Metagame Inheritance [OM of the Month - Murkrow Suspect @ Post #718]

i'll add suggestion about banning Haze. because even Prankster Murkrow is banned, it will still difficult to beat Unaware with Haze, the element why setting up is hard because even with Mold Breaker, your stats will reset back to 0. Power Trip / Stored Power that supposed to break unaware loses to Haze. The difference in standard play, Unaware mons used to have below average stats, but in here you can always bring bulky mons with unaware, which make it easy to use Haze
 
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I personally agree with those saying that even with the removal of Cresselia, stall is far too strong in the current metagame.

The problem all along has been that there isn't a single broken element to remove from the stall equation that will balance out the metagame. Prankster Haze may not be broken, but it adds to the brokenness and overcentralization of stall. I really hate the idea of unbanning anything to attempt to balance stall unless it is actually not broken. It goes against all Smogon tiering guidelines, and would honestly just centralize the metagame around that Pokemon instead, with people using it to beat stall and nothing else.

A playstyle can only be considered healthy in my opinion if there are multiple practical ways to beat it that don't rely on the opponent making poor decisions. I don't see that with stall right now. Between Unaware, Regenerator, Intimidate, Prankster, immunity abilities, etc. it has the tools to deal with basically everything the metagame can throw at it at once without deviating from the basic formula Pigeons outlined in his post.

Now I don't think anybody is really disagreeing that stall is an issue right now (besides Stall Please from the OM room, who loves the state of the meta for some reason :smogthink:). So with that out of the way the real question is: what can we do?

I personally think that the way forward is to ban 'non-broken' elements of stall which contribute to the impracticality of beating the entirety of stall. I have brought up banning Murkrow as a donor as a possible way forward as it would allow thing like Mold Breaker unaware Pokemon to at least attempt to break past Unaware Pokemon, and other set up sweepers can abuse typings combined with set up to beat common Unawares more effectively.

Another partial solution would be the addition of an ability clause, which Pigeons brought up to me as a way to stop Regenerator spam. It occurs to me that it would not only stop Regenerator spam but it would also stop people from running multiple Unaware Pokemon, giving set-up sweepers a greater chance to wear down or break past an Unaware Pokemon, especially if they carry attacks for Suicune / whatever other Unaware users become common.

I don't personally believe banning Unaware is the way to go. While it would effectively nerf stall in all likelihood, it would have a far more devastating effect on Balance. At the same time, we're already on sketchy ground tiering policy wise and I don't think not banning something because it will hurt a playstyle is supposed to be considered.

The only other practical solution I see is changing some of the rules to allow inheritance from banned Pokemon / Megas. This would give us some new wallbreakers and stallbreakers. I would personally prefer these to be the rules either way*, but how much they would affect stall I'm not sure.

I know for a lot of this post I'm echoing esteemed bird fanatic Pigeons' opinions. That's cool with me, not trying to take credit for stuff he said, just want to reinforce some stuff and add my own 2 cents.

*I don't see how inheriting from a mega or a banned Pokemon goes against any in-game mechanics. Inheriting isn't a mechanic inherent to the games, I can't legally run Shell Smash Shell Armor Drampa in standard. Why is borrowing a moveset from a mega any different? As for borrowing from ubers, I don't get why the banlists would ever be the same for donors and inheritors. They are broken in entirely different circumstances and while some might be both broken donors and broken inheritors that is just by chance.
 
I agree with Aku Mau Ngetroll that banning Haze from donation is the right way to go -- adding this restriction would allow stall to still be A Thing, while giving teams that really want to beat it the option to use certain Mold Breaker users, or more generic setup sweepers that happen to beat the more common Unaware users. With Haze -- Prankster or otherwise -- floating around, teams that want to beat stall are pretty reliably forced to do so at +0, which is pretty unfair IMHO.

That all said, here's a mon that -- on paper at least -- has a good stall matchup.

Ursaring (Bewear) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 8 HP / 248 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Close Combat
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance

So the obvious appeal here is disgustingly strong STABs that hit everything but Ghost-types (and Play Rough is for Mega Sableye) real hard even unboosted, as well as a built-in status immunity that gives it much more longevity vs. teams that like to click Toxic. Some calcs should illustrate this:

248+ Atk Guts Bewear Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
248+ Atk Guts Bewear Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 220-261 (55.4 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
248+ Atk Guts Bewear Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 279-328 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 248+ Atk Guts Bewear Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 313-369 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (okay you need to SD up to beat Intimidate Buzzwole but from there it can't do shit without a Fighting STAB)

Obviously this requires some pivot support to get in reliably, but it'll do work against balance too once you provide that. Wish is also handy, as it negates stall's attempts to wear it down with burn damage or Scalds.
 
As a council member from last gen (not anymore now tho), I’ll give my insights as well as solutions on what options possible to handle this situation, because we had similar situation last gen.

Last gen, Sableye -> Chansey has been a huge issue and thus, Sableye was banned as a donor. Thing is, there was never an issue with Murkrow users so there’s no people complaining. Now this gen, even if you ban Murkrow, pretty sure Sableye inheritors will be an issue, why? Chansey can stop almost any Special attacks and Prankster Will-o-wisp can easily replace Prankster Haze and even with +2 SpA, Chansey can easily sponge Special attacks and KO back with Metal Burst (one of the perks of Sableye donors).

There are 3 solutions to choose:
1. Ban Prankster. Personally my best solution. Both Sableye and Murkrow are the main offenders in here but what if both are banned? You still have Whimsicott with PRANKSTER SUBSEED or Toxic with Cotton Guard which I guarantee, will be CANCER to deal with. Other possibilities would be Illumise, with Prankster Sub, Toxic, Wish, U-turn, Aromatherapy, Encore, Defog, functioning as a pivot OR cleric. You see what I’m getting at? Prankster donors have way too much potential in their movesets. People would argue the collateral damage of using Tornadus, which can be countered by using Defiant.

2. Ban Chansey. This mon has too much overwhelming bulk and it’s been discussed as an option to ban last gen. Thing is, we decided to ban Sableye as a donor because we thought it was an issue in other mons as well. But thing is, now Chansey will still do work with other sets because it just has too much bulk.

3. Ban Haze. I personally don’t agree with this, because this a completely balanced move and can be taunted. Other elements makes this more powerful than it should be, not itself.

TLDR; ban prankster is my recommended solution to this, as it’s the primary cause that makes Stall overwhelming.
 
Ooh, this OM seems interesting...

I've been testing with a few pokemon and I think I've got a few ideas up my sleeve. Hope you enjoy reading these. Give me your thoughts and your opinions on these and I hope I can do well. (these sets are probably not viable at all but whatevs...)


Zeraora (Kecleon) @ Life Orb or Choice Band or Choice Specs or Assault Vest
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Punch
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch/Knock Off
- Power-Up Punch/Drain Punch

Heh, didn't expect Kecleon did'ja? Well, the more you know I guess. I did not know Kecleon had such a wide movepool, I mean... Damn son... Anyway, Zeraora with almost perfect coverage, and STAB with every move? Talk about powerful. Heck, you could even switch some moves for Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, Nasty Plot, one turn Recover, Hone Claws, Trick, Toxic, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, the possibilities are literally endless.


Zeraora (Dragonite) @ Life Orb
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed/Earthquake/Iron Head/Brick Break
- Aqua Jet/Fire Punch/Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch/Dragon Claw/Power-Up-Punch
- Dragon Dance

Sorry guys, I just really love the Zera. Anyway, with Multiscale you are almost guaranteed set up. With 1+ boosted Speed from Dragon Dance and Jolly with max speed investment you even outspeed most choice scarfers (which is goddarn deadly) And with 1+ Attack you deal massive damage to even the greatest of walls. (Other than Chansey or Blissey. But they still have to look out for Brick Break/Superpower) Then again, Zeraora suffers from 4 move syndrome (priority moves kill it,) but I think this is still pretty viable.

This is all I can think of for now. Kinda tired at the moment and my brain is still stuck up in school. Gonna continue when I have spare time. Bye...
 
I think a lot of people are overlooking Crawdaunt as a donor. I mean, access to DD, priority and Adaptability are pretty insane, especially for mons that can use some of it's more powerful moves in conjunction with Adaptability
 
Okay, so I was looking to play a few fun games with my friend and he wanted to make a Turtonator@Torkoal(Drought) but it wasn't validating. He asked me to double check it and everything seemed fine to me.. hence, my post here. Can anyone tell me what's going wrong?

Turtonator @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Solar Beam
- Draco Meteor
 
ok a whole slew of one liners i guess i’ll mass reply
ban extremespeed asap
the meta is quite stale already
hi, you offer no reasoning behind this claim nor does it make any sense given how incredibly bulky and stall based the tier is. calling a meta like this stale is quite hilarious honestly as it’s one of the most unique and versatile metagames so definitely keep trying new things there’s so much this meta has to offer!
Inheriting shed should be banned
Shouldn't it be already?
yes inheriting from shed is banned, it just is not mentioned in the OP for some reason, probably an overlook as it’s so blatantly broken that it’s a given that it’s banned
Okay, so I was looking to play a few fun games with my friend and he wanted to make a Turtonator@Torkoal(Drought) but it wasn't validating. He asked me to double check it and everything seemed fine to me.. hence, my post here. Can anyone tell me what's going wrong?

Turtonator @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Solar Beam
- Draco Meteor
When inheriting from pokemon you only can use their abilities and movesets, and Torkoal cannot learn Draco Meteor and therefore the set is illegal.

Just so this post isn’t a pseudo one liner as well, as far as stall goes I do wanna comment and say that either some form of ability clause would be ideal in my opinion, but a Haze ban may also suffice to further balance stall. Don’t really agree on a Prankster or Chansey ban, but banning Murkrow as a donor is something I’m not completely opposed to. I do think that Prankster Haze offers too much role compression and really limits setup sweepers even more in the tier. Stall is definitely still a huge problem with the meta (dedicated stall breakers and stall breaking methods such as trapping can definitely be potent against stall, but it requires a good amount of team support) and I’d argue that an ability clause would be the best way to go. So far though really enjoying the meta so far I’m glad it finally got omotm again!
 
ok a whole slew of one liners i guess i’ll mass reply

hi, you offer no reasoning behind this claim nor does it make any sense given how incredibly bulky and stall based the tier is. calling a meta like this stale is quite hilarious honestly as it’s one of the most unique and versatile metagames so definitely keep trying new things there’s so much this meta has to offer!


yes inheriting from shed is banned, it just is not mentioned in the OP for some reason, probably an overlook as it’s so blatantly broken that it’s a given that it’s banned

When inheriting from pokemon you only can use their abilities and movesets, and Torkoal cannot learn Draco Meteor and therefore the set is illegal.

Just so this post isn’t a pseudo one liner as well, as far as stall goes I do wanna comment and say that either some form of ability clause would be ideal in my opinion, but a Haze ban may also suffice to further balance stall. Don’t really agree on a Prankster or Chansey ban, but banning Murkrow as a donor is something I’m not completely opposed to. I do think that Prankster Haze offers too much role compression and really limits setup sweepers even more in the tier. Stall is definitely still a huge problem with the meta (dedicated stall breakers and stall breaking methods such as trapping can definitely be potent against stall, but it requires a good amount of team support) and I’d argue that an ability clause would be the best way to go. So far though really enjoying the meta so far I’m glad it finally got omotm again!
Honestly sitting here at work and had the revelation but I do appreciate the quick reply. Thanks!
 
I'm too lazy to read. But hwre's my question. Is it possible for smapert to have drizzle and I'll mega evolve him? Like all moves are based on Politoed but it said that it's an illegal move set. :(
 
I'm too lazy to read. But hwre's my question. Is it possible for smapert to have drizzle and I'll mega evolve him? Like all moves are based on Politoed but it said that it's an illegal move set. :(
Its possible for Swampert to have Drizzle before it Mega Evolves, did you forgot to replace Swift Swim for Drizzle or did you put something that Politoed can't learn?
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
Unfortunately the only Pokemon to have both Drizzle and Earthquake is Kyogre, which of course you can't inherit from. Honestly if you want a weather mega you're better off running Mega Garchomp inheriting from Tyranitar. If you want to use Swampert I'd suggest a defensive set inheriting from Drampa - you get Sap Sipper, reliable recovery and a huge movepool.

Although I honestly prefer Empoleon as an inheritor due to access to SR and Swords Dance
 
Just wanted to give my two cents on the whole stall issue. While I agree that stall is a centralizing force in the metagame, I believe that we're only an implementation or two away from at least giving more offensive builds the chance to break it. What I mostly wanted to say was DO NOT ban haze or unaware. As drampa's grandpa said, these are tools that more balanced teams absolutely need to have any hope of surviving in this meta. Otherwise it becomes a game of who can boost first (unless you're playing as stall, of course!). If haze is gone, bulky quiver dancers such as Bellossom/Magearna will absolutely walk all over anything without the bulk to survive a hit AND the physical punch to take them down.

That said, I believe that haze becomes an issue when paired with prankster. This type of failsafe panic button should be reserved for the BellyBurden Sunsteel Strikers of BH - needless to say, that type of threat doesn't exist in Inheritance. All prankster haze (with roost!) allows you to do is immediately wipe out any chance that a special attacker not named Keldeo can 1v1 your Chansey. I believe that is what makes stall the problem it is in the meta today, so BANNING MURKROW AS A DONOR should help level the playing field.

Come to think of it, if Murkrow/Chansey is gone, Sableye/Chansey will show up in greater numbers and be just as annoying. With metal burst and prankster wisp to deter physical attackers, plus priority recovery of course, maybe prankster itself really is the problem. I'll leave that up for discussion.

As for the other proposed solutions, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to an ability clause, but I think the impact on the metagame will be negligible. Unaware and regenerator are really the only double abilities I consistently see on opposing teams, save for the odd sheer force stacker. Even Pigeons' wonderful yet horrible stall sample only have one of each, and dual regenerators are generally more effective against other iterations of stall. Please don't unban any high-powered offensive threats to try and equalize the meta. The last thing we need is to return to the days of grassy surge Kartana or protean Hoopa-U running wild.

Finally, a fun mon for you all since you went through the trouble of reading my opinion (or not, whatever)

mega_pidgeot_by_spritespokemon-dbr99y8.gif

Whimsicott (Pidgeot) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Prankster/Infiltrator (if prankster gets the axe)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Grass Whistle
- U-turn/Moonblast
- Knock Off
- Hurricane

As contested as the mega slot is in this meta, I believe this mon does enough for its team to justify it. Whimsicott gives Pidgeot a sleep move plus hurricane, which is all the bird needs to be as annoying as possible. What separates Whimsicott from Noctowl as a donor, however, is knock off (and grass whistle bypassing subs, plus providing a 55% prankster prayer if something boosted is about to 6-0 you). Nothing that switches into Pidgeot enjoys having its leftovers, assault vest, or eviolite removed. Pair it with another strong special wallbreaker like a mega launcher or a sheer force user and watch those crippled Chanseys and Alolan Muks struggle to take the hits they once could. Once those items are gone, proceed to spam hurricane like any self-respecting Pidgeot user. Did I mention Pidgeot outspeeds the anything base 120 speed or below? It's tremendously useful to KO any sheer force inheritors that thought they were fast. Just watch out for any surprise scarfers, Aerodactyl, and Tapu Koko. Pack a switchin to those and you're good to go.
 
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Although I honestly prefer Empoleon as an inheritor due to access to SR and Swords Dance
I honestly didn't know Politoed got Earthquake that was my bad. Empoleon is interesting as you also get Defiant and STAB priority in Aqua Jet, if you want a more offensive rocker. Though I personally prefer to use Mold Breaker Landorus-t inheriting from Pinsir. Sr, SD, Earthquake, Stone Edge with either Rockium Z or Lum Berry, it can also be a pretty nice wall breaker.

On the subject of stall, I think banning inheriting Prankster would be the best bet personally. Others have already covered my thoughts on the matter and put it better than I could, but I think stall will survive without it - it will just no longer be as powerful.
 
Okay, so I was looking to play a few fun games with my friend and he wanted to make a Turtonator@Torkoal(Drought) but it wasn't validating. He asked me to double check it and everything seemed fine to me.. hence, my post here. Can anyone tell me what's going wrong?

Turtonator @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Solar Beam
- Draco Meteor
Yo Torkoal doesn't learn Draco Meteor. That's your problem my dude lol
 
I think that unbanning inheriting from Ubers and Megas is a unique, and in my opinion, the best way to allow more deviation in playstyle. Banning certain aspects of stall doesn't really make sense because the abilities and moveset are not inherently broken. An ability clause is a good idea, since it lowers the chances of tying games by spamming double Regenerator, but many stall teams are very successful without using two of the same ability (take, for instance, PigeonStall).

Here are some analyses of the donors in question:
Abomasnow-Mega: hail lol
Absol-Mega: Cool alternative for Sableye-Mega, since it gets Wish.
Aerodactyl-Mega: outclassed by Charizard-Mega-X
Aggron-Mega: not much reason to use this over Necromza-Dusk-Mane
Alakazam-Mega: outclassed by Kecleon/Deoxys/Nidoking
Altaria-Mega: Pixilate + Dragon Dance + Earthquake is epic.
Ampharos-Mega: Mold Breaker without stat boosting moves lol
Arceus: really nice movepool, but is basically in the same box as Mew, except having an actually useless ability and missing out on some key support moves like Knock Off.
Audino-Mega: outclassed by its non-mega
Banette-Mega: Jesus, will this be annoying with Pranksterbond. Then again, it doesn't have a very good movepool or reliable recovery.
Beedrill-Mega: outclassed by Lucario-Mega
Blastoise-Mega: Clawitzer, but with Rapid Spin. That's pretty cool.
Blaziken(-Mega): Without Speed Boost, is pretty forgettable.
Camerupt-Mega: outclassed by Nidoking, except for Eruption (which is pretty cool, actually)
Charizard-Mega-X: Dragon Dance Garchomp will hurt.
Charizard-Mega-Y: outclassed by Torkoal
Darkrai: Bad Dreams isn't really that useful when it doesn't have good accuracy sleep moves, and Mega Pidgeot doesn't get any viable STAB to be useful.
Deoxys: could very well be broken with Alakazam-Mega spamming Psycho Boost and switching in on Regenerators, but is neutralized by Muk-Alola, for the most part; might need a look into it.
Dialga: good offensive movepool, but aside from Draco Meteor it's a Mew with no recovery.
Diancie-Mega: pretty bad movepool, and there isn't really another mon that can use its specific movepool reliably.
Gallade-Mega: outclassed by Lucario-Mega
Garchomp-Mega: sand force lol
Gardevoir-Mega: outclassed by Altaria-Mega
Genesect: Download sounds pretty promising for mixed sets, but is essentially Dialga with U-Turn and Extreme Speed
Gengar-Mega: banned lol
Giratina: No reason to use this over Mew, unless you like a spicy Pressure.
Giratina-Origin: Feels like a worse Vibrava for defensive sets, and a worse Kecleon for offensive sets.
Glalie-Mega: I think it's outclassed by Aurorus, though it has Spikes and Taunt.
Groudon: outclassed by Groudon-Primal
Groudon-Primal: sounds pretty broken on Victini/Chandelure/Volcarona who can just spam Eruption for days. Not sure if it's broken though.
Ho-Oh: Sacred Fire is cool, but outclassed as a Regenerator pivot donor since it doesn't have Knock Off, U-Turn, or much coverage.
Gyarados-Mega: Dragon Dance + Mold Breaker can potentially threaten stall if inheritors Taunt opposing Hazers.
Heracross-Mega: Sounds super annoying with King's Rock, could see use on Aerodactyl.
Houndoom-Mega: Niche use on Sun teams, maybe?
Kangaskhan-Mega: ban pls
Kyogre: ouclassed by Kyogre-Primal
Kyogre-Primal: seems pretty good with Groudon-Primal mons running around. It also sounds arguably more broken since Keldeo and other Water-types aren't weak to Stealth Rock. May need a ban.
Kyurem-White: Turboblaze without stat boosting lol
Landorus: outclassed by Nidoking
Lati@s-Mega: literally same as non-mega lol
Lopunny-Mega: ironically, Lopunny-Mega seems like the best user of its set.
Lucario-Mega: a big ouch to stall and offense. STAB Extreme Speeds and Close Combats are gonna hurt.
Lugia: specially-oriented Dragonite, not much to see here
Lunala: pretty cool against stall due to Moongeist Beam and Shadow Shield.
Manectric-Mega: Intimidate is useful, but otherwise outclassed by special donors.
Marshadow: While its movepool is certainly nice, the main problem is that there isn't a very good inheritor to use it. Marowak-Alola seems decent but it's also really slow.
Mawile-Mega: banned lol
Medicham-Mega: banned lol
Metagross-Mega: Tough Claws sounds really nice, but it's kind of outclassed by Charizard-Mega-X.
Mewtwo: Psystrike, sure, but also loses out on Nasty Plot and Rock Polish from Mew.
Mewtwo-Mega-X/Y: very forgettable abilities
Naganadel: has a very specific movepool that I'm unsure which mon would use it. Maybe Hydreigon?
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: worse Lunala, for the most part, unless you like Stealth Rock for some reason.
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: Sounds really, really good on Excadrill. Too bad Suicune resists Sunsteel Strike, though.
Necrozma-Ultra: doesn't sound too bad on Latios, though stuff like Kecleon compete with it.
Palkia: basically Dialga but with a slightly better Dragon move
Pheromosa: Quiver Dance + Beast Boost sounds really heat, though a lack of coverage hurts it. Keldeo, maybe?
Pidgeot-Mega: I'm pretty sure No Guard Hurricane isn't good enough to justify using it over other donors.
Pinsir-Mega: outclassed by Salamence-Mega
Rayquaza: Ouch. Landorus-Therian, Charizard-Mega-X, and Lopunny-Mega can all benefit from its expansive physical movepool.
Rayquaza-Mega: see Rayquaza but even better
Reshiram: Turboblaze without stat boosters lol
Sableye-Mega: Much, much better than Xatu, being able to burn and Knock Off and Fake Out.
Salamence-Mega: Aerilate is epic, not much else to say.
Sceptile-Mega: Doesn't have the special movepool to take advantage of Lightning Rod.
Scizor-Mega: literally same as Scizor lol
Sharpedo-Mega: Lack of Swords Dance neuters it a lot.
Shaymin-Sky: Seed Flare is really good, but not much coverage.
Slowbro-Mega: outclassed by Slowbro
Solgaleo: outclassed by Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Steelix-Mega: outclassed by Garchomp-Mega
Swampert-Mega: outclassed by Poliwrath
Tyranitar-Mega: literally same as Tyranitar lol
Venusaur-Mega: outclassed by Miltank
Xerneas: ban Geomancy, and we have a great option for things like Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko.
Yveltal: Dark Aura Knock Off + Sucker Punch = ouch. Great for hitting stall for big damage.
Zekrom: Hone Claws is nice with Bolt Strike. Maybe will see use on Zeraora?
Zygarde-Complete: Zygarde with an actually useless ability, now that Fairy Aura and Dark Aura are allowed
 
ok a whole slew of one liners i guess i’ll mass reply

hi, you offer no reasoning behind this claim nor does it make any sense given how incredibly bulky and stall based the tier is. calling a meta like this stale is quite hilarious honestly as it’s one of the most unique and versatile metagames so definitely keep trying new things there’s so much this meta has to offer!


yes inheriting from shed is banned, it just is not mentioned in the OP for some reason, probably an overlook as it’s so blatantly broken that it’s a given that it’s banned

When inheriting from pokemon you only can use their abilities and movesets, and Torkoal cannot learn Draco Meteor and therefore the set is illegal.

Just so this post isn’t a pseudo one liner as well, as far as stall goes I do wanna comment and say that either some form of ability clause would be ideal in my opinion, but a Haze ban may also suffice to further balance stall. Don’t really agree on a Prankster or Chansey ban, but banning Murkrow as a donor is something I’m not completely opposed to. I do think that Prankster Haze offers too much role compression and really limits setup sweepers even more in the tier. Stall is definitely still a huge problem with the meta (dedicated stall breakers and stall breaking methods such as trapping can definitely be potent against stall, but it requires a good amount of team support) and I’d argue that an ability clause would be the best way to go. So far though really enjoying the meta so far I’m glad it finally got omotm again!
I realized that I was in anything goes inheritance tournament in Om Mash ups
 
A few more sets that I thought of, so please critique wherever you can...

--->

Or...
--->


Both of these pokemon have a lot of potential. Not only are they fast, but they have the potential to hit hard. Unfortunately, those abilities that they have have either very specific niches or are not very helpful to the pokemon in anyway in corrolation to it's stats, and they suffer from a limited movepool. Nidoking not only has a wide movepool, but has access to a very powerful ability in Sheer Force. Couple this with Life Orb and they are a definitely going to be a force to be reckoned with...

Salazzle (Nidoking) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Shadow Ball

Accelgor (Nidoking) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Shadow Ball

--->


Archeops is probably one of the best (none-banned) pokemon that benefited greatly, even from the very existence of the metagame itself. It's abysmal ability is now replaced with the much more stronger, Tough Claws which allows it's already monstrous base 140 Atk to hit with even harder force. Lycanroc's movepool is also very compatible with Archeops since they both share the Rock type and Lycanroc adds a lot of coverage with Drill Run, priority with Accelerock, Brick Break, Fire Fang, Iron Head, and more (although it does lose STAB flying types.). These sets are just a few of the many possible sets.

Archeops (Lycanroc-Dusk) @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Return
- Crunch
- Stone Edge

Archeops (Lycanroc-Dusk) @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Stone Edge

--->


Guys, Dragonite is such an amazing donor. Great ability and a wide movepool that has many different uses like Special Sweeper, Physical Sweeper, Recovery, Haze, Cleric, Support, it's almost got it all. Archeops has now Multiscale which is always amazing on the first turn, has two types of priority, Set-Up (mostly ineffective due to the overcentralization of stall), wide coverage, Roost, both Flying type and Rock type STAB, and even more options, This is just the Physical and Special set but it can run way more, and way more are possible.

Archeops (Dragonite) @ Life Orb
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Aerial Ace
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge

Archeops (Dragonite) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Draco Meteor

So, thoughts?
 
A few more sets that I thought of, so please critique wherever you can...

--->

Or...
--->


Both of these pokemon have a lot of potential. Not only are they fast, but they have the potential to hit hard. Unfortunately, those abilities that they have have either very specific niches or are not very helpful to the pokemon in anyway in corrolation to it's stats, and they suffer from a limited movepool. Nidoking not only has a wide movepool, but has access to a very powerful ability in Sheer Force. Couple this with Life Orb and they are a definitely going to be a force to be reckoned with...

Salazzle (Nidoking) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Shadow Ball

Accelgor (Nidoking) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Shadow Ball

--->


Archeops is probably one of the best (none-banned) pokemon that benefited greatly, even from the very existence of the metagame itself. It's abysmal ability is now replaced with the much more stronger, Tough Claws which allows it's already monstrous base 140 Atk to hit with even harder force. Lycanroc's movepool is also very compatible with Archeops since they both share the Rock type and Lycanroc adds a lot of coverage with Drill Run, priority with Accelerock, Brick Break, Fire Fang, Iron Head, and more (although it does lose STAB flying types.). These sets are just a few of the many possible sets.

Archeops (Lycanroc-Dusk) @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Return
- Crunch
- Stone Edge

Archeops (Lycanroc-Dusk) @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Stone Edge

--->


Guys, Dragonite is such an amazing donor. Great ability and a wide movepool that has many different uses like Special Sweeper, Physical Sweeper, Recovery, Haze, Cleric, Support, it's almost got it all. Archeops has now Multiscale which is always amazing on the first turn, has two types of priority, Set-Up (mostly ineffective due to the overcentralization of stall), wide coverage, Roost, both Flying type and Rock type STAB, and even more options, This is just the Physical and Special set but it can run way more, and way more are possible.

Archeops (Dragonite) @ Life Orb
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Aerial Ace
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge

Archeops (Dragonite) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Draco Meteor

So, thoughts?
For Salazzle, run Fire Blast, Sludge Wave, Thunderbolt and your choice of either Earth Power, Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes. Sludge Wave is a great STAB to fall back on when you don't want to risk a Fire Blast miss. For Accelgor, you're better off running a Protean set inheriting from Kecleon. That blistering speed backed up with STAB on everything makes it a strong anti offense mon. Archeops is a great mon in this meta, however Lycanroc and Dragonite aren't the best donors for it. IMO you're better off inheriting from Aggron - slap on a Choice Band, click Head smash and watch stuff die. You could also run a Swords Dance set inheriting from Toucannon - Swords Dance, Rock Blast, Brave Bird, Bullet Seed with a Flyinium Z - makes a nice wallbreaker / late game cleaner. Some people also run Protean sets, but I've had better results with Rock Head and Skill Link. Special Archeops is just...bad. Especially with no STABs whatsoever. Azelf is better at that role.
 
For Salazzle, run Fire Blast, Sludge Wave, Thunderbolt and your choice of either Earth Power, Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes. Sludge Wave is a great STAB to fall back on when you don't want to risk a Fire Blast miss. For Accelgor, you're better off running a Protean set inheriting from Kecleon. That blistering speed backed up with STAB on everything makes it a strong anti offense mon. Archeops is a great mon in this meta, however Lycanroc and Dragonite aren't the best donors for it. IMO you're better off inheriting from Aggron - slap on a Choice Band, click Head smash and watch stuff die. You could also run a Swords Dance set inheriting from Toucannon - Swords Dance, Rock Blast, Brave Bird, Bullet Seed with a Flyinium Z - makes a nice wallbreaker / late game cleaner. Some people also run Protean sets, but I've had better results with Rock Head and Skill Link. Special Archeops is just...bad. Especially with no STABs whatsoever. Azelf is better at that role.
Thanks for the suggestions.
 
I'm having trouble with Showdown. I'm pretty sure this set should be legal but it disagrees with me. Anyone who can tell me what's going on let me know.

Snorlax @ Jaboca Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed
- Egg Bomb
 
I'm having trouble with Showdown. I'm pretty sure this set should be legal but it disagrees with me. Anyone who can tell me what's going on let me know.

Snorlax @ Jaboca Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed
- Egg Bomb
If you can't figure out why a set isn't working in Inheritance, try validating the same set on the mon you're inheriting from in the OU validator (see picture below). In this case, Jaboca Berry is the problem.
1544054988931.png
 

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