How Powerful is Bluffing in Pokemon?

Now we all know CB Scizor Bullet Punch does more than LO Bullet Punch, which does more then Muscle Band, which is also true for Choice Specs>LO>Wise Glasses. However using a LO obviously gives away what item you have when you lose 10% of your health at the end of the turn. Choice Band yields tons of power, but there's no such thing as a free lunch. If you use a Muscle Band, you can pretendto be holding a Choice Band, and when your opponent switches in Jirachi to take the Bullet Punch, on the next turn you can either:


  • continue the bluff by switching out or using Bullet Punch, allowing you to play the bluff until you get the perfect opportunity to switch attacks and get a KO, or
  • use a Super Effective attack and possibly get a KO right there.
So my question/discussion for you, the people of Smogon is:

Is bluffing a Choice Band/Specs/Scarf by using Muscle Band/Wise Glasses/any item that boosts attack slimly, but doesn't cost anything, worth giving up the extra power that Choice items and Life Orb provide?

as well as

Is bluffing a powerful enough strategy OU/UU/Ubers to be worth playing?

Discuss.
 
I don´t know if bluffing a CB would be a good idea, because its purposes is not to surprise your opponent, but revenge as many threats as possible, which Muscle Band could never do. Also the damage output would be rather conspicious, and one would exspect that it is not CB. But in general you can say that bluffing items can be very valuable, especially on Pokemon that can run a plethora of different movesets(unlike Scizor). The best example in OU would be TTAR. You can easily fake a choiced Tar, while in reality it is expert belt or even lum berry. This can easily remove Scizor with Fire Punch presuming you have invested soem evs in speed.
It works, because many initial switch ins are Steels, and the damage output doesn´t differ significantly from a CB-Tar through the resistance.
A good example in ubers is Mewtwo. By using Leftovers you can fake a Calm Mind set with Ice Beam and Aurasphere(standard) and surprise Scizor with a super effective Flamethrower, or Kyogre with Thunder. You could use this to remove Scizor for example which will allow CM Refresh Latias to sweep.
 
As always... it depends. However, I can only speak from a UU perspective.

Currently there are no true standard sets for a majority of UU. Meaning that when a Pokemon switches in you have to expect any set is possible for that Pokemon as 'gimmick' sets are very common in UU. So with that in mind you can't really bluff a set in UU other than Scarf/Band; if it isn't a Scarf or a Band then generally the bluff item is worthless.

There are a few select cases however that bluffing an item was benificial. Gallade has recently been seen using Lum Berry. So slapping on a Choice item on him can really throw off your opponent's strategy on taking him down. I used Soft Sand Dugtrio during the 'last' UU Metagame. People assumed I was Choice Banded and switched in thier Mismaggius/ Rotom/ Ect... assuming they got a free turn of setup and were met with a 2HKO while they tried to setup.

So I would say No, bluffing items in UU would not be benificial for the long haul.
 
You shouldn't be using those items to bluff Choice Band or Choice Specs. Instead, you should use them to bluff a Choice Scarf. A person who is paying attention to the amount of damage being done would be able to tell if you are using a Choice Band/Choice Specs or not. Meanwhile, a Choice Scarf can be bluffed if you pretend to use the pokemon as a revenge killer and only use it on slower pokemon.

As far as I know, bluffing in OU and Ubers - the only metagames I play right now - is a good strategy. In OU, commonly Scarfed threats such as Heatran and Flygon can bluff to get surprise kills. Similarly, Palkia would often hold a Lustrous Orb to bluff as a Scarfer by switching into Kyogre and get a surprise kill. Dialga - who can run a plethora of sets - can also do something similar to that. Also, Kyogre - although I am not using him as an example of bluffing a Scarfer - mere presence causes players to assume it's holding Choice Specs and immediately switch into their water absorber; thus, allowing it to either set-up with Calm Mind or KO the switch in with a different attack.
 
bluffing band azumarril is pretty effective in UU, it's pretty easy to grab a few venusaur and feraligtr/azumarril kills. switch in on say blaziken or moltres and aqua jet, then if they switch into a grass or water, ice punch or superpower grabs a kill. I usually run lum berry to take a sleep powder if it has to.

The best example i can think of in OU is probably Heatran or Flygon. Heatran can fire off a Fire Blast, switch, then next time in hit the fire resist with Earth Power or Hidden Power, or even sub up and toxic.

Flygon can fake Scarf by attacking then switching out, and whenever Salamence comes in on a supposed Choiced EQ, flygon hits it with outrage. Or it can run mixed EV's, and fire off Draco Meteors to hit stuff like Gliscor hard.
 
@Chii- I dunno why I was thinking of Scizor. Actually thinking Scizor wouldn't work. It's just when I think of "Choice Band" I think of Scizor.

@Exclamation Point-You're saying people don't try to status Gallade because they assume it has Lum? That's something I didn't think of yet, so that's a good point to bring up.

So building off of what I think Exclamation Point said, bluffing can also be used to shield status. Or, in reverse, can also be used to force switches. A prime example is Rotom-A. If you send out Rotom-c on a Swampert it will switch to a Grass resist. Using Rotom-c you can force Swampert to switch out without having to carry Leaf Storm because most Rotom-c do. You can keep this bluff going for a while until your opponent gets confident and keeps Swampert in to see through your bluff. Of course, you could get REALLY complicated and play like you DON'T have Leaf Storm and when the Swampert stays in you attack, but I'll try to stay simpler than that (although that is a viable strategy).

So: you can bluff moves, items, status...

Keep discussing unless I'm boring.
 
Sometimes it works very well. Tyranitar bluffing CB can net many, many kills. With some speed, Flamethrower, Pursuit/Crunch, etc. you can easily get some easy kills. Pursuit a latias/rotom, Scizor or Skarmory or Forry switch in, and you fry em.

Unfortunately, bluffing only works the first time and repeated battles put you at a disadvantage.
 
I sometimes do similar things to that. Like I use Sand Veil Dugtrio, and a lot of time people just presume I'm using Arena Trap.

Same with something like Bronzong. People won't use Earthquake on it, just in case. However, they do find out eventually, and, with the Bronzong, you can't switch into Earthquake, which is annoying.
 
I always bluff, as long as theres little risk involved. Risk vs Reward, basic concept.

If it wasnt for bluffing and conditioning your opponents, everyone would be SO close to the same skill level.

So yeah, its powerful xP
 
Same with something like Bronzong. People won't use Earthquake on it, just in case. However, they do find out eventually, and, with the Bronzong, you can't switch into Earthquake, which is annoying.
You also have to realize that Bronzong will take damage from spikes as well.

All in all, bluffing depends on the pokemon's ability to do so and on the person's ability to exploit the pokemon's ability. Sorry if that sounded like crap. Also, since all berries don't immediately activate, they can be bluffed for one another. However, that seems a bit to gimmicky and probably wouldn't work for bluff.
 

Syberia

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I sometimes do similar things to that. Like I use Sand Veil Dugtrio, and a lot of time people just presume I'm using Arena Trap.
Why would you do that? It doesn't cost a player anything to check which ability your Dugtrio has, and plenty of people check, in case someone inputted their ability wrong on Shoddy. The purpose of bluffing is to get a surprise kill, not to hope that you'll have a 20% chance to survive an extra turn in certain conditions. Sand Veil Dugtrio is just stupid.
 
Why would you do that? It doesn't cost a player anything to check which ability your Dugtrio has, and plenty of people check, in case someone inputted their ability wrong on Shoddy. The purpose of bluffing is to get a surprise kill, not to hope that you'll have a 20% chance to survive an extra turn in certain conditions. Sand Veil Dugtrio is just stupid.
Agreed ^

Bluffing should never be done using abilities. Heatproof/Levitate Bronzong is NOT worth losing the ability to switch into ground moves. Also what Syberia means is, if the opponent wants to switch out vs Duggy, they are gonna try regardless of what they "think", just to be safe. Also, said already, spikes ruins that bluff as well, not to mention if you get burned with will o wisp, itll do less damage, which also gives away your plan.

The best way to bluff IMO is to use say...Tyranitar, switch it into Rotom (assume you know he wont will o wisp, or dont have it, this is just an example) You can go straight for the crunch as he switches, and now he will assume you dont have pursuit, so next time hes facing your Tyranitar, hes gonna switch again, and faint. This works on Azelfs, Starmies, w/e

Another great one is faking scarfed Heatran. Switch it into a faster Pokemon, when you have OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE. If you switch something else in first, people will assume your just hoping you can survive a hit, and stay in. If you come in right after something faints to "revenge kill", they will 95% of the time switch out. Say they have a Lucario or something out, whos obviously faster then your Heatran w/o scarf, and they go to Cune to take the obvious Fire move. Switch out to say...Bliss/Vaporeon/anything safe, congrats, in your opponents eyes, your Heatran is scarfed. The risk is, he can just stay in and close combat. But in a tournament setting, people dont assume someone would take such a risk, which is why this is a viable strategy.

This game isnt about knowing what your going to do, its about learning what your opponent is going to do quicker then he learns about you. The first turns in the game, before a Pokemon is knocked out are the most important imo, this crap can win games.
 
im gonna look at this from a suspect viewpoint, cuz thats the only thing ive been doing recently

yes

i interpret the point of bluffing as getting surprise kills, and bluffing is a great way to do that
im gonna post my latias set:
Latias@Haban Berry
-Draco Meteor
-Hidden Power [Fire]
-
-

the thing is, you switch it into garchomp, even better if you know its a scarfchomp, fire a meteor, and they switch in scizor but dont see any recoil or leftovers recovery, and by dougs statistics they can only assume im choiced. and draco meteor + HP fire is a guaranteed KO.
now of course this is minimal risk switching it into chomp, since the haban will let it survive anything chomp can throw at it, which is another plus if their chomp is actually scarfed

which of course lets whatever hates scizor (garchomp, salamence (lol), or whatever sweep)
 

Lee

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Is bluffing a powerful enough strategy OU/UU/Ubers to be worth playing?
I think the only bluffing that should be factored into your 'strategy' is as an aspect of luring. Anything else should be saved for times of desperation...sure, bluffing can be handy if you find yourself in a tight situation but when designing your team and playing matches you should be doing everything you can to make sure that you don't need to bluff.

The best bluffs are often the most risky ones (a popular one I see mentioned is switching a non-Scarf Flygon into Latias in an attempt to force her out or doing a similar thing with Heatran vs Heatran); if the opponent doesn't fall for your bluff then you've just lost a valuable member of your team. It doesn't seem too sensible to constantly make moves like that unless you absolutely have to and this is especially true on the ladder where consistency is everything.
 
in DP I constantly Bluffed with heracross, giving the impression that it was scarfed when it was actually banded. I did a similar thing with Kyogre in ubers.
 
You shouldn't be using those items to bluff Choice Band or Choice Specs. Instead, you should use them to bluff a Choice Scarf. A person who is paying attention to the amount of damage being done would be able to tell if you are using a Choice Band/Choice Specs or not. Meanwhile, a Choice Scarf can be bluffed if you pretend to use the pokemon as a revenge killer and only use it on slower pokemon.
I would argue it depends on the Pokemon you're using. Let's take the example of this Tyranitar set I have been running recently:


Tyranitar (M) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 156 Atk / 160 SAtk / 192 Spe
Brave nature (+Atk, -Spe)
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Pursuit
- Flamethrower
377 Attack, 266 Special Attack, and 185 Speed is hardly shabby, especially when you add in its natural bulk. This Tyranitar is a typical check to Latias, as it can come in after something faints and scare Latias away. 377 Attack allows Tyranitar to OHKO 252 HP / 0 Def Latias with Pursuit on the switch almost all the time (or Crunch if it stays in). Provided you use the correct move (almost always Pursuit), Latias will faint. Because of the Strict Damage Clause, the opponent will have no idea what item Tyranitar is running, but generally assumes that it is a Choice Band variant.

Latias is often paired with Scizor or Lucario, so instintively the opponent may switch them in to U-turn or Swords Dance to help gain momentum/set up a sweep. Only, Tyranitar outspeeds most Scizor (well over 60% ran less than 50 EVs in October, and 76 EVs are needed to even draw level with Tyranitar), and OHKOes it with Flamethrower. Lucario takes 87%-103% (1/3 chance of an OHKO after SR), pretty much eliminating any chance of a sweep. Forretress? OHKOed. Even 252 HP / 252 SDef Skarmory, who may want to set up Spikes, is 2HKOed.

It doesn't stop there though - Rock Slide deals 90% to 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados who may want to DD up on an apparent CB Pursuit. It also OHKOes standard BulkyGyara 92% of the time after Stealth Rock damage.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is you can fit bluff Pokemon onto your team excellently, but often it just *won't* work because it's too obvious. This Tyranitar does exactly what it was made to do (check Latias and to a lesser extent, Rotom-A), yet it manages to often nab a surprise KO on the next turn. I've found this Tyranitar an amazing Pokemon simply because nowadays people often get greedy and go for a Swords Dance when they are running purely from assumption.

One thing I would say, though, is that you should always try to stick to highly accurate moves when using a bluff, because I find if I miss with a bluff Pokemon, not only because it cannot surprise the opponent next time, but they also tend to gain a mega upper hand as often you have to switch your bluff out of the threatening set up Pokemon (or alternatively, faint).
 
The thing with bluffing, is that you don't include a bluff Pokémon in your team for the sake of bluffing.

Everytime I've used a bluff, the Pokémon has an actual use other than just bluffing.

For example, once I used Muscle Band Duggy in UU. Its purpose was to lure out Ghost-types, and Honchkrow. I managed to revenge something like Registeel or Drapion with Earthquake, then they'd try to take advantage and set up/Pursuit or Drill Peck me, only to get slammed with Shadow Claw/Stone Edge. The same Dugtrio ran Substitute to beat Sucker Punchers.

It was an effective set, since it removed Rotom and Honchkrow, two big threats for my sweeper, a Roosting Swellow.

My point is, make sure the bluff fills another role, and the bluffing itself is a side effect.
 
The only item that seems worthwhile with this is an expert belt on something with great coverage. The only 2 pokes I know of that actually do this somewhat regularly are jirachi and ttar. Unless you can actually beat what you expect to switch in(jirachi can't ko magetzone with fire punch, it needs earth power) then there really is no reason to use it.
 
Actually thinking Scizor wouldn't work
Actually, I sometimes use Iron Plate Scizor, to great effect. Basically, you use the standard SD Set, but with BP, Superpower and U-turn. Spam U-turn like you normally would, and BP when neccessary, but don't switch attacks; just switch out. And when they least expect it, SD, and bring home the bacon.
The beauty of the Iron Plate is that is gives ALMOST the same boost to your main SD attack (Bullet Punch), without recoil and the ability to bluff a CB.
You can also U-turn out of a Magnezone who uses Thunderbolt>HP Fire. The drop in power could also be attributed to a Bulky Spread.
 

EspyJoel

Espy <3
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Expert Belt and type resist berries are the best ways of bluffing a Choice item. I've been using Expert Belt Latias for over a week in Suspect and it works great catching many Scizor and others switching in on Draco Meteor only to be taken by HP Fire. This especially helps my team since Scizor U-turning and Bullet Punching all over the place can hurt my team. Obviously this is weakened by when you play an opponent again, but I still think its a pretty effective strategy if you want to lure a Pokemon in and it helps your team, and your opponent may be more conservative next time with switching Scizor in to Latias if they know its got HP Fire and Expert Belt or whatever.
 
With a different kind of bluffing, you can get a free setup.
Often I will switch my Azelf into an Infernape after Nape kills something. The opposing player will probably assume I have Psychic (NP/Flamethrower/GK/HP Ice) and switch out.
This allows me a free Nasty Plot.
 
In response to all the bad press about Heatproof Bronzong. I use rain teams, and my Bronzong only needs one turn to set up rain and win me the game. With my hyper-offensive strategy, they almost never have spikes up and I am not switching in to anything, so I can take the Fire Blast from Heatran/Infernape once, set up rain, and win the game. This is the only situation I have found where Heatproof Bronzong is viable, however.
 
Heatproof Bonzong would work pretty well as a lead, but again it'd only be on a Rain Dance team really (or a Sunny Day team lol). That halved fire damage means you are certain to set up your weather, and maybe get a chance to explode as well.

That's not really bluffing though, just taking advantage of everyone assuming automatically that Bronzong has levitate. If spikes are not on the field you can switch him on on something like Flygon that just EQd for a kill, leading your opponent to believe that you are using Levitate. When they switch in their Heatran you go for a KO with EQ while Fire Blast fails to KO you. Situational true, but still seems effective.
 
I used to run Heatproof Zong because, as people have said, nobody checks for it. I had other Pokemon who I could switch into EQ (this was before and right after Chomp's ban where it was necessary), so it was easy to keep the bluff going. I always got surprise kills on things like Infernape where they expect to KO but get themselves knocked out by EQ instead. Realistically, Levitate is almost always the superior choice, but in the right cirumstances the bluff can change the game.
 

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