In-Person Pokemon Tournaments

[ChiboSempai]

I'm an established tourney host for Super Smash Bros., and I play that game along with Pokemon competitively. One thing I've really thought about recently is how drastically different the tournament scene works. With smash you can find a real person tournament pretty much every weekend in almost every (active) state. Pokemon on the other hand is almost all online. The only in-person ones I know of are random un-advertised GameStop ones, and the annual Nintendo tournies.

After reading a lot of the posts in the Official Nintendo PKMN Tourney thread and seeing the discontent shown by plenty of players, why aren't there standard tourneys that are in-person to provide the experience the players want? The demand is obviously there, the turnout at the tournament today in Philly was far beyond 1,000 players counting both the senior and junior division.

Problems with the Nintendo tourney though...
-Some rules not implemented like sleep clause
-Doubles only
-Cap on entrants
-Single elimination
etc.

After seeing the giant crowd at the tourney today it got me wanting to run in-person Pokemon tourneys. As it is I've already got a great location with living right in Philadelphia and having access to some nice venues.

What would people think of events like this?

-Singles and Doubles tournaments
-Entry fee for each (probably $5) and cash prizes paid to the top 3 or so depending on how many ppl enter
-Double elimination
-Proper rules
-Possibility of side events such as UU singles

Is this an idea I should pursue that would be supported by the players on this site?

 

[ultimatedra]

Problems with the Nintendo tourney though...
-Some rules not implemented like sleep clause
How will you enforce this? it is not possible on the DS to have sleep/freeze clause

-Entry fee for each (probably $5) and cash prizes paid to the top 3 or so depending on how many ppl enter
I would check your local laws. If there is ANY sort of profit gain for you as the person running this, or giving cash in this manner, you can be arrested for Illegal Electronic Gambling

^Check my bolded responses.

In addition, you should talk to your local Pokemon PTO (Primer Tournament Organizer), and ask if you could run a DS tournament along side of their TCG tournaments. The PTO already paid for the Tournament space, so you will not have to pay anything.

People around here should get more accustomed to POP (Pokemon Organized Play) and TPCi (The Pokemon Company Intl.)

www.go-pokemon.com/op
http://go-pokemon.com/contactus.html

 

[Dr. Dave]

The Nintendo tournments will still hold the hearts of many in the U.S. especially since not everyone goes on smogon. Still, this is a viable opinion and could have potential.

 

[ChiboSempai]

^Check my bolded responses.

In addition, you should talk to your local Pokemon PTO (Primer Tournament Organizer), and ask if you could run a DS tournament along side of their TCG tournaments. The PTO already paid for the Tournament space, so you will not have to pay anything.

People around here should get more accustomed to POP (Pokemon Organized Play) and TPCi (The Pokemon Company Intl.)

www.go-pokemon.com/op
http://go-pokemon.com/contactus.html

Now that I think about it there is nothing you can do about the freeze clause on the DS, but as for sleep, if you attempt to put a second pokemon asleep then you are DQ'd. Oh crap what about if you aren't sure if a Pokemon has Natural Cure or something? Ok, well maybe a couple setbacks on that part lol. Still, thats not a huge problem though.

As for the deal with the cash, the Smash community has never had this problem, and I have even talked it over with my university (where I normally rent my venues) where it is ok to do. It's not considered gambling because it is a competition in which there is skill.

As for keeping watch of general rules though, I would have a tourney organizer set at every gathering of play stations, like 1 TO for every 2 or 4 battles going on.

The Nintendo tournments will still hold the hearts of many in the U.S. especially since not everyone goes on smogon. Still, this is a viable opinion and could have potential.

Oh yes definitely, this would just give us something to do the other 11 months of the year lol.

 

[Phizzlax]

I would love for pokemon tournaments to become as widespread and accessible as SSB(B/M) tourneys. I couldn't personally attend any as far as Philly (I live in MI) but I'm sure you would get a fair amount of support.

I would run tournaments here if I could run them anywhere other than in my basement -_-

Hack checking would be a pain and/or impossible. You could just allow "legal hacks" but a lot of players will feel cheated by this. I guess it's probably the same dilemma with official nintendo tournaments though.

 

[Qzahk]

Pokemon face-to-face might have an effect on strategy. Seeing your opponents face might have a Poker-ish effect on prediction and such.

 

[Dalevl]

If your participants don't mind not being able to use the New Pokemon Forms introduced in Platinum, you could hold the tournaments through PBR to implement the standard clauses used in singles, since that's basically the type of tournament your saying you want to advertise the most.

 

[Fightgar]

this sounds like an awesome idea, i'm sure many people may pay more then just 5$. after getting turned down in the tourney today, my mother and I discussed having an online registration, to avoid people from needlessly showing up, saving time, and getting an idea for the number of people showing up. I dont know if this would be tougher on somebody like you to pull off,but i'm sure it would help out greatly.

 

[False [old]]

The only major problem with PBR besides missing the new Formes is that you'd see each person's entire team right at the start of the match. That could be bypassed by just turning the TV off, I suppose.

 

[ChiboSempai]

PBR just isn't feasible. Atleast from a person like me who doesn't work for a large company, it's because of the number of TVs that are required. To give a comparison, a 40-60 person Smash tournament runs good with about 10 TVs, normally a 4:1 player to TV ratio is pretty good. Pokemon games last longer than smash, and it could bring a bigger crowd. It's hard enough getting the resources as it is for Smash, so one of the big appeals to me for running a Pokemon tourney is that it could just be a requirement to bring your DS, then you have a 1:1 ratio of player to "TV."

There is nothing we can really do about the Rotom forms or clauses, unless we make having Platinum be a requirement - in which the Rotom forms would battle correctly if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Veedrock]

I don't think this is really plausible. It's cool and there would be interest, but actual commitment and attendance will be disappointing. Not even Smogon Conventions have good turnouts right now. The number of actual Smogoners at each event is quite low (19 or less), not really exceptional numbers for something like this to take off. I don't want to see a lot of effort put into this for it to crash and burn, as much I like the idea.

EDIT: Well as long as you're not expecting the masses to swarm to occur I won't object :P

 

[ChiboSempai]

Even if only like 10 people from Smogon or something like that showed up it isn't bad. Naturally events would start small. Word would spread. There are a lot of casual players in the area that I'm sure would enter. The only way to start it up is to try it I guess.

So the first one off the bat doesn't turn out terrible, I could do a hybrid event and do like Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Singles only though) and then Pokemon. That will also help attract all of the Smash players in the tri-state area who also play Pokemon.

 

[ChiboSempai]

While I unfortunately can't rent rooms at my college during the summer (well, I'll see what I can do), if I'm not able to, the ETA for my first tournament will be October, which I will be able to announce formally in September. I would prefer to not have to wait so long, and would rather do it late July/early August, so I'll see if I can pull some strings. It will be hybrid Brawl and Pokemon to attract more players.

 

[Cathy]

I don't think the demand for in person pokemon tournaments is high. (The demand for official Nintendo events is high, especially among children and "casual players".) Since the pokemon community is fairly spread out, most people going to any given location will have to spend a fair amount of money to get there, and since the events will not be that popular, they stand to win 60-70% of some $50 pot. Since pokemon has more chance events than smash, even the best players can't be sure they will make back the money it cost them to get to the event. People are willing to go to an infrequent large in person tournament, but I don't think the pokemon community will have ever regular in person tournaments like the smash community.

In person events do have comradary and social interaction that isn't present online, but in most other respects, simulated pokemon is analytically better than the DS game. The main shortcoming right now is doubles but that will be rectified within a couple of months. (This is in stark contrast to the Brawl situation where the online is vastly inferior to the real game.)

There's also the whole issue of the way that playing on the DS game requires preparing an in-game team, which is just tedious and not part of the competitive game. You also have to decide what to do about "hacks" obviously, and recognise that they are impossible to detect, if you choose to disallow them.

The hybrid tournament is a smart idea, although most of the people who enter will probably not be from Smogon.

 

[ChiboSempai]

I don't think the demand for in person pokemon tournaments is high. (The demand for official Nintendo events is high, especially among children and "casual players".) Since the pokemon community is fairly spread out, most people going to any given location will have to spend a fair amount of money to get there, and since the events will not be that popular, they stand to win 60-70% of some $50 pot. Since pokemon has more chance events than smash, even the best players can't be sure they will make back the money it cost them to get to the event. People are willing to go to an infrequent large in person tournament, but I don't think the pokemon community will have ever regular in person tournaments like the smash community.

In person events do have comradary and social interaction that isn't present online, but in most other respects, simulated pokemon is analytically better than the DS game. The main shortcoming right now is doubles but that will be rectified within a couple of months. (This is in stark contrast to the Brawl situation where the online is vastly inferior to the real game.)

There's also the whole issue of the way that playing on the DS game requires preparing an in-game team, which is just tedious and not part of the competitive game. You also have to decide what to do about "hacks" obviously, and recognise that they are impossible to detect, if you choose to disallow them.

The hybrid tournament is a smart idea, although most of the people who enter will probably not be from Smogon.

If a player requests a hack check on the opposing team within reason (no requesting a check because they lost, i would need a reason to do so such as so and so is not able to learn this move or this combination of moves or this person really should not have lived statistically. I can run hack checks.

As for the sense of random elements in Pokemon, yes, things do happen, but that is also why every event I run in person is always done with double elimination brackets. You have another shot.

One of the big things I personally like about in person events are that the entire tournament is done that day (no multiple week tournaments like how they currently are online), social interaction as you said, you can start to make rankings theoretically (as there are plenty of state and regional rankings available for smash) since ranking online is really too tough because of the sheer amount of players. I also prefer the DS game much more than Shoddy Battle because Shoddy is yet to implement everything in the game (Secret Power and Custap Berry come to mind), and the RNG is pretty flawed. Hopefully Shoddy 2 will fix this in the coming months.

The money could be a nice drive for people. I heard a common question when listening to interviews of players at the Nintendo events - how long have you been playing the game? Which I would assume is in more of a competitive aspect. There is barely a competitive drive behind the game besides online fame (and enjoying it of course). The pot at events will start small, as my early events will probably be like $5 entry, figure 16 people will net the 1st place @ $48 with a 60% payout for them. Eventually entry can boost up to $10 when people catch onto the idea, and with more entrants, say $10 entry at 32 people, you will have $192 for first place. Pretty nice.

 

[Cathy]

If a player requests a hack check on the opposing team within reason (no requesting a check because they lost, i would need a reason to do so such as so and so is not able to learn this move or this combination of moves or this person really should not have lived statistically. I can run hack checks.

It's true that you can detect illegal stats, but it's impossible to detect a legal pokemon that was created out of thin air by an intelligent individual. And why even make a big deal about hacks? The competitive aspect of the game isn't concerned with acquiring pokemon. Some notable players don't even own the DS game. It would probably be better to just encourage people to hack the pokemon, but I realise that most people who play the DS game don't see it that way.

I also prefer the DS game much more than Shoddy Battle because Shoddy is yet to implement everything in the game (Secret Power and Custap Berry come to mind), and the RNG is pretty flawed. Hopefully Shoddy 2 will fix this in the coming months.

What's the problem with Secret Power? Secret Power can only paralyse in Link Battles. If you are referring to something else you will need to clarify.

The random number generator is completely fine. Feel free to review the source code or present some evidence suggesting that it's wrong, but you won't find anything amiss.

That said, it's true that there are some shortcomings with the pokemon engine and my new pokemon engine in Shoddy Battle 2 is quite a bit better.

The money could be a nice drive for people. I heard a common question when listening to interviews of players at the Nintendo events - how long have you been playing the game? Which I would assume is in more of a competitive aspect. There is barely a competitive drive behind the game besides online fame (and enjoying it of course). The pot at events will start small, as my early events will probably be like $5 entry, figure 16 people will net the 1st place @ $48 with a 60% payout for them. Eventually entry can boost up to $10 when people catch onto the idea, and with more entrants, say $10 entry at 32 people, you will have $192 for first place. Pretty nice.

It'll certainly be awesome if you actually get an in person pokemon tournament scene going. Though, there hasn't been a successful money tournament online yet and theoretically there should be a wider base of people willing to pay into one, since getting somewhere isn't a concern. Even your own attempt wasn't successful.

 

[ChiboSempai]

It's true that you can detect illegal stats, but it's impossible to detect a legal pokemon that was created out of thin air by an intelligent individual. And why even make a big deal about hacks? The competitive aspect of the game isn't concerned with acquiring pokemon. Some notable players don't even own the DS game. It would probably be better to just encourage people to hack the pokemon, but I realise that most people who play the DS game don't see it that way.

I agree, I don't care how people obtain pokemon, I do the same thing a lot of time as I like to focus more on battling than trying to obtain. Though it should still be illegal for players to just throw on all 31 IVs and the preferred nature and a PID that might not yield a legal combination. Not to mention breaking the 510 EV limit, no one can be too sure right away. To do an in-depth hack check I can take their game card, use a homebrew app that copies their save file onto a .sav file on my sd card, then open that on my computer with pokesav, get the pkm files for the pokemon in question, and run the legality checker program (or just check the values in pokesav). The whole process is actually really fast, probably like 2 minutes or so to do.

What's the problem with Secret Power? Secret Power can only paralyse in Link Battles. If you are referring to something else you will need to clarify.

Sorry about that, got the name mixed up. I didn't mean Secret Power, I meant Natural Gift, which can definitely be useful. Crobat with a Ganlon Berry and Natural Gift can be awesome.

It'll certainly be awesome if you actually get an in person pokemon tournament scene going. Though, there hasn't been a successful money tournament online yet and theoretically there should be a wider base of people willing to pay into one, since getting somewhere isn't a concern. Even your own attempt wasn't successful.

Haha yea, that sucked it never got off the ground. I think the main problem with that is that people are weary of sending money online to someone they don't know. Too many things can go wrong. There was technically nothing stopping me from collecting money, then running off with it. I would never do it, but getting people to believe my word is tough. With an in-person tourney they are handing the money to me in-person at the tournament the day of, and walking away with the prize money the same day. The trust factor plays a big role in tournaments with money.

 

[LR2K]

I know you desire smaller yet more frequent tournaments like smash, but do you think it would be more feasible to host mini-Regionals in several areas? I know the crowd will be much larger, but it will be a greater incentive to draw people, especially when scattered, to a larger event than your local college (unless you live in a Metropolitan area). Renting a convention center may be ridiculous, especially if said mini-Rs will try to have maybe 64 or less people, but with a decent enough entry fee you could cover the cost and serve a hefty prize (may have to be somewhere around $10 or more).

And although such tournaments will really be catering to serious competitors, I think to get these events off the ground, you will have to advertise at local game stores and even on other Pokemon forums. Although the first one may not be the most exciting, if we can ignite the competitive soul within many casual players with an intense final match, these events will grow in not only number but also in quality. My friend (Rayku on smashboards) and I would be more than happy to host one here in the Atlanta area.

The only real problem I foresee is the lack of sleep clause, which could really throw a monkey wrench in our endeavor. Sadly, trying to enforce such clause with referees would be nearly impossible, especially in a double elimination format with 64 people. I guess more people will have to pack Lum/Chesto berries/Sleep Talk for these tournaments.

 

[TAY]

Having in-person tournaments is something that I wish the Pokemon community had started long ago. Unfortunately, I do not think it is really feasible. In any given area, the number of people who know how to play even remotely well is disappointingly low. Holding these tournaments would rely on drawing in random little kids who would be beaten easily by anyone with experience. I doubt those kids would want to come back, unless they had friends involved or something.

There is also the issue of raising Pokemon on the DS being an extraordinarily lengthy and tedious process. Honestly I would encourage players to hack their Pokemon and then give them a once-over myself to make sure they aren't exceeding the bounds of the game. An alternative would be to just do matches on shoddybattle, which would eliminate hacking and EV training altogether, and presumably bolster the online community. It would also be much easier to give bad players a chance since they would be playing with a good team. Some of the mysticism is lost without the battle animation, but, presuming enough computers could be found, it more than makes up for it with speed and ease of preparation.

That said, I know there are at least four Smogoners besides myself in the Sacramento area, and I know some 'random little kids' who play Pokemon on the DS quite extensively (no I'm not a pedophile I was a tutor). I also know the owner of a collectible games shop so I have a location. When I come back home for the summer I might give this a shot, though I wouldn't expect it to last =(.

 

[ChiboSempai]

I know you desire smaller yet more frequent tournaments like smash, but do you think it would be more feasible to host mini-Regionals in several areas? I know the crowd will be much larger, but it will be a greater incentive to draw people, especially when scattered, to a larger event than your local college (unless you live in a Metropolitan area). Renting a convention center may be ridiculous, especially if said mini-Rs will try to have maybe 64 or less people, but with a decent enough entry fee you could cover the cost and serve a hefty prize (may have to be somewhere around $10 or more).

And although such tournaments will really be catering to serious competitors, I think to get these events off the ground, you will have to advertise at local game stores and even on other Pokemon forums. Although the first one may not be the most exciting, if we can ignite the competitive soul within many casual players with an intense final match, these events will grow in not only number but also in quality. My friend (Rayku on smashboards) and I would be more than happy to host one here in the Atlanta area.

The only real problem I foresee is the lack of sleep clause, which could really throw a monkey wrench in our endeavor. Sadly, trying to enforce such clause with referees would be nearly impossible, especially in a double elimination format with 64 people. I guess more people will have to pack Lum/Chesto berries/Sleep Talk for these tournaments.

No, I don't exactly want smaller, more frequent tournies like smash, that was just a comparison. I honestly think that is sort of a problem for smash when it comes to attendance and tourney hype. I just sort of want something that's like more than once a year lol. Bimonthly would be cool I guess.

As for location my college is right in Philadelphia and I can get extraordinary venues there with special deals to help me with the price since I'm the president of the Smash club at my school. One of the venues for instance is almost the size of the one at the big Philly tournament this past Saturday. The location is not a problem, it's in fact better than Philly (King of Prussia technically) one recently with an even more central location and more public transportation options.

But yea, lack of sleep clause is something we have to think about. One step could be ban the move Dark Void (since Smeargle can use it). Other than that, there is nothing you can really do. It's pretty combatable though, it will just change things up. For instance the main Spore user Breloom isn't too fast, so outspeeding it is one way to get around that, and also with the new accuracy changes on Hypnosis, etc.

 

[DJ Ducki]

I've actually ran a couple Pokemon tournaments up at my local College for our Video Game club, the turnout, albeit kinda tiny for Tournament Standards (12 this year), it actually turned out rather well. Due to the size, we only charged 3$ a person, and the actual Tournament format was done this way:

Single Battle (due to overwhelming popularity)
Due to level differences between people, we held it on Pokemon Battle Revolution DS connect to apply the Lv50 All Rule.
Due to time constriction, it was PBR Rules (3v3 out of a team of 6)
Being on PBR, we were able to implement the Clauses (Sleep / Freeze / OHKO, etc)
Pairing were done based on streak (First Round is a random pairing, then Second Round paired winners vs winners, etc, better records fighting.)
Standard Tier Play (no Ubers)

I kinda borrowed the concept for the pairing from my local card shop who ran Yu-gi-oh tournaments in this fashion, and I got a massively positive feedback. I also had an idea from friends to do a couple other tournaments, including a Randomizer Tournament (long explaination) and an Ubers tournament. Probably the best I could see is find a format and medium that works really well, and base it around there. I personally used PBR for the Tournament due to the Clause additions and the Lv50 All rules to make sure everyone that attended and was interested could play on equal grounds.

 

[drcossack]

The only real problem I foresee is the lack of sleep clause, which could really throw a monkey wrench in our endeavor. Sadly, trying to enforce such clause with referees would be nearly impossible, especially in a double elimination format with 64 people. I guess more people will have to pack Lum/Chesto berries/Sleep Talk for these tournaments.

I agree enforcing clauses could be a problem. One of my DS matches was in Ubers format, a 4v4. The other guy's Darkrai put my Kyogre and Palkia to sleep.

Essentially, clause enforcement would come down to trusting the other player.

Having in-person tournaments is something that I wish the Pokemon community had started long ago. Unfortunately, I do not think it is really feasible. In any given area, the number of people who know how to play even remotely well is disappointingly low. Holding these tournaments would rely on drawing in random little kids who would be beaten easily by anyone with experience. I doubt those kids would want to come back, unless they had friends involved or something.

There is also the issue of raising Pokemon on the DS being an extraordinarily lengthy and tedious process. Honestly I would encourage players to hack their Pokemon and then give them a once-over myself to make sure they aren't exceeding the bounds of the game. An alternative would be to just do matches on shoddybattle, which would eliminate hacking and EV training altogether, and presumably bolster the online community. It would also be much easier to give bad players a chance since they would be playing with a good team. Some of the mysticism is lost without the battle animation, but, presuming enough computers could be found, it more than makes up for it with speed and ease of preparation.

That said, I know there are at least four Smogoners besides myself in the Sacramento area, and I know some 'random little kids' who play Pokemon on the DS quite extensively (no I'm not a pedophile I was a tutor). I also know the owner of a collectible games shop so I have a location. When I come back home for the summer I might give this a shot, though I wouldn't expect it to last =(.

I agree. Pokemon, even now, is viewed as a game for little kids (though it obviously isn't.) I do have some friends who play, though they don't focus on competitive play AFAIK.

I know there's been some Pokemon tournaments in my area - smashboards user TGPAdmin had one last year during a summer gamefest. I can IM him and ask him about doing one this year. If he does do another summer gamefest this year, he'll have Melee and Brawl as well, so the turnout should be good. He also does Smash monthlies, and I know he gets people from the Allentown/Philly area, as well as people from NY/NJ. I don't know how possible it is for him, but there's a chance he can include Pokemon in those monthlies as well.

 

[MagicMaster87]

If you do end up hosting anything, ChiboSempai, I'd definitely be interested in joining up. I don't think Philly is too far of a drive from where I live, plus this would give me a reason to finally visit an online friend of mine.

 

[Havak]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55611

I'd already suggested UK Tournaments. As you can see in that thread, it'd be possible for us to use a local gaming company to host a tournament. Thus, we can use Battle Revolution on big screens for a greater atmosphere and an auto level feature.

If you could find something like this in America, that'd be great.

 

[ANinyMouse]

Despite the fact that finding enough Wiis/TVs might be a problem, PBR is far and away the best method for local tournaments. Otherwise, the DS players will have to play on Wifi against each other (so venues without wireless internet are out), and the process of adding 12+ people to your friend code list is just tedious and invites confusion ("I don't see you, did you enter my code right, etc").

If you don't use DS Wifi OR PBR, the Person with the Lv.99 Jynx or whatever is going to kill the guy with with a perfectly raised team at or around 35-55. Level balance is the most important issue, first and foremost.

After you decide your method for keeping level balance (I'd advise Lv.100, since some EV spreads don't work correctly at Lv.50), the rest of the rules fall into place. PBR has you covered once again, but enforcing Sleep Clause on the basis of an honors system can invite wankery from the cheap and lame. Other than Sleep Clause, Species Clause, Self-KO Clause and Uber Clause, however, I don't feel like any other clauses are integral to running a good tournament - Item Clause is not popular among the top players; Freeze Clause is ridiculous and unnecessary.