but it has the potential to 2HKO Blissey with a mixed set (Power Up Punch), or use Spikes in the last slot to support its team or itself later in the game! Greninja hasn't said his last word yet...

 

[Upstart]

Greninja @ leftovers
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Hydro Pump / Surf / Dark Pulse
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire] / U-Turn / Taunt

Although no rapid spin is a disappointment, people seem to not realize that Greninja is both a fast spiker and a spin blocker thanks to his ability. He shadow ball on the rapid spin and proceed to mess with the spinners while maintaining an offensive presence.

 

[Hypercut]

ApathyandToast Thanks for the screen proof, I couldn't have access to the pictures because in game I chose Bulbasaur. Ok, so Rapid Spin was only an hope.
However, I prefer Hasty instead of Timid because i don't want to lose Atk power, and since Protean give me STAB before I deal damage, it's a very dangerous thing, makes Greninja a great threat!

alexwolf I prefer Greninja with Mixed set, because he can deal more damage and has a more extensive coverage.

Edited 1st post

 

[Molk]

Man Greninja looks really good from what i've seen of it so far (No Nasty Plot as far as we know kinda sucks though), pretty solid stats all around including an absolutely amazing Speed stat, access to important moves such as Spikes and U-turn. 90/100ish base offensive stats aren't super amazing on paper, but that great Speed stat and Protean basically giving it STAB on everything make up for that quite a bit imo. Something else that should be noted is that changing type to match moves doesn't just give Greninja STAB on everything, but it also means that Greninja can play mindgames with its opponent with a combination of its High Speed stat and Protean, changing its type to get the advantage on predicted moves/switches and forcing the opponent to try and predict what type it'll make itself to take it out easily. I'm really excited to see how Greninja performs in the x/y metagame. Btw does anyone know if Protean works with support moves or just attacking moves? Just wondering.

 

[ApathyandToast]

Btw does anyone know if Protean works with support moves or just attacking moves? Just wondering.

Non-damaging moves will also trigger Protean - the ones in Safari have smokescreen which do this. I assume Spikes will behave the same.

 

[SirPainsalot]

Man Greninja looks really good from what i've seen of it so far (No Nasty Plot as far as we know kinda sucks though)

I still don't get it. It seems to me like classic GameFreak troll logic.
An assassin (ninja) dark type frog doesn't get Nasty Plot, but a dopey pokemon like Chatot gets it?
Hell even Infernape, another starter, gets it. I just don't get it.

Anyway... I could see Greninja as a nice specs user with that great speed of his and decent special attack. Taunt and Spikes give it some options for utility as well, though it obviously won't be as great as when he got Rapid Spin.

 

[TaBuu]

**Is it confirmed if Greninja gets access to at least Work Up | Bulk Up | Calm Mind ?
- - - -
#creativitytime
"Ninjutsu : Type Mimicry!"
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability : Protean
Nature : Naive (+Spe, -SDef)
EV Spread : 100 Atk / 156 SAtk / 252 Spe
Moveset : Hydro Pump | Dark Pulse | U-Turn | Ice Beam

Maximum Speed investment with positive nature in order to maintain as much speed as possible. However as the metagame becomes more defined and threats become evident, the Speed can be adjusted accordingly and placed into SAtk.
100 Attack EVs will OHKO Specially Defensive Celebi while OHKOing Latios after Stealth Rock, 56.25% of the time.
The rest is placed into Special Attack.

Hydro Pump is a powerful STAB move despite it being nerfed to Base 115.

• 156 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 242-285 (74 - 87.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 156 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 252-299 (73.68 - 87.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dark Pulse covers Pokemon such as Jellicent and Slowbro.

• 156 SpA Life Orb (custom) Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 250-296 (62.03 - 73.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 156 SpA Life Orb (custom) Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 315-374 (79.94 - 94.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

U-Turn grabs and preserves offensive momentum and so it's critical for Greninja to carry.

• 100 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 406-484 (100.49 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 100 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 242-289 (80.39 - 96.01%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Ice Beam nails Dragon, Ground, Grass and Flying Type Pokemon hard and provides great overall coverage

• 156 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 296-351 (91.35 - 108.33%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
• 156 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss: 250-296 (57.87 - 68.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO