Hitmontop (BW2 REVAMP) {QC 2/3}

PttP

is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
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NO MORE TECHNITOP

[OVERVIEW]

<p>At a first glance, it may seem that Hitmontop is a rather lacking Pokemon. Unfortunately for it, that is mostly the case. On the offensive side, it stands no match to the power of other physical Fighting-types such as Terrakion and Lucario. On the defensive side, it struggles to maintain a long lifespan because of its lack of reliable recovery. However, the one beacon of hope for Hitmontop comes in the form of Rapid Spin. In a metagame which seems to emphasize the advantages of spike-stacking, Hitmontop is the perfect kryptonite. Unlike other spinners, who often cannot get past spinblocking ghosts such as Jellicent, with the combination of Foresight + Rapid Spin, Hitmontop will get the job done. Unfortunately for it, spinning is basically all it does. With its low Attack and shallow movepool, Hitmontop is often at the mercy of strong setup attackers such as Dragon Dance Dragonite and Nasty Plot Celebi. Hitmontop has a very certain niche, but in a metagame full of spikestacking, that niche may be all it needs to be effective.</p>

[SET]
name: Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Foresight
move 4: Toxic / Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
ability: Intimidate
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

-it spins man thats what it does
-foresight separates it from the other spinners since rarely do teams use double ghosts (this isnt dpp uu!) and so youre pretty much guaranteed a spin
-close combat cause youre a fighting type so you need a fighting stab
-toxic / stone edge is filler really - toxic means youre not set up by everything on the planet that resists fighting and stone edge so that gengar doesnt completely massacre you (it still does though)
-intimidate cause youre a boss and you scare terrakions all day
-max def cause your defense isnt as high as your spdef and most stuff you wanna come in on are physical

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

-hitmontop should be used on a bulkier team that is vulnerable to hazards
-pokemon that are good with hitmontop: dragonite, gyarados, terrakion, chomper, hippodown etc etc
-low kick > close combat
-rest > toxic/stone edge since you dont got recovery
-if you do use rest, use a cleric!
-you should probably have like a latias or something on your team since hitmontop is gonna draw a lot of powerful special attacks from rain/sun abusers
-wish users are nice teammates!

[OTHER OPTIONS]

-technitop
-revenge
-low sweep
-aerial ace breloom
-rain dance/sunny day
-sucker punch gengar
-pursuit gengar
-protect
-counter
-earthquake toxicroaker

[CHECKS AND COUNTERS]

-gengar
-anything with a strong special attack really
-any physical attacker that doesnt take damage from close combat
-really anything that hits hitmontop for damage and is somewhat bulky cause hitmontop has no healing and is pitifully weak
-you cant really stop hitmontop from doing its job so you cant counter it as you would a normal pokemon
-gliscor laughs at topper
-reuniclus doesnt take any sh*t from hitmontop
-tornadus pow pow pow
-if you get burn / poison on hitmontop its over
 
always found max hp/max atk to be better than max hp/max def on the listed set becausethe additional atk evs provide far more utility than the defensive investment - CB Terrakion is 2HKOing with CC regardless and the defensive spread coming in on SE is only 'countering' him in a loose sense of the word since it hasn't really granted you any momentum whatsoever unless you have something worth spinning away. max atk still counters things like Tyranitar just as effectively but actually does something once it's in. it can provide a bit of muscle because Close Combat/Stone Edge off of 317 Atk stings like a bitch doing neat stuff to semi-bulky Pokemon such as Keldeo (68% max as opposed to 49%) and Thundurus-T (102% max as opposed to 73%).

you often go on about how pitifully weak he is but that is not an inherent trait of hitmontop, it's just a component of that EV spread. max hp/max atk is a far better addition to any balanced team in my experience. max def just forces things out a few times, gets worn down in the process and utterly kills your momentum.

with that in mind, hjk is probably a better AC option than low kick because it gives you a odds-on chance to ohko breloom after SR but doesnt offer too much else.
 
Technitop is really really good in OU (he is perfect on the D-D + sweeper teams). I seriously think it should get a set. Fake Out / Mach Punch / Close Combat / Stone Edge is just really good. The list of pokemon it revenges in OU is astounding. I don't feel like digging the list out now.
 
It revenges every sweeper in the Metagame except Dragonite really... -___-

I'll reserve this post for some logs. The problem isn't technitop itself, it is fitting him on a team. Weatherless sucks these days.
 
The issue isn't what Technitop can do, it's what can it do that Breloom can't? Especially with your set; Breloom hits harder than Technitop and has Spore and can viably run Low Sweep and has potential to sweep some teams...
If you're going to push for Technitop you REALLY need to emphasize what it can do that makes it useful when Breloom is in this metagame.
 
Umm... Here's my question. Even if TechniTop were good, umm... I'm really hard pressed to actually find a situation where I'd actually want TechniTop instead of Techniloom. To me, it's just a significantly weaker but bulkier Techniloom. I dunno about you, but 95 base Attack vs. 130 base Attack is a huge difference. Then just tack on Spore, Bullet Seed, and Low Sweep or Swords Dance!

In fact, that reminds me - Technician doesn't boost anything on Hitmontop except for Fake Out (lol bad), Mach Punch (outdone by Breloom), and Bullet Punch (Scizor anyone?). On Breloom, it boosts Mach Punch, Bullet Seed, and Low Sweep! Holy shit, that's 75% of a whole set and all of those moves are actually, like, I dunno, good on Breloom! And if you want a bulkier Technician user, don't we have this Pokemon called Scizor? Umm..... Ok, yeah, find me a good reason to use Technitop... Oh wait, there isn't one.
 
They play completely different. You don't play Technitop as a sweeper because it is not. It is a dedicated revenge killer and it is damn good at it. They play so completely differently it is not even funny like what the hell?!

Fake Out is what makes it work. Fake Out + Mach Punch is what lets it revenge kill shit, so don't compare that to Breloom in power. Fake Out + Mach Punch OHKOs Alakazam and doesn't care about Sash, for example. Fake Out + Mach Punch is the whole point of the set anyway.. that is why it is called Technitop..

Close Combat with a Life Orb is Close Combat. Breloom has trouble causing enough damage to things like Jirachi and other bulkier shit that resists Seed Bomb. Life Orb Close Combat is Life Orb Close Combat. If you need to just plow shit, you can do it.

Pursuit perfectly viable on it as well for certain teams. Once people figure out your shit and want to save something you can pick off a kill.

Bulk - Hitmontop is surprisingly difficult to OHKO without a Choice Item unlike Breloom. In a lot of worse case scenarios, you can beat things one on one with a simple Fake Out + Close Combat or Close Combat + Mach Punch. For example, non Choice Band Garchomp loses to Technitop one on one because of pure Bulk. Outrage maxes at 79% and you beat it with Close Combat + Mach Punch. Choice Band Scizor suffers a similar fate. Just examples...

Scizor's as a Technician user doesn't quite do the same thing as Technitop either.. Bullet Punch has worse typing coverage, and again.. it lacks Close Combat. I'm not saying Hitmontop isn't more useful because it certainly is not but it is different. Why don't people acknowledge different pokemon rather than trying to compare everything?

LucaroarkZ said:
In fact, that reminds me - Technician doesn't boost anything on Hitmontop except for Fake Out (lol bad), Mach Punch (outdone by Breloom), and Bullet Punch (Scizor anyone?). On Breloom, it boosts Mach Punch, Bullet Seed, and Low Sweep! Holy shit, that's 75% of a whole set and all of those moves are actually, like, I dunno, good on Breloom! And if you want a bulkier Technician user, don't we have this Pokemon called Scizor? Umm..... Ok, yeah, find me a good reason to use Technitop... Oh wait, there isn't one.
Click to expand...

What is with the smug attitude? Technician can boost Pursuit as well, but you don't need to use Technician on your entire set when you have 120 Base Power Close Combat and 100 Base Power Stone Edge... At what point does Technician matter? How is that relevant to the set in any way?
 
RaikouLover said:
They play completely different. You don't play Technitop as a sweeper because it is not. It is a dedicated revenge killer and it is damn good at it. They play so completely differently it is not even funny like what the hell?!

Fake Out is what makes it work. Fake Out + Mach Punch is what lets it revenge kill shit, so don't compare that to Breloom in power. Fake Out + Mach Punch OHKOs Alakazam and doesn't care about Sash, for example. Fake Out + Mach Punch is the whole point of the set anyway.. that is why it is called Technitop..

Close Combat with a Life Orb is Close Combat. Breloom has trouble causing enough damage to things like Jirachi and other bulkier shit that resists Seed Bomb. Life Orb Close Combat is Life Orb Close Combat. If you need to just plow shit, you can do it.

Pursuit perfectly viable on it as well for certain teams. Once people figure out your shit and want to save something you can pick off a kill.

Bulk - Hitmontop is surprisingly difficult to OHKO without a Choice Item unlike Breloom. In a lot of worse case scenarios, you can beat things one on one with a simple Fake Out + Close Combat or Close Combat + Mach Punch. For example, non Choice Band Garchomp loses to Technitop one on one because of pure Bulk. Outrage maxes at 79% and you beat it with Close Combat + Mach Punch. Choice Band Scizor suffers a similar fate. Just examples...

Scizor's as a Technician user doesn't quite do the same thing as Technitop either.. Bullet Punch has worse typing coverage, and again.. it lacks Close Combat. I'm not saying Hitmontop isn't more useful because it certainly is not but it is different. Why don't people acknowledge different pokemon rather than trying to compare everything?
Click to expand...

On Close Combat, well, wouldn't you rather be using Lucario or Terrakion if you wanted something to use Close Combat? At least, I would.

Pursuit... Umm... Scizor, Tyranitar, Weavile? If you want Pursuit, use any one of these Pokemon because they do it better than Hitmontop.

Also, Breloom has Low Sweep to similarly deal high damage when it doesn't need to use priority. The power increase from Close Combat is for the most part offset by Hitmontop's low base Attack anyway.

As for bulk.... Scizor has a Steel typing, so in the long run, its bulk will end up being more relevant since it has a good number of resistances unlike Hitmontop. That, and actually good base Attack. The last time I used Technitop was in the Excadrill meta, where Technician Mach Punch was actually useful to revenge Excadrill and Technician Breloom didn't exist. But without either of those factors around... It's hard justifying any usage of Technitop when you have two better options for Technician abusers.
 
TechniTop really ain't a good set tbh.

I'd rather be using Breloom if I want Technician Mach Punch. It hits way harder, has SD to boost its power, and has Spore to incapacitate an opponent. Spore makes it so that its lack of bulk hardly even matters, so eh.

Fake Out is a pretty bad move. It provides no notable coverage. Plus, Mienshao and even Weavile are better users of the move. Not to mention Fake Out allows some nasty switch-ins to dangerous shit like Gengar and Terrakion. Heck, I'd go as far as saying Ambipom is a better choice for that. I'm dead serious.

Bulk...Alright, I'd rather be using Scizor. It has good bulk, numerous resistances, priority Bullet Punch already, and U-turn. Mmmhmmm. Much better than Shitmontop.

Alright, it has Sucker Punch? Hey, there's the super rare Bisharp to do that! It has a Steel typing, higher Attack, and SD to boot!

Pursuit, as previously stated, is left off to something better.

So yeah, TechniTop isn't a good set. It may have been useful in the Excadrill meta, alright, but now there's no Excadrill, and if you are desperate to kill Stoutland, just use Breloom (iirc, Loom's LO Mach Punch OHKO's Dog?)

Besides that, I don't have much to say on this analysis. Good mention that it's the one OU viable spinner who's there for teams that absolutely need hazards off the field thanks to Foresight, meaning it can spin on Gengar and Jelli!

So yah, nothing really to say on this.
 
itt hitmontop gets outclassed by a fusion of breloom, scizor, weavile, mienshao, bisharp, terrakion and lucario.

fake out+mach punch+sucker punch allows you to revenge a bunch of stuff that breloom could only dream of and the bulk allows you to switch into stuff like scarf terrakion or latios in a pinch. you're also seriously underestimating how much a LO Close Combat hurts. technitop is a great utility pokemon to have on your team as he gives you a safety blanket that not many non-choice'd pokemon can hope to offer.

when did we become so hyper-critical with regards to what gets a set and what doesn't that people are sitting here and saying, without a hint of irony, that 'breloom is a better user of mach punch and terrakion is a better user of CC and Ambipom is a better user of Fake Out and Bisharp is a better user of Sucker Punch thetefore technitop shouldn't get a set.' do me a favour...
 
I can't thank you enough Lee for highlighting that moronic line of reasoning. It's not usually quite this bad, but far too common nonetheless. Practically every good pokemon is outclassed by a bunch of crappy ones if you look at it that way (terrakion's close combat is weaker than medicham's HJK, its stone edge is weaker than aggron's head smash, and it's slower than aerodactyl...).

Anyway, the fact that people arguing against it are making terrible arguments doesn't make Technitop good. I know that it's different. To get an analysis, a pokemon has to be both different and good. So basically, I don't really want to see mentions of those other pokemon it's supposedly outclassed by. Lets look at Hitmontop on its own and see if it's deserving of an analysis.
 
(This is an Android post so don't expect the best out of it.)

Hitmontop still has its niche as a spinner. Okay, it's not the best spinner ever, alright, but with Foresight and Intimidate it can get the job done. It can check Terrakion and shit, so I think this thing is still viable. Other than that, that set is pretty fine.

And sorry for that shitty reasoning. But I still don't see any reason to use Technitop anymore. No need to explain why (Hi, Dragonite).
 
Lee said:
itt hitmontop gets outclassed by a fusion of breloom, scizor, weavile, mienshao, bisharp, terrakion and lucario.

fake out+mach punch+sucker punch allows you to revenge a bunch of stuff that breloom could only dream of and the bulk allows you to switch into stuff like scarf terrakion or latios in a pinch. you're also seriously underestimating how much a LO Close Combat hurts. technitop is a great utility pokemon to have on your team as he gives you a safety blanket that not many non-choice'd pokemon can hope to offer.

when did we become so hyper-critical with regards to what gets a set and what doesn't that people are sitting here and saying, without a hint of irony, that 'breloom is a better user of mach punch and terrakion is a better user of CC and Ambipom is a better user of Fake Out and Bisharp is a better user of Sucker Punch thetefore technitop shouldn't get a set.' do me a favour...
Click to expand...

It's not about being outclassed, Technitop is just a bad Pokemon in OU. 3 of its moves are dedicated priority moves, one of which doesn't even work past the first turn. It's only claim to fame is revenge killing, but it doesn't do do anything else. I just don't think being a good revenge killer alone is enough to justify having a set, especially when you consider it loses to a lot of good of Pokemon. It doesn't revenge kill every sweeper in the metagame; it really only gets Terrakion, Hydreigon, Lucario, Starmie*, Latios*, Alakazam, Kyurem and Mamoswine. (you need to gamble if you want to revenge kill Starmie or Latios and you only get one chance, if your opponent sees through Sucker Punch, you're dead in the water)*

I can admit that a well played TechniTop is probably on par / better at straight up revenge killing than Breloom/Scizor, but it has nothing else to offer. Breloom can Spore / Sweep & Scizor is... well Scizor. What else can it do outside of revenge killing besides being able to tank a Close Combat from Scarf Terrakion?
 
PK Gaming said:
It's not about being outclassed, Technitop is just a bad Pokemon in OU. 3 of its moves are dedicated priority moves, one of which doesn't even work past the first turn. It's only claim to fame is revenge killing, but it doesn't do do anything else. I just don't think being a good revenge killer alone is enough to justify having a set, especially when you consider it loses to a lot of good of Pokemon. It doesn't revenge kill every sweeper in the metagame; it really only gets Terrakion, Hydreigon, Lucario, Starmie*, Latios*, Alakazam, Kyurem and Mamoswine. (you need to gamble if you want to revenge kill Starmie or Latios and you only get one chance, if your opponent sees through Sucker Punch, you're dead in the water)*

I can admit that a well played TechniTop is probably on par / better at straight up revenge killing than Breloom/Scizor, but it has nothing else to offer. Breloom can Spore / Sweep & Scizor is... well Scizor. What else can it do outside of revenge killing besides being able to tank a Close Combat from Scarf Terrakion?
Click to expand...

The part I bolded is actually inaccruate. You don't need to be super effective to revenge kill things. That is the whole point of Fake Out. Fake Out + Mach Punch muscles through many sweepers. Here are some combo calculations on the pokemon you didn't mention:

Fake Out + Mach Punch
Jolteon - 105% minimum damage
Infernape - 85-100%
Alakazam - 97-100%
Haxorus - 67-80%
Breloom - 85-100%
Garchomp - 52-64%
Venusaur - 50-61%
Keldeo - 62-75%

Now, you cannot tell me the extra damage from Fake Out isn't huge when you are facing a sweep. The perk of using Technitop as a revenge killer is that is the majority of sweepers in OU making the cut (save the obvious Volcarona, Dragonite, Thundurus-T) and he doesn't need a choice item to do it.

For what it's worth, Sucker Punch is kind of meh. It is too predictable and you are better off using Pursuit for those targets (especially if Fake Out takes them low on health). Pursuit and Stone Edge where the only things I've bothered using in the 4th slot. Stone Edge at least keeps Dragonite and Volcarona from getting too greedy.
 
i havent used technitop but ive used the defensive set quite a lot and i thought id mention that wish salamence is a really nice partner to it; they have some nice synergy, double intimidate, force switches to rack up hazard damage, and mence can sort of make up for tops lack of recovery :)
 
If myself, the majority of the qc team, and even the analysis writer doesn't think Technitop is viable, then i'm afraid there isn't much you can do or say to change our minds RL, calcs including.

It might seem like we're taking shortcuts with Hitmontop, but we genuinely believe that Technitop is unfit for OU. If you can get a small majority of people to back you up, or even some conclusive logs that shows Technitop is worth using in OU, we'll reconsider, but as it stands, there will be no further discussion.
 
RaikouLover said:
The part I bolded is actually inaccruate. You don't need to be super effective to revenge kill things. That is the whole point of Fake Out. Fake Out + Mach Punch muscles through many sweepers. Here are some combo calculations on the pokemon you didn't mention:

Fake Out + Mach Punch
Jolteon - 105% minimum damage
Infernape - 85-100%
Alakazam - 97-100%
Haxorus - 67-80%
Breloom - 85-100%
Garchomp - 52-64%
Venusaur - 50-61%
Keldeo - 62-75%

Now, you cannot tell me the extra damage from Fake Out isn't huge when you are facing a sweep. The perk of using Technitop as a revenge killer is that is the majority of sweepers in OU making the cut (save the obvious Volcarona, Dragonite, Thundurus-T) and he doesn't need a choice item to do it.

For what it's worth, Sucker Punch is kind of meh. It is too predictable and you are better off using Pursuit for those targets (especially if Fake Out takes them low on health). Pursuit and Stone Edge where the only things I've bothered using in the 4th slot. Stone Edge at least keeps Dragonite and Volcarona from getting too greedy.
Click to expand...

Those calcs aren't too convincing considering that Jolteon is the only one you can reliably "revenge kill" and no one uses it.

I am not approving Technitop.
 
Celebi and Blissey/Chansey have ok synergy with Hitmontop and they provide Heal Bell and/or Wish so mention them in AC.

Also maybe move Revenge in AC? It is essentially a Close Combat against anything that attacks Hitmontop, as it has negative priority, and Hitmontop isn't winning any Speed award anyway so playing last is not such a misfortune. Opinions?

Other than this

TVZ7K0M.gif


QC Apprvoed 1/3
 
I think additional teammates also packing Intimidate is worth mentioning. With the introduction of Landorus-T, bulky Intimidate rinsing is a much more effective strategy than it was before. Since Hitmontop can use Rapid Spin, you are free to run Salamence or Gyarados alongside of Hitmontop. This post gives an example core of such a strategy. Two Intimidators on a team together can buy breathing space for many of your other Pokemon to switch in. You can also spam Intimidate back and forth since Hitmontop should remove SR.

Yikes a mono-attacking immune to Ghost Hitmontop. Foresight is good, but it should still be slashed with Toxic. If you misplay on the Foresight, Jellicent can still Taunt to make sure you do not Rapid Spin again (and most of them carry speed past skarm now to Taunt you >.< at min speed). Even with Foresight and Toxic Gengar can still freely come in and do some damage. It can set up a Substitute and disable your attacking move, which would be Foresight Shadow Ball. Stone Edge with Toxic is still a combination that is nice since it cripples Jellicent while you can hurt Gengar.
 
eh, double intimidate is cool but not entirely necessary

it's like having a sand abuser in sand, it's nice but you don't really need it! it's not that important to mention

but yah this is good; technitop sucks

[qc]2/3[/qc]

you can write it up now :]
 
pttp isn't working on this any longer - does anybody want to pick this up from where ballabrown left off?
 
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