Is it time for the system to change?

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It was yesterday when I was about to fall asleep when I came up with this idea, so I hope it doesn't come across as too far-fetched or irreverent.

Do you remember playing Pokemon Stadium 2? I do. Most of all, I remember my sense of wonder when I used the "Rental" system, which allowed me to use basically ANY pokemon as I saw fit. I remembered my feeling of freedom, utter freedom to choose anything I wanted - and the sheer diversity that resulted from this system. I remember my joy at finding the monster that was Ampharos - amazing, it had ALL 3 elemental punches!

And now I ask myself when the last time I had used Ampharos was.

I have always believed in both a diverse and fair metagame, which, though not necessarily exclusive, results in numerous balancing problems, most of which have been partially resolved by the system we currently use - the tiering of Pokemon based on their competitive viability. Though this undoubtedly balances the metagame, it severely limits the potential of Pokemon - a game that should, in theory, pertain near-infinite combinations of teams, movesets, POKEMON - it should not be a game of Top Trump, see who has the better counter and ANTI-METAGAME composition, but a game of tactical finesse, as we use our favorites to our advantage, in the way we want. Sure, perhaps we already have a diverse OU environment, but I don't want just 50 or so Pokemon to get the spotlight while the rest rot and whither away. When was the last time YOU had the team of *your* individual liking? That mono-poison team you always dreamt about as a kid? Where is it? Each time I see someone utilize a non-standard team on Shoddy, I will always smile to myself, and commend the user on his or her courage. And each time another one of my favorites is delegated into the dreaded NU - a part of me would cringe at this indignation. Peoples, what are we PLAYING? Pokemon? Or THE TOP 50 Pokemon?

So I wonder - I wondered if there was a way to create a balanced, fair metagame where each and every pokemon have the chance to participate. This is my proposed solution. Instead of simply tiering each PKMN with a ranking on usability and game viability, each and every pokemon should be given a quantitative ranking that represents their overall strength - I believe 1 to 10 should suffice - in fact, this number should not differ too greatly from the tiering system we use right now, save for the quantitative differences we can allocate for top-tier and bottom-tier OU, or "terribad" NU (luvdisk) and "eccentric" NU (think octillery). One then combines the ratings from all 6 PKMN, resulting in your "overall team ranking". Your team can then compete with like-strengthed teams, resulting in balanced matchups. Perhaps around 3 differing tiers can be used, a standard one much like the OU of today, but a tad weaker (to account for the mass of UU and NU that are, well, never used), and two corresponding tiers representing Uber and UU.

An example:
I choose to make my dream team of say, mass priority users.
I pick the following PKMN, each with their (made up) ranks.

Scizor (8)
Lucario (7)
Hitmonchan (4)
Infernape (6)
Weavile (6)
to balance (and for the lols) Luvdisc (1)

I have a OTR of 32 (mean 5.33) I am able to play against anyone else with a similar (+-x) OTR.

Advantages of this system would be the re-introduction of both overtly strong and weak PKMN into the "Standard" metagame - teams will no longer be 6 powerhouses or 6 spindas - and interesting combinations of both "weak" and "strong" can result - should I have a team of 6 standard, run-of-the-mill PKMN, or one with polar opposites from both extremes? Obviously, the diversity of teams will also go shooting through the roof, and people will be able to compensate for overtly strong or weak PKMN by balancing their teams. This also eliminates the problem that arises when people have 5 UU and a single OU - and are hence delegated to OU to be slaughtered. Not really an advantage but more of a change, would be the anti-power creep resulting from having "weaker" teams. This might possibly slow down the pace of the metagame, and lead to less all-out offensive teams. Last advantage - people can finally use what they personally like.

(Some possible counterarguments and my counter-replies) -

*We choose the pokemon we like, not the ones we'll win with, but what if we like them BECAUSE we win with them?*
Nothing to say against that. Still, for those of us that actually think of PKMN OUTSIDE of "shoddybattle", (I daresay most of us), we have A LOT more to think about outside of TTar, Bliss, and Specsmence. (ack, repeating words, hate that). But if they DO coincide, power to you. Gengar <3

*Pokemon are not isolated - the way the team combines and operates together is as important as the individual strengths of the PKMN themselves.*
This is true, and one of the larger flaws of this system. I suggest creating modifiers for the scores, e.g. weighted scores - 6 average PKMN combined might weigh more than 4 bad 2 uber. Another problem would be when players place all their eggs in one basket - for instance, entering UU with 5 ludiscs and an Arceus (which proceeds to 6-0 sweep the enemy team). To counter this, limitations may be implemented e.g. mean discrepancies between individual PKMN may not exceed 7.

*What does this have to do with Gen-V?*
Everything. If we wish to implement a new system, we might as well as do it before everything has settled down, and people are more open to change.

*Over-diversity will create a environment with too much unpredictability.*
Which means that games will be broken as one cannot have every possible counter and solution? This is a good thing, as it encourages more diverse tactics and strategies, instead of the tried and true YES DRAGON DANCE TWICE I WIN YOU LOSE. I mean, think about it. Did gamefreak make all the other PKMN just for fun?

*The proposed method is too impractical, code-wise and workload-wise.*
Well, I never said it was going to be easy, but that's what this community is for, isn't it? ;)

*The old system was how we did it, how my father did it, and how my grandfather did it too! No way in hell am I going to change!*
When new ideas are implemented, people are always at first against them. This is due to our inherent resistance to change. But please try to overcome this initial resistance, and instead seriously consider my proposal.

Any and all proposed numbers are easily changeable. However, I do not think having more PKMN rankings is a good idea, as it makes it more ambiguous, and are hard to calculate so precisely.

Please reply with suggestions, criticism, and of course, any relevant comments. And thank you for reading this ridiculously long post! ^^;
 
Such a radical change is probably going to need empirical evidence that it works before anyone is going to jump into it.

I mean, it SHOULD, in theory, lead to a really nice metagame if done right, but it'd require a HORRIBLE amount of time and effort to balance the numbers out.

Also, you'd HAVE to have some system to find the numbers objectively, because it's going to be awfully subject to bias if the system requires subjectivity.
 
you amateurs really need to learn how to accomplish your goals. By this I don't mean pokemon.
 
You claim that you want to allow pokemon to live to their fullest potential.
The top 50 pokemon in OU have a greater potential than everything else.
The reason a pokemon is in NU is because it has limited potential when compared to other pokemon.

Where a pokemon is placed is a reflection of how well it does in that tier. A tier of favorites is quite unbalanced. I don't care if you say that you match up trainers with others of a similiar ranking/number, since there would be no tier for any pokemon to be ranked in.

If people want to win, they would still use the top pokemon or a selection of pokemon that attains the most victory in a certain level of power.
 
T.T Why is Infernape on the same level as Weavile...

No. Partially because I don't want to change the system, because people generally dislike change.

Partially because there are tiers already. This is basically your idea, but less complicated. A team with overall weaker pokemon is in a lower tier.

So yeah.
 
We put a lot of work into the tier system with balancing and calculations but it does lack the unpredictability and diversity that the game should be enjoyed in, surely a bit more work to make the game much better is worth it! A great idea that I hope will come about. Viva la revolucion
 
Any system as subjective as rating Pokemon between 1 and 10 has failure written all over it. Also playing with your favourites is irrelevant to competitive play, if one of your favourite Pokemon isn't competitively viable, tough shit. The whole "mixed tier" thing is stupid, if you want to use Pokemon that aren't viable in OU, go play UU/NU; that's what they're for.
 
Any system as subjective as rating Pokemon between 1 and 10 has failure written all over it. Also playing with your favourites is irrelevant to competitive play, if one of your favourite Pokemon isn't competitively viable, tough shit. The whole "mixed tier" thing is stupid, if you want to use Pokemon that aren't viable in OU, go play UU/NU; that's what they're for.
well actually we can use what ever we want in OU (thats not Uber of corse) I think just useing OU pokemon is stupid. tiering as a whole is stupi, but I think the numbers could work.
 
you amateurs really need to learn how to accomplish your goals. By this I don't mean pokemon.
If you could kindly illustrate, I would be glad to listen.

You claim that you want to allow pokemon to live to their fullest potential.
The top 50 pokemon in OU have a greater potential than everything else.
The reason a pokemon is in NU is because it has limited potential when compared to other pokemon.

Where a pokemon is placed is a reflection of how well it does in that tier. A tier of favorites is quite unbalanced. I don't care if you say that you match up trainers with others of a similiar ranking/number, since there would be no tier for any pokemon to be ranked in.

If people want to win, they would still use the top pokemon or a selection of pokemon that attains the most victory in a certain level of power.
I do not believe I said anything about bringing out the best in each Pokemon, but bringing out the potential of the System - the games. Just because some are better than others means we should not create a system that can allow the "superior" PKMN to stand alongside the "inferior" ones. Also, I think you are misunderstanding my suggestion. I am not ranking them based on popularity, but on strength, a.k.a. the current system with more variety.

T.T Why is Infernape on the same level as Weavile...

No. Partially because I don't want to change the system, because people generally dislike change.

Partially because there are tiers already. This is basically your idea, but less complicated. A team with overall weaker pokemon is in a lower tier.

So yeah.
The example I provided was very rudimentary - I apologize - but I'm sure the message comes through. If the older system was my idea, then show me - go challenge the standard metagame with non-OU, make it to the top, and then I'll be happy. Yes, change is HARD, and work is HARDER, but we can try, can't we?

Thanks for all the feedback! I know its just a pipe dream so far, but even dreams can turn into ideas, and ideas have the power to change - whether you like it or not. ;)
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
this is actually an awesome idea.

I believe we are too accustomed to the tier system on the other hand, to give it up entirely

I would love to see this game mode on the ladder along with little cup, ou, uu, uber, and nu.

where people who enjoy standards and ous but dont want to have to face the same top few again, and again and again.

an example would be using a full uu team with salamence.
 
it's obvious smogon members will absolutely hate this sort of idea and for a good reason.
however, i do find this idea quite interesting and it may prove to be fun even.
i've seen a japanese tournament use a point system as well where a player is given certain amount of points to fill out their teams with (as each tier has its own number) much like you proposition.

however, smogon won't like this lol.
 

Azure Demon

Guest
Yeah I'm
Sorry, but this idea isn't the greatest in my opinion if you want a diverse metagame where you can use whatever you want play ubers. A lot of people inside and outside of smogon enjoy the setup we have already.

The two dragon dance I win comment refers to a process know as sweeping and no matter how you try and change the metagame it will happen

Now onto diversity, ou has enough diversity as is, you can use any pokemon in the ou, bl, uu, and nu tiers, not to mention in generation 5 nfes will be excellent walls thanks to the pre-evoloution stone so that makes it more diverse. But if that is not enough diversity for you like I said play ubers and use whatever you like

Now, while creative your ranking system will lessen the ammount of diversity in competition. Your system locking people into a ranking group that you can't travel out of unless you change your team. For example some people like challenging ou teams with their uu teams they find the idea of proving that pokemon who aren't used as much as others deserve a shot to, they love being the underdog, and the love the challenge. Your change would turn this into next to impossible because people will be packing ubers left and right meaning some pokemon just won't be viable in play period The tiers aren't based on power but based upon usage that is why rhyperior, alakazam, and heracross are uu

This is only being supported because there are people who can't figure out good ways to work their favorites into the ou metagame without it getting rocked or sounding to gimmicky.
 
it's obvious smogon members will absolutely hate this sort of idea and for a good reason.
however, i do find this idea quite interesting and it may prove to be fun even.
i've seen a japanese tournament use a point system as well where a player is given certain amount of points to fill out their teams with (as each tier has its own number) much like you proposition.

however, smogon won't like this lol.
screw smogon we have point system!

joking aside lets break away from smogon and make this point system work and show them :D
 
I'd like this idea if there were any way to properly rank the Pokemon. It promotes using Pokmeon that work just fine but are usually outclassed. Another problem I see is that someone could just use Arceus and 5 Magikarp and easily sweep an opponent's team that has a more balanced team.

If we could figure out a way to give the Pokemon a number based on their Base Stat Rating, type, Ability, and Movepool, I think this could potentially work. You could get someone to do a tournament based on this if you can figure out a good way to rank the Pokemon.
 
This is why I don't play on a simulator, to be honest. I find wifi games to be more casual, and it seems there is an "anti whore" mindset that pervades much of the wifi player ship. I find myself with a foot in each camp. I want to win with my favorites, so typically I'll use a lower teir pokemon in a place where a higher one would fit; Quagsire subs in for swampert, Charizard for Heatran.

I agree with you in theory, but the point is that ALL competitive games with different characters suffer from this. Certain combinations emerge as most viable, and therefore, most used by players who want to win. So where does it leave you?

Well, theres a saying floating around here.

"Smogon isn't 'attacking your creativity'. They don't send out squads of elite ninjas and force you to use Scizor."

so the point is if you want to use Ampheros, then go ahead and fucking use him. (He sucks though. Use Luxray!) If you want to use Lower Tier pokemon, like Ambipom or Charizard or Alakazam, then use them. Remember, tentacruel and Roserade used to be UU, but then people found their niche.

Most of all, quit your belly achin'
 
well actually we can use what ever we want in OU (thats not Uber of corse) I think just useing OU pokemon is stupid. tiering as a whole is stupi, but I think the numbers could work.
How is using OU Pokemon in the OU tier stupid? If you dislike tiers, why are you on a competitive website?
 
The number system is way too subjective to work, and it's also a bit convoluted. If you want to use lower tier pokemon, then play in the lower tier, or find a way to make them work. Personally, I use a Gallade as a lead as it works for what I want to do. If a pokemon actually has good potential, and you think it can help you out, then don't be afraid of what letter comes before the "U" when playing standard. To me, this system just seems like some way to stick a crappy pokemon that people think looks cool, like Charizard, into regular battle. If this is your goal, then you're not playing competitively.
 
...........or just run a few tournaments using this style and see how it runs. Doubt it will overtake the current system but I'm sure you'll get some die hard fans accumulated eventually if executed well enough.
 
Guys these are a couple of trolls, as indicated by griffen78s fast involvement in 3 now deleted threads. Looks like they got better at their craft.

Can you HONESTLY expect to harbor productive talk about competition when sentiment is so exceptionally rampant a theme for picking pokemon?
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
I'd like this idea if there were any way to properly rank the Pokemon. It promotes using Pokmeon that work just fine but are usually outclassed. Another problem I see is that someone could just use Arceus and 5 Magikarp and easily sweep an opponent's team that has a more balanced team.
I suppose, but in reality if arceus gets toxic, or leech seed, or there is priority the game is over.

Arceus can be only one type, its going to have a weakness
 
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