Hosting regular tournaments live instead

Not sure if i had to post it here or pm Earthworm as this suggestion is rather controversial but here it goes.

My suggestion is to host regular tournaments live, similar to the smogon tour , over the current long-stretched format we have now. I've been thinking about it and i feel that the pro's of applying the smogon tour format to regular tournaments outweights the possible disadvantages.

Why is it better?

- A live tournament lasts a few hours, current tournaments however last 2 months on average: Currently tournaments require at least 2 months of consistent activity from their participants, in other words no busy periods or travels that last longer then a week. For many (including myself) this makes it impossible to join any of the regular tournaments.

- More activity: Trying to maintain your tournament's activity is a time-consuming and extremely frustrating task for any tournament host. Unless you're hosting a tournament with top players, one can assume that at least 20% of players who entered will be inactive at some point. This is rarely the case in live tournaments where it's usually limited to 3 or 4 players.

- Not having to 'find' your opponent: Finding your opponent and discussing a date and hour in which both can play is often a (rather frustrating) challenge by itself. It's unbelievable how much time it can take just to achieve this (sending PM's, checking smogon every day, calculating timezones, searching when both have free time, waiting for your opponent to show up, unexpected events that delay the match, etc...). This is also the reason why one can't effort to join these tournaments during busy periods. For example: I can join smogon tour during the examinations period as i've planned those 3 hour in my study plan beforehand and can focus myself entirely on the exams the rest of the time. I can't schedule however when and how much time i'll have to spend finding and battling my opponent in a regular tournament, as such i have to split my focus during the examinations something I and i assume many others people here can't effort.

- A Tournament atmosphere: Perhaps this is just a personal opinion, but i feel that live tournaments have much more excitement and interest involved then regular ones. People seem to be more interested in the live tournament as a whole and how it finaly ends as evidenced by these youtube video's:
Tournament battles:Secret Santa Year 4 Finals, Fan Favorites Finals, Fuk Dragon Semi Finals
When compared to the ammount of people watching it live on shoddy(youtube views don't count as they are influenced by upload dates, title and tag similarities, music, uploader video priority, etc..) to these
Smogon tour finals: an UU final, OU final, and ubers
Live tournaments also have more discussion involved as pretty much all experts and enthusiasts regarding the played metagame are all in one place. I think this could be even more important for most regular tournaments as they usually have some interesting twist to it. How can these interesting changes in the metagame be researched and analyzed any better then in a live tournament where all participants are already there?

To sum it up, live tournaments are in general more efficient, more active, have a more exciting atmosphere and are easier for both participant and host alike.

Possible disadvantages of this format

- Live tournaments cannot be run simultaneously When hosting a tournament live one has to take a time in the week in which almost everyone can play(Saterday and Sunday 4 PM US East time). Because of this no more then two tournaments can be hosted a week and not a single one during smogon tour.
Personally i don't see this becomming a problem as there is plenty of time between two smogon tours to host all of them and many people don't have the time to actively participate in two tournaments anyway.

- Some people may not be able to enter: People from certain timezones (like India)will have a lot of trouble entering these tournaments. Though current tournaments have similar troubles thanks to the First Come First Serve method as discribed here.

- Less signups: As the time for signups in live tournaments is extremely short it is possible less people might enter. This could have been a serious problem in the past but i don't see this becomming a problem with smogon's current activity.

- Not all tournaments can be hosted live:
These include
*Huge tournaments with more then 200 participants
*Tournaments that change rules between rounds
*Wifi tournaments

How it could be organized
(If you know any more practical way please tell me)

- Host sends his idea to a tournament director for approval
- The director approves and informs the host with the date of the live tournament
- The host opens an information topic, which includes the rules and the date of the tournament. People can ask questions to the host regarding the rules and discuss the possibilities of said tournament
- The host opens a sign up topic at the pre-arranged date and the live tournament can begin.

Also the director will have to update the tournament listing with all upcomming tournaments and their data




That's the end of it. If there is anything that didn't make sense in this post please tell me, as it's rather difficult to make it so in a foreign language.

Thanks for reading
 

matty

I did stuff a long time ago for the site
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Getting 64 people on for what are usually gimmick tournaments with no incentive (IE No trophy, no recognition of winning a Tour etc. etc.) doesn't seem very practical to me. Plus getting 64 people on is hard in itself. The reason that Tours work is because the entire thing is set up weeks-months in advance. Since there is always more people than can accommodate spots, you never have a problem filling it. With these tournaments, if people don't show up, which I think would happen very often, finding subs would be difficult and giving byes is a stupid way to run tournaments (even though tons are given out in 2 month tournaments as well)

I think that the disadvantages you listed outweigh the advantages, but that's my 2 cents
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Worth noting that PO comfortably ran off the cuff 64 man tournaments consistently (with the odd 128 man OU/randoms at peak times) using a tournament script to handle pairings and check that everyone had legal teams with a significantly smaller server than SU, and without a large IRC network to spread the news to even more players. Now that tournaments have moved to a separate channel, it tends to be 32 man for most tiers or 16 for small metagames (Doubles, LC). I think that announcing the tourney in advance and having signups on the day is likely to work better since it avoids the people who don't turn up problem.
 
Getting 64 people on for what are usually gimmick tournaments with no incentive (IE No trophy, no recognition of winning a Tour etc. etc.) doesn't seem very practical to me. Plus getting 64 people on is hard in itself. The reason that Tours work is because the entire thing is set up weeks-months in advance. Since there is always more people than can accommodate spots, you never have a problem filling it. With these tournaments, if people don't show up, which I think would happen very often, finding subs would be difficult and giving byes is a stupid way to run tournaments (even though tons are given out in 2 month tournaments as well)

I think that the disadvantages you listed outweigh the advantages, but that's my 2 cents
Despite most regular tournaments being 'gimmick' they still manage to get at least 128 players usually. If the date of sign ups is pre-determined and announced to the public weeks beforehand, i don't see how these people can't sign up at that moment.

Yes there will be a few who can't be there at that time. But are you seriously suggesting more then HALF of those who are interested will not show up because it's live? I think you are exagurating here or are seriously underestimating smogon current activity (smogon gets twice as many pageviews now then it did in 2008 according to alexa).

In other words in 2008 i would have agreed with you but now smogon is certainly active enough for this format
 
This sounds like a cool idea, and I actually have np with it. But, the only problem I see is that you will probably be limited to run the tournaments on weekends. People are usually busy on weekdays (i.e. school, job, routines, etc.), and thus won't be able to participate. You might fill the signups for this day, but will probably be limited to the same players. Having the tournament on weekends, on the other hand, conflicts with the Smogon Tour. In my opinion, this could be efficient if hosted in the lapses between each Smogon Tour.

Just my thought.

EDIT: My b didn't read the disadvantages from the OP, so just restating the mentioned. This is a problem though :p
 

matty

I did stuff a long time ago for the site
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Maybe your right. I'm out of the loop I suppose, but when I was TD it was hard enough prodding people to get actually get on, make a team for the actually tournament (which is usually the biggest hurdle) and then find that other player. The problem I still see with the process is that people drag their feet because you usually have to make entirely new teams. Along with this, if the theme changes every round like most gimmick tournaments do, then that is a lot of pre-planning that goes into playing a couple of games for one day.

I also didn't say that I thought half the people won't show up, but say hypothetically that 4-10 don't, are you going to have 4-10 people on hand to fill those spots? And, what happens in the case that everyone shows up and subs sit around idly to do nothing.

Oh one more thing I should add. I'm not completely opposed to the system. If you look at how the Draft Tournament series were run, those were great indications that this is possible, but what was very accessibly about those were the fact that you made the team on the spot and then immediately battled. Even then those tournaments took hours (I made it past R1/R2 a few times and I sat around for 2 hours or more)
 
Along with this, if the theme changes every round like most gimmick tournaments do, then that is a lot of pre-planning that goes into playing a couple of games for one day.
I agree that tournaments who change rules between rounds shouldn't be played live, something i already adressed in the OP.

About half of all tournaments don't change rules during the tournament however and these are the kind i think a live format would much more beneficial


I also didn't say that I thought half the people won't show up, but say hypothetically that 4-10 don't, are you going to have 4-10 people on hand to fill those spots? And, what happens in the case that everyone shows up and subs sit around idly to do nothing.
I think there is a misunderstanding here, sign ups will not be beforehand. It would be run in a similar way like smogon tour. The battles will start right after the sign ups and the date will be announced to the public weeks before it starts.

Oh one more thing I should add. I'm not completely opposed to the system. If you look at how the Draft Tournament series were run, those were great indications that this is possible, but what was very accessibly about those were the fact that you made the team on the spot and then immediately battled. Even then those tournaments took hours (I made it past R1/R2 a few times and I sat around for 2 hours or more)
Well as the date will be announced at least a week before it starts, anyone who is interested would have plenty of time to create their team. As such they would go much faster then the draft series.

Thanks for the mild support for my idea though, not that i mind any well thought criticism.
The worst are those who nitpick disadvantages without any argument whatsoever like the guy below, really frustrating

Let me ask you a question Aqueos, how many smogoners are unable to join at 4AM Saterday US East because of timezone issues? Well it's roughly about 4%
How many people are able to remain active for 2 entire months, never having a week of vacation, work or examinations? I don't know but it has to be around 20% as evidenced by this gamefaqs poll who has a similar audience as smogon and all these people including me are left out of the regular tournaments this summer because of the current tournament format. During the schoolyear the same problem goes for all those who have examinations and actually take them seriously.

You can't possibly make anyone happy, but i believe that my suggestion benefits more people then the current format does. Unless you have some brilliant suggestion of course, in which case i would love to hear it.
 

Earthworm

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 6 Championis a Past SPL Championis a Three-Time Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
Moderator
There are no rules against submitting applications for Live tournaments, regular or one-off. These have been attempted / done before in the LNT (which was a popular success and has had several seasons), the Draft Tournament Series (which only had 16-24 people play each week, possibly due to the IRC component), a one-off Draft Tournament (which involved signups a while prior to the actual tournament PLUS an IRC component which were the reasons for its complete failure), and The Codex Tournament Series (which was supposed to be regular but the host turned out to be far too busy to run it successfully, and it had a mediocre turnout of 26 people for the first one). There are also #stark cups which are live and completely IRC based with only the results posted on the forums.

All of these were approved. Some worked while others didn't. I think the main problem with live tournaments is that there is sometimes a lack of awareness and motivation to remember that most of these tournaments are on, so Live tournaments will require more co-ordination and promotion than non-live tournaments will. However, if that problem can be overcome successfully, there is nothing stopping people from hosting these tournaments regularly or irregularly, as long as the applicant can convince us that it will work out. A good way to do this is to promote and discuss the tournament idea beforehand so that the tournament directors know for a fact that people have shown interest.

I am perfectly fine with modifying the Tournament Listing to accommodate live tournament scheduling if you think that's a good idea.

edit: Also if I recall correctly there were going to be regular live Ubers tournaments run by locopoke but because there were already a lot of live tournaments scheduled (LNT and Smogon Tour) it was eventually called off.
 

matty

I did stuff a long time ago for the site
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
There are no rules against submitting applications for Live tournaments, regular or one-off. These have been attempted / done before in the LNT (which was a popular success and has had several seasons), the Draft Tournament Series (which only had 16-24 people play each week, possibly due to the IRC component), a one-off Draft Tournament (which involved signups a while prior to the actual tournament PLUS an IRC component which were the reasons for its complete failure), and The Codex Tournament Series (which was supposed to be regular but the host turned out to be far too busy to run it successfully, and it had a mediocre turnout of 26 people for the first one). There are also #stark cups which are live and completely IRC based with only the results posted on the forums.

All of these were approved. Some worked while others didn't. I think the main problem with live tournaments is that there is sometimes a lack of awareness and motivation to remember that most of these tournaments are on, so Live tournaments will require more co-ordination and promotion than non-live tournaments will. However, if that problem can be overcome successfully, there is nothing stopping people from hosting these tournaments regularly or irregularly, as long as the applicant can convince us that it will work out. A good way to do this is to promote and discuss the tournament idea beforehand so that the tournament directors know for a fact that people have shown interest.

I am perfectly fine with modifying the Tournament Listing to accommodate live tournament scheduling if you think that's a good idea.

edit: Also if I recall correctly there were going to be regular live Ubers tournaments run by locopoke but because there were already a lot of live tournaments scheduled (LNT and Smogon Tour) it was eventually called off.
Ya pretty much a better way of saying what I wanted too. I think what EW said is good advice, try it out and if its popular than it could become a popular format in the future. If you really wanted to run live tournaments, I would suggest maybe getting involved in #stark cups.

I've been involved in LNT for 2 seasons now and its kinda hit or miss (maybe cause the themes are bad haha). Some nights you have tons of people, sometimes you don't. Its cool to run live tournaments, but it does require a lot of organization and advertising beforehand. Also finding other people to help you is recommended. The live tournaments that were mentioned by EW weren't very "competitive". We just like to get together and dick around. Draft tournaments are fun to see people on IRC; LNTs are fun because the the themes are ridiculous and the people that play in them all the time are good friends for the most part. I'm just curious how more competitive tournaments would transfer over
 
Ya pretty much a better way of saying what I wanted too. I think what EW said is good advice, try it out and if its popular than it could become a popular format in the future

I've been involved in LNT for 2 seasons now and its kinda hit or miss (maybe cause the themes are bad haha). Some nights you have tons of people, sometimes you don't. Its cool to run live tournaments, but it does require a lot of organization and advertising beforehand. Also finding other people to help you is recommended.
For the record, my themes were great.

That being said, the key is hosting these tourneys at a time that is good for a majority of people (which the LNT weren't really (hi2u Europe)). This is why the Smogon Tour is now at different times each day. That way, everyone gets a chance.
 

locopoke

Banned deucer.
Smogon definitely needs more live tournaments, I've been saying that for a while. There needs to be a main thread for the tournaments, like LNT had, that specifies all of the different times and themes (although I think it'd be cool if they weren't gimmick tournaments, we have too many of those). There also needs to be tournaments at different times so people in any timezone can play at one point or another, this also requires a lot of hosts (at least like 6). I feel like this probably should have been going on already, and it would be awesome if this could get started up (sometime after Smogon Tour ends), I'd also be up for hosting some. I feel like Smogon is big enough where there should be constant live tournaments that anybody can just enter and play for fun, instead of having to wait for a new tournament to start which takes months and drags on for long periods of time.
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Like eric the espeon said, Pokemon Online ran live tournaments throughout the day. OU, UU, VGC, etc. If someone adds that functionality to the next sim, we can do that there too. It's easy enough to have people /join. There's always about 500 people on Shoddy after all.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top