ORAS Ubers How to check Pdon, MMence and Ho-Oh (Stall Team, pkd ~1700, top 10)

RMT STALL.jpg


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Hey there!! It's Antacool, back for a new RMT, an ORAS Ubers Stall Team!
This is a successful original team, who permits me to reach the Top 10 Ubers ladder with a score of 1688.

As you may know, I like to innovate and build teams who work well in Ubers and while having some originalities. Stall is a playstyle I still don't play with since the beginning of ORAS, so I wanted to build a team based around Solrock, a Pokemon I already used in Ubers for different roles (Trick Room setter to be precise). Stall required some skills, predictions, a bit of luck... and a lot of free time to play with (That I don't really have at the moment)


Anyway, here is the teambuilding bellow!





I started with a Physically Defensive "Stallrock". Why a Pokemon like this in Ubers you will ask me, simple, he's able to check 3 of the most powerful Ubers titans, and these are also the 3 harder Pokemon to check with their excellent stats and offensive pressure (considering there are fully Physical):
Groudon-Primal, Ho-Oh, and Mega-Salamence!
Which is pretty ironic because Solrock is a simple PU Pokemon who has a ton of weaknesses, and pretty low stats. How could you underestimate this Ubers rock Star?




What is a Stall team without the Great Wall? Lugia is by far one of the best Tank in the game, and Multiscale makes it so so bulky. He is a second Pokemon who is able to check Groudon-Primal and Mega-Salamence, and a ton of other ones. Plus, a really good point is its good Speed stat allowing him to stall easier with its Multiscale ability, thanks to a fast Roost.



Every good stall team must have a win condition, so I added a CM Refresh Darkceus. It's typing sponges the basic Dark and Ghost weaknesses, and Dark is a good typing as a mono offensive move in Ubers despite the big presence of Xerneas, Klefki and Diancie. He can also absorb some status like Toxic, that Solrock and Lugia abolutely hate.



AHHHH, here it is, the second most original Pokemon. Specially Defensive Mega-Mawile. Nope that's not a joke. And I'm surprised that this monster in not used at all in Ubers (Oh I see the Mega Stone slot nvm). So, this is my Mega and it faints an offensive set with its access to Stealth Rocks and Pain Split. This is actually one of the best Pokemon to counter a plethora of threats, like Darkrai, CM Darkceus, Yveltal, Latias and Xerneas! Mawile and Darkceus has also a great offensive synergy together, which can make the true difference in a battle. They also form a duo who can deal pretty nicely with the most common Defoggers.



I needed a Spiker, so Ferrothorn is of course added. Leech Seed is also amazing in Stall, and Ferro can help the teammates by checking Primal-Kyogre, E-Killer Arceus, Diancie, Rockceus, and also come to most stallers to setup the Spikes.




Yes, I'm one of the player who cannot play Ubers without Groudon-Primal.
I wanted a way to remove easily those Steel types and neutralize HP Fire / Focus Blast Xerneas, and more importantly, another Status absorber. Specially Defensive Pdon was a great choice.
To resume, a defensive Rest Talker who absorbs EVERY status in the game, and who abuses its dual typing combined with Desolate Land allowing him to check a ton of Pokemon.



Now, let's go to the presentation of the team! (Names are in French)


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Soleil (Solrock) @ Leftovers / Red Card
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Toxic / Recycle
- Stone Edge
- Will-O-Wisp / Recycle
- Morning Sun

Solrock really has a niche in Ubers. He has got the Rock type combined with Levitate, allowing him to resist to Normal, Flying and Fire while being immune to Ground. And this makes the Sun a good response to threatening Ubers named Mega-Salamence, Ho-Oh, Groudon-Primal, and non Water move Rayquaza (so I understand why Ray uses Surf...or I'm wrong?)
Seriously, this is a good physical defensive Pokemon, without being exceptionnal, with its 343HP and 295 Defense. Morning Sun is a reliable way of recovering, with Sand being rare in Ubers and Primordial See that not stay on the field after Primal Kyogre switch out. Plus, Morning Sun under opposite Primal Groudon's Desolate Land recovers a trollish 67% HP!
Will-O-Wisp takes care of non Fire type physical Sweepers, while Toxic is here to put a timer on Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh lives'.
Stone Edge is his STAB, obligatory here to break Ho-Oh and non Roost Mence subs.
Otherwise, here is a little problem, Solrock loses to Roost DD Sub Mega-Salamence and others threats like this using Sub and wasting Stone Edge's PPs. Red Card, while reducing a lot Solrock's staying power, can be a great choice to force the Sub sweeper to quit the field, because Solrock will generally survive a resisted move so Red Card could be activated. Recycle could be used if Solrock survives and recovers, to get back his Red Card (this original tactic worked pretty nicely in one of the replays bellow). This option helps immensely Lugia who is not forced to take a powerful hit to phaze the threat, especially if Stealth Rocks are on the field.




Mur genial (Lugia) @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
- Roost
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Whirlwind

Lugia is the main Staller of the team, who checks mainly... everything.
Seriously, Mixed Groudon-Primal, Roost Mega-Salamence, Arceus Ground and Rayquaza mainly. Because my other members have trouble to deal with these threats most of the time. This is the reason that I use Ice Beam to hurt them hard, and sometimes freeze hax which happend more often than I thought which is pretty fun, especially when it happends on a Steel type who wants to wall Lugia. Toxic is the obligatory move on Lugia to Stall and Stall and Stall... Roost for Recovery, and to take neutral damage on Ice, Rock and Electric moves. Whirlwind because it's a Lugia. You will not let a sweeper boost to +6 level until Toxic takes it down. Phazing also make the foe's Pokemon taking Hazards damage.
The speed investment is here to outspeed up to max speed 95 BS like Kyurem and Rayquaza, and below such as Modest Xerneas (this mattered a lot in a replay) and Primal forms, which is great to activate as many times as possible Multiscale.




Condition de gain (Arceus-Dark) @ Dread Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Def / 168 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Refresh Defog
- Recover

Arceus Dark is the only Pokemon who can boost its stats in my team. He's a nice late game cleaner as well as being a useful Stall Breaker thanks to Refresh, when there's no Xerneas or any Fairy type in general who can trouble Him such as Unaware Clefable. He also checks greatly Ghost types, which is important for Lugia and Solrock, plus the Specially Offensive based Mewtwo forms. He also acts as a secondary Dark mon check, like Yveltal and Drakrai. Judgment is its only attacking move who is sufficient in general. Refresh removes a nasty status like Thunder Wave, Burn or Toxic. Calm Mind boosts its bulk and power and makes it harder to Revenge Kill, and Recover to regain health. Defog helps the team greatly by removing Entry Hazards, and more importantly Lugia who appreciate the absence of Stealth Rocks to preserve Multiscale. Pretty Standard actually.




Machouille (Mawile) @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Play Rough
- Stealth Rock
- Pain Split

Machouille is the 4th member who is my Klefki like wall, so X and Y Legends, Dark mons and Lati twins check. He posseses the great avantage to have raw power, even without any attack investment. He puts enough pressure with STAB Play Rough and 500 in Attack, who deals heavy damage to most Pokemon in Ubers. Defensive Mawile is also one of the best and underrated Pokemon to deal with the most common Stall Breakers, like Taunt Yveltal. He also takes greatly avantage of its power to place a support move on obvious switch ins like Primal Groudon, by placing Stealth Rocks (and can do this again easily against Defog Latias during the match). Toxic punishes main Mawile counters who are not Steel Types: Pdon, Ho-Oh and Groundceus mainly. Pain Split is used when Mawile is at low HP (around 40% usually) to steal opponents HP (like Regenerated Ho-Oh) and work pretty nicely with good predicts, thanks to low base Mawile's HP stat. Finally, Mawile is the Pokemon who generally leads, deal with Deoxys, etc.



Boule epineuse (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Gyro Ball

The classic Spdef Ferrothorn. He checks Thunder Wave and Toxic stallers, Kyogre-Primal, and most Arceus E-Killer for my team. He setups Spikes, some very needed Hazards to make Stall even more effective. Leech Seed drains slowly but surely opponent's HP, and Protect is here combined with Leech Seed to help Ferro recovers his life, and scout choice locked moves like Banded Ho-Oh (quite important for PP stalling I guess). Gyro Ball to hit hard in general and eliminate Xerneas, Diancie,... This is also pretty standard. Uh, what, you still prefer The Swords Dance Ferrothorn under Trick Room?? Yes me too, don't worry ^^

upload_2015-4-4_1-55-50.jpeg


Pionceur (Groudon) @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar


The Undying Primal Pokemon. Wow. This thing Ladies and Gentlemen. Is broken.
Groudon Primal stalls so easily with its great mixed bulk and full immunity to status. Only powerful Ground moves and Surf Ray could break it, or Primal Kyogre of course. Other than that, it's very easy to use. Spam Lava Plume to roast Steels and burn others mons who are not Fire type (but hey, there's Solrock for them). Roar setup Sweepers or Geomancy Xerneas. Then use Rest when you're at low HP. Then use Sleep Talk to continue to Stall like a don while asleep. The reparts are obviously made on Special Defense, and 24 Spe is to speed creep other uninvested 90's, which is nice when you phaze them while asleep for example.


Threatlist:

Actually the most common ORAS threats are pretty well countered (Xerneas, Mence, Ekiller, Darkrai, Ho-Oh, Ray), the biggest threats are:

- Choiced Mold Breaker like Dragons, like Choice Specs Kyurem-W and Reshiram (pretty rare still)
- Shadow Ball Ho-Oh (oh my god), nah seriously, Sub variants if no Red Card on Solrock, Choice Band if Red Card
- Sub Roost DD Mence, once again without Red Card on Solrock
- Choice band Ho-Oh + Defog + Mbounce cores, hard to deal with them in general
- Mega-Gengar who traps and kill easily Solrock and Lugia


Replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-222475103
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-221840209
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-221841858 (A Reshiram team :o)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-221857136
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-221871900
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-222568236
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-222569662
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-222570048 (Red Card worked so nicely ^^)



That's it, I would be pleased to to have any comments, a like, suggests,... and I would like to thank all of you to read my RMT and compliment my original teams :)
Now let's SolRock!
 
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Pastebin:

Soleil (Solrock) @ Red Card
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Recycle
- Stone Edge
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

Pionceur (Groudon) @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar

Machouille (Mawile) @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Play Rough
- Stealth Rock
- Pain Split

Mur genial (Lugia) @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
- Roost
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Whirlwind

Condition de gain (Arceus-Dark) @ Dread Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Def / 168 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Defog
- Recover

Boule epineuse (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Gyro Ball
 
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Thought it would be your Trick Room team =[. Cool team though, innovative as always. Will drop a rate later maybe if I find the time

:)
 

Aberforth

Californium is PoMMan now.
is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I am slightly concerned with two things. Firstly, the lack of defog considering lugia, and secondly the lack of any pursuit user on any stall team, because perish trap/dbond gengar taking out ferrothorn leaves the team quite weak to kyogre in my opinion, as it can come in on groudon and get a kill most of the time. Somewhat weirdly, I feel that groudon is the most expendable member on your team, and could be replaced with something like a supporting scizor, which is usually used with a mega stone, but I quite like your mawile (it's also my favourite pokemon, so there might be some bias there).

Using this scizor set

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Roost
- Defog
- Pursuit


would help the team in my opinion, as groudon doesn't appear to be there for much more than being annoying, and I think would fail to really check much. Lack of ground stab also means that it cant do anything to Kyogre.

In explanation of these evs, you live +2 focus blast from xerneas after coming in on rocks and leftovers recovery, and can 2hko xerneas with bullet punch after stealth rock damage on it. Roost also means you wont be worn down coming in on it if it decides to just go for an attack to weaken you.

This might make your team a tad steel heavy unfortunately, which (to my regret), leaves me wondering if you should change mawile to something like stalltwo-x for things like ekiller and cm arceus forms, while putting stealth rocks on solrock, but I cannot bring myself to actually recommend that change.

Hope this helped.
 
you need defog and a cleric/magic bouncer since arceus-dark can't really sponge status too reliably. Pursuit is also something to consider when running gengar weak mons and a groudon that can't touch latis.

Mawile/Solrock/Darkceus are all relatively wasted slots. Running a CM Arc on stall deprives you of the option to have a solid glue against threats that threaten your core and just misses to point of running fat shit- having true win conditions vs other stall is a lux this tier and you can't really compensate for the lack of defog arc/glue check in this case. Mawile can just as well be replaced by SR mega diancie, which gives you the exact same supportive traits as well as a magic bouncer. I can't really suggest too many chances as I normally don't build the "trial and error"-way so it becomes really hard for me to change up stuff in an existent build without just suggesting some of my own. Good luck on the team though.
 

Malley

Dominachu
Hi antacool,

I love your teambuilding philosophy, and I love even more that you find success with it. I remember facing you on the mid-to-high ladder with your Liepard team, which says it all really. That said, though, I do have some concerns about this team.

Using any kind of stall without Defog is generally a bad idea, and with you relying so much on Lugia it's frankly bizarre. You have no way to stop rocks from any of the common setters, apart from perhaps threatening a CM Darkceus sweep from the start, so I'm basically going to second Hack and PomMan in saying that Defog on Darkceus should make this team much more solid. Stall struggles enough against ORAS offence as it is.

It also seems like Groudon could be very easy to wear down, or to simply sweep through if you get bad Sleep Talk picks. It doesn't have the Lugia-style fast recovery, so once it checks a threat (e.g. GeoXern, Kyogre, Darkrai) it will be at low HP without a free turn in which to recover, removing it as a possible check later on in the game. You seem happy with it, and unfortunately I can't watch the replays at the moment to see how you get around this, but as a stall 'mon it honestly seems very unreliable, and there are definitely better options. With it weakened just down to half, and with rocks up or Lugia damaged, GeoXern easily sets up on Darkceus or Solrock and sweeps your team. Judgment + Play Rough does not bring it down. A combination of Darkrai and Xerneas (e.g. that found on mindless hyper offence) is particularly deadly, as Groudon is your only sleep absorber and takes at the very least 50% (Bad Dreams + one Dark Void) from switching in on a Dark Void. A Magic Bouncer somewhere would certainly remove a lot of this pressure.

There are other things, such as the lack of a cleric, Magic Bouncer, and Pursuiter, but the posts above have pretty much covered them. Sorry I haven't suggested any solid changes - I build stall too, and everything I think of is just a step closer to turning this into one of my teams.

Some other threats I can see, if their single counters are sufficiently pressured (rocks assumed up):
  • Darkrai - see above.
  • Calm Mind Ghostceus - Darkceus is the only thing stopping this, and if it's your defogger it will be under a lot of pressure already.
  • Rock Polish Groudon - You say you check this, but once it sets up you just have Solrock, and that's already only a once- or twice-a-game check to Mence and Ho-Oh.
  • Ho-Oh - this is on your threatlist, so I'm not so much drawing attention to it as wondering why it's also in the title as one of the three things this team is built to check.
  • Calm Mind Kyogre - Possibly the biggest common threat apart from Mega-Gengar. +1 Origin Pulse 2HKOs Ferrothorn; if Origin Pulse doesn't miss, Leech Seed + Protect can't stall Ogre out. SpDef Groudon takes 39.3 - 46.5%*2 if it wants to switch in and Roar it out, and there's not much stopping Ogre setting up again.
  • Calm Mind Groundceus (sensing a theme here) - I know this is generally inferior to SD Groundceus and other CM forms, but it is used, and the only thing stopping it is Solrock's Red Card or Darkceus winning a Calm Mind war.

You do pretty well against mixed attackers though, which are often a nightmare for stall, so that's nice.

Really cool team, and good luck!
 
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I am slightly concerned with two things. Firstly, the lack of defog considering lugia, and secondly the lack of any pursuit user on any stall team, because perish trap/dbond gengar taking out ferrothorn leaves the team quite weak to kyogre in my opinion, as it can come in on groudon and get a kill most of the time. Somewhat weirdly, I feel that groudon is the most expendable member on your team, and could be replaced with something like a supporting scizor, which is usually used with a mega stone, but I quite like your mawile (it's also my favourite pokemon, so there might be some bias there).

Using this scizor set

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Roost
- Defog
- Pursuit


would help the team in my opinion, as groudon doesn't appear to be there for much more than being annoying, and I think would fail to really check much. Lack of ground stab also means that it cant do anything to Kyogre.

In explanation of these evs, you live +2 focus blast from xerneas after coming in on rocks and leftovers recovery, and can 2hko xerneas with bullet punch after stealth rock damage on it. Roost also means you wont be worn down coming in on it if it decides to just go for an attack to weaken you.

This might make your team a tad steel heavy unfortunately, which (to my regret), leaves me wondering if you should change mawile to something like stalltwo-x for things like ekiller and cm arceus forms, while putting stealth rocks on solrock, but I cannot bring myself to actually recommend that change.

Hope this helped.
I recognize what you're saying with this but I think at this point you pick mega scizor or mawhile but not both. If Solrock were to get trapped that'd be like sending P-don a personal invitation to push your shit in.

As for recommendations
I'd say switch Maw for the recommended Scizor set.
I love M-maw but M-Scizor removing rocks is very necessary.
That being said you also made it to top 10 so this may be one of those things that look questionable on paper but in action is absolutely incredible.

Do with this as you will.
 
Hey Ubers,

First of all, thank you a lot for your comments and suggests, and sorry for my late response, I couldn't ladd earlier than today.

I made some changes, I tried Defog Mega-Scizor, and my points of view on about you said are the following lines:

- You were completely right about Defog that is a mendatory move for my team (I always rely on opposent's Defog so maybe it's the reason I never consider this move when building a team ^^). SR are too much problematic for Lugia and I was forced to run Red Card Solrock to compensate this weakness. Defog + Lefties Solrock + Multiscaled Lugia is the best combination. Red Card makes Solrock weak to CB Ho-Oh, but the basic aim of this team is to check this threat!
Arceus Dark is the best candidate for this move. I replaced Refresh with Defog because Refresh is not that useful finally. Calm Mind is still here to put pressure on Defoggers, as always.

- Defog Scizor... Well. A bit overrated imo. Primal Groudon has a free time to put Stealth Rocks on this thing, and he's the most common setter... Plus, Scizor doesn't bring useful resistances for my team. You say he can replace Primal-Groudon, but he loses to HP Fire Xerneas, and this Xerneas can sweep my whole team. Or Mega Mawile. Then Hello Yveltal, Darkceus, Darkrai. Scizor doesn't have any Dark resistance that I need absolutely to reduce the Darkrai weakness.

- Some of you don't appreciate the RestTalk Primal-Groudon. Maybe because it doesn't have any ground move so I respect your opinion. However, thanks to the synergy of the team, he really makes a good job. CM Primal-Kyogre was mentionned as one of the biggest threat for my team, and it is even more the case without Pdon. Even if it works once 100% of the time, Roar remove all CM boosts and still at 50% HP left, Primal Groudon can rest very easily on most Pokemon. Pdon can remove Primordial See and still has a chance to burn Primal Kyogre. He never gave me trouble until now because Ferro still check it nicely (and it's the main reason he's in my team), and at worst Multiscaled Lugia makes the job. Having an effective Steel type remover thanks to Lava Plume makes the games not last 200 turns by pivoting around steels types until they die to hazards, Freeze hax and PP waste, seriously. Finally, what can do my team against Scizor and Genesect without Primal Groudon?

- The lack of a cleric is sometimes annoying, but not that problematic, because my steels still absorb Toxic and Thunder Wave, and Primal Groudon everything (Burn is not that threatening on every other members,except Lugia which is really the Pokemon to protect). Honestly the only problem is mindgames vs Sleep Inducers (Darkrai would use Nasty Plot or Dark Void?) I can't really see who is a really good cleric in Ubers who fits in this team, but I consider all of your suggests and will try these.

- Please, don't underestimate Specially Defensive Mega-Mawile. I know nobody use it because of the Mega Stone slot, but he does really great in ORAS. You should try it at least one time. Its capacity to preserve Rocks against Latias and put them on Yveltal and Deoxys is really awesome. Toxic on Primal Groudons and Ho-Ohs is actually His Second Role and one of the keys to win, and not spamming the OP Play Rough, because again, this team is dedicated to counter these ALWAYS used pokemon who are very hard to check for every team.

-Mega-Diancie looks interesting on the paper but needs wish support to be effective I think, that I don't have in my team (every members can recover themselves). Mbounce is cool though, the non psychic resistance a bit less.

- I understand you that Pursuit is important for Mega-Gengar, for sure the biggest threat. But people still prefers running Mega Salamence and Mega Diancie over this. I don't really see the effectiveness of using a pretty frail Pursuiter when facing all these so common Mega Bouncers - Ho-Oh cores and physical Sweepers.

Everything is said I think, so Refresh->Defog on Darkceus is my only change, and I thank you all again for supporting this team! (I really like it)
To be continued...
 
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