Hardest Relative NPC

All of the E4 are rough because their coverage is insane. Galactic is also a threat early on with Purugly and Skunktank, and Cyrus 3 is incredibly hard. In general, the game is one of the hardest games, but for the right reasons (unlike HGSS).
Definitely agree with this. I think you and I have similar feelings about Lance in HGSS, but I'll go as far as to say the first Lance fight in HGSS is the hardest NPC fight I've ever had in a main series Pokémon game. I planned a pretty good team of mostly Johto Pokémon in HeartGold to take down Lance and Red, comprised of: Typhlosion, Gyarados, Heracross, Ampharos, Crobat and Steelix. They were level 40 by the time I reached Lance.

Everything was going according to plan (i.e. Ampharos KOs his Gyarados with Discharge, my Gyarados gets hit by Outrage and retaliates with Avalanche for the KO on his level 50 Dragonite, etc.). I planned it pretty well. But it came down to my Heracross against his Blizzard Dragonite. At which point I'm relying on him to: 1) use Dragon Rush; 2) not miss; 3) not flinch; 4) not crit; and 5) not get a high damage roll. If these five conditions are met, I hit back with Counter for the KO and essentially win the fight. It took several iterations of this fight to meet those conditions.

In the end I didn't feel triumph, I felt relief that this horribly designed fight was finally over. If I'm relying on that much luck to beat a boss, despite planning, there's something seriously wrong. First fight against Lance in HGSS definitely gets my vote for the topic of this thread, for all the wrong reasons.
 
X/Y, Route 5, just outside Lumoise City. The first fight of the route is a double battle with lvl 11 Plusle/Minun. The second battle of the route is a lvl 13 Kadabra. It's fine if you have priority or something with decent SDef, but at that level standing up to STAB Confusion off of base 120 SAtk is not easy. And it's the highest-level oppt on the route, at a time when most players have half a team, all lvl 10. Pokemon needs to signpost better.
 
Youngster Billy from Hoenn's Route 104 was the first trainer I ever lost against and he's just some random kid before Petalburg Woods. I'd never played Pokemon before so I didn't know what Bide did and kept attacking. I won the second time by not attacking. I think it's safe to say that some random guy before the first gym is hard for that point of the game if people lose to them for reasons other than not healing first.

I think the Trainers in BW's Ice Gym deserve mentioning for having Pokemon stronger than the Leader's because they have the Power 95 Ice Beam instead of Frost Breath, which the game won't even use much because it thinks it's Power 40 because it ignores that the guarantee crit makes it effectively 80.


With the right challenge run, any trainer has the possibility of being way worse than any Gym Leader. For example, Fire Red with Status Moves Only lets you only use Leech Seed, Poison Powder/Poison Gas, and Supersonic/Confuse Ray for "offense" moves until after the Rock Tunnel and Picnicker Alicia has 2 Oddish and 2 Bellsprout... She was not fun...


One thing that looks like it's going to hurt is when a trainer in the middle of nowhere has 6 Pokemon... Then that fisherman sends out his first of six Magikarp.
 
Hiker Anthony in GSC. Dude singlehandedly ended many of my Nuzlockes, something even Lance couldn't do as reliably.

His Geodude and Machop are at L11, close to your team in level, and have their STAB moves handy. Both hit very hard and are reasonably tanky, and cover each other nicely. If you don't have a Water or Grass-type, he can be a really nasty foe.

Youngster Billy from Hoenn's Route 104 was the first trainer I ever lost against and he's just some random kid before Petalburg Woods. I'd never played Pokemon before so I didn't know what Bide did and kept attacking. I won the second time by not attacking. I think it's safe to say that some random guy before the first gym is hard for that point of the game if people lose to them for reasons other than not healing first.
Man, I feel you.

Marill (including one you can fight in ORAS very early on, and one in Crystal later) is incredibly dangerous due to Rollout and high bulk for he time.

Very much like Seedot...only NOT attacking can't help you either.
 
Last edited:
1627263206139.png


Veteran Angus from Tapu Village in USUM

Overleveled trainer with three second-stage pseudo-legendaries against player with two underleveled second-stage pseudo-legendaries = defeat.

Due to this guy, I leveled my entire team up to 40 thinking Totem Mimikyu had received a level bump. Turned out... it didn't (in fact, it has a lower level than him), and I was noticeably overleveled for a while.

So not only I had surprise difficulty from three second-stage pseudos with hidden abilities, but annoyance at it making me overlevel.
 
Last edited:
View attachment 360917

Veteran Angus from Tapu Village in USUM

Overleveled trainer with three second-stage pseudo-legendaries against player with two underleveled second-stage pseudo-legendaries = defeat.

Due to this guy, I leveled my entire team up to 40 thinking Totem Mimikyu had received a level bump. Turned out... it didn't (in fact, it has a lower level than him), and I was noticeably overleveled for a while.

So not only I had surprise difficulty from three second-stage pseudos with hidden abilities, but annoyance at it making me overlevel.
Oh I remember this dude! His Pokémon also have good movesets and he's one of the non-boss trainers with an EV'd team. I don't remember if I actually lost to him, but I do remember him being a challenge I wasn't expecting.

At least, IIRC, the battle with him is completely optional (you have to talk with him to start it and he warns you beforehand that he's strong).
 
Veteran Angus from Tapu Village in USUM

Overleveled trainer with three second-stage pseudo-legendaries against player with two underleveled second-stage pseudo-legendaries = defeat.

Due to this guy, I leveled my entire team up to 40 thinking Totem Mimikyu had received a level bump. Turned out... it didn't (in fact, it has a lower level than him), and I was noticeably overleveled for a while.

So not only I had surprise difficulty from three second-stage pseudos with hidden abilities, but annoyance at it making me overlevel.
There's a bunch of those in USUM. They require you talk to them and defeat every trainer on the route first, and they're basically minibosses. Plenty reward you with items, items that are normally battle-facility only. And they demonstrate the items on you first.
 

NuttyRabbit

Banned deucer.
Having played through Platinum for the first time this year, there were a couple of surprisingly tough random trainers (mainly in post game. Certain double battles can be shockingly tough), but the most standout example was Double Team Zac & Jen on Route 210, who come packing a Gyarados and a Raichu, which is already a really strong combo for that point in the game and certainly stronger than just about everything around them on BST alone. But the real kicker is the moves they're packing, with the Raichu packing Thunderbolt and the Gyarados packing both Ice Fang and Aqua Tail, making that power gap between them and the rest of the route trainers (and likely your team) that much wider.

They weren't out and out impossible to beat but they certainly gave me more issues than I was expecting, and I was running a pretty well rounded team
 
Sometime last week I was working on my Pokémon Emerald turned Alpha Sapphire (rip Adobe Flash sites) "nuzlocke" and reached the third Gym battle with Wattson. Pay attention to the quotation marks. That'll be important later. Basically, I had the Exp. Share banned for this run as well as a ban on healing items and a few other things.

Let's just say that his Magnemite always clicks Thunder Wave turn 1 against any bad matchups that aren't a Ground-Type, and things quickly got out of hand. These battles aren't supposed to be difficult, but my point for this post is to mention the difficulty of the rare VoltTurn users in a Nuzlocke setting. Anyone got any takers?
 
Sometime last week I was working on my Pokémon Emerald turned Alpha Sapphire (rip Adobe Flash sites) "nuzlocke" and reached the third Gym battle with Wattson. Pay attention to the quotation marks. That'll be important later. Basically, I had the Exp. Share banned for this run as well as a ban on healing items and a few other things.

Let's just say that his Magnemite always clicks Thunder Wave turn 1 against any bad matchups that aren't a Ground-Type, and things quickly got out of hand. These battles aren't supposed to be difficult, but my point for this post is to mention the difficulty of the rare VoltTurn users in a Nuzlocke setting. Anyone got any takers?
Elesa comes to mind, particularly in B1/W1 when two of her Pokémon are unaffected by Ground moves. She'd be unbearably awful if her Emolga had Thunder Wave, but Volt Switch and Static Paralysis are also annoying.
 
Sometime last week I was working on my Pokémon Emerald turned Alpha Sapphire (rip Adobe Flash sites) "nuzlocke" and reached the third Gym battle with Wattson. Pay attention to the quotation marks. That'll be important later. Basically, I had the Exp. Share banned for this run as well as a ban on healing items and a few other things.

Let's just say that his Magnemite always clicks Thunder Wave turn 1 against any bad matchups that aren't a Ground-Type, and things quickly got out of hand. These battles aren't supposed to be difficult, but my point for this post is to mention the difficulty of the rare VoltTurn users in a Nuzlocke setting. Anyone got any takers?
I really don't like Wattson's difficulty. The only available ground types are Mudkip, Geodude, or Nincada. Nincada loses anyway, Mudkip is a starter and therefore unavailable 2/3rds of all games, and Geodude is a gen 1 mon that everyone has used a half-dozen times by this point in the series. The grass types available all suck, and even if you can wall him to any significant degree, he has Sonic Boom and Supersonic on everything to make that a losing proposition. You could go offensive, except that again there are no ground types and Supersonic makes it hard to use high-attack fighting types. Given that right after this, you get access to a bunch of ground and fire types, it really feels like artificial difficulty where he's only a threat because the player isn't allowed any good options.

Clemont is another Volt Switch user, but he's far easier. Almost all the ground-types in the game show up before him, mostly in the desert, so if a player can't take his TBolts, it's their own choice. Even in a Nuzlocke, you should have /something/ that can wreck him with Bulldoze+Rock Tomb.
 
I really don't like Wattson's difficulty. The only available ground types are Mudkip, Geodude, or Nincada. Nincada loses anyway, Mudkip is a starter and therefore unavailable 2/3rds of all games, and Geodude is a gen 1 mon that everyone has used a half-dozen times by this point in the series. The grass types available all suck, and even if you can wall him to any significant degree, he has Sonic Boom and Supersonic on everything to make that a losing proposition. You could go offensive, except that again there are no ground types and Supersonic makes it hard to use high-attack fighting types. Given that right after this, you get access to a bunch of ground and fire types, it really feels like artificial difficulty where he's only a threat because the player isn't allowed any good options.
Okay, so it's not just me then? Wow... that's actually such a relief to hear :)
 
Geodude is a gen 1 mon that everyone has used a half-dozen times by this point in the series.
  1. Wattson appears in the third generation of Pokemon, so if someone has played every generation prior, they will have used Geodude a maximum of twice. A far cry from six times.
  2. Not everyone has played every generation prior.
  3. Even if you have played every generation prior, "it's an old mon" is still a terrible reason not to use something.
 
Funny, considering I never used it. And I've been playing since Gen I.
Same, I almost never want to use it because it's a trade evolution (I have one system and zero IRL friends to trade with) and you almost always have access to better Ground types. I did use it once, in a playthrough of HG, and it was real bad. It even struggled against the Electric types it was supposed to counter. I get why people aren't exactly thrilled to have it as one of the only available Wattson counters.
 
I've never had problems with any NPC during a normal playthrough but one, so for me the answer is clear.

There's a NPC ubicated in one of the early routes of BW2 with a Dunsparce. I don't remember the details, this was during my first ever pthrough of BW2. In my team I had Snivy with shitty level and moves, a newly catched Riolu with Quick Attack as his only and more damaging move, and the rest by that point were just filler. In conclusion: I had little to no options because I was at the point in the game.

One stage mons can be very bulky and powerful so early (one of the reasons why Whitney's Miltank is so fearsome even tho this challenge is way, way far ahead in comparison with this one I'm talking right now), and that's exactly what happened with this dude's Dunsparce. I think my most powerful mon, the Snivy, was a 6 or 7 hit KO on it, and it started to do Rollout. I had to sacrifice my entire team to have a slim and clutch chance of winning with my almost dead Snivy.
 
I've never had problems with any NPC during a normal playthrough but one, so for me the answer is clear.

There's a NPC ubicated in one of the early routes of BW2 with a Dunsparce. I don't remember the details, this was during my first ever pthrough of BW2. In my team I had Snivy with shitty level and moves, a newly catched Riolu with Quick Attack as his only and more damaging move, and the rest by that point were just filler. In conclusion: I had little to no options because I was at the point in the game.

One stage mons can be very bulky and powerful so early (one of the reasons why Whitney's Miltank is so fearsome even tho this challenge is way, way far ahead in comparison with this one I'm talking right now), and that's exactly what happened with this dude's Dunsparce. I think my most powerful mon, the Snivy, was a 6 or 7 hit KO on it, and it started to do Rollout. I had to sacrifice my entire team to have a slim and clutch chance of winning with my almost dead Snivy.
Weak or medium-weak one-stage Pokémon tend to be really double-edged sword. While they can be a lot useful early game, they fall flat very quickly unless you respect about what they can do. Same applies when used by NPCs; they are nothing to scoff at early on, but since they cannot evolve to be stronger or overall more dangerous later on, they become complete jokes if used by late-game NPCs.

This is especially bad if the weak / medium-weak Pokémon turned out to be found late-game. The fact that Wallace / Juan, the last Gym Leader of Hoenn, uses a Luvdisc is plainly insulting. Wallace did a good choice dropping it at the time of Emerald / ORAS’ Delta Episode!
 
It’s been a while. Let’s talk about Terrible Johto Decision #527: Morty!

1628997477681.jpeg


First thing though: WHY does Morty not have Misdreavus? It was literally the only Ghost type introduced in Johto, but no, let’s put it in Mt. Silver originally because THAT makes sense (yeah remakes it is Cliff Cave but like…still a Misdreavus so…). But I digress.

Morty is very weird in terms of traditional difficulty for a few reasons. He’s not danagerous offensively, a rare trait for a boss, nor is he hard to counter defensively, as Normal types are readily available and useful regardless which incarnation of Johto you are playing, be it GSC or HGSS.

Anyway, onto the actual battle. We have four fast Ghosts who love to spam Hypnosis and Curse. A 60% chance of not getting to move unless you have certain berries: isn’t that fun kids? The only truly threatening mon here in both games here is Gengar as it has Dream Eater in GSC which it swaps out for special Shadow Ball in HGSS. What makes this hard is that strategies to win here are very lopsided: you either have a Psychic who rips right through, or a Normal who walls Shadow Ball but gets haxxed by Hypnosis (in HGSS, most can get Shadow Claw or Crunch or Pursuit or something, I have literally swept with Furrett). Even if Shadow Ball is physical in GSC it doesn’t make sleep any less annoying.

Otherwise? You’re likely slower and are forced even more into Morty’s RNG hax, and I hate it. The only reliable counter in HGSS aside from a Psychic is Insomnia Noctowl, and when was the last time a Johto runner picked that for their Flying type?

Like, I hate Morty more than Whitney and Clair. At least those battles have some element of strategy to them. Honorable mention to Chuck too, but he’s not nearly as bad since his weaknesses are widely exploitable, he only has 2 mons and your mons should be evolved by that point.
 
I feel obligated to update my oppinion on this matter.

Platinum (or DP) first battle against your rival if picking Piplup. I couldn't believe it. 2 times I lost and then I turned off the console. You have no options, no strategy, its just a display of RNG. If Turtwig begins to use Withdraw nonstop, you are done. It's the first battle so it doesnt matter how much you know about Pokémon.
 
It’s been a while. Let’s talk about Terrible Johto Decision #527: Morty!

View attachment 365116

First thing though: WHY does Morty not have Misdreavus? It was literally the only Ghost type introduced in Johto, but no, let’s put it in Mt. Silver originally because THAT makes sense (yeah remakes it is Cliff Cave but like…still a Misdreavus so…). But I digress.

Morty is very weird in terms of traditional difficulty for a few reasons. He’s not danagerous offensively, a rare trait for a boss, nor is he hard to counter defensively, as Normal types are readily available and useful regardless which incarnation of Johto you are playing, be it GSC or HGSS.

Anyway, onto the actual battle. We have four fast Ghosts who love to spam Hypnosis and Curse. A 60% chance of not getting to move unless you have certain berries: isn’t that fun kids? The only truly threatening mon here in both games here is Gengar as it has Dream Eater in GSC which it swaps out for special Shadow Ball in HGSS. What makes this hard is that strategies to win here are very lopsided: you either have a Psychic who rips right through, or a Normal who walls Shadow Ball but gets haxxed by Hypnosis (in HGSS, most can get Shadow Claw or Crunch or Pursuit or something, I have literally swept with Furrett). Even if Shadow Ball is physical in GSC it doesn’t make sleep any less annoying.

Otherwise? You’re likely slower and are forced even more into Morty’s RNG hax, and I hate it. The only reliable counter in HGSS aside from a Psychic is Insomnia Noctowl, and when was the last time a Johto runner picked that for their Flying type?

Like, I hate Morty more than Whitney and Clair. At least those battles have some element of strategy to them. Honorable mention to Chuck too, but he’s not nearly as bad since his weaknesses are widely exploitable, he only has 2 mons and your mons should be evolved by that point.
I do not think it fits more in Hardest Relative NPCs as it is more just badly designed all-around. That resulted Morty failed to stand out from other Ghost-type specialists, particularly… (check list of Ghost specialists) Agatha whose ace is also Gengar, and who at least doesn‘t utilize just the Gastly line as she also utilizes Golbat and Weezing… for some reasons.

Give Whitney her dues, too. While frustrating if you don’t know what worked against her Miltank, she did stands out among both Johto Gym Leaders and Normal-type specialists thanks to her Ace in question. For better and for worse.
 
I'm slowly but surely replaying Platinum rn, and I've to say the entire early game, if you create a full team, is somewhat tough. Most trainers have lvl 7 or 9 Pokémon, and the first battle against Mars is interesting. My team was Shinx lvl 14, Staravia lvl 15, Budew lvl 15 and Piplup lvl 13, and she has a Zubat lvl 15 with Bite and a Purugly lvl 17 with Fake Out. Purugly is fat lol, hopefuly I've 2 intimidate users in the team to shut it down -i also used 2 growls with Staravia lelel-, but for someone who is just playing the games for the first time and trying to level up a full team this Purugly can be deadly x'D
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top