Heracross (Analysis) [QC 0/3]

AccidentalGreed

AccidentalGreed

Sweet and bitter as chocolate.
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AccidentalGreed (Feb 25th, 2011 10:53:16 AM):Hey Windsong, are you still working on Heracross? Sorry for the sudden notice, but er...I really want to work on Heracross and there's no sign of the skeleton being worked on. I figured since it's such a boss Pokemon and all! If not, I'll be happy to help you on the analysis.

Windsong (Feb 26th, 2011 11:27:48 AM):
Ah, sorry, I've had a ton going on lately irl. I'm sorry about preventing you from working on heracross till now; you can take it.

AccidentalGreed (Feb 27th, 2011 11:16:19 PM):
Yay, thanks!

Status: Process, QC checking

QC Approvals (0/3): ...
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it can't learn Drain Punch I can't believe it
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Heracross

[OVERVIEW]

  • Evidenced by the fourth generation, Heracross may seem easily discountable due to rather offputting Speed and common resistances to his STAB
  • However, one would be foolish to call Heracross a horrible Pokemon.
  • With 125 base Attack and super-powerful STAB moves, Heracross is still a very substantial threat
  • Megahorn, Guts, and Heracross' Bug-typing is one of the main reasons to use Heracross, easily switching into one of many such as Fighting-types, status moves, and resistances.
  • Despite shortcomings, Heracross is one of the best physical threats in the game. Remember 3rd generation?
[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Megahorn
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Pursuit / Night Slash / Sleep Talk
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant / Jolly
ability: Guts
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
[SET]
  • With 125 Attack and two very powerful STAB attacks, Heracross is sure to cause a storm with a Choice Band attached.
  • With Guts attached to the deal, Heracross is capable of switching into stray status moves, taking advantage of the boost provided by said ability.
  • Stone Edge nearly completes the coverage by hitting almost every type fightinng + Bug cannot hit for neutral or super effective damage.
  • Stone Edge also hits the flying-types that would normally counter Heracross
  • Even Pokemon resistant to Heracross' STABs will take a huge hit to its HP.
  • The last slot is up to the user. Pursuit can revenge kill many weak threats, such as Latias, Latios, Gengar...
  • Alternatively, Night Slash can be used to hit Jellicent and said Pursuit-weak threats for super-effective damage. It doesn't provide anymore notable coverage outside of them.
  • Sleep Talk is a strange, yet viable option. To take advantage of Guts, Heracross can switch into a sleeping-move, and use Sleep Talk to use the boost.
  • Decent Speed, yet "slow" by standards. Paralysis support is recommened.
  • Entry Hazard Support.
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Megahorn
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Night Slash / Sleep Talk / (Toxic?)
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Jolly / Adamant
ability: Guts
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
  • STABS are powerful as usual.
  • Because Heracross has to deal with just decent Speed, Choice Scarf alleviates the problem.
  • The standard three moves on Choice Band are used here for coverage.
  • Night slash is primary in the fourth slot to revenge kil threats with a Dark-type move specifically, though Megahorn already hits most of the notable threats.
  • Sleep Talk, as usual, makes Heracross a good sleep absorber.
  • Toxic is strange; however, it allows Heracross to surprise many walls by crippling them with Toxic. Beware of move-restriction.
  • Aerial Ace is an odd mention for the ability to revenge kill Virizion, but is highly inferior to anything else
  • This set isn't as powerful as Choice Band, so take care to use more offensive teammates.
  • Since Heracross can revenge kill many foes such as Latios with gusto, teammates who like having their counter killed by Heracross prosper.
  • Entry hazard damage enables KOes Heracross couldn't have gotten otherwise.
[SET]
name: Substitute + Three Attacks
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Megahorn
move 3: Close Combat
move 4: Night Slash / Stone Edge
item: Leftovers / Expert Belt
nature: Jolly
ability: Guts
evs: 16 HP / 240 Atk / 252 Spe
  • Heracross' Choiced sets may rely too much on prediction to take out threats, and may endanger your team if the opponent switches to a counter.
  • With substitute, Heracross is still able to attack zestily with protection, enabling to to kill many threats without too much risk.
  • Heracross is a danger to many teams because it can take out faster Pokemon behind a Substitute and puncture the slower.
  • The dynamic duo of moves is necessary because Heracross needs to put the hurt on as many Pokemon as possibly before its Substitute disappears.
  • Last slot: Jellicent or Flying-types?
  • Like the Choice Scarf set, doesn't hit quite as hard as it could Banded, so entry hazard damage is preffered.
  • Paralysis support is always convenient.
  • The Swarm Ability isn't a totally bad idea on this set, as Heracross can take advantage of the Swarm boost when its health is low.
  • Because Heracross won't always be behind a Substitute, faster Pokemon faster than specific threats are convenient.
  • Pokemon who appreciates having thei would-be counter removed by Heracross are decent teammates.
[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Megahorn
move 3: Close Combat
move 4: Facade / Night Slash
item: Flame Orb / Toxic Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly
ability: Guts
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
  • An underrated threat, capable of wallbreaking and breaking various types of teams.
  • with decent bulk all around, Heracross isa able to get off a Swords Dance easily.
  • Guts also allows Heracross to take advantage of status, rather than be crippled by it. With a Status Orb, Heracross can take Guts into good effect.
  • Dynamic Duo of Megahorn and Close Combat appears again for powerful STAB moves
  • Facade is use primarily to take advantage of the status on Heracross.
  • Commentary on Status Orbs, their advantages, disadvantages
  • For a more bulky set, Leftovers can be the item for Heracross.
  • If Heracross runs a status orb, it won't last long.
  • Jolly nature is necessary to outspeed as many threats as possible.
  • Night Slash can be considered to score an OHKO on Jellicent, who would otherwise wall you.
  • Entry hazard supprt + Teammates.
[SET]
name: Bulk Up
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Megahorn
move 3: Low Kick
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
ability: Guts
evs: 208 HP / 104 Atk / 196 Spe
  • ???
[OTHER OPTIONS]

  • Brick Break
  • Pure attacking set w/ Expert Belt, Status Orb, Life Orb, etc.
  • Shadow Claw, Night Slash is almost always better due to non-immunity to other types
  • Earthquake, redundant
  • Reversal
  • Rest-Talk to abuse Guts
  • An explanation on Swarm and Guts
[CHECKS AND COUNTERS]

  • Heracross' worst enemies include but are not limited to Gliscor, Skarmory, Jellicent (walls certain sets), Tornadus, Tentacruel, Gengar, Shandera, Salamence, and Dragonite
  • Staraptor uses its ability Intimidate to neuter Heracross' attacks and switches comfortably in Megahorn. It also uses Brave Bird to instantly get rid of it.
  • Confagrius turns Heracross' Guts into Mummy upon contact and cripples Heracross with Will-O-Wisp
  • Blaziken with Protect and Speed-Boost is basically a one-way street to hell
  • Absolutely despises those with the rare but present Flying-type attacks in OU, including Brave Bird, Hurricane...
  • Faster opponents with a super effective move work, but have to beware of a high-powered move
  • Prediction, basically.
[DREAM WORLD]
<p>Heracross receives the ability Moxie in the Dream World, which unfortunately is as of yet unreleased. Each Pokemon Heracross defeats (with an attacking move) allows it to boost its Attack by one stage each. While Guts gives Heracross the pleasure of switching into many status moves such as Jellicent's Will-o-Wisp, Moxie is a reliable way of boosting and sweeping without sacrificing Hit Points. Keep in mind that both Guts and Moxie have their standing advantages, and Moxie is in no way superior to Guts. Moxie is arguably best used on the Choice Scarf and Substitute sets, where Heracross can safeguard itself with higher Speed or a Substitute.</p>
 
Now that you mention it, I completely forgot a Dream World section! According to Pokemon Online, Moxie isn't released on Heracross, so that'll be mentioned in the new Dream World section.

Also, if I'm wrong about Moxie not being released, somebody should really make a periodically updated list of Dream World Pokemon / abilities. The list on Smogon isn't very popular or reliable, apparently.

EDIT: Okay, DW section's done. While I'm not done with the whole skeleton, please comment on what I can change. This analysis is starting to look suspiciously similar to the 4th generation one...
 
Too many sets that also make it look like last generation. The Sub set shouldn't be up there. Since the values and moves are the same for the Choice sets, they should just be merged (or the Band should go first) too. I'm also not sure if he would be an effective Bulk Up user.
 
I'll remove the Bulk Up set and move the Choice Band set on top of he analysis once I get my hands on a good keyboard and computer. Perhaps some input on he Substitute set as well? If it's gone, I'll put Substitute in the OO. If anybody wants, you can list reasons for Bulk Up to stay because it still packs a punch like Conkeldurr if used in practice.

On a side note, I'm pleasantly surprised how easily this sets up in front of Conkeldurr, Excadrill, and most defensive Pokemon, except Skarmory and Gliscor, of course. For a comedy mention, I'm mad at how this guy apparently gets Focus Punch but not Drain Punch.
 
I can imagine the Bulk Up set being very good this gen under the right conditions. Packs way more of a punch then that stupid conkelfuck
 
Why would you not run Sub + 3 Attacks? It forces a pretty decent amount of switches with its ability to hit bulky sweepers hard, and helps predicting things like Latios and Jellicent switching in.

Choice Band should have Adamant as the primary slash, IMO, and Heracross can run Bulk Up to decent success with the right support.
 
Alright, I'm changing my mind about Bulk Up, but I'll test is shortly in the day. It seems like a warranted substantial threat. Substitute + Three Attacks eases prediction and whilst testing it was actually successful, so it's also staying in the OP. I made the Adamant nature the primary slash on the Choice Band set due to power differences as well.

Specially Defensive on the Bulk Up set? Sounds good, but it might take us a while to come up with a good one (Conkeldurr can easily invest in a chunky amount, so...)
 
Bumping, and the analysis has been prepared for QC checks! I've made bullet points for nearly every set except for the Bulk Up set, which is up to the QC to decide.

Wow, what a long time.
 
Yeah, I'd axe the Scarf and Substitute sets, the first because even with Scarf, Hera's Speed still sucks, and the second because Substitute doesn't change much as far as keeping it alive (it'll eventually die to poison or burn damage anyway).

The Bulk Up set looks fine, except why would you use Low Kick over Close Combat?
 
I wouldn't discount the Choice Scarf set so easily. With Latias, Latios, Terakion, Ferrothorn, and friends around, Choice Scarf ensures a safe utility on the team while having immense power. Besides, unlike other user of Choice Band, Heracross actually makes great use of Scarf, courtesy of just decent speed. Heracross' Speed doesn't necessarily "suck" because he basically outruns a "speed tier" that all +1 boosters need: the 130 range.

I have no comments on the Substitute set since it benefited me multiple times, and instead of a Status Orb, Leftovers and Expert Belt gave some insurance. The fate of the Substitute set rests in the QC's hand, though.

Lastly, Low Kick is used so Heracross' defense boost isn't so easily wasted, apparently. I might give it a mention in the additional comments, but only because this is a defensive set.
 
There isn't much reason to remove the Scarf set. The only set I'm wondering about right now is the Bulk Up one. He can use the move of course, but is it really worth using it above Swords Dance?
 
Aerodactyl Legend said:
Too many sets that also make it look like last generation. The Sub set shouldn't be up there. Since the values and moves are the same for the Choice sets, they should just be merged (or the Band should go first) too. I'm also not sure if he would be an effective Bulk Up user.
Click to expand...
I've used the Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Sub sets (Stone Edge over Night Slash for the latter), and I actually found all of them really solid. You shouldn't merge the Choice sets though - one is a fantastic revenge killer, whereas the other is a bulky attacker looking to find opportunities to fire off its strong hits. In other words, they play too different to be merged. The Sub set needs a lot of support though (removing Gliscor and Jellicent, etcetera), but it's definitely viable and can cause havoc mid-late game, especially with its decent bulk too. Having Substitute really protects Heracross and also aids prediction, and it can force a lot of switches to get the chance to Sub, as several slower Pokemon like Reuniclus and Ferrothorn are highly popular. Swarm isn't a totally ridiculous idea on Sub Heracross, as it can help it secure extra KOes with the boost. Substitute Heracross shouldn't really be looking to take status due to the HP loss of burn/poison paired with Sub being awful (the paralysis is obviously lame), whereas the other sets often can get away with it a bit better.

Aerial Ace should have a small mention in Other Options for the Choice Scarf set, allowing Heracross to act as a fantastic backup revenge killer to Virizion (Jolly Close Combat fails to OHKO, even after SR). I simply found it useful in situations where Heracross was low HP and Virizion was causing trouble. However, it's generally inferior to the other moves due to low Base Power and poor super effective coverage, allowing opponents to switch with less fear.
 
I don't really see the point of Sub + 3 attacks. Heracross can force switches to get that Sub up, but he's easily walled, especially with no power-boosting item. Not to mention stuff like Gyarados Intimidates you on the switch before the Sub is put up, so -1 attack behind a Sub, yeah you're not doing much.

Machamp is infinitely more annoying behind a Sub due to the confuse hax it can cause.
 
shipship said:
I don't really see the point of Sub + 3 attacks. Heracross can force switches to get that Sub up, but he's easily walled, especially with no power-boosting item. Not to mention stuff like Gyarados Intimidates you on the switch before the Sub is put up, so -1 attack behind a Sub, yeah you're not doing much.

Machamp is infinitely more annoying behind a Sub due to the confuse hax it can cause.
Click to expand...
Machamp also doesn't have the Speed that Heracross has, nor the STAB Megahorn.

The metagame is filled with stuff that Heracross hits super effectively, or can severely damage with the right move; Terrakion, Ferrothorn, Reuniclus, Tyranitar, Ninetales, Thundurus, and so on. But Heracross cannot swap moves with the CB/CS sets, which means he isn't really going to be sweeping, he's just a bulky attacker/revenge killer. With the right support, this set is great, and allows you to plan ahead and allows Heracross the freedom of choosing the next move.
 
Isn't sleep talk a lot more viable in 5th gen due to the new way sleep mechanic works and the fact that now you can stay in for more than one turn even while choiced? Sure it's a bit risky what with that 33% chance you'll get the move you want but it does give you status immunity and a 50% increase to your attack making it a prime candidate to absorb that sleep from breloom and then come in later with its guts boost. I'd honestly consider it the primary choice on the scarf user over Night Slash since Night Slash doesn't really give him KOs that Megahorn/Stone Edge already don't give him. (Maybe a 2HKO on Jellicent?)
 
Majora_younglink said:
Isn't sleep talk a lot more viable in 5th gen due to the new way sleep mechanic works and the fact that now you can stay in for more than one turn even while choiced? Sure it's a bit risky what with that 33% chance you'll get the move you want but it does give you status immunity and a 50% increase to your attack making it a prime candidate to absorb that sleep from breloom and then come in later with its guts boost. I'd honestly consider it the primary choice on the scarf user over Night Slash since Night Slash doesn't really give him KOs that Megahorn/Stone Edge already don't give him. (Maybe a 2HKO on Jellicent?)
Click to expand...

I made Night Slash the primary option over Sleep Talk because it can, in fact, 2HKO Physically Defensive Jellicent. If the majority decides, though, I could make the primary option Sleep Talk just because it's such a good Sleep absorber, but then that means Heracross can't really give Latios a run for its money.
 
Huh, didn't know Hera could 2HKO that big jelly. Well both are good options it can't be disputed then. Really both have their merits and downfalls. I'd be good with either one as the primary choice then with that new knowledge on a 2HKO.

Overall I like the write up but isn't choice scarf much more commonly used than choice band? I'm not sure if the metagame has changed that much but I'd assume choice scarf would still be the primary option since base 85 speed isn't exactly the tier to be running bands.
 
Staraptor uses its ability Intimidate to neuter Heracross' attacks and switches comfortably in Megahorn. It also uses Brave Bird to instantly get rid of it.
Click to expand...

It can't easily switch into Close Combat or Stone Edge. Even with Leftovers, at -1 Close Combat does 54% min, and with a Choice Band Heracross has a fair chance of OHKOing with both attacks if Stealth Rock is down.

And the other part I caught in the C & C is that Blaziken is banned now.
 
Are you planning on merging the Choice sets? They're essentially the same. Maybe just put in the description that an Adamant nature and Pursuit is preferable when running Band, and Jolly and Night Slash/Sleep Talk is preferable on the Scarf set.
 
masterful said:
Are you planning on merging the Choice sets? They're essentially the same. Maybe just put in the description that an Adamant nature and Pursuit is preferable when running Band, and Jolly and Night Slash/Sleep Talk is preferable on the Scarf set.
Click to expand...

twash said:
You shouldn't merge the Choice sets though - one is a fantastic revenge killer, whereas the other is a bulky attacker looking to find opportunities to fire off its strong hits. In other words, they play too different to be merged.
Click to expand...
 
The fact is, though, that a lot of other analyses have choice sets merged into one, even if they play very differently. Is there a standard for this, or does it depend on the Pokemon in question?
 
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