It's gonna be hot (Heatran Discussion)

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#1


When speaking about Heatran in ubers, what comes to people's mind is that Dialga overshadows it in every offensive regard, which is true.
If you opt for a powerful Life Orb sweeper chose Dialga, because Hetran has almost no means to be an effective sweeper in ubers. while Dilaga has access to Dragon Stab moves Thunder and Fire Blast, Heatran can't compete with it only having Stab Fire and Explosion at its disposal.
Therefore Ubertran must fill rather defensive niches which haven't been explored yet.
I hope I can give you some ideas of teammates and play style that would appreciate Ubertran, enjoy.

As I have said before, offensive Heatran is rather a poor option compared to Dialga, and this applies to the Scarfer too. Heatran, however, can run a Choice Scarf as well, why I will mention this set before doing the main analysis of defensive Ubertran.

@Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash fire
Evs: 4HP/252 Satk/252Spd
Hasty Nature(+Spd, -Def)
-Fire Blast
-Dragon Pulse
-Hp Rock
-Explosion


This set differs slightly from CS-Dialga, while latter is a solid option to check SD-Quaza and Lati@s, as well as Darkrai and Skymin, Hetran can fit in teams that are weak to Ho-oh and need a fail-safe against SD-Ray, CM-Mewtwo, Darkrai and Lati@s. It has access to Explosion which is great against those, but also its downfall, since it must Explode quite often to take them out, while CS Dialga has better over all stats and means to kill these threats with its Stab moves. However, this Heatran can fit in lots of teams and works well, just don't exspect it to be a good check against dragons.
Ubertran
The real reason making Heatran an intriguing option in ubers is its ability to spam toxic, tank the most common offensive move in ubers(dragon) and keep steels, immune to toxic, off the field.
To prove its effectivity I have made following calculations: First off we assume the uber tier mainly consists of pokemon with a significant usage(that means 5%+). Second off we extract those pokemon who can't be touched by toxic(rest, safeguard, natural cure) which happens by percentage too(for example 30% of all Kyogres have the move rest). Then we add Forrtress and Scizor to the list of pokemons that are touched by Heatran due to their 4*weakness to its main Stab.
The result is quite amazing: Toxic+Fire Move provides you with a 90% effectivity in the current Uber metagame. Among the 10%, 80% is contributed by Blissey and BU-Dialga.
Finding a way to effectively deal with these two will bring you great success. The first set I will introduce you to, has found a way to deal with Bu-Dialga while still packing enormous bulk.

@Life Orb
Ability:Flash Fire
Evs: 252HP/252SDef/4SAtk
Calm Nature(+SDef, -Atk)
-Fire Blast
-Toxic
-Rest
-Sleep Talk


Life Orb allows Heatran to ohko standard Taunt+CM Mewtwo and to 2hko BU-Dialga in the sun. +1 Outrage from Bu-won't even 3hko you, while you can comfortabily 2hko it back and effectively eleminate a toxic taker.
CS-Dialga will possibly suffer a ko in the sun, Fire Blast will do 92.38% - 109.09% to it. So only Blissey and resttalk Kyogre left to deal with.
Note that this Heatran CANNOT wall any Ho-oh that has max attack and LO, since BB will 3hko then. This set is very effective when paired up with a Groudon(bulky is appreciated), since it will be able to wall any Lati@s without Refresh/Safeguard(don't worry these two moves aren't even listed in the usage list). Surf won't 3hko it, so you can toxic them and rest until they die. Mixed Dialga will have a tough time against this Heatran, unless it has the very rare Earthpower or Brick Break.


Sample Team:
Groudon @ Chesto
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP/112Def/16Spe/96SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Stone Edge
---
Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP/8 Atk/252 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Explosion
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Payback
---
Heatran (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP/4 SAtk/252 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Toxic
- Fire Blast
- Rest
- Sleeptalk
---
Giratina-o @ Platinum Orb
Ability: Levitate
Evs:252 Def/196 Spd/60 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Stone Edge
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Toxic
---
Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
Evs:4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spacial Rend
- Surf
- Thunder
- Fire Blast
---
Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Evs:4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Aura Sphere
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Taunt
---
Groudon brings the sun, which is essential for Heatran, while Palkia can tank Kyogre's water attacks. Mewtwo is a nice pokemon to finish off Palkia, Latia@s and Kyogre when they have been weakened by Toxic. It can taunt the bulky resttalk Kyogre when it is asleep(which is likely when it has been poisoned) and get one more CM without being hurt by Surf. Forretress is the best way to deal with Bliss, but you could use a Skarmory too, since Heatran outstalls Bliss and will cause many switches. Skarmory is a good partner because it can wall EQ-Quaza, while Heatran can take on Overheat-Quaza. Note that this spread won't protect you from SD-Quaza as a +2 adamant Outrage has a chance to ohko it. The fact that it has to use Outrage to beat you down before dieing of toxic and lo-Fire Blast is quite amusing though.(+6 espeed only 2hkoes it).
But Heatran isn't restricted to be a special wall, it can run some utility sets too. May I introduce you to an old friend from Ou:
here comes Shuca-Tran

@Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Evs: 252HP/168Def/84SDef
Relaxed Nature(+Def,-Spd)
-Stealth Rock
-Fire Blast
-Toxic/Explosion
-Explosion/Hp Rock
This Heatran will never be koed by Eq-Hooh nor SD-Quaza(even adamant can't) so that you can blow up in their faces and see the surprise.
It might not work as a lead in ubers, but has great utility in teams that have a sweeping Groudon and thus need Stealth Rock as well as some protection against Hooh, Heatran can come in on Sacred Fire and use either Hp rock(does about 60% max.) or blow up on it. It can beat Sub Roost Ho-oh by playing the hp rock-toxic game, and set up Sr for you. A rock Polish groudon would be the best partner for this Heatran asit can blow up on things like Bulky Resttalk Kyogre or Latias, who can be very annyoing to Groudon.


Counters:
Of course there are some Pokemon Heatran does not like to face:
Giratina with resttalk is the worst nightmare for any Heatran user, there is just nothing you could do about this, it drains your pps and laughs at your assaults. But there is hope, Giratina is very rare nowadays, and the new mixed Giratina-o is toxic stalled by Heatran and not the other way round.
Blissey can be annoying as it can try to drain toxic's PPs, but spikes will make it less annoying.
Opposing Heatrans can be VERY annoying, but when did you see one for the last time in Ubers?
Refresh Lati@s can fool you, so watch out for these. Safeguard must avoid to switch in Toxic, and is quite obvious as it will use it before it sets up on you. Safeguard Lugia can annoy you, but is not able to do anything back.
Entry hazards are your best bet against most of the mentioned counters.


Team options:
-Groudon is a must have for every Heatran user, it will help it take on almost all special focused Dragons, and allow it to ko Mewtwo and other rather frail sweepers.
-Palkia/Latias Every team based on the sun needs them, because Kyogre is still number one in usage, and you don't want to get swept by it.
-Celebi: The famous combination Celetran could make its way to ubers:
Celetran can stall so many Ubers, it's not even funny, which set you chose is up to you, my advice is Leech Seed and Hp Ice/U-turn on Celebi and restalk, toxic on Heatran. Celebi can effectively deal with water moves(note: modest full powered watersprout from specs-ogre will 2hko)
as well as with Earthquake.
-Skymin/Jumpluff Both work similarly to Celebi, but are rather frail and fear even not very effectif moves when they are fired off by Kyogre or Palkia, they can switch in on EQ though, Jumpluff deserves a special mention as it can encore the previous attack.
-Mewtwo: really likes to sweep through teams that have been softened up by toxic, especially when Palkia and Kyogre are in a weak condition.
-Rayquaza: If you are crazy enough use this little baby in your stall team and switch into CS-Palkia's surf
-Ho-oh: This might seem weird at first glance, but Ho-oh is an excellent addition to Heatran as it can take on all attacks Heatran does not like(exept for surf), it can easily predict a switch to Blissey too and set up on it.


Conclusion:
If you like sunny weather and have a Groudon in almost all of your teams you should really try Heatran. It can easily do Blissey's job without being bothered by Forrtress or Scizor. Celetran is very underlooked in ubers, and can easily decide a match, you will find it very hard to break through a combination of Celebi Groudon and Heatran.
On the other hand, if you are using rain don't even bother testing this Heatran in your team it will never work. Its true home is a balanced/stall team with Groudon.
 

locopoke

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#2
I think the ShucaTran set sucks.

This Heatran will never be koed by Eq-Hooh nor SD-Quaza(even adamant can't) so that you can blow up in their faces and see the surprise.
SD Ray with +2 attack easily OHKO's (132.12% - 155.96%) so I think it's dumb that you even mention SD Ray since there's a very good chance that it's going to end up getting +2 attack.

It might not work as a lead in ubers, but has great utility in teams that have a sweeping Groudon and thus need Stealth Rock as well as some protection against Hooh, Heatran can come in on Sacred Fire and use either Hp rock(does about 60% max.) or blow up on it.
I'm not sure which damage calculator you used but the calcs I got were 43.89% - 51.87%. That's only a 7% chance of KOing after Ho-oh takes SR damage, not even worth it mentioning it on the set.

ShucaTran is such an idiotic set, I don't even know why it's on here. Heatran has shitty defensive stats compared to the ubers and the huge ground weakness also sucks. Max atk LO Groudon with a +atk nature OHKO's you 100% of the time regardless of the berry, and it even manages to OHKO 25% of the time without holding LO. Even though Dialga doesn't have the valuable Fire immunity, it has much better defenses and better typing which is why does the job of SR + status better. Also I think your Restalk Tran set is worthless too. Once your asleep a Pokemon can easily switch in and set up on you. You'd better hope that they're not holding a Lum Berry otherwise your whole team is done (referring mostly to Rock Polish Groudon and DD / SD Rayquaza). ScarfTran and SubToxic Tran are the only viable Heatran movesets in Ubers
 

bojangles

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#3
I think locopoke was pointing out that you're post was sort of ambiguous, pertaining to the SD Quaza part.

On a different note, theres a simple yet quite powerful set that Heatran can run.

Heatran @ Choice Specs
Modest
252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 HP
- Fire Blast
- Overheat
- Dragon Pulse
- Earth Power

Heatran hits like a truck, especially in the sun. Its great to use it with like Scizor, Forretress, or any other fire-weak pokemon. Many times, for instance, Latios will run HP Fire solely for this purpose. You can then switch in for free and grab a Flash Fire boost. In the sun, with Specs and FF boost, Heatran's Fire-type moves do a ton of damage. For example, Overheat will OHKO a Careful Bulk Up Variant of Dialga. Dragon Pulse does well with destroying pokemon like Palkia, Latias, and Latios, but you should only stay in if you know that they don't have a Water-type move (unlikely on Lati@s though).

Another possibility is to remove one of the moves, use a Quiet nature, move the HP EVs to Attack and run Explosion, to take another Pokémon out. Quiet is probably best, since Heatran's Speed is very sub par for Ubers, so it'll mainly be relying on its resistances / defenses. Therefore, don't take away for its defenses.

EDIT: Garganator makes a valid point. HP Rock can also be used to deal with Ho-oh (although I can't say I've run damage calcs).
 
#4
I also agree that ShuTran and RestTalk Heatrans are really shaky sets to use in Ubers. I think I would prefer to use even Metagross with this kind of set (especially on lead spot). No glaring x4 weakness, much better defensive typing and good bulk, even for ubers makes it better Stealth Rocker if you really need steel type for this role.

But I would add one more set - Choice Specs. Heatran has good enough special attack to use it with good effect, especially under sun (Ho-Oh would still be a bitch without HP Rock). I remember when Giratina took from Positive natured Specs Overheat under sun... 80% of health. Blissey also won't enjoy switching on Heatran eating boosted Fire Blasts. Non-defensive Kyogres sets are 2OHKOed by HP Grass/Electric, so you may outpredict them and at least dent them. But yes, unfortunately something will wall you - Ho-oh or Kyogre, so choosing something here is hard choice (but I guess AncientPower would be last-resort filler if you need both HP Grass/Electric and rock type attack, but Heatran needs all his moveslots, so I don't think it's a great idea). I think it's worth a mention, as I used SpecsTran with solid effect (but yeah, before Ho-Oh era we have right now). It needs a lot more support then for example Scarfer, but I think that SpecsTran is solid choice for sunny based teams.

EDIT: Oh boy, I posted in the same moment as bojangles ;).
 

locopoke

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#5
did I ever say it would survive EQ after a SD? We all know this is impossible I don´t even know why you mention this, it is obvious.
Also why do you say it sucks without even testing it? This thread is about sharing your experience not about posting destructive s***
why would you mention SD Quaza specifically unless you were implying that it was attacking with +2? there would be no other reason to say SD Quaza out of all of the other movesets. also i don't need to necessarily test something before i say it sucks. those two movesets just look really awkward and i can't see them working at all. i honestly don't think anybody who has replied to this thread has tested these sets. you should really post some logs of ShucaTran and RestalkTran working with your next reply.

fyi you don't need to censor words here
 

shrang

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#6
Heatran is one of those good support Pokemon to fit onto a Sun team. It'll lure in Kyogre, expecting Fire Blast, and you'll Sub in its face. Then proceed to Toxic it when it breaks your sub. Calm Minding versions are annoying, but you can always just force it out, bring in Heatran again, and explode on it, removing Kyogre from the battle and letting your Sun team sweep without hindrances (Tyranitar and Abomasnow are rare, and then again, Heatran can still deal with them)
 

Jibaku

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#7
A few problems with the OP (besides a few bit mentioned by locopoke such as the damage calc confusion).

RestTalker said:
It does a good job against SubRoost Leftovers Ho-oh.
Substitute blocks Toxic and Ho-oh can absorb Fire Blasts with relative ease (you have four shots at it due to Pressure. It can sub four times and lol). This means you have to stall out Ho-oh using rest and sleep talk. However, Ho-oh does 26% min to Heatran - a single Brave Bird critcal hit can be enough to put Heatran into unrecoverable range.
Opinion said:
It can easily do Blissey's job without being bothered by Forrtress or Scizor.
Tell Heatran to take Kyogre's Specs Surfs. Or pass Wishes. Point is, you can't just say it does Blissey's job! (he gets 2HKOed with CM or Life Orb aura sphere from Mewtwo). Their roles are very different.

On the other hand, if you are using rain don't even bother testing this Heatran in your team it will never work.
Yeah, heatran isn't even comparable to bliss

since it will be able to wall any Lati@s without Refresh/Safeguard(don't worry these two moves aren't even listed in the usage list)
In the rain you'd have issues with their +1 Soul Dew Thunders.
 
#8
Substitute blocks Toxic and Ho-oh can absorb Fire Blasts with relative ease (you have four shots at it due to Pressure. It can sub four times and lol). This means you have to stall out Ho-oh using rest and sleep talk. However, Ho-oh does 26% min to Heatran - a single Brave Bird critcal hit can be enough to put Heatran into unrecoverable range.
Tell Heatran to take Kyogre's Specs Surfs. Or pass Wishes. Point is, you can't just say it does Blissey's job! (he gets 2HKOed with CM or Life Orb aura sphere from Mewtwo). Their roles are very different.

Yeah, heatran isn't even comparable to bliss

In the rain you'd have issues with their +1 Soul Dew Thunders.
Just to make some things clear:1) It does a better job against defesnive Ho-oh than aginst offensive, since only a crit can kill it, while offensive will always 3hko.
2)It is comparable to Blissey in terms of toxicstalling and its ability to take on many special attackers. It can even wall some things Blissey cannot, like Mixed Dialga with Outrage and the new Mixed Giratina.
3)Of course Thunder is annoying in rain, Lugia can tell you about it, that is why you always have Groudon as a teammate.

@uchihaex:surf from timid Palkia does (30.29% - 36.55%) to Heatran. I wouldn´t call it wall, but he wasn´t completly wrong, you can toxic it and then rest, therefore if you use leftovers>life orb it possibly can take on timid Palkia in the sun.
 

reachzero

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#9
Question. On a defensive Heatran set, why would you ever use Fire Blast rather than Lava Plume, especially in Ubers where so many Pokemon have Pressure? Lava Plume seems like a slam dunk to me.
 
#10
I forgot to mention Lava Plume, your right.
Fire Blast can 2hko Bu Dialga though and ko Mewtwo.
If one opts for a set with leftovers one should consider Lava Plume.
 
#11
I'd say any Heatran set with Substitute is useful. Although it was a while back, Heatran is one hell of a lure for stuff like Kyogre; you can set up the Substitute and proceed to HP Grass, Toxic, or even Explode on the thing. Fire Blast under the sun packs one hell of a punch, and something like Dragon Pulse can help offset some damage.

A SpD bulky Heatran with Substitute+Toxic is quite effective; you can cripple the Kyogre switch in, and once it is gone, Heatran is difficult to take down under the sun since Surf no longer does much damage at all. Toxic is really annoying for the majority of EQ users as well, like Garchomp, Groudon, Rayquaza.
 
#12
TormentTran could be quite effective in Ubers (with Toxic Spikes), since there are so many scarfers (Palkia, Kyogre...), and even things like Calm Mind Kyogre can be outstalled (if you are faster than it, and it lacks rest), and it should be noted that the Taunt + Calm Mind Mewtwo set can only break it`s subs with Aura Sphere (They all have Ice Beam and Aura Sphere), and the Standard Lati@s with Thunder and Dragon Pulse will probably lose, too.
 
#13
I'd say any Heatran set with Substitute is useful. Although it was a while back, Heatran is one hell of a lure for stuff like Kyogre; you can set up the Substitute and proceed to HP Grass, Toxic, or even Explode on the thing. Fire Blast under the sun packs one hell of a punch, and something like Dragon Pulse can help offset some damage.

A SpD bulky Heatran with Substitute+Toxic is quite effective; you can cripple the Kyogre switch in, and once it is gone, Heatran is difficult to take down under the sun since Surf no longer does much damage at all. Toxic is really annoying for the majority of EQ users as well, like Garchomp, Groudon, Rayquaza.
I've found Will-o-Wisp to be quite effective in Ubers as well(when I get the chance to play). Those EQ users you named, along with pokemon like Dialga and Palkia get messed up. Will-o-Wisp is likely to accumulate more damage than Toxic on Kyogre as well, since a Kyogre user will switch out to reset the poison. The only pokemon Will-o-Wisp doesn't affect are opposing Heatran, really, which are handled by Earth Power.
 

Myzozoa

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#14
I think tormentran is the most interesting heatran. I know that electric+water attacking combinations are very popular in ubers, but its also true that a lot of the pokemon who use those combinations are vulnerable to toxic spikes. I remember being really impressed by a team that I saw Earthworm using that used torment tran to stall out teams.
 
#15
@Blasphemy: How can Kyogre reset the poison by switching out?
I find Will o Wisp to be nice because of the Steels running around, most importantly Dialga.
When you switch out, bad poison resets below normal, as it intensifies. It doesn't remove the status, but makes it do less than burn.
 

Myzozoa

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#16
That means that kyogre and another pokemon have to go through whatever entry traps you have up (which should be a lot). I would rather have his entire team forced to keep resetting poison and going through hazards then just have a useless burn on kyogre.
 
#17
That means that kyogre and another pokemon have to go through whatever entry traps you have up (which should be a lot). I would rather have his entire team forced to keep resetting poison and going through hazards then just have a useless burn on kyogre.
Well, as previously stated, Will-o-Wisp hits things like Dialga, Rayquaza, Groudon, and Garchomp, crippling them more than Toxic.
 

HSA

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#19
But toxic could be useful on Darkrai, Kyogre, Deoxys-D/A, Diagla and other Ubers.... forcing them to switch out.
Dialga is a steel type.

I really think the decision of status is really decide by what exactly you want the heatran to do. If you want it to screw kyogre and other special attackers, use toxic. On the other hand, WoW is great for groudon and dialga.
 
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