GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V

Gold / Silver / Crystal In-Game Tier List
Old Tier List: N/A

Old Discussions: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-in-game-tier-list-mk-iv.3665763/ (Passerby), https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-in-game-tier-list.3525167/ (Colonel M), https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-again-after-i-figure-some-stuff-out.3486619/ (Ender), https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-in-game-tiers.3472745/ (Redew)

Approval Status: Approved by DHR-107

Hello all! Welcome to the GSC In Game Tier List. With HGSS finished, I decided to round out Johto for my last tier list as I have done two and they take a good effort to see completion. From the old lists, GSC needs a drastic update. Colonel M gave it a shot and recently, Random Passerby attempted as well. I plan to make sure that GSC gets its update on way or another. With all that said, let’s get this underway.

What is an In-Game Tier List?

In-game tier lists rank Pokemon based on their viability and usefulness throughout an entire playthrough of either game. Regarding GSC, this means from New Bark Town to the moment you beat Lance at the League. The tester can continue into Kanto and fight Red, however this will not affect the placement as the test officially ends once the League has been beaten. I apologize for those that wished to fight Red for their testing. However, much like its sequel, Kanto is a very hard place to accurately test and the level spike is atrocious.

What are Tiers?

Since there is no pre-existing Tier List to derive from, we will have 7 Tiers in this list. These are:
S-Tier
A-Tier
B-Tier
C-Tier
D-Tier
E-Tier
Untiered



The tier list is alphabetized for convenience. The higher tier a Pokemon is in the more it contributes within an efficient playthrough. We are tiering Pokemon based on their performance in teams of 3 to 5 Pokemon because those teams are most common among casual players. However, for GSC, 4 is optimal, due to the lack of reliable methods of obtaining enough XP to warrant a 5th Member. This is entirely up to the tester though. A discussion slate will be ongoing for the Pokemon being tested which will be listed at the end of my posts. This is to keep us on track. However, it is not mandatory for the tester to post his progress unless said tester wants to.


Pokemon are ranked under the following 5 factors:


Availability: This is how early a Pokemon arrives in the game and how hard it is to find (read: encounter rate). Does it require backtracking, HM moves, or otherwise have a low encounter rate?


Typing - A Pokemon's typing can be of great importance for an efficiency playthrough. How does the typing match-up work against the entire game? If a Pokemon has better typing it is often considered a higher rank..


Stats - A Pokemon's stat distribution is crucial for a Pokemon's success. Does the Pokemon have a stat distribution that supplements the Pokemon's movepool and typing? If a Pokemon has a stat distribution that favors its both typing and movepool it will often be higher on the tier list. In general, a Pokemon that is often slower than it is faster will often be ranked lower on a tier list.


Movepool - A Pokemon's movepool (both level-up and TM/HM) are crucial for a Pokemon. What moves does the Pokemon naturally get and can possibly obtain? Unfortunately this is the Gen before infinite TMs, thus opportunity cost comes into effect. With that being said, if a Pokemon requires a TM found in a detour off the main path this will knock it down in viability potentially.


Major Battles - Major battles consist of Gym Leaders, Rival encounters, the Elite 4 and Lance. How does the Pokemon contribute to major battles? A Pokemon that contributes to many major battles will often be seen higher than those that do not.

Path Divergence – Like its Sequel, around Morty you can move over to Pryce or go towards Olivine. The tester may go whichever way they would prefer. Going East nets you a Sludge Bomb TM after the Rocket Hideout is dealt with. Going West nets you Fly eventually.


Which Pokemon are available for the player to use in Pokemon Gold, Silver, and Crystal?

The available Pokemon for the Player are the entire Johto Dex within reason. Pokemon that are Post Game are still available but come in too late to test efficiently.


What tools are allowed for the player to use?

The player is allowed to use any legitimate means within the cartridge for completing the game efficiently. The player is only allowed to trade to evolve Pokemon and not to receive outside help otherwise. Keep in mind that items have opportunity costs associated with them and can still contribute to a Pokemon negatively if it requires a multitude of items.

X-Items are banned during testing. These cause an unnatural advantage in your favor and defeat the purpose of using a Pokemon as naturally as you can. (Ex. Using X Speed on Granbull is like saying it used a speed buffing move it would know naturally or TM when it cannot.) If this isn’t enough, it is also Item Reliance which you would need to use multiple X Items anyway to have a lasting effect.

Tier List Key


This signifies what game a Pokemon can be caught in, and whether they need a trade to evolve.

GSC: All Version

G: Gold Version only

S: Silver Version only

C: Crystal only

(Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of trading for its evolution.

(No Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of no trade accessible to the player (this does not include in-game trades)

Pokemon Gold:

  • Mankey: Routes 9 and 42
  • Primeape: Route 9
  • Growlithe: Route 36, Route 37, Route 7, Route 8
  • Spinarak: Route 30, Route 31, Route 37, Route 2
  • Ariados: Route 2
  • Gligar: Route 45
  • Mantine: Route 41
  • Teddiursa: Route 45
Pokemon Silver
  • Vulpix: Route 36, Route 37, Route 7, Route 8
  • Meowth: Route 5, Route 6, Route 7, Route 8, Route 38, Route 39
  • Persian: Route 7
  • Ledyba: Route 30, Route 31, Route 37, Route 2
  • Phanpy: Route 45
  • Delibird: Ice Path
  • Skarmory: Route 45​
Pokemon Crystal has the luxury of sharing some Pokemon and moving them between Silver and Gold. However, it also loses some as well. Below is a list of the shared exclusives that testers can obtain in Crystal:

  • Growlithe: Route 8, Route 35, Route 36, Route 37
  • Spinarak: Route 30, Route 31, Route 33, Route 36, Route 37, Route 42, Azalea Town, National Park, Route 2
  • Ariados: Route 37, Route 2
  • Gligar: Route 45
  • Mantine: Route 41
  • Teddiursa: Dark Cave
  • Meowth: Route 38, Route 39, Route 5, Route 6, Route 7, Route 8, Route 11
  • Persian: Route 7
  • Ledyba: Route 30, Route 31, Route 33, Route 36, Route 37, Route 42, Azalea Town, National Park, Route 2
  • Phanpy: Route 45, Route 46
  • Delibird: Ice Path
  • Skarmory: Route 45

GSC has some glitches that can affect the tiering of some Pokemon if the tester desires them. Below is a list of glitches.


Glitch List

The status conditions of paralysis, burn, and poison increase the catch rate by 0 as opposed to by 5.

The Love Ball only gains a catch rate of 8× on Pokémon of the same gender and species as the player's Pokémon, rather than on Pokémon of the opposite gender.

The Moon Ball is supposed to multiply the catch rate by 4 on Pokémon that evolve with Moon Stone but instead does this on Pokémon that evolve with Burn Heal, as the game uses the index number that Moon Stone has in Generation I, rather than Generation II. Consequently, Moon Ball does not have any additional effect and always acts like a Poké Ball.

The Fast Ball is supposed to quadruple the catch rate against all wild Pokémon that can flee (a mechanic unique to Generation II), but only does this for three of them: Magnemite, Grimer, and Tangela.

The Dragon Scale boosts the power of Dragon-type moves rather than the Dragon Fang.

DST Trick

The DST Trick is a method only in Crystal that is used to force calls from Trainers that are in your PokeGear by returning to New Bark Town and having your mom switch it on and off. For the purpose of this list, the trick is allowed only for the Evolution Stones, not a method for grinding unless a late arrival needs some levels (Please be transparent about what you plan to do with the late arrival in this case). For reference on who gives what:

Picknicker Gina (Route 34): Leaf Stone
Schoolboy Alan (Route 36): Fire Stone
Fisherman Tully (Route 42): Water Stone
Lass Dana (Route 38): Thunder Stone

Tiering Rules:

Level Cap
: You may be allowed up to a +2 in levels comparative to a Gym Leader's, E4's Ace. For example, you may be Level 32 for Chuck (which really shouldn't be happening anyways).
Falkner is an exception to this rule due to his inherently low level.

Other things taken from Passerby's List:

Rare Candies are allowed in moderation. This means that a Pokemon at most should have 1 to 2 candies on it for the following reasons: To see if a level or 2 would allow some ranges to decrease, meaning 3HKOs turn to 2HKOs, a level up move that could change the MU immensely, an evolution, etc. Candies are NOT to be used excessively.


We are starting from scratch. It will take some time for me to go over Passerby's list and make sure that all those tests are accounted for. I am not invalidating the runs from that list or past ones. The ones below are done by preliminary and are subject to move at this point in time (this bit will edited out once we get more tests overall).

S tier: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the highest levels of efficiency of the available options in the Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver versions. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO an overwhelming majority of opponents, limiting the amount of attacks used against them, and possess minimal reliance on items to help assist them defeat opponents at like levels. These Pokémon typically show up before the late-game and any flaws they have are absolutely made up by their advantages.

Abra (Both)

A-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be very high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of opponents and are not very reliant on items to succeed, but either have some visible flaws that hurt their efficiency or have their usefulness counterbalanced by a late arrival.

Magmar
Spearow
Totodile

B-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a fair chunk of opponents and may have a bit of item reliance to assist in sweeping opponents. These Pokémon are still very useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or come fairly late.

Growlithe (Crystal)
Miltank
Snubbull
Tauros
Teddiursa

C-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be moderately high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.

Chikorita
Cyndaquil
Drowzee
Magnemite
Nidoran (M)
Phanpy (Crystal)
Pidgey
Rattata
Sandshrew
Scyther

D-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be average. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a small amount of opponents and tend to be matchup-based enough to need item reliance to assist in sweeping a few opponents. The usefulness of these Pokémon are typically counterbalanced by many visible flaws or are useful Pokémon that come very late.

Caterpie
Jigglypuff (Crystal)
Marill
Oddish (Plume)

E-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be low. Pokémon in this tier are generally only able to OHKO or 2HKO specific opponents and suffer from being matchup-based, generally relying on items to assist in sweeping several opponents. These Pokémon either have flaws that outshine its strengths or are otherwise decent Pokémon that come too late to be of any major use.

Ledyba

Untiered: The following Pokemon are in the Kanto/Johto Pokedex but are not obtainable prior to beating the Pokemon League

Houndour
 
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Hey Turdterra! What's good? Hoping we can complete this tier list this time :)

To get the ball rolling, I'll start with some suggestions.

The starters should all be moved up by one tier. Chikorita isn't bad enough to be in C-Tier, their major matchups are admittedly on the dismal side but their ability to contribute against random NPCs is still great and it can act as a very good supporter with dual screens while doing okay enough damage if needed. Cyndaquil deserves to be in A-Tier, they blast through Bugsy easily and albeit with some coverage aid (with both Rollout and Fury Cutter not being particularly high demand TMs, though Dig is) can smash through 6/8 of Johto pretty well and as Typhlosion, crush the E4 and be useful against Lance. Totodile is a straight S-Tier (if not higher), their move coverage is just too good with early Rage, early Surf, and Ice Punch + Bite being easily obtained moves with no opportunity cost, punching through everyone from Falkner to Lance - only Chuck gets hit neutrally, shockingly.

Growlithe (Crystal) should be in A, they're immediately useful against Sprout Tower and other NPCs, and can be allies against Bugsy and the Rival's Bayleef. Early Fire Stone before Whitney gives you Arcanine, a Pokemon that steamrolled her singlehandedly in my test, and a Pokemon that can terrorize Morty with Bite, Jasmine with Ember (no, you don't need Flame Wheel or Fire Blast), and Pryce with Return/Strength + Ember (again, no Fire Blast needed). Against the E4, Fire Blast + Bite + Sunny Day + Return enable you to be a strong contributor against all of the E4, though Lance is not a good matchup. Starmie (Crystal) should be in S, they can pretty much steamroll the entire game and can be obtained before (and train in) Morty. Rain Dance + Surf + Thunder + Icy Wind pretty much makes the game a joke, just have healing items for Umbreon and Thunder Dragonite, and you good.
 
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Hey Turdterra! What's good? Hoping we can complete this tier list this time :)

To get the ball rolling, I'll start with some suggestions.

The starters should all be moved up by one tier. Chikorita isn't bad enough to be in C-Tier, their major matchups are admittedly on the dismal side but their ability to contribute against random NPCs is still great and it can act as a very good supporter with dual screens while doing okay enough damage if needed. Cyndaquil deserves to be in A-Tier, they blast through Bugsy easily and albeit with some coverage aid (with both Rollout and Fury Cutter not being particularly high demand TMs, though Dig is) can smash through 6/8 of Johto pretty well and as Typhlosion, crush the E4 and be useful against Lance. Totodile is a straight S-Tier (if not higher), their move coverage is just too good with early Rage, early Surf, and Ice Punch + Bite being easily obtained moves with no opportunity cost.
Tell me why you believe Chikorita should be higher? I don’t care for random NPCs, I care about the major matchups. The random NPCs isn’t anything significant because every Pokémon has the capability to beat out the Route Trainers.

Toto while it has good coverage lacks the power of an S tier. It has the feel of an S Tier early one I won’t lie, but it never breaks this and as the game progresses it’s just stuck in this weird rut of never breaking this. At most it’s always 2HKOs or greater. Most S-Tiers are able to OHKO with incredible ease. I take S noms incredibly serious as we are talking about the best of the best. As such these Pokémon that get nommed to this are heavily scrutinized, analyzed, and torn apart to find if there is ANYTHING that would bar it from S.

As for Cynda, no. The previous list pretty much wanted that thing to stay in B as last time I checked, the amount of Bs outweighed the As. (6 B vs 3 A. I’ll do a recount of course once I get the time to.) Let’s talk about it. Cynda is very good for the first 2 gyms. Sweeps them, but after this it’s kinda just....there. A lot of KO ranges are stupidly high (4-5HKO with Ember, includes Charcoal). Fury Cutter is hella resisted and bums off Quilava’s weaker offensive stat. Fire Blast, the TM that saved it in HGSS, is 5500 Coins in the Game Corner (this is not banned btw unlike HGSS). You would need 110,000 Poke to even acquire this, which is impossible on first arrival, leaving you stuck with Ember until Flame Wheel at 31. At this point, Fire Blast is no longer needed as at this time, you only have Pryce, Clair, Rival, E4, and Champion left (Jasmine is a non issue with Flame Wheel). Fire Blast just....loses its potency it would have due to resistances. Sure you’ve got TPunch, but realistically this is happening after Pryce as 36’s tend to pop in around this point without level disparity.

When you edit something in, please make it clear. e: or edit: is more than enough for this purpose.
 
Tell me why you believe Chikorita should be higher? I don’t care for random NPCs, I care about the major matchups
Random NPCs are the majority of the trainers you'll be fighting though to progress through the game, so...

And as for the major matchups, you've got screen support.

The random NPCs isn’t anything significant because every Pokémon has the capability to beat out the Route Trainers
Some more than others. I believe route cleaners have been prized for such abilities even if their abilities in boss fights had been lacking.

Toto while it has good coverage lacks the power of an S tier. It has the feel of an S Tier early one I won’t lie, but it never breaks this and as the game progresses it’s just stuck in this weird rut of never breaking this. At most it’s always 2HKOs or greater. Most S-Tiers are able to OHKO with incredible ease. I take S noms incredibly serious as we are talking about the best of the best. As such these Pokémon that get nommed to this are heavily scrutinized, analyzed, and torn apart to find if there is ANYTHING that would bar it from S
I think 2HKOing with incredible ease and little cost is pretty useful too.

As for Cynda, no. The previous list pretty much wanted that thing to stay in B as last time I checked, the amount of Bs outweighed the As. (6 B vs 3 A. I’ll do a recount of course once I get the time to.) Let’s talk about it. Cynda is very good for the first 2 gyms. Sweeps them, but after this it’s kinda just....there. A lot of KO ranges are stupidly high (4-5HKO with Ember, includes Charcoal). Fury Cutter is hella resisted and bums off Quilava’s weaker offensive stat. Fire Blast, the TM that saved it in HGSS, is 5500 Coins in the Game Corner (this is not banned btw unlike HGSS). You would need 110,000 Poke to even acquire this, which is impossible on first arrival, leaving you stuck with Ember until Flame Wheel at 31. At this point, Fire Blast is no longer needed as at this time, you only have Pryce, Clair, Rival, E4, and Champion left (Jasmine is a non issue with Flame Wheel). Fire Blast just....loses its potency it would have due to resistances. Sure you’ve got TPunch, but realistically this is happening after Pryce as 36’s tend to pop in around this point without level disparity
All true for the most part, though Rollout is still there and you don't need Fire Blast until the E4, and smacking the E4 and helping beat Lance are amazing qualities to have as a Pokemon. If you care about boss fights, you should value defeating THE final bosses of the game.

When you edit something in, please make it clear. e: or edit: is more than enough for this purpose
Cool.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
I think how much we need to consider random NPCs when tiering is better suited for the policy thread, but just so it's not a one-liner, I wouldn't say route trainers should account heavily for a Pokemon's ranking. Killing route trainers is expected of pretty much every high tier Pokemon and even low-tier Pokemon like Jigglypuff and Marill have little difficulties doing that. If we considered that heavily, a lot of things would be B or A-tier and that's not a really good representation of their actual viability. Furthermore, one could argue that most of them aren't mandatory, so aren't too important either (realistically, you will fight them anyways, because you are using more than one-two Pokemon and will need money to buy things like elemental punches and GC TMs). If a Pokemon is terrible at route cleaning, then I would agree with a lower tier, as that would mean it cannot be grinded efficiently and will perform worse against the major battles, which I think are ultimately what represent a Pokemon's performance the best, as those are the symbolic checkpoints of progress in every Pokemon game.

as for Rollout on Cyndaquil, the biggest issue with that is that, per experience, you depend a lot on Rollout not missing at any point. When I used Cyndaquil in GSC, I often felt that my Quilava was at a severe disadvantage if it tried to Rollout and missed midway. This is even worse if you are trying to sweep, as a Rollout miss means you have to build it up again, which is unlikely to happen. I'd lean towards B-tier right now, as I felt it wasn't really powerful in the period between post-Bugsy and pre-Typhlosion, though I did start playing GSC like... week ago, so I won't label myself as a GSC expert.

As for Totodile to S, I think Totodile is slightly overrated. It's not bad, but I honestly didn't feel S-tier power when I used it. This was especially notable at the E4, where I pmuch never OHKOed anything, even with super effective hits. I can share more if someone's interested in this, though I want to see what other people that have used it have to say about it. For now, though, I think A is fine, it's certainly good, just not "dominant" level.
 
I think how much we need to consider random NPCs when tiering is better suited in the policy thread, but just so it's not a one-liner, I wouldn't say route trainers should account heavily for a Pokemon's ranking. Killing route trainers is expected of pretty much every high tier Pokemon and even low-tier Pokemon like Jigglypuff and Marill have little difficulties doing that. If we considered that heavily, a lot of things would be B or A-tier and that's not a really good representation of their actual viability. Furthermore, one could argue that most of them aren't mandatory, so aren't too important either (realistically, you will fight them anyways, because you are using more than one-two Pokemon and will need money to buy things like elemental punches and GC TMs). If a Pokemon is terrible at route cleaning, then I would agree with a lower tier, as that would mean it cannot be grinded efficiently and will perform worse against the major battles, which I think are ultimately what represent a Pokemon's performance the best, as those are the symbolic checkpoints of progress in every Pokemon game.

as for Rollout on Cyndaquil, the biggest issue with that is that, per experience, you depend a lot on Rollout not missing at any point. When I used Cyndaquil in GSC, I often felt that my Quilava was at a severe disadvantage if it tried to Rollout and missed midway. This is even worse if you are trying to sweep, as a Rollout miss means you have to build it up again, which is unlikely to happen. I'd lean towards B-tier right now, as I felt it wasn't really powerful in the period between post-Bugsy and pre-Typhlosion, though I did start playing GSC like... week ago, so I won't label myself as a GSC expert.

As for Totodile to S, I think Totodile is slightly overrated. It's not bad, but I honestly didn't feel S-tier power when I used it. This was especially notable at the E4, where I pmuch never OHKOed anything, even with super effective hits. I can share more if someone's interested in this, though I want to see what other people that have used it have to say about it. For now, though, I think A is fine, it's certainly good, just not "dominant" level.
IMO, Cyndaquil and Chikorita kinda have the reverse problem. Cyndaquil is genuinely good at boss fights (only Chuck and Clair are bad, and even then, Clair is manageable) while Chikorita is kinda bad at boss fights, but Cyndaquil kinda sucks against NPCs, whereas Chikorita actually excels against them. Of course, boss fights are and should be more important, so I feel Cyndaquil being in A and Chikorita being in B reflects this nicely.
Rollout not missing is a genuine problem, I'll give you that, but overall it's more of a game-winner than not, and Typhlosion is crazy strong against the E4 + Lance overall. Altogether, he's still worthy of A IMHO. You also may not need Rollout beyond Whitney and Morty anyway.

As for Totodile's S-tier power, I'm curious as to what you're basing this comparison on. Totodile has nary a bad matchup in the game - bosses and NPCs included - is just fantastic. Yes, his stats are awkwardly arranged in this game, but they're more than enough to get the job done.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
As for Totodile's S-tier power, I'm curious as to what you're basing this comparison on. Totodile has nary a bad matchup in the game - bosses and NPCs included - is just fantastic. Yes, his stats are awkwardly arranged in this game, but they're more than enough to get the job done.
I am not comparing it to anything specific, I just feel like S-tier is generally for Pokemon that have an overwhelming power for the major battles, e.g. it crushes most of them, limits the amount of attacks that can be landed on it, etc. I don't have any "fixed" standards for S-tier or any tier in general, because each game warrants its own standards and what "destroys the game" and "S-tier" constitute is bound to vary per each person.

as for the E4 performance, I remember Will 3HKOing my Feraligatr with most of his Pokemon (at least Jynx and Xatu #2), while Feraligatr can't OHKO any of them, so you are forced to heal if you want to take out more than two Pokemon. Koga was an okay matchup, but Crobat and Muk's evasion moves make it hard to kill them (Muk can probably be 2HKOed by EQ, but I am wary of considering TMs for very specific usages), though the Bugs shouldn't prove much of a problem (Ariados can also be annoying with evasion, though). Against Bruno, you need Rage spam to get past the Hitmons (so that's slightly slower than just 2HKOing them) and you depend on Lee not going for HJK iirc. Karen was the worst of all matchups, as I could pretty much only KO one Pokemon of her team, as whatever I faced weakened Feraligatr to the point that the others can kill it (I guess it can beat Gengar, but this thing's only attacking move is Lick, so...) before it can do the same to them. Lance was somewhat disappointing, as Ice Punch didn't OHKO Dragonite and I think they also outsped it.

I have logs if I really need to prove the legitimacy of the claims above. For transparency purposes, I was levels 40-42 on Feraligatr throughout the League, I didn't really use Rare Candies (and apparently, using a lot of those isn't considered per the OP either). I may have been one level below what would be considered normal, but I don't think being level 41 for Will would've changed much.
 
I'll be posting some stuff about my past few runs soon but I will talk about Chikorita and to a lesser extent Totodile.

Chikorita is utterly terrible and should be in C tier. It performs fine enough with Razor Leaf early on, but that's literally it, as it never gets better from Razor Leaf. It can actually beat Faulkner (much to my surprise) but never really feels like a big player in many other matchups bar Chuck and Pryce (some of the easier battles). I mean, COME ON. Bellsprout of all things looks more appealing, as at least it has a buffing option in Growth and decent STAB later in Sludge Bomb (though it is physical).

Everyone knows how bad Chikorita is in these games. Nobody really cares about route trainers, that's the equivalent of a participation award at grade school given how you have a 8+ level advantage on virtually all of them post-Morty. They are irrelevant. You cannot make up for bad major battle matchups with route trainers. Also like I've said in numerous other posts on this website, support strats are awful in-game.

Totodile ain't S tier and even A is a little shaky. It requires highly specific strats through Whitney (Rage primarily) that I don't think a casual would go for. There's also Rival 2 which forces you to TM Fury Cutter on. From Whitney on, it 2HKOs everything and never really becomes an OHKOing monster like Fearow or Kadabra do. Ice Punch can't even OHKO Clair's Dragonair with NeverMeltIce on! Though it actually can slug past Kingdra I guess. I'll reach a conclusion on it once I finish the League.
 
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Double posting but let's talk about the two runs I did. This is going to be a long post, which is why it's not edited into my previous one.

In my Crystal run, I used Chikorita, Phanpy, Snubbull, and Abra (no trade).

:gs/chikorita:
This thing isn't good. I went into why in my previous post. There's not much to say about this thing that everybody doesn't already know. The Gyms, Elite Four, and even Team Rocket screw it over, and decent field performance doesn't make up for this. Also you use Body Slam more than you actually use Razor Leaf.

:gs/phanpy:
Wow this thing sucks. I mean it performs alright until about Whitney (notably sweeping her with Rollout!) and then does absolutely nothing else as the power fails to measure up even after evolving. By the League, Earthquake is too little, too late. I could honestly see this in D, though it can MAYBE be C if you're EXCEPTIONALLY generous. The mid/late-game where you spam Normal moves for two eons is just that bad.

:gs/snubbull:
THIS, on the other hand is incredible. Delivers near lethal blows on every attack it uses, with a 30% encounter rate to boot, though it does flee. I can definitely see this in A, but the only thing potentially preventing that is it isn't so good on both Whitney and Morty. This I think definitely needs a few more people testing it before it can be solidified.

:gs/kadabra:
Yeah this is S tier. Sweeps pretty much everything including Whitney (with level 21 Psybeam) - it takes 4/6 of Lance's team, and only has minor struggles elsewhere (Jasmine's Steelix OHKOing it with Iron Tail, Kingdra, 2 mons of Karen). This shouldn't be tiered differently from Alakazam at all.

In my Silver run, I used Totodile, Spearow, Magmar, and Meowth.

:gs/totodile:
So, is Totodile S tier?

I can see why people think this...somewhat. Yes, Totodile and Croconaw solo the first three gyms. And yes, Feraligatr can beat Chuck, Pryce and Jasmine too. It definitely feels close to S throughout the game. The bulk is a selling point I think.

However, it just never quite reaches the dominance an S tier typically needs. It does mostly average business at the Pokemon League, never really sweeping much of anyone there at all, and even its most favorable matchup in Lance needs heavy item support to actually sweep. I know the old gens are much harder to sweep in than newer ones (hi RSE) but it never felt like an unstoppable force to me.

It feels closer to A than it does to S, though I wouldn't rule out S completely because I know a lot of people think it belongs there. I feel like both Spearow and Magmar below are closer to S than Totodile ever is. Logs are below.

Faulkner (12): Two Rage boosts from Pidgey (3HKO) and one from Pidgeotto allow you to 2HKO the latter. Easy solo, even Pidgeotto critting me with Gust once didn’t threaten me.

Bugsy (18): Rage counter is 3 by the time Scyther comes out. Rage 4 2HKOs Scyther. Even if you are Rage 2 by the time Scyther comes out and get poisoned by Kahuna, you win.

Whitney (21): Miltank comes out on Rage 3 and misses Rollout before hitting, living 3 Rages in red. She missed Rollout again and I win. If you are at Rage 6 when Miltank comes out via a duo of Doubleslaps hitting three times you 2HKO it. A little inconsistent but rather good. I doubt Pink Bow improves this matchup much.

Azalea Rival (18): Water Gun 2HKOs Gastly. Fury Cutter 3HKOs Bayleef who 2HKOs with Razor Leaf (you want it to Poisonpowder). Water Gun 2HKOs Zubat. you can Fury Cutter Gastly but definitely wanna Water Gun first. Need some luck.

Whitney (21): Miltank comes out on Rage 3 and misses Rollout before hitting, living 3 Rages in red. She missed Rollout again and I win. If you are at Rage 6 when Miltank comes out via a duo of Doubleslaps hitting three times you 2HKO it. A little inconsistent but rather good. I doubt Pink Bow improves this matchup much.

Rival Burned Tower (23): Surf 2HKOs Haunter and is a roll to OHKO Magnemite who 2HKOs with Thundershock. Ice Punch looks like rolls to 2HKO Bayleef. Ice Punch OHKOs Zubat. Decent.

Morty (25): Outspeeds and OHKOs Gastly with Surf, but Haunter are just barely 2HKOed (and potentially outspeed you) leaving you prey to Hypnosis. Surf 3HKOS Gengar. Kinda bleh.

Chuck (31): Mystic Water. MW Surf 2HKOs Poliwrath and Return 3HKOs Poliwrath while DynamicPunch 3HKOs Gatr. You outspeed both.

Jasmine (31): Mystic Water. MW Surf OHKOs both Magnemite but can leave Steelix alive, if Sunny Day goes up and she heals it you still 3HKO and she can’t kill you.

Pryce (31): Mystic Water. Return 2HKOs Seel, 3HKOs Dewgong, and Surf OHKOs Piloswine. They don’t kill you but Dewgong is annoying and can Headbutt flinch after an Icy Wind.

Rival Tunnel (34): Mystic Water. Ice Punch 2HKOs Golbat and Meganium, Surf 2HKOs Sneasel and OHKOs Haunter and Magnemite. Easy sweep, but Golbat is annoying.

Clair (39): NeverMeltIce. Odd, you knock all 3 Dragonair to red with Ice Punch but can generally outmuscle Kingdra by 3HKOing with Return.

Rival Victory Road (42): Mystic Water. Surf looks like a roll to OHKO Sneasel and also leaves Magneton alive (both in red). Meganium is barely 2HKOed by Ice Punch and Golbat is cleanly 2HKOed by Ice Punch. Haunter is OHKOed by Surf and Kadabra is OHKOed by Return.

Will (42): Pink Bow. Ice Punch 2HKOs Xatu and Eggs while Pink Bow allows Gatr to secure the OHKO on Jynx (typically it in red otherwise). Slowbro beats you (I think you 3HKO with Return but eh). Second Xatu is 2HKOed by Ice Punch. You outspeed everyone. Gatr is 3HKOed by Psychic.

Koga (43): Mystic Water. 2HKOs Ariados, Venomoth, and Forretress with Surf. Muk is almost 2HKOed by Return while Crobat is barely 2HKOed by Ice Punch. The last two make a sweep difficult thanks to evasion strategies combined with Toxic.

Bruno (43): Mystic Water. Hitmontop is barely 2HKOed by Surf. Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee are easily 2HKOed by Surf, while Machamp is 3HKOed by Surf and finishes you off. Onix is obviously OHKOed by Surf. Decent.

Karen (43): Mystic Water. Umbreon is roughly 3HKOed by Surf. You and Vileplume 2HKO each other with Ice Punch and Petal Dance respectively. Gengar seems 2HKOed by Surf (it used Curse). Murkrow is outsped and knocked to red by Ice Punch. Houndoom dodges the Surf OHKO and 3HKOs with Crunch.

Lance (44): Mystic Water. You and Gyarados 3HKO each other with Return and Hyper Beam respectively, but because you are faster you only are hit with one Hyper Beam. You 2HKO all three Dragonite with Ice Punch and they seem to 3HKO you with Hyper Beam / Outrage. I used two healing items around the time Charizard comes out. It lives Surf in red and crits me to death with Hyper Beam. Surf even leaves Aerodactyl alive in red too, though it can be OHKOed thanks to Mystic Water (I don’t think you need NMI to 2HKO Dragonite). If the Thunder Dragonite hits you with some prior damage, you’re gonna die, plain and simple. Hyper Beam 3HKOs you from anything it seems.

:gs/spearow:
Used a normal one (non-Kenya). Wow this thing is actually amazing. It does well in about every Gym but unlike Feraligatr turns in a pretty great League performance too. Return does everything you want it to do, Pink Bow is very nice, and Fly utility is a bonus though you almost never use anything besides Return. Not much to say, I honestly think it could have a shot at S though I would still be happy if it ended up in A. I would share logs but this post is long enough as is, though I can share them if need be. This isn't as stupidly busted as Abra, however.

:gs/magmar:
Yeah this is A thanks to midgame availability and a somewhat shaky League performance (combined with being iffy for Clair). Everywhere else though it's sublime. This fits in A perfectly.

:gs/meowth:
HOLY CRAP THIS IS AWFUL, absolutely dreadful. It makes Phanpy look like a Darumaka in comparison! There is no reason to use this. I used it for the midgame gyms and ditched it the second I saw it fail to 2HKO the rival's Golbat. 70 Attack is literally the worst non-Farfetch'd Normal offense you can have as Persian. It does nothing any other Normal can't do better and should go straight to D, maybe even E. I could feasibly finish testing it as I have a save state at Clair but that's a form of torture I wouldn't wish upon anyone.

TLDR:
Chikorita - C
Phanpy - C / D borderline
Snubbull - A / B borderline, leaning A (Crystal)
Abra (no trade) - S

Totodile - A
Spearow - A / borderline S
Magmar - A
Meowth - Blue, blue. You strange, unmasked fellow. Don't go to heaven! (D or E)
 
Last edited:

Ryota Mitarai

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I want to second Magmar to A. I used it as well in one of my runs and it was very good. The only matchups that I felt were meh were Clair and Bruno, but outside of those, Magmar was useful (KOed two of Lance's Pokemon too). I don't think it should be S simply because of those two matchups + skipping three Gyms due to availability, but it's one of the best Pokemon to use in this game.

As a side note, I think Jigglypuff (Crystal) should just be merged with the GS one and make it just "Jigglypuff". While GS one comes earlier, you need to switch-grind it until level 9 since it will have no attacking moves and your only good matchup before Goldenrod is Falkner, so I don't think we should ultimately split them at any point, though I am open to changing my mind.

(and Teddiursa should probably be Teddiursa (C), as the Gold one comes at Route 45).
 
Not sure about the Fearow hype. Mon can't one-shot a lot of things and is straight up walled by a good number of foes, while having mediocre bulk. Even Chuck isn't necessarily a safe matchup in spite of the type ''advantage''. No way is he making it into S-Tier through combat prowess alone, A-Tier at best and I say at best if we care about defeating field trainers at all. Fearow has off performances against Jasmine, Whitney, pretty much the entire E4 (not counting the Bugs or Bruno's Fighting types, and Machamp and Forretress are still dangerous), and Lance. Pryce and Chuck are risky, and if you go for Kenya, you don't get to use them against Falkner or Bugsy. I find Fearow good overall but to quote Volt-Ikazuchi from before, not fitting an ace.

And it's about time I provide some more detailed descriptions and cases for each Pokemon I tested.

Growlithe (C) is a very good Pokemon, one of the best I've ever used or tested with very few bad matchups and mostly good/great ones. Needs very little TM support to do well ingame - I found myself scarcely ever needing Dig in spite of teaching it to him. Bite, Headbutt (can be replaced with Return eventually), and Ember devour much of the game, and I destroyed Whitney with laughable ease in our fight. The only TMs he needs to do well are Headbutt and Fire Blast, and Return is good to have too. That said, Fire Blast's tendency to miss and low PP prevent him from being S-tier, as does a troublesome matchup with two major Dragon-type bosses. A-tier for sure.

Vaporeon (C) is also terrific, hitting very hard and being pretty bulky. Mainly nothing but good matchups, though the lack of speed can be a bit of annoying and prevents them from reaching S tier - healing support for that reason is preferred to clinch some matchups reliably. Natural Aurora Beam and Bite are pretty good, and Rain Dance + Surf hits like an aquatic truck. Very self-sufficient in terms of TMs and healing items aren't too hard to supply. Backtrack may be a bit annoying but it's hardly time-consuming and easy enough at that point in the game. A-tier.

Crobat is a pretty solid mon, though they struggle mightily against Steel-types and have many exploitable weaknesses. Hit decently hard and outspeeds nearly everything, even holding his own against guys that have an elemental advantage against him due to decent bulk and Bite, however. Not necessarily gonna solo entire opponent teams - though they can do that a few times too, especially with item support - but overall really good at decimating fodder trainers and helpful in many major ones. B-tier.

Bellsprout is...kind of underwhelming and exceeds expectations at once. On one hand, Weepinbell did pretty good in spite of not evolving into Victreebel until nearly the end of the playthrough, and Sleep Powder is a really clutch move for both catching mons and defeating ones, including to help your party. Growth Vine Whip bests many a major opponent, including some they have no business fighting normally or some really challenging ones like Whitney. Their Sludge Bombs also pack a wallop in spite of not fully evolving. On the other hand, Grass/Poison coverage is pretty bad and lack of versatility hurts a lot. Probably C-tier.

Cyndaquil is a pretty solid mon all-in-all with almost zero truly bad matchups, with even the likes of Whitney, Clair, and Lance all beatable with item support (and in the case of Aerodactyl, a teammate or an X-Speed maybe). They trounce Bugsy, the Rival (each time), Jasmine, Pryce, the entirety of the Elite Four, and do well against Morty (with Dig). They aren't bad against NPC trainers either. Fury Cutter and/or Rollout is a relatively low demand TM and mandatory for Whitney if you plan on using Cyndaquil there, though Dig has competition unfortunately and in either case another mon might use it better. Sunny Day, Fire Blast, and Thunderpunch enable you to dog walk the E4 pretty much, just have Ethers handy. A-tier.

Rattata is a solid B-tier mon, all right. They do well from beginning to the near end, helping against the Rival and being downright terrifying against NPCs after picking up Hyper Fang, and aren't very item dependent though might like Dig to beat on Morty better. Not much to say here. The Normal-type and the badge boosts make him a solid choice on any team and they can certainly help in all but a few matchups. They fall off at the end, where their lack of durability shows and their power is unfortunately not quite high enough to compensate all the time, though they are good before that.

Quagsire is a good Pokemon on the balance of B-and A-tier. Their lack of speed and low powered Surfs are very annoying against NPC trainers alone and their bulk is a little wanting, though not really bad. On the other hand, their Earthquakes are pretty strong, their Ice Punches do the job, and Amnesia spamming makes them very hard to take down and allows them to coast by through major battles. Their typing is also really good ingame due to few Pokemon being able to hit them super-effectively in major fights and even those can be overcome easily through Amnesia barring a crit. Wanting the Dig TM might be a reason to keep them out of A - they use it quite well but it's their only decent Ground-type move until Earthquake. B-tier.

Donphan is being underrated. Although they are dependent on the Rollout TM, their ability to roll over much of the game is amazing. Defense Curl can enable you to tank physical attacks with little difficulty combined with their natural bulk and amps Rollout to boot, early evolution (L20!) combined with beastly Attack of 120 and boosted Normal-type moves enable you to trample most mons you meet. Even resists like Poliwrath and Steelix fall to the ''Curlout'' strategy, though some healing might admittedly be required for the latter. C-tier at worst, B-tier might not be too bad though.

Scyther is pretty rad. Badge boosts and a monstrous Attack allow them to terrorize NPC trainers and a handful of Gym Leaders, even ones with an elemental advantage like Pryce or tough cookies like Whitney. At the E4 (or even Clair), Swords Dance sweeping from the beginning (and a bit of healing if needed) make every single member more or less a joke, with Bruno's Onix being maybe the only real roadblock. On the other hand, their exploitable weaknesses and lack of coverage make people like Jasmine and Morty very troublesome roadblocks - Normal/Flying coverage and Fury Cutter ain't enough there. Catching one can be annoying too, they're rare for one. B-tier at worst, might be A-tier though.

I am not comparing it to anything specific, I just feel like S-tier is generally for Pokemon that have an overwhelming power for the major battles, e.g. it crushes most of them, limits the amount of attacks that can be landed on it, etc. I don't have any "fixed" standards for S-tier or any tier in general, because each game warrants its own standards and what "destroys the game" and "S-tier" constitute is bound to vary per each person.
Honestly, idk. Having copied the ranking methodology from another tier list, I'm not certain S-tier needs to be that ''overwhelming'', and what Totodile lacks in quality (not much until the E4 + Lance), he more than makes up for in quantity (hitting Chuck and Chuck alone for neutral damage at best). As you said, each game warrants its own standards, and few if any Pokemon in GSC can match the ''one shot everyone'' ideal tbh.
 
Sorry for the double post, but I thought it's a good idea to say this.

How exactly are matchups being prioritized or weighted? While Turdterra doesn't ''care'' about non-major battles, multiple tier lists - including the previous iterations of this tier list - have placed some value on such battles. Of course, the Gym Leaders, Team Rocket, and Rival can still be weighted more heavily. Given that the E4 and the Champion are the final bosses of the game, it also makes sense to weigh them more heavily than anyone else, including the Leaders. My thoughts are 10-20% for NPCs, 35-45% for gyms + Team Rocket, and 45% for the Elite Four + Lance.

I also think ranking Normal-types in C in general is a bad idea this gen. The 24% boosts to their Normal-type STAB and 12% boosts to their Speed make them a lot more formidable than one might traditionally expect. They trash the vast majority of NPCs and before Turdterra interjects, are for the large part useful against major bosses (mainly before the E4, though they can also contribute there - Fearow can mostly pulverize Bruno and do a number on Karen and Raticate/Furret/Tauros/Miltank/Granbull can at least polish off individual mons from each E4 member).

SD Scyther should also be a B tier minimum, they can nigh steamroll the E4 with a couple of SDs (perhaps three for Lance or Bruno).
 
Sorry for the double post, but I thought it's a good idea to say this.

How exactly are matchups being prioritized or weighted? While Turdterra doesn't ''care'' about non-major battles, multiple tier lists - including the previous iterations of this tier list - have placed some value on such battles. Of course, the Gym Leaders, Team Rocket, and Rival can still be weighted more heavily. Given that the E4 and the Champion are the final bosses of the game, it also makes sense to weigh them more heavily than anyone else, including the Leaders. My thoughts are 10-20% for NPCs, 35-45% for gyms + Team Rocket, and 45% for the Elite Four + Lance.

I also think ranking Normal-types in C in general is a bad idea this gen. The 24% boosts to their Normal-type STAB and 12% boosts to their Speed make them a lot more formidable than one might traditionally expect. They trash the vast majority of NPCs and before Turdterra interjects, are for the large part useful against major bosses (mainly before the E4, though they can also contribute there - Fearow can mostly pulverize Bruno and do a number on Karen and Raticate/Furret/Tauros/Miltank/Granbull can at least polish off individual mons from each E4 member).

SD Scyther should also be a B tier minimum, they can nigh steamroll the E4 with a couple of SDs (perhaps three for Lance or Bruno).
You’ve been told that we don’t care for NPC Trainer in this thread. I don’t care about the other threads. I care about what happens in mine. While this may be offputting, you aren’t testing for the other threads but this one. Drop this topic now please.

I’m not putting all the normals in an all encompassing tier. They each get tested on their own merits.

In case it wasn’t abundantly clear, we test Pokémon via seeing. Can they do it or not. If it’s a clean sweep it’s considered a good MU for it, but you’ll need to tell us ranges and what has to happen if it isn’t a clean sweep. If it doesn’t sweep but takes down more than half, it’s a decent MU. It’s my personal opinion that testing via sweeping is the best way to test a Pokemon. Some will of course disagree on this. This is how this thread will be testing.

Also, provide logs are actual evidence when you try to place a Pokémon. Theorymonning only gets you so far.
 
You’ve been told that we don’t care for NPC Trainer in this thread. I don’t care about the other threads. I care about what happens in mine. While this may be offputting, you aren’t testing for the other threads but this one. Drop this topic now please
I was under the impression tier lists had similar policies in general. Clearly I was wrong.

I’m not putting all the normals in an all encompassing tier. They each get tested on their own merits
Cool, I didn't realize I told you to not test them. I meant that this is a safe tier to place them all in - some may outperform it, some may not, and that you can figure out through testing. Also, you placed Cyndaquil and other Pokemon in tiers without testing them first, even in tiers different from their final placements in the previous tier lists. Is what I am asking really that different?

In case it wasn’t abundantly clear, we test Pokémon via seeing. Can they do it or not. If it’s a clean sweep it’s considered a good MU for it, but you’ll need to tell us ranges and what has to happen if it isn’t a clean sweep. If it doesn’t sweep but takes down more than half, it’s a decent MU. It’s my personal opinion that testing via sweeping is the best way to test a Pokemon
But you didn't even answer my question about the importance of certain MUs versus others.

Also, provide logs are actual evidence when you try to place a Pokémon. Theorymonning only gets you so far
This is kind of rich, given that I have no incentive to fabricate my experiences, and I have plenty of logs on the previous thread pertaining to a great many of the Pokemon I've tried to place thus far. It is evidence that supports my conclusions, not theorymonning.

But yes, if you want logs for any specific Pokemon, feel free to ask.
 
I was under the impression tier lists had similar policies in general. Clearly I was wrong.



Cool, I didn't realize I told you to not test them. I meant that this is a safe tier to place them all in - some may outperform it, some may not, and that you can figure out through testing. Also, you placed Cyndaquil and other Pokemon in tiers without testing them first, even in tiers different from their final placements in the previous tier lists. Is what I am asking really that different?



But you didn't even answer my question about the importance of certain MUs versus others.



This is kind of rich, given that I have no incentive to fabricate my experiences, and I have plenty of logs on the previous thread pertaining to a great many of the Pokemon I've tried to place thus far. It is evidence that supports my conclusions, not theorymonning.

But yes, if you want logs for any specific Pokemon, feel free to ask.
You thought very wrong. It’s best to ask than just assume.

Cynda was tested/is being tested. Ryota quite literally said he had logs if you wanted them. All of those that are listed above have been tested. I also have logs if you want it. Right now it’s functioning as a C tier.

Maybe read the OP and find out that those had been tested so that we had some Mons places and ready to be discussed?

I’m still in the process of getting all logs from the previous lists in as well. Mark IV is pretty much the last one. But I do remember you tested Cynda 7 times in the old list each nom being A (fun fact, it’s not A. I’ll have my test on it up shortly). As for your placements, those are based on the old list, not this one. Hence they get tiered differently and a lot of them I hard disagree with.

As for certain MUs vs Others, Whitney, Clair, and Lance are the absolute pivotal ones that outweigh most others, however this also doesn’t mean that if you clean sweep them you are automatically risen a tier. If other MUs start showing it sucks, then the pivotal ones slowly get outweighed. For example, Cynda starts out as A tier, easily beating Falkner and Bugsy. Whitney absolutely throttles it unless you do an INSANE amount of setup, use Fury Cutter, or Rollout (which was discussed as a good/bad thing for the mon), Morty also throttles it a bit due to status shenanigans. Chuck also beats it with Surf Spam and you are stupid dependent on Rollout. The worst offense it has being Jasmine. If you don’t have Flame Wheel/Fire Blast, you lose to her. Pryce you do sweep with Rollout/Fire Blast but again, you rely on hitting everything, and Clair is lol (testing E4 now). As you see, the amount of negatives, even the ones that are “lesser” far outweigh the pivotal ones that Cynda would partake in (which if fails all of them anyway in my eyes).
 
You thought very wrong. It’s best to ask than just assume
Ok.

Cynda was tested/is being tested. Ryota quite literally said he had logs if you wanted them. All of those that are listed above have been tested. I also have logs if you want it. Right now it’s functioning as a C tier
Cool, except I'm asking you, as it's your thread, not Ryota's nor mine.

Maybe read the OP and find out that those had been tested so that we had some Mons places and ready to be discussed?
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize y'all were testing Pokemon and not telling us beforehand.

I’m still in the process of getting all logs from the previous lists in as well. Mark IV is pretty much the last one. But I do remember you tested Cynda 7 times in the old list each nom being A (fun fact, it’s not A
Oh, how petty. You love to see it.

As for your placements, those are based on the old list, not this one. Hence they get tiered differently and a lot of them I hard disagree with.
Cool, state your disagreements.

As for certain MUs vs Others, Whitney, Clair, and Lance are the absolute pivotal ones that outweigh most others
Good to know, and makes sense. Can't complain here.

however this also doesn’t mean that if you clean sweep them you are automatically risen a tier. If other MUs start showing it sucks, then the pivotal ones slowly get outweighed. For example, Cynda starts out as A tier, easily beating Falkner and Bugsy. Whitney absolutely throttles it unless you do an INSANE amount of setup, use Fury Cutter, or Rollout (which was discussed as a good/bad thing for the mon), Morty also throttles it a bit due to status shenanigans. Chuck also beats it with Surf Spam and you are stupid dependent on Rollout. The worst offense it has being Jasmine. If you don’t have Flame Wheel/Fire Blast, you lose to her. Pryce you do sweep with Rollout/Fire Blast but again, you rely on hitting everything, and Clair is lol (testing E4 now). As you see, the amount of negatives, even the ones that are “lesser” far outweigh the pivotal ones that Cynda would partake in (which if fails all of them anyway in my eyes)
How is Fury Cutter or Rollout an ''insane'' amount of setup? It's a very simple move to use, and Morty's ''throttling'' can be countered using a held Mint Berry to great effect. Nothing's stopping you from getting Flame Wheel before Jasmine (I'll leave Fire Blast aside), and Typhlosion does very well against the E4 and okay against Lance (beating Charizard and Gyarados reliably, potentially even a Dragonite).

I don't see the negatives outweighing the positives at all from anything you said, literally every example you provide (minus Chuck and Chuck alone, and Clair though you didn't expand on her, and you're straight up incorrect about the ''lol'' part) is a case FOR Cyndaquil, not against.

Edit: Cyndaquil steamrolls nearly everyone that's not one of the top MUs...and can realistically, if not super consistently, beat 2/3 of them at least. Even if he can't solo, he can do a lot of damage and pave the path clear for someone else to.
 

DHR-107

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Orange Islands
Dear god.

I don't want to see any more posts about goddamn Cyndaquil. Everyone who is testing it, carry on, but don't post anything about until other stuff has been looked at. It's become a massive stumbling block and it can wait for now. If I see any Cyndaquil posts I'll infract for them until such a time where it needs to be discussed. I know this is stepping on Turdterra's toes, but I can do that.

The previous thread turned into shit over it and I don't want that to happen again here. You've already been warned about conduct before Aegon, and it now just seems you're acting in bad faith considering your previous shenanigans in the other thread.

NPCs in Johto are pathetic and they aren't worth talking about. The only place I can think of where there is a "consistent" challenge is the Lighthouse or the route to the Pokémon League. And that's mostly because both of those sections are long and have a number of forced battles which you can't get out of. Like Turdterra said, Whitney and Clair are the two biggest MUs for me, and then probably the E4 after those.
 
I did a run with both Nidos as they were brought up but never tested in the last thread as well as Growlithe and Staryu as I disagreed with Aegon but thought they might deserve to move up one tier.

20 Nidorino 2HKO's Clefairy and 4HKO's Miltank but Miltank 3HKO's and outspeeds.
20 Nidorina 2HKO's Clefairy and 5HKO's Miltank but Miltank 3HKO's and outspeeds.
Nido's best move for Morty is Mud Slap so you're better off just switching around and letting it curse itself.
28 Nidoking loses 1v1 to Dewgong if it uses an Icy Wind and 2 Auroro Beams, being 2HKO's and 3HKO. He 3HKO's Piloswine with Fire Punch but takes 89/92 with Blizzard, so it might even be a roll to 1HKO. Icy Wind into Blizzard let's it effectively 1hKO
28 Nidoqueen needs the same amount of hits to KO all 3 and the extra bulk doesn't make a noticeable difference.
29 Both King and Queen outspeed and 2HKO Primape and 3HKO Poliwrath but Poliwrath 2HKO's with Surf. Any damage from Primape would make it a 1HKO
29 Queen 1HKO's Magnemite and 3HKO's Steelix who 3HKO's back. You need to be careful not to activate healing AI or you lose 1v1
29 King has it's first advantage over Queen, being able to 2hKO Steelix.
30 King and Queen both swept Rocket Silver, Both lost about half HP.
38 Queen can beat all 3 Dragonair but it 4HKO's Kingdra while being 2HKO from full
38 King can only beat 2 Dragonair and is 1HKO by Kingdra
40 Both King and Queen swept Victory Road Silver with very little damage taken.
40 King can only reliably beat one Jynx or Xatu. He doesn't 2HKO Bro and Exeggutor 1HKOs
40 Queen can only reliably beat Eggy or Jynx. 40 Xatu is a speed tie.
40 Both King and Queen sweep Koga if you use Rain Dance + Thunder to negate Double Team. Without buying Thunder you should be able to beat 4/5 with only Venomoth and Crobat being problems. King is noticably better here because his Ice Punch 2HKO's Crobat while Queen's does not.
40 Both King and Queen can sweep all except Machamp. Both beat Champ 1v1 but King loses if he gets crit by Cross Chop and activates Hyper Potion. This is easy enough to play around.
41 King and Queen can beat 1-3 of Karen's Pokemon, depending on how much accuracy and status harm it. If you swap out after Umbreon and Gengar to cure curse and confusion you can take out 4 pretty reliably. King was able to 2HKO Murkrow while Queen couldn't and King can 3HKO Umbeon while Queen is a 4HKO. Queen's bulk is still really nice but King is a little better here because you really want to kill Umbreon quickly.
41 King and Queen can beat pokemon 1v1 but will lose to the next. Queen is only 2HKO'd by Gyarados who usually seems to use Rain Dance and Blizzard Dragonite. I was able to sweep Lance with 4 Hyper Potions if Gyarados used Rain Dance. King performs the same, except for Charizard, who outspeeds and 2HKO's, meaning you can't even beat it with healing items.
King
Good Matchups: Rivals, Chuck, Jasmine, Koga, Bruno, Karen
Ok Matchups: Claire, Lance
Bad Matchups: Whitney, Morty, Pryce, Chuck, Will
Queen
Good Matchups: Rivals, Chuck, Jasmine, Clair, Koga, Bruno
Ok Matchups: Karen, Lance
Bad Matchups: Whitney, Morty, Pryce, Chuck, Will
Both Nidos perform similarly poor against Whitney, Morty, Pryce, Chuck and Will. Both Nidos perform similarly strong against Jasmine and Bruno.
The main differences were that King was better against Jasmine, Koga and Karen while Queen did better against Clair and Lance. However these differences weren't big enough that they should not share a tier. They never really feel that strong, mostly using 75 BP moves off their weaker offensive stat usually and they need so many TM's and a Moon Stone that I would rather see them in C, but B is understandable.
11 Growlithe swept Falkner only losing 15/34 HP with a flinch on Pidgey.
15 Growlithe I swept Bugsy, losing 1/3 HP while 3HKOing Scyther.
15 GrowlitheI swept Silver, losing 1/3 HP while 3HKOing Bayleef.
19 Growlith's Dig 3HKO's Clefairy. Miltank outspeeds and 2HKO's with Stomp. Dig looks like a 7HKO
19 Arcanine's Dig 5-6HKO's Miltank while it 3-4HKO's back depending on move choice
24 Growlithe only outspeeds and 1HKO's Gastly, 2HKOing the rest.
24 Arcanine outspeeds all and 1HKO's all except Gengar, who it 2HKO's
28 Arcanine swept Pryce, but I did get through Dewgong's rests with a flinch. Ember 3HKO Piloswine who can't do much back
29 Arcanine 2HKO's Primape and 4HKO's Poliwrath with Return/Headbutt. Poliwrath 2HKO's first.
29 Arcanine 1HKO's Magnemites but loses to 3 Rock Throw if you try to just beat it with just Ember. Fire Blast is a 1HKO or you can use 1 Dig and 2 Ember to not activate healing AI.
30 Arcanine can sweep Rocket Rival losing half HP
38 Arcanine can beat the 3 Dragonair but Kingdra 2HKO's with Surf. I couldn't tell if Return was a 3 or 4HKO.
40 Arcanine swept Victory Road rival even though I hit myself in confusion twice.
41 Arcanine can beat 4 of Will's Pokemon with only needing Fire Blast for Exeggutor.
41 Arcanine can sweep without Fire Blast with a Psncureberry but it depends how much you miss. Fire Blast does make it more consistent. Swift would have helped but I deleted it. Beating 4 members is very consistent, wanting something else to take Crobat or Muk to avoid being Toxic'd
41 Arcanine can beat the 3 Hitmons or it can beat Top, Machamp and Onix if it hits 3 Fire Blast. It beats Machamp if it hits
2/3 FireBlast but loses 1v1 without Fire Blast.
41 Arcanine can sweep Karen if it has Fire Blast and switches out to clear Curse. Otherwise it'll beat 3.
41 Arcanine 3HKO's Gyarados, but lives a rain boosted Surf so there's a decent chance to win. Aerodactyl 2HKOs while Fire Blast looks like a 3HKO. Return is a 3HKO on Dragonite and Charizard so you can beat 1 from full. The 50 Dragonite 2HKO's with outrage. With 2 Hyper Potions and a Full Restore I was able to beat Gyarados, 2 Dragonite and Charizard.
Good Matchups: Rivals, Falkner, Bugsy, Morty, Pryce, Jasmine, Will, and Koga
Ok Matchups: Clair, Bruno, Karen
Bad Matchups: Whitney, Chuck,
Overall Growlithe plays very similarly to Cyndaquil. Growlithe starts off better than Cyndaquil except for Whitney if you beat her with Rollout. From there it evolves then stays better until Cyndaquil reaches Typhlosion, which won't be until Clair. Arcanine does better against Clair and then they perform similarly in the Elite 4 but Typhlosion should be a little better.
If these were the only differences I'd say they're about as viable as each other but Growlithe has a few disadvantages. It's a 10% encounter with a 25% capture rate and 50% chance to Roar if you try to weaken it or fail to catch it. To be a good matchup against Morty you need to backtrack for the Fire Stone before Fly. You also need Fire Blast and Return a lot more because Typhlosion get Fire Punch and Thunder Punch.
I do consider Cyndaquil to be one of the better B ranks though and feel that Growlithe deserves to be one of the bad B ranks. It fits much better among those Pokemon than the much worse ones in C rank.
28 Starmie can sweep Pryce if you have Thunder at this point but otherwise you don't get through Dewgong's Rest withoutPP Stalling. The other 2 aren't a problem.
29 Starmie swept Chuck easily. I don't know if it was needed but I used 2 Harden on Primeape. Surf 5HKO's Poliwrath but it 6HKO's back and you can Recover off the damage.
29 Starmie 1HKO all of Jasmine.
30 Starmie swept Rocket Rival, being 3HKO'd by Razor Leaf but you can easily recover and finish it when it uses Reflect.
38 Starmie needs a PRZcure and Thunder to sweep Clair. You can beat all 3 Dragonair or beat Kingdra 1v1 but only if you aren't paralyzed. If you don't have Thunder you'll probably need Swift as it seems to use smokeskreen a lot and you already need to use 6 Icy Wind on the Dragonairs.
40 Starmie swepty Victory Road Silver but would have lost if one of the 2 Razor Leaves crit.
40 Starmie can sweep Will with Thunder but loses to Slowbro without it.
40 Starmie sweeps Koga, either setting up Harden on Foretress and Surfing everything or using Rain Dance and Thunder.
41 Starmie sweeps Bruno if you have Recover or Harden. If you have Rain Dance/Thunder/Surf/Icy Wind you'll beat 4/5.
41 Starmie usually loses to Umbreon unless you get lucky as Feint Atttack does 45% and Surf is a 4HKO. Vileplume and Murkrow are both 3HKO's but they 2HKO you first and you don't quite 1HKO Houndoom, who does 1HKO you. but it 2HKO's you first
41 Starmie sweeps Lance if you only get 1 Thunderwave. You 2HKO everything and Thunder doesn't 1HKO. You can use Hardens on Gyarados and come out with full HP by Recovering after a Hyper Beam to finish it off which you need to do to survive Thunder Dragonite. From there nothing can 2HKO you so just use Paralyze cures if they decide to use multiple Thunder Waves and it's a win.
Good Matchups: Rivals, Chuck, Jasmine, Clair, Will, Koga, Bruno, Lance
Ok Matchups: Pryce,
Bad Matchups: Karen
Starmie should be A tier. Decent bulk and Recover lets it sweep so many fights. It has one bad matchup in Karen and requires backtracking for the Water Stone and wants the Thunder TM but it's only needed for Kingdra and Slowbro. Kingdra is one of the 2 hardest Pokemon to beat 1v1 so the ability to do so at the cost of Thunder is an upside to me. Without these downsides I could even see it being S tier. Being able to solo Lance at 41 is too impressive to be less than A.

TLDR:
Nidos->C or B
Growlithe (Crystal)->B
Staryu (Crystal)->A

Edit: Thinking more about Nidos I'd rather see them in C but B is understandable.
 
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I did a run with both Nidos as they were brought up but never tested in the last thread as well as Growlithe and Staryu as I disagreed with Aegon but thought they might deserve to move up one tier.

20 Nidorino 2HKO's Clefairy and 4HKO's Miltank but Miltank 3HKO's and outspeeds.
20 Nidorina 2HKO's Clefairy and 5HKO's Miltank but Miltank 3HKO's and outspeeds.
Nido's best move for Morty is Mud Slap so you're better off just switching around and letting it curse itself.
28 Nidoking loses 1v1 to Dewgong if it uses an Icy Wind and 2 Auroro Beams, being 2HKO's and 3HKO. He 3HKO's Piloswine with Fire Punch but takes 89/92 with Blizzard, so it might even be a roll to 1HKO. Icy Wind into Blizzard let's it effectively 1hKO
28 Nidoqueen needs the same amount of hits to KO all 3 and the extra bulk doesn't make a noticeable difference.
29 Both King and Queen outspeed and 2HKO Primape and 3HKO Poliwrath but Poliwrath 2HKO's with Surf. Any damage from Primape would make it a 1HKO
29 Queen 1HKO's Magnemite and 3HKO's Steelix who 3HKO's back. You need to be careful not to activate healing AI or you lose 1v1
29 King has it's first advantage over Queen, being able to 2hKO Steelix.
30 King and Queen both swept Rocket Silver, Both lost about half HP.
38 Queen can beat all 3 Dragonair but it 4HKO's Kingdra while being 2HKO from full
38 King can only beat 2 Dragonair and is 1HKO by Kingdra
40 Both King and Queen swept Victory Road Silver with very little damage taken.
40 King can only reliably beat one Jynx or Xatu. He doesn't 2HKO Bro and Exeggutor 1HKOs
40 Queen can only reliably beat Eggy or Jynx. 40 Xatu is a speed tie.
40 Both King and Queen sweep Koga if you use Rain Dance + Thunder to negate Double Team. Without buying Thunder you should be able to beat 4/5 with only Venomoth and Crobat being problems. King is noticably better here because his Ice Punch 2HKO's Crobat while Queen's does not.
40 Both King and Queen can sweep all except Machamp. Both beat Champ 1v1 but King loses if he gets crit by Cross Chop and activates Hyper Potion. This is easy enough to play around.
41 King and Queen can beat 1-3 of Karen's Pokemon, depending on how much accuracy and status harm it. If you swap out after Umbreon and Gengar to cure curse and confusion you can take out 4 pretty reliably. King was able to 2HKO Murkrow while Queen couldn't and King can 3HKO Umbeon while Queen is a 4HKO. Queen's bulk is still really nice but King is a little better here because you really want to kill Umbreon quickly.
41 King and Queen can beat pokemon 1v1 but will lose to the next. Queen is only 2HKO'd by Gyarados who usually seems to use Rain Dance and Blizzard Dragonite. I was able to sweep Lance with 4 Hyper Potions if Gyarados used Rain Dance. King performs the same, except for Charizard, who outspeeds and 2HKO's, meaning you can't even beat it with healing items.
Both Nidos perform similarly poor against Whitney, Morty, Pryce, Chuck and Will. Both Nidos perform similarly strong against Jasmine and Bruno.
The main differences were that King was better against Jasmine, Koga and Karen while Queen did better against Clair and Lance. However these differences weren't big enough that they should not share a tier. They both could be B or C, given the heavy use of TM's and needing a Moon Stone.
11 Growlithe swept Falkner only losing 15/34 HP with a flinch on Pidgey.
15 Growlithe I swept Bugsy, losing 1/3 HP while 3HKOing Scyther.
15 GrowlitheI swept Silver, losing 1/3 HP while 3HKOing Bayleef.
19 Growlith's Dig 3HKO's Clefairy. Miltank outspeeds and 2HKO's with Stomp. Dig looks like a 7HKO
19 Arcanine's Dig 5-6HKO's Miltank while it 3-4HKO's back depending on move choice
24 Growlithe only outspeeds and 1HKO's Gastly, 2HKOing the rest.
24 Arcanine outspeeds all and 1HKO's all except Gengar, who it 2HKO's
28 Arcanine swept Pryce, but I did get through Dewgong's rests with a flinch. Ember 3HKO Piloswine who can't do much back
29 Arcanine 2HKO's Primape and 4HKO's Poliwrath with Return/Headbutt. Poliwrath 2HKO's first.
29 Arcanine 1HKO's Magnemites but loses to 3 Rock Throw if you try to just beat it with just Ember. Fire Blast is a 1HKO or you can use 1 Dig and 2 Ember to not activate healing AI.
30 Arcanine can sweep Rocket Rival losing half HP
38 Arcanine can beat the 3 Dragonair but Kingdra 2HKO's with Surf. I couldn't tell if Return was a 3 or 4HKO.
40 Arcanine swept Victory Road rival even though I hit myself in confusion twice.
41 Arcanine can beat 4 of Will's Pokemon with only needing Fire Blast for Exeggutor.
41 Arcanine can sweep without Fire Blast with a Psncureberry but it depends how much you miss. Fire Blast does make it more consistent. Swift would have helped but I deleted it. Beating 4 members is very consistent, wanting something else to take Crobat or Muk to avoid being Toxic'd
41 Arcanine can beat the 3 Hitmons or it can beat Top, Machamp and Onix if it hits 3 Fire Blast. It beats Machamp if it hits
2/3 FireBlast but loses 1v1 without Fire Blast.
41 Arcanine can sweep Karen if it has Fire Blast and switches out to clear Curse. Otherwise it'll beat 3.
41 Arcanine 3HKO's Gyarados, but lives a rain boosted Surf so there's a decent chance to win. Aerodactyl 2HKOs while Fire Blast looks like a 3HKO. Return is a 3HKO on Dragonite and Charizard so you can beat 1 from full. The 50 Dragonite 2HKO's with outrage. With 2 Hyper Potions and a Full Restore I was able to beat Gyarados, 2 Dragonite and
Charizard.
Good Matchups: Rivals, Falkner, Bugsy, Morty, Pryce, Jasmine, Will, and Koga
Ok Matchups: Clair, Bruno, Karen
Bad Matchups: Whitney, Chuck,
Overall Growlithe plays very similarly to Cyndaquil. Growlithe starts off better than Cyndaquil except for Whitney if you beat her with Rollout. From there it evolves then stays better until Cyndaquil reaches Typhlosion, which won't be until Clair. Arcanine does better against Clair and then they perform similarly in the Elite 4 but Typhlosion should be a little better.
If these were the only differences I'd say they're about as viable as each other but Growlithe has a few disadvantages. It's a 10% encounter with a 25% capture rate and 50% chance to Roar if you try to weaken it or fail to catch it. To be a good matchup against Morty you need to backtrack for the Fire Stone before Fly. You also need Fire Blast and Return a lot more because Typhlosion get Fire Punch and Thunder Punch.
I do consider Cyndaquil to be one of the better B ranks though and feel that Growlithe deserves to be one of the bad B ranks. It fits much better among those Pokemon than the much worse ones in C rank.
28 Starmie can sweep Pryce if you have Thunder at this point but otherwise you don't get through Dewgong's Rest withoutPP Stalling. The other 2 aren't a problem.
29 Starmie swept Chuck easily. I don't know if it was needed but I used 2 Harden on Primeape. Surf 5HKO's Poliwrath but it 6HKO's back and you can Recover off the damage.
29 Starmie 1HKO all of Jasmine.
30 Starmie swept Rocket Rival, being 3HKO'd by Razor Leaf but you can easily recover and finish it when it uses Reflect.
38 Starmie needs a PRZcure and Thunder to sweep Clair. You can beat all 3 Dragonair or beat Kingdra 1v1 but only if you aren't paralyzed. If you don't have Thunder you'll probably need Swift as it seems to use smokeskreen a lot and you already need to use 6 Icy Wind on the Dragonairs.
40 Starmie swepty Victory Road Silver but would have lost if one of the 2 Razor Leaves crit.
40 Starmie can sweep Will with Thunder but loses to Slowbro without it.
40 Starmie sweeps Koga, either setting up Harden on Foretress and Surfing everything or using Rain Dance and Thunder.
41 Starmie sweeps Bruno if you have Recover or Harden. If you have Rain Dance/Thunder/Surf/Icy Wind you'll beat 4/5.
41 Starmie usually loses to Umbreon unless you get lucky as Feint Atttack does 45% and Surf is a 4HKO. Vileplume and Murkrow are both 3HKO's but they 2HKO you first and you don't quite 1HKO Houndoom, who does 1HKO you. but it 2HKO's you first
41 Starmie sweeps Lance if you only get 1 Thunderwave. You 2HKO everything and Thunder doesn't 1HKO. You can use Hardens on Gyarados and come out with full HP by Recovering after a Hyper Beam to finish it off which you need to do to survive Thunder Dragonite. From there nothing can 2HKO you so just use Paralyze cures if they decide to use multiple Thunder Waves and it's a win.
Good Matchups: Rivals, Chuck, Jasmine, Clair, Will, Koga, Bruno, Lance
Ok Matchups: Pryce,
Bad Matchups: Karen
Starmie should be A tier. Decent bulk and Recover lets it sweep so many fights. It has one bad matchup in Karen and requires backtracking for the Water Stone and wants the Thunder TM but it's only needed for Kingdra and Slowbro. Kingdra is one of the 2 hardest Pokemon to beat 1v1 so the ability to do so at the cost of Thunder is an upside to me. Without these downsides I could even see it being S tier. Being able to solo Lance at 41 is too impressive to be less than A.

TLDR:
Nidos->B or C
Growlithe (Crystal)->B
Staryu (Crystal)->A
Interesting results. I more or less agree, though I'd rank each mon (the Nidos included) one tier up.

I also think it's good to mention that the Nidos and Arcanine can technically be obtained before Whitney and do pretty well against her (my Arcanine demolished her in my logs), and Starmie can be obtained before Morty technically (and in my logs, did well against him too). The backtrack isn't bad at these points given you have a Bicycle and Repel access, certainly not for Starmie given the Sudowoodo is gone then.
 
Interesting results. I more or less agree, though I'd rank each mon (the Nidos included) one tier up.

I also think it's good to mention that the Nidos and Arcanine can technically be obtained before Whitney and do pretty well against her (my Arcanine demolished her in my logs), and Starmie can be obtained before Morty technically (and in my logs, did well against him too). The backtrack isn't bad at these points given you have a Bicycle and Repel access, certainly not for Starmie given the Sudowoodo is gone then.
I don't think backtracking for stones before clearing Sudowoodo is considered viable to anyone else besides you but if others do I'll reconsider it. In your log Arcanine was at level 21 because you only had 2 pokemon and it still 5HKO'd Miltank while being 3HKO by stomp or 3 Rollouts. I'd consider this an ok matchup, not demolishing. It sounds like you even needed a Gold Berry to do that well. Honestly I should have tested Staryu but I didn't expect it to be worth going to Olivine and back for. You can't get the Water Stone without Surf and Staryu doesn't have great stats before evolving.
 
I don't think backtracking for stones before clearing Sudowoodo is considered viable to anyone else besides you but if others do I'll reconsider it
Fair enough.

In your log Arcanine was at level 21 because you only had 2 pokemon and it still 5HKO'd Miltank while being 3HKO by stomp or 3 Rollouts
Hmm...is that true? :psysly:

Arcanine (L21): Trekked back to New Bark on my Bicycle, buying 8 Repel beforehand, collected any hidden item I could get that I couldn't get before due to not having the right TM, got Mom to change the time, and I immediately got a call from the boy holding the fiery rock. I picked it up.

Headbutt reliably 2HKOes on Clefairy (I ended up flinching her on try 1 and 3, critical hitting for a OHKO on 2 lol). I cleanly outpace Miltank, admittedly can only 5KO...but not a problem. I LITERALLY defeated Miltank on attempt 1 by firing Headbutt after Headbutt, flinching twice and tanking both a Stomp and a Rollout hit one along the path. I never even got under green HP. Attempt 2 had Miltank successfully bring me to the yellow with Rollout, only for me to heal with a Gold Berry and take her out anyway. I had Dig and planned to utilize it for resetting Rollout, but I didn't even need it. Try 3 had both Miltank and my Arcie land a critical hit on each other through Stomp and Headbutt respectively but I had a Gold Berry heal me and enable me to deal a finishing blow with Headbutt. Terrifyingly good matchup - I'd argue no lower than S. If you plan on being pedantic, I can take an A.

Idk, I beat her 3 out of 3 times, not even needing any single access TMs (didn't even use Return, tbf I couldn't due to lack of happiness), and this is THE toughest boss in the game, one of them at least. Again, I'm willing to settle for less than a S on this matchup, an A sounds reasonable to me.

A 5KO isn't nearly as bad as it sounds if you A) outpace the opponent and B) can flinch them to the point they have a hard time touching you. Again, if you use TMs like Dig at all, you pretty much make Rollout a joke by forcing her to reset, and I never even needed it here.

I'd consider this an ok matchup, not demolishing. It sounds like you even needed a Gold Berry to do that well
I did need a Gold Berry, you are correct, but given that you can easily obtain one through the Machop trade (and it's the only time you need one), it doesn't sound like a real negative IMO. Besides, the Bug Catching Contest gives you access to more Gold Berries if you really care for them.

Honestly I should have tested Staryu but I didn't expect it to be worth going to Olivine and back for
Starmie did pretty good against Morty IIRC, and it also helps you get them up to speed that much faster.

You can't get the Water Stone without Surf and Staryu doesn't have great stats before evolving
Actually, you don't need Surf to get the Water Stone. Mt. Mortar is open for travel to the other side in Crystal.
 
When you realize you forgot to put in the descriptions for the tiers. I’ll edit those in when I’m off work.

Headbutt reliably 2HKOes on Clefairy (I ended up flinching her on try 1 and 3, critical hitting for a OHKO on 2 lol). I cleanly outpace Miltank, admittedly can only 5KO...but not a problem. I LITERALLY defeated Miltank on attempt 1 by firing Headbutt after Headbutt, flinching twice and tanking both a Stomp and a Rollout hit one along the path. I never even got under green HP. Attempt 2 had Miltank successfully bring me to the yellow with Rollout, only for me to heal with a Gold Berry and take her out anyway. I had Dig and planned to utilize it for resetting Rollout, but I didn't even need it. Try 3 had both Miltank and my Arcie land a critical hit on each other through Stomp and Headbutt respectively but I had a Gold Berry heal me and enable me to deal a finishing blow with Headbutt. Terrifyingly good matchup - I'd argue no lower than S. If you plan on being pedantic, I can take an A.
This isn’t A tier. This is more akin to a B tier or even C tier showing. A 5HKO is ideally not an A tier mon, however it is Miltank and around this time you don’t really have a lot of Pokémon closing that BST down. What really does hurt this however is the reliance on the Gold Berry. From what it looks to be is that if a tester does not have the Berry, Arcanine has a very real case of losing this fight from Rollout if you don’t flinch. If you also try to use Dig, you run into another issue. You’ve effectively used 2 TMs on Growlithe. Headbutt and Dig. Too many TMs is a sign of a Pokémon needing investment to function. Usually how I view this is 2 TMs is fine, but anymore and it becomes an issue. Seeing as Arcanine would most likely be using Headbutt, Return, and Dig during its life time, it’s got a clear issue with TM Reliance.
 
When you realize you forgot to put in the descriptions for the tiers. I’ll edit those in when I’m off work.



This isn’t A tier. This is more akin to a B tier or even C tier showing. A 5HKO is ideally not an A tier mon, however it is Miltank and around this time you don’t really have a lot of Pokémon closing that BST down. What really does hurt this however is the reliance on the Gold Berry. From what it looks to be is that if a tester does not have the Berry, Arcanine has a very real case of losing this fight from Rollout if you don’t flinch. If you also try to use Dig, you run into another issue. You’ve effectively used 2 TMs on Growlithe. Headbutt and Dig. Too many TMs is a sign of a Pokémon needing investment to function. Usually how I view this is 2 TMs is fine, but anymore and it becomes an issue. Seeing as Arcanine would most likely be using Headbutt, Return, and Dig during its life time, it’s got a clear issue with TM Reliance.
Headbutt is a TM you can get multiple times over from Goldenrod, and you get one for free in Ilex Forest right before that. It's not an issue IMO. Ditto for Return, the only caveat being you have to get Arcanine happy enough for it, and that'll happen eventually. The only TMs Arcanine must have are Fire Blast and Sunny Day AFAIK, as his natural movepool is kind of sorry given his lack of access to Fire-type moves at reasonable points.

I'm not sure if the reliance on the Gold Berry is a huge mark against it given how easy it is to obtain in Crystal (Abra is cheap from the Game Corner and trading him/her in for Machop requires no additional cost). The only single-use TM here is Dig, and I didn't really need it to beat Whitney (Bite also outperformed it or had a similar performance against Morty btw).
 
Headbutt is a TM you can get multiple times over from Goldenrod, and you get one for free in Ilex Forest right before that. It's not an issue IMO. Ditto for Return, the only caveat being you have to get Arcanine happy enough for it, and that'll happen eventually. The only TMs Arcanine must have are Fire Blast and Sunny Day AFAIK, as his natural movepool is kind of sorry given his lack of access to Fire-type moves at reasonable points.

I'm not sure if the reliance on the Gold Berry is a huge mark against it given how easy it is to obtain in Crystal (Abra is cheap from the Game Corner and trading him/her in for Machop requires no additional cost). The only single-use TM here is Dig, and I didn't really need it to beat Whitney (Bite also outperformed it or had a similar performance against Morty btw).
I understand Headbutt. It’s just simply the amount that Arcanine does require to function is a bit much imo. Gold Berry isn’t a huge mark generally but trying to say the performance is S/A is a pretty tough case to even put up. Most S/A’s won’t require a Gold Berry to clear out Whitney. They should just be 2HKOing everything she has (or OHKOing at least one of her mons). Unfortunately, the pool of these Pokémon is incredibly small. The ones the immediately come to mind are the Abra Line, Croconaw (however Croc is dependent on Rage pulling through if you want the relatively clean sweep), Onix (Gotta Screech her, she doesn’t really do anything to you though) and Geodude. At best, I view it as a B tier MU for the Dog. At worst a C tier. The sweep is there, but shaky without Berry Support.
 
I'll probably do another run tomorrow because I want to see how well Cubone and Pineco do. If anyone has others they like to see I'd love suggestions but if not I'll pick some myself.
 

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