Lower Tiers GSC Sub-Zero Used Discussion + Resources (Tier Shifts!)

[missangelic]

Approved by Siatam
Format taken from the SS SU and RBY SU threads

Image credit: tetsuya koizumi for the Pokemon TCG - Cosmic Eclipse

GSC SU Discussion Thread​

This thread is dedicated to GSC Sub-Zero Used (SU), which is the lowest unofficial tier on Smogon and below ZU. GSC SU has been supported through the SU community over the last years, and its tierlist is based on the GSC ZU viability resources. We've previously hosted tours through the SU Discord, and now we have this thread for more effortful discussion on the forum!

Pokemon tiered as ZU

Aipom, Bayleef, Charmeleon, Croconaw, Doduo, Dratini, Geodude, Grimer, Ivysaur, Koffing, Magby, Mantine, Meowth, Nidorina, Omanyte, Onix, Parasect, Poliwag, Quilava, Sandshrew, Teddiursa, Tentacool, Togetic, Voltorb, Wartortle, Weepinbell

Currently, SU observes the gap between the C rank and D rank on the most recent ZU viability rankings as the cutoff for ZU.

SUBL

Pokemon/elements banned from SU: Pidgeotto, Smoochum, Swagger

SU also observes the GSC PU Trap Pass ban transitively due to ZU's own transitivity

Viability Ranking Resources

Viability List (outdated with shifts + bans)

New!

Diglett

Slowpoke

Top

Pidgeotto

Smoochum

High

Butterfree

Dratini

Growlithe

Kabuto

Mareep

Natu

Nidorino

Parasect

Sandshrew

Seel

Teddiursa

Mid

Charmander

Horsea

Jigglypuff

Larvitar

Mankey

Phanpy

Rattata

Snubbull

Yanma

Low

Chikorita

Cyndaquil

Ekans

Goldeen

Krabby

Ledyba

Machop

Oddish

Remoraid

Shellder

Skiploom

Spinarak

Venonat

Vulpix

Visual

Personal VR Maker: Link

Speed Tiers

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Boosts​
448​	​	Goldeen​	63​	+2​
436​	​	Growlithe, Horsea​	60​	+2​
416​	​	Ledyba​	55​	+2​
312​	​	Kabuto​	50​	+1​
288​	​	Diglett, Yanma​	95​	0​
270​	​	Larvitar​	41​	+1​
267​	​	Phanpy​	40​	+1​
258​	​	Skiploom​	80​	0​
242​	​	Rattata​	72​	0​
238​	​	Butterfree, Mankey, Natu​	70​	0​
228​	​	Charmander, Cyndaquil, Nidorino, Remoraid, Vulpix​	65​	0​
224​	​	Goldeen​	63​	0​
218​	​	Growlithe, Horsea​	60​	0​
208​	​	Ekans, Kabuto, Ledyba, Psyduck​	55​	0​
198​	​	Krabby, Swinub​	50​	0​
190​	​	Yanma​	95​	-1​
188​	​	Chikorita, Seel, Venonat​	45​	0​
180​	​	Larvitar​	41​	0​
178​	​	Phanpy, Shellder​	40​	0​
168​	​	Machop, Mareep​	35​	0​
158​	​	Oddish, Snubbull, Spinarak​	30​	0​
150​	​	Nidorino​	65​	-1​
147​	​	Goldeen​	63​	-1​
144​	​	Yanma​	95​	-2​
138​	​	Jigglypuff​	20​	0​
137​	​	Ledyba​	55​	-1​
130​	​	Krabby​	50​	-1​
128​	​	Slowpoke​	15​	0​

Role Compendium

Utility Roles

Support Move Users
Baton Pass
|
Encore
|

Light Screen
|
Nightmare

Reflect
|
Misc.
(Heal Bell)




Offensive Roles

Attackers
Physical Attackers
|
Special Attackers
|

Mixed Attackers
|


Setup
Agility
|
Ancient Power


Curse (typical/viable users)
|
Screech
|
Substitute (typical/viable users)
|
Sunny Day
|
Swords Dance

|
Misc. setup move users
(Belly Drum), (Rain Dance) |(Barrier)

Other Offensive Move Users
Explosion
|
Quick Attack
|
Thief
|



Defensive Roles

Anti-Setup
Haze
|
Perish Song

Roar/Whirlwind


Status Spreaders
Paralysis
Thunder Wave

Glare/Stun Spore
|
Body Slam
*|
Thunder

Zap Cannon

Poison
Sludge Bomb
|
Toxic (typical/viable users)

Sleep
Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder
|
Hypnosis
|
Sing

Other status spreaders
Leech Seed
|
Freeze (Ice Beam)
|

Challenge Code

/challenge gen2zu @@@ -Aipom, -Ariados, -Charmeleon, -Croconaw, -Doduo, -Dratini, -Grimer, -Ivysaur, -Koffing, -Magby, -Mantine, -Meowth, -Nidorina, -Omanyte, -Onix, -Parasect, -Ponyta, -Quilava, -Sandshrew, -Teddiursa, -Tentacool, -Togetic, -Weepinbell, -Pidgeotto, -Smoochum, -Swagger

Sample Teams

Please note that tier shifts and bans were very recent, so sample teams are still under development and being added!
Psybird Spam
Lead Kabuto FWG
Lead Curse Snubbull
Normal Spam

Council: missangelic (SU leader), sleid, Lillith Plays, Gerrychu29, Zpice
SU Discord
Other SU Old Gens threads: SS / SM / ORAS / BW / DPP / ADV / GSC / RBY

 

[missangelic]

Reserved

 

[missangelic]

You may now post!

 

[missangelic]

I'll break the ice by sharing about some of my thoughts on the tier and its recent tier shifts, which rose all of Dratini, Parasect, Sandshrew, and Teddiursa and dropped Diglett and Slowpoke into GSC SU.


Smoochum is the most potent Pokemon in the tier offensively, finding 2HKOs and OHKOs against most of the tier. Ice / Psychic is incredible offensively, only resisted by Smoochum itself and newcomer Slowpoke. Smoochum remains a major threat offensively, and it has the room to fit Shadow Ball for opposing Smoochum and Hidden Power Electric to 3HKO Slowpoke. Diglett has a lot of potential as a new drop that's faster and can do at least 60% to Smoochum, but the tier is still strapped for reliable offensive responses to Smoochum besides finishing it off with something faster or praying you get a paralysis off on it.



Pidgeotto also remains dominant after the tier shifts. Dratini often ran boltbeam coverage and potentially Reflect to ease its team's matchup against Pidgeotto, Parasect could tolerate Double-Edge and heal with Synthesis, and Teddiursa could use Curse to pressure Pidgeotto. Diglett is a rare new revenge killer that can finish off Pidgeotto, but its Rock Slide only does 33.4% minimum to non-Hidden Power variants, which is underwhelming. Slowpoke is a rare Pokemon that isn't likely to be 3HKOed by Double-Edge, but it's quite passive in front of Pidgeotto. The tier shifts have made Mareep better, which can help, but Pidgeotto still seems really tough to survive and bring down at the moment. RIP to Wing Attack sets. I can see Nidorino becoming even more important to dealing with Pidgeotto now that Parasect isn't around. Rattata has some competition with Diglett around, but the departure of Parasect opens it up a lot more.



Diglett is a very cute new addition to SU that differentiates itself from Yanma with a strong STAB move and access to Substitute. Its bad bulk does it few favors for switching in, especially when Nidorino and Mareep commonly run Ice-type coverage. Pidgeotto's (and Rattata's) tendency to wear itself down with Double-Edge recoil works in Diglett's favor, but Diglett's more middling power is going to be an issue if threats like Smoochum and Natu haven't been weakened. Phanpy is a lot more reliable as a switch-in to Mareep than Diglett, and its better bulk and lack of competition with Sandshrew make it a lot more relevant too. Phanpy's bulk actually makes it a pretty good wall to Diglett as well.


:
I'm very excited to have Slowpoke as a bulky Water-type that finally breaks the mold Seel has been growing in the tier. Slowpoke's Body Slam is just that little bit stronger, but Slowpoke can also run Thunder Wave for more direct paralysis, and it's quite good at spreading paralysis as a Water-type. Slowpoke's extra physical bulk is handy against Pidgeotto as well as Ground-types like Larvitar and Phanpy. Mankey has a lot more reason to run Thunder with Parasect gone and Slowpoke around. Slowpoke's Psychic isn't very strong, but it can be offensively relevant against Nidorino, Oddish, and Fighting-types. Seel might still be the better Curse user between the two of it and Slowpoke because of its better special bulk. Seel's special bulk is also still relevant for Smoochum, Growlithe, and Horsea. Horsea in particular would love for teams to stop running Seel in favor of a Pokemon that is 3HKOed by Hidden Power Electric, especially now that it doesn't have to deal with Parasect. However, I think Slowpoke is going to establish itself as a headlining bulky Water-type right next to Seel for the reasons I've already listed and more.



With Parasect's rise comes some changes. Chikorita and Oddish have the most to gain from the departure of their biggest competitor. Chikorita could really thrive by flaunting its Ground resistance and Rock neutrality in the faces of Phanpy and freshman Diglett. Oddish has to contend with a very different SU than it had in mid-2024 now that Smoochum and Natu are around, but it still has Sludge Bomb, Grass STAB, and Stun Spore to put a lot of the tier under pressure. Mareep might be incensed to run Hidden Power Grass to hit Larvitar harder now that Dratini is gone, but I think it should keep running Hidden Power Ice to stay relevant against the Grass-types I'm expecting will rise from their Parasect understudy roles. Growlithe and Charmander will miss Parasect, their favorite prey, but if other Grass-types fill the vacuum, they'll remain in work. Additionally, both of them enjoy Dratini's departure taking away a defensive answer to their Fire Blast + Hidden Power Grass coverage.



Teddiursa was a major threat that was overlooked during the more chaotic phase of ZU, but it's returned to the tier to be a top threat there. Snubbull is a long-time SU veteran that has a very similar stat spread and movepool, giving up Earthquake for options like Heal Bell, Reflect, and Present. Snubbull's lower Speed is a little bit of a liability in a metagame where Mareep has become even better, but I do think it's a pretty easy shoe-in for what Teddiursa was doing before, and little else can perform its role. Jigglypuff isn't exactly the same as a Teddiursa understudy as Snubbull given it's not as strong, but it does have more utility between Thunder Wave and Body Slam, especially relevant against fast threats like Smoochum and Pidgeotto. Kabuto loves Teddiursa rising and taking its Earthquake coverage with it, and its Surf is a reliable 3HKO against Snubbull thanks to the latter's lower Special Defense. Larvitar also enjoys Teddiursa's rise, and it's a much more secure switch-in to Present and Electric-type coverage variants of Snubbull.

I'll use this last part to discuss some underrated or underexplored gems:
Swinub caught my attention after a long period of being seen as irrelevant, mostly because SU did not have relevant Electric-types (sorry Pichu) before Mareep. Its ability to switch into Hidden Power Ice variants of Mareep is nice, and 50 Speed does let it get the jump on Mareep, Sandshrew, and Grass-types. However, its stats are still pretty bad overall, limiting it to this one role.
Goldeen is really cool as a Swords Dance sweeper, especially one with access to Agility and the bulk to set up in the face of opposing Water-types. Parasect was much bulkier than any of the Grass-types that remain, and Goldeen really enjoys chip damage on Mareep. Krabby has similar traits, but it lacks Goldeen's bulk for setting up or access to Agility.
Ekans was written off for a while after the tier received actual Psychic-types, but I've carried a small torch for it in the era of Nidorino and Parasect. Now that Parasect is gone and the tier is poised to potentially use other Grass-types, Ekans might salvage some of its older niche.

This next step for GSC SU looks really cool, and I'm looking forward to reading others' thoughts about this hidden gem of a meta!

 

[cringing in chat]

seels my goat

 

[missangelic]

Hi! The GSC SU council will be looking at tiering action on two Pokemon: Pidgeotto and Smoochum




If you've read my previous post, let alone played GSC SU, you'll have seen and felt the impact that Pidgeotto and Smoochum have. I'll be discussing Pidgeotto first, as it's had a bit more history in the tier to cover. In the 2024 GSC SU metagame, we reached a point where Pidgeotto was too much for most teams to handle. Fast Normal-types being good in GSC lower tiers is not a surprise, but Pidgeotto is an opportunist of how few reliable answers there are to fast Normal-types left this far down. Nidorino can switch in and wall Pidgeotto... until it takes a critical hit, has its Leftovers stolen, takes any prior damage, or just runs out of its measly 8 Morning Sun PP, while Pidgeotto just gets to either dig in and waste Nidorino's PP or play hit-and-run by forcing Nidorino to heal while it gets to bring in a teammate for free. Kabuto and Larvitar are both ruined by Hidden Power Grass variants, sets that have not gone out of style, and not much else has really made Pidgeotto easier to stomach. My belief is that the metagame will improve immensely with Pidgeotto being gone, as we're really seeing a lot of sequences where games will come down to Pidgeotto Speed ties or Sleep Talk turns, and my goal with GSC SU is to reduce how many games are decided by coinflips and random luck. Rattata and Natu are much more easily managed compared to Pidgeotto because they're hardly as bulky as fast attackers, a metagame I'm looking forward to exploring.


Smoochum has been in GSC SU since the major 2024 tier shifts, and it's stuck around after the minor tier shifts earlier this year. If you've played with Smoochum, you'll have seen how obnoxious it is to try and deal with. Thief, Dream Eater, and Hidden Power Dark sets are capable of punishing and breaking through the two bulky Water-types you'll see on every team just to try and hold back Smoochum. Even these supposedly solid responses to Smoochum can just outright fail with bad luck because of how powerful Smoochum is, as critical hits can cause them to just lose straight up. Crits aside, freezes from Ice Beam or SpDef drops from Psychic can also just render Slowpoke and Seel unable to answer Smoochum anymore. This, of course, has also led to sequences where people just check Smoochum with their own Smoochum by using Shadow Ball and holding their breath during the Speed tie coinflip. Like with what I described with Pidgeotto, this is not a healthy state for the metagame to be in, and I really think the metagame will improve dramatically with Smoochum gone. Natu does not have the same sheer breaking power as Smoochum, and it won't be pulling off bs freezes that basically remove its only checks from the game.

I welcome those who have played GSC SU since shifts to share their thoughts on these Pokemon if they'd like, but our plan is to put up the result on these Pokemon by the weekend. Thanks for reading!

 

[ZeStinky]

im going to crash out if skiploom isnt banned after this

 

[fish1107]

I agree with Miss here and I will add that Smoochum has the ability to just do whatever it wants in its last move slot. Blizzard for extra power,Sing to add even more luck into a mon that's full of it (see Ice beam freeze and Psychic chance to drop sp.def) and Icy Wind to prevent any mons on a double switch from being able to kill and that's just what other people ran. I ran Psych Up on a HO type to prevent curse sweeper from setting up and a Perish Song,Protect and Mean Look to enable Pokemon that like the bulky water’s being removed. So I'm fully for the ban’s of these 2 freaks (I did’t talk about Pidgeotto because it like boring broken but you get the point)

 

[cringing in chat]

In my opinion, pidgeotto has a decent amount of checks but yeah, smoochum is broken and i would partake in a suspect for both

 

[missangelic]

Hi! The GSC SU council has opted to ban both Pidgeotto (5-0) and Smoochum (4-0, 1 abstain). We will be continuing to keep a close eye on the metagame after these two bans, and we will be refreshing our resources in the upcoming weeks to reflect the changes to the metagame. I look forward to reading your thoughts about these bans and the potential trends we may see as a result of them!

 

[ZeStinky]

get ready for the zestinky crash out