Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

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Mario With Lasers

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Actually, I believe in the Kangaskhan thread, someone tried to tutor Knock Off in 4th gen to a Kangaskhan and it didn't work. So, Knock Off is not a viable move for Mega Kangaskhan.
Are we sure about this? I remember reading in that same discussion that Kangaskhan could learn it, but only in one 4th Gen set (DPPt, iirc).

Something I've been wondering.

What if maybe, just maybe, the rumors about the little hexagon thing ingame which only Kalos-bred mons would have meant that only those mons would be able to be used in official tournament formats.

If this were true, this would mean Mega Mom would lose a couple of important moves. Wish, Fire Punch, Seismic Toss would be unavailable and thus make Mega Mom easier to counter because it would only be able to run the standard Return/PUP/Sucker Punch with Earthquake or Crunch as a fourth move.

Would this mean that Mega Mom would be able to be more easily countered/checked and stay OU?

Now, this is just speculation since I have no idea how things will work in reality post-bank. And I don't even know if Smogon would bother to follow a "Kalos bred only" rule on simulators. As of now, I still think Mega Mom is too good for OU, but what if what I said happens?
Losing Wish and SToss will be bad, but...

0 SpA Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 204-246 (57.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 129-153 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 378-450 (109.8 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 312-372 (88.1 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 135-162 (36 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 144-171 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

Still works, I guess. Except for Garchomp. Fuck it.
 
Mega Kanga definitely worth review, parental bond is the equivalent of having a choice band, except your not locked into a move and you can break subs and deal damage in the same turn with any move you have. Power up punch is essentially swords dance with damage, and after one power up mega kanga can 2hko most relevent threats with crunch/ sucker punch / return. Mega Kanga is still out speeded by a lot of mons, so if you are really troubled by mega kanga bring some1 who resist suker punch and hope kanga is at + 4 already. Probably needs to be banned in my opinion.
 
I do not believe Kang deserves to be banned for the following reasons:
It is easily counterable before, while, and after it has set up:

As a user of mega khan, this is how you deal with it:
As soon as you see Mega Khan on the field a counter should be sent out.
1.)Send out a Garchomp with Rocky Helmet, hit it with an EQ, Khan returns with PuP, DEAD khan.
2.)Send out Ferrothorn with Rocky Helmet, he uses PuP, you win, he uses EQ, you use Leech Seed/Protect/Thunderwave etc, you win.
3.)Send out Mandibuzz, he uses pup, you OHKO him with the Foul Play, he uses Earthquake, you take no damage. He uses Sucker punch, you laugh it off.
4.)Send out Lucario before he M-Evos, hope you win the speed tie, if you do, game over.(This isn't a counter, but can help check him).
5.)Send out Skarmory with Rocky Helmet, tank his PuP or Return while hitting whirlwhind, then Roost it off.
6.)Send out SableEye, Hit him with the WoW, Foul Play/Recover it off. GG

If anything, you should band power up punch on Kangaskhan. That would solve your OMG he is at +2, game over Hyper Offense crybabies who thought they could win all their games by packing nothing but offensive behemoths in their team.

Seriously though, with the usage of Garchomp/Ferrothorn in the current Meta due to Talonflame presence, there should be no reason to ban Kangaskhanite. Power up Punch, I can understand, but Kangaskhanite? Naw...

May sound like a fallacy, but at this rate, all the Megas will be banned.
1. Kangaskhan can switch to a Garchomp counter if it's not boosted already. Garchomp can't switch in because of the risk of PuP. Even in the ideal case all Garchomp does is force a switch, and Kangaskhan can come back later.

2. If a Ferrothorn comes in, switch. Eliminate the Ferro before sweeping.

3. Mandibuzz is easily KOed by PuP->Return after SR, and has a good chance to be KOed before SR. It can't switch in and can only revenge kill, and only without SR, and in return for 90% of its health.

4. Lucario can only win if already Mega Evolved, but it can win against the "best" set of Return/PuP/Crunch/Sucker Punch most of the time.

5. lol Rocky Helmet Skarmory. You get ~33% in on Kangaskhan in exchange for some of your HP, and if you Roost you lose momentum. The fact that we are even putting Rocky Helmets on Skarmory...

6. Kangaskhan is switching out of Sableye and Sableye can't take too many Crunches.

We do not do complex bans.

Power-Up Punch is not really a problem outside of Mega Kangaskhan, so there's no need to ban it.

And if all the Megas are too good ban all of them.

All the ways you listed are either niche (Rocky Hemlet Skarmory/Garchomp), or don't work against a competent player (Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn, Sableye), or just flat out don't work (Mandibuzz, Lucario). The fact that you are using those to beat Mega Kangaskhan is already an indication of how broken it is.
 

Shroomisaur

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Rocky Helmet Gyarados with Intimidate (which I use) can come in on a lot and Roar it away.
...really? You really honestly think that?

+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados: 369-433 (93.6 - 109.8%) -- Guaranteed OHKO with PuP damage

Also even if you somehow did manage to get in on Sucker Punch or something, you're running a horribly specialized sub-optimal Gyarados set for the sole sake of countering Megakahn. You could say that Rocky Helmet Lv1 Sturdy Magnemite is a good "check" to Megakahn by your reasoning. I'm tired of people listing sub-optimal Pokemon and/or sets and then claiming that Megakahn is manageable.

You know, running physically bulky Rotom-Fan and Air Balloon everything would have made Excadrill easy to check in Gen 5. That was unreasonable and Excadrill was broken, and Megakahn is ten times worse.

Are we sure about this? I remember reading in that same discussion that Kangaskhan could learn it, but only in one 4th Gen set (DPPt, iirc).
I tested it myself in HG and it did not get Knock Off, the only possibility would be if it somehow got it in Platinum yet not HGSS.
 

Mario With Lasers

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1.)Send out a Garchomp with Rocky Helmet, hit it with an EQ, Khan returns with PuP, DEAD khan.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 145-172 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 279-330 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can only switch-in on Sucker Punch.

2.)Send out Ferrothorn with Rocky Helmet, he uses PuP, you win, he uses EQ, you use Leech Seed/Protect/Thunderwave etc, you win.
Fire Blast works as a coverage move.

3.)Send out Mandibuzz, he uses pup, you OHKO him with the Foul Play, he uses Earthquake, you take no damage. He uses Sucker punch, you laugh it off.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

I can give you that, but do note she's 2HKOed with Stealth Rock at her best so you have to be wary.

4.)Send out Lucario before he M-Evos, hope you win the speed tie, if you do, game over.(This isn't a counter, but can help check him).
You forgot the part where you eat one of his moves for breakfast.

5.)Send out Skarmory with Rocky Helmet, tank his PuP or Return while hitting whirlwhind, then Roost it off.
Again, Fire Blast. And seriously, I have the feeling the Kangaskhan user is winning if you have to resort to lol Rocky Helmet Skarm instead of Leftovers or Shed Shell...

6.)Send out SableEye, Hit him with the WoW, Foul Play/Recover it off. GG
Yeah I can't think of anything that beats Sableye, but is that fucker even good elsewhere? Serious question.

If anything, you should ban power up punch on Kangaskhan.
We're never ever ever doing that kind of thing again, fortunately.

That would solve your OMG he is at +2, game over Hyper Offense crybabies
This is not /vp/, do not resort to that kind of shit.

May sound like a fallacy, but at this rate, all the Megas will be banned.
This is like saying banning a couple legendaries will mean we'll ban them all.
 
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The number of M-Kangaskhan counters you can count on 2 fingers - Sableye + Cofagrigus (Lol) - and they're shaky at best. The worst thing is, they force Kang out (and even then, only even once if the Kang crunches on switch), but they HAVE to WoW, they literally have no choice, which makes for an easy pick as to what safe switch you want to throw at them. Heatran for the free flash fire boost comes to mind.

The number of M-Kanaskhan checks, you can count on 1 hand - Faster fighting types that a) Either have to M-evolve before M-kanga does so they can even perform, b) Fail if Sticky Web is down, c) Can't really take much residual damage before they lose to Sucker Punch, d) can only revenge kill anyway meaning at worst Kang pulls out even, rocky helmet mons which have to sacrifice themselves to do their job, other will-o-wisping ghosts that have to come in on a predicted PuP/Return or they'll die to Crunch.

Other than those measures, you're limited to saccing the mon Kang comes in on to deal enough damage to revenge with priority. Did I mention Kang takes like, 35% from Mega-Luc's Adaptability Bullet Punch?

The fact is, even with a decent kang check on your team, kang is BARELY manageable at best. I don't run M-kang myself, and I've dealt with my fair share of M-kang teams with more success than failure but I just don't think it's healthy for the metagame. You don't even need to build a team around it. It's entirely self-sufficient. It takes away any creativity needed in Team Building by single-handedly tilting the battle in your favour just by virtue of being present on your team and turns the battle into a one-dimensional, I need to kill this one mon or I'm f***ed situation.
 
Just going to copy and paste my post from the other Kangaskhan thread.

This is actually an anecdote going back to early Gen 5, right before the Excadrill ban. At that point, people were coming up with entirely unviable sets solely to beat Excadrill. A famous example is Balloon/Magnet Rise Magnezone, who could come in after a kill, take a Rock Slide as it used Magnet Rise, then be immune to EQ for a few turns while it spammed HP Fire. Scarf Politoed was also the most popular set (in fact, it was listed first in the analysis, whereas it dropped down to 3rd by the end of Gen 5) simply for its ability to beat Excadrill.

Usage stats from July 2013 http://paste.ubuntu.com/5939795/
Choice Scarf 9.085% <-less than 1 in 10 at the end. There's no moveset statistic from right before the Excadrill ban, but Scarf-Toed was definitely the most common set.

Compare that to the current situation, where Rocky Helmet is suggested on Skarmory (instead of Leftovers) and Garchomp (instead of Leftovers / Yache / LO / Scarf / Band) solely to beat Mega-Kangaskhan, and where sets such as Skill Swap Cofagrigus pop up (again) solely to stop Kangaskhan. These sets are generally inferior to their alternative, which is a sign that Mega-Kangaskhan is over-centralizing the metagame.

So in summary: Does Mega-Kangaskhan deserve a ban for being broken? That depends on your definition of broken. A ton of posts here are essentially "Mega-Khan beats my team 6-0, ban it." or "Mega-Khan can't get past my Gyarados/Gengar combo, don't ban it." How broken something has to be before it *has* to be banned will change depending on who you ask.

Is Mega-Kangaskhan strong enough to force people to use sub-optimal sets solely to stop it? Yes.

Would OU be better off witout Mega-Kangaskhan? For the above reason, yes. It's not simply a matter of "Just run a counter to it." anymore. It's gotten to the point where even the counters have to be specifically tailored to beating Khan. Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn does a worse job of beating Rotom-W than Leftovers Ferrothorn, since you're taking a bit of extra damage each turn. Rocky Helmet Skarmory is more vulnerable to being KO'd without Leftovers restoring its Sturdy. In trying to beat Khan, people are harming their chances of beating the rest of the metagame.
But when is something becoming "the main set" bad and when is it good?

I understand that neither of us claim to know this "invisible line", but I want to demonstrate how this isn't actually bad. Once upon a time Magnezone did this to basically all steels, Shed Shell vs Leftovers debate, etc. Personally I think that items like Rocky Helmet are totally acceptable metagame shifts. Just because people are used to running something else doesn't mean it's bad that Rocky Helmet is now the best item (and how many pokemon are responsible for that is irrelevant). Shed shell helped against ONE pokemon and did NOTHING against the rest. Rocky Helmet is a useful item in 99% of matchups, it was used before MegaKang existed, and was frankly always undervalued. Was it better than YacheBerry for Garchomp in Gen4? God no. But metagames shift, and shifting from one item that is almost always useful to another item that is always useful is a fine change imo.
 
  • 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 321-379 (86 - 101.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Short answer: No.
Long answer: NOOOOOO!!! OF COURSE NOT! IT'S NOT EVEN HALF A CHECK!!!

As for the other "options"
  • Aerodactyl: Get's 2HKO'd by a resisted Return and dies to unboosted Sucker Punch. Classy.
  • Manectric: Kills you through Intimidate with +1 Return.
  • Garchomp: It's really not an answer at all, and I run it. You have to offer it as a sacrifice as if it were a yadnya to the gods, and by then, you've opened a huge hole in your team. Same goes for Ferrothorn.
  • Zoroark: RIP in pieces
  • Volcarona: see above
  • Noivern: ibid.
  • Sableye and Cofagrigus: On any other situation in OU, they're considered dead weight. It does not speak very well that these are the only half-decent answers to this monster.
As for revenge-killing, being able to revenge-kill doesn't change the fact that it killed something on your team and done its job. Additionally, things that can revenge-kill it are severely limited by its bulk, speed and access to priority. Only musketeers, Infernape, Mienshao and maybe Scarf Heracross than even think about it (also Kang can switch out to a Ghost anyway so)
Yeah look I sorta figured Crobat wouldn't work. Aerodactyl turns into a prediction war, since Kanga loses if it Sucker Punches into Whirlwind (ticks up entry hazards) and if it Returns into a sufficiently damaging attack like Stone Edge it's not going to be in good shape for the rest of the match. Manectric will outspeed and function similarly. Garchomp needs to be running Roar to work (I'm assuming Sucker Punch mangles it). I'm not sure what is killing Zoroark given it has higher Speed, Sucker Punch resistance, and access to Focus Blast, I could see Illusioning it as something vulnerable to Sucker Punch causing some difficult decisions (even potentially discouraging Sucker Punch against other teammates). Volcarona probably isn't a great idea, although correct prediction can net you a Quiver Dance off Sucker Punch followed by either an attack or Whirlwind if a second Sucker Punch is predicted. Noivern has a similar setup to Aerodactyl, although considerably better: If Kanga Sucker Punches it can Whirlwind it out, and if it doesn't it can Focus Blast it dead. It can also switch in on PuP without issues. I don't see how Kanga is supposed to hit it safely. (I'm assuming PuP first turn for all of these scenarios: If Return or something is predicted it's a simple matter of bringing in something that beats Kanga unboosted, which is far less difficult)

If it killed something on your team but took enough damage that it will now lose to priority, then yes it did come out slightly ahead. However, it's also your opponent's Mega slot. That means it's one dead pokemon on your side vs. one mostly dead Mega on the opposing side, which depending on how well you can use YOUR mega might be worth it. I feel like there's a decent number of Pokemon that can threaten to cripple it sufficiently that a strong priority user becomes enough to outright counter it for the rest of the match, at least without Wish support which is generally predictable and would provide a free switch-in, which opens up even more options. In summary, if it kills a single pokemon it hasn't necessarily done its job because it is taking up their Mega slot, so if all it does is trade for something that's not taking up YOUR mega slot then you might not come out behind.

Soo...don't try a sweep until your opponent's Keldeo and Sableye are gone? Also it can afford to switch out and ditch its boosts, as there will always be more opportunities later. Don't think that just because you have +2 you have to stay in, because you are not staying in on Sableye/Keldeo/Terrakion.

And lol Kee Berry. Most mons have something better to be doing. I can maybe see it on Trevenant, but...okay no.
What's wrong with Kee Berry? PuP is a weak attack that'll trigger it at relatively low cost (especially if resisted) and it provides additional resilience against priority. Depending on what's floating around, the Defense boost might be enough to keep some Pokemon in against common checks that usually handle it with priority (working similar to Assault Vest but trading the no-status restriction for it being a one switch-in deal). It also allows the use of Acrobatics which could potentially be valuable.

Besides, if you're forcing Kanga out at relatively low cost doesn't that mean you're keeping it relatively in check? Presumably keeping your checks to it alive is just part of the process of playing the game anyway. I was pretty sure that not trying a sweep until the opposing checks to it are gone was pretty standard play.
 
It's not easy to find fast stuff that can take boosted Sucker Punches, and a lot of faster mons that can take them can't actually KO back anyways (you have the musketeers, and Infernape.).
Out of all those you mentioned, only Cobalion can handle it anyway. Infernape dies to Sucker Punch, and I'm pretty sure even Cobalion dies to a boosted Sucker Punch. My main point is, this thing is broken as fuck, and it needs to be in Ubers where it belongs. It makes Stall obsolete just like Gengar did.[/quote]
Read the bloody Genagrite ban anouncement. I am sick to death of people not knowing why MGar was banned, and spouting their annoying as crap reasons that they pull out of their ass. READ IT!
 
While Khan is beatable with prediction, prediction is a very piss poor argument. It needs to be banned mainly because it overcentalizes the meta in a way that only Stealth Rock should ever do. Nothing can take boosted Sucker Punch, not even Terrakion, so if it can beat it's checks, they are no longer checks.
 
+1 this:
While Khan is beatable with prediction, prediction is a very piss poor argument.
All I read is Rocky Helmet Blabla...comeon guys,
the fact that you are using things like rocky helmet Garchomp (facepalm) and/or waste a slot with Evolith Dusclops to beat 1 Pokemon is already a proof of how braindead and broken M.Kangaskhan is.
Well, It has few "checks" but not even one true counter and not much can OHKO it.
 
But when is something becoming "the main set" bad and when is it good?

I understand that neither of us claim to know this "invisible line", but I want to demonstrate how this isn't actually bad. Once upon a time Magnezone did this to basically all steels, Shed Shell vs Leftovers debate, etc. Personally I think that items like Rocky Helmet are totally acceptable metagame shifts. Just because people are used to running something else doesn't mean it's bad that Rocky Helmet is now the best item (and how many pokemon are responsible for that is irrelevant). Shed shell helped against ONE pokemon and did NOTHING against the rest. Rocky Helmet is a useful item in 99% of matchups, it was used before MegaKang existed, and was frankly always undervalued. Was it better than YacheBerry for Garchomp in Gen4? God no. But metagames shift, and shifting from one item that is almost always useful to another item that is always useful is a fine change imo.
Throughout the last 2 generations, Magnezone has existed along with Shed Shell, yet Shed Shell has never been the single most used item on any Steel. It simply wasn't worth it. It was an option on everything, the same way that Rocky Helmet was an option last gen. I mean:

Rocky Helmet Gyarados with Intimidate (which I use) can come in on a lot and Roar it away.
Seriously? Rocky Helmet Gyarados? When stuff like that gets suggested in order to beat a single Pokemon, there's something wrong.

The problem isn't that Rocky Helmet is always useful. The problem is that Rocky Helmet is always useful because of a single Pokemon, and strictly worse in almost every other case. If your opponent isn't running a Mega-Khan, then the Rocky Helmet actually penalizes you. Even you admit it: you say that Rocky Helmet is always useful. That's called centralization: when Kangaskhan singlehandedly made Rocky Helmet more useful than Leftovers on several Pokemon.
 
Tyranitar / Talonflame / Kangaskhan / Rotom / Genesect / xxxxx is the best team in OU and there's no way to play a competitive match against it. Switching is a bad idea because nothing counters Khan and 3 or 4 of the team has volt-turn to punish you. Just in turn 1 you are already planning which sacrifice to make. Not planning to sweep. Not planning to set up subs or hazards. You're just guessing who is scarfed, who is banded, who has fireblast, and who are you going to fodder off just so you finally have 1 guaranteed match up.

Khan is the pokemon that pushes everything over the edge because it can use everything from Sucker Punch to Double Edge to Ice Beam with great effect. Being whittled down by voltturn and sand is completely manageable. It's a fair and good playstyle. But that "whittling down" is so easy to do when Khan can OHKO any pokemon with 90/90/90 defenses without any set up at all. It literally only needs Return and Sucker Punch to mash through anything that isn't rock or steel. It is stronger than CB Arceus and can change moves. It can't be Trick'd. Will-o-Wisp misses a lot. It can eat skarm for breakfast with fire punch. You can't taunt its version of Swords Dance.

All of the above points towards centralization. He's just the best pokemon to use right now. My own khan is even a good answer to theirs. It's painfully stupid NOT to use this pokemon because any random offensive core can be almost effortlessly used to bring things down into Khan's sweeping range. Khan sweeps offensive pokemon from 100% with nothing but normal STAB and Sucker Punch, and the other 2 moves can be used to break any set of walls of your own choice. Pokemon with good priority moves only need to switch into hazards TWICE and now they are in unboosted sucker punch range.

Therefore I think he is uber because his sheer power makes any other sweeper an objectively bad choice.
 

Dread Arceus

total cockhead
Extremekiller Arceus is a dangerous threat due to its incredible bulk, powerful priority, high Attack, nice Normal typing, and a movepool that allows it to beat almost all of its counters. With a single turn of boosting, almost everything falls before it; even the greatest of walls crumble.
...
All of the above applies to Mega Kangaskhan.
 
If Kangakshan is lacking Fire Punch (which is most cases) Rocky Helmet Ferrathorn will over kill with Leech Seed + Protect.
This also applies to Trevenant if you are lacking Crunch (Even if you have Fire Punch), because he also LeechStall

Well some people will run Fire Blast
0- SpA Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 124-148 (35.2 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's actually not bad, well if the opponent is lacking Leech Seed if I must say.
Fire Punch will do more, but recoil is hella of a thing here.

Keldeo, Terrakion, Virizon, and Terrakion all are counters for mega khan, Only Terrakion and Cobalion can switch on Return, but not on EQ, while it's vice verse on Virizon and Keldeo, either way, they outspeed you, they will kill you, and Sucker Punch won't do that much.

The fact that people are putting Rocky Helmet on Garchomp, Skarmory, Gyrados, and other pokemon that have way better items, just proves the fact of this guys power. Ferrathron would hold Rocky Helmet even in the previous gen though, so it's acceptable, well at least IMO.
Short Answer: Shouldn't be banned.
 
This is by far the hardest Pokemon to counter in OU.
Although it can be beaten, it takes down at least one or two of my Pokemon before I can finally force it down, and that's even when it's only at +2 Attack. I tremble in fear as to how powerful this thing could be with +6 Attack.
However on the positive, there is no reliable recovery for Mega-Kangaskhan, and it somewhat has four moves syndrome (relatively).
As one of the hundreds who have run Khan, you know that there's always one Pokemon to counter you. For me, it's been Mach Punch Conkeldurr, which hasn't showed up often due to the influx of Fairies and Gale Wings Talonflame.

I believe that although Mega Kangaskhan does have some downfalls, it should be pushed to Ubers just because of the sheer power it has
 
but they HAVE to WoW, they literally have no choice, which makes for an easy pick as to what safe switch you want to throw at them. Heatran for the free flash fire boost comes to mind.
Sableye can use Recover, which also has priority, if the player is worried about a Will-o-Wisp prediction. An Adamant Mega Kangaskhan's Earthquake will only do a little over 50% against a max DEF Sableye.

But a good user of Mega Kangaskhan would just switch out against Sableye anyway. Then it becomes a contest to see who dies first to the rest of the opponent's team: Khan or Sableye.
 

Arcticblast

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Once upon a time Magnezone did this to basically all steels, Shed Shell vs Leftovers debate, etc.
Magnezone was a very situational Pokemon - it was slow, its main STAB had a type immune to it that hit it back super effectively, and if its opponent didn't have a Steel it became just another subpar attacker. Kangaskhan is none of these things. Kangaskhan gets over the Ghost immunity with Crunch and/or Sucker Punch. Kangaskhan is never not useful to have because it's to easy to set up and win with it at little to no cost to the rest of your team.
Personally I think that items like Rocky Helmet are totally acceptable metagame shifts. Just because people are used to running something else doesn't mean it's bad that Rocky Helmet is now the best item (and how many pokemon are responsible for that is irrelevant). Shed shell helped against ONE pokemon and did NOTHING against the rest. Rocky Helmet is a useful item in 99% of matchups, it was used before MegaKang existed, and was frankly always undervalued. Was it better than YacheBerry for Garchomp in Gen4? God no. But metagames shift, and shifting from one item that is almost always useful to another item that is always useful is a fine change imo.
This is so laughably wrong it hurts to read. This isn't anywhere on the level of Magnezone versus Steels. Rocky Helmet is now the primary item on Garchomp and on so many physical walls specifically to beat Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Kangaskhan alone. And it's not like Magnezone where they're running Shed Shell to not be trapped by it (which most didn't anyway) - they're running it because they have no other way of beating a Mega Kangaskhan. The last time we saw item centralization like this was in BW2 when people ran Shed Shell Heatran to avoid being trapped by Dugtrio so their Heatran could wall Genesect, who was incidentally the #1 Pokemon on the usage list* and broke 50% usage on Kyurem-B's suspect test. Guess what eventually happened to Genesect?

But when is something becoming "the main set" bad and when is it good?
When it singlehandedly redefines what is viable and unviable. That's what Mega Kangaskhan is doing right now.

*Yes, I know usage is a poor argument to brokenness, but when something breaks 50% in something else's suspect test you know something is horribly, horribly wrong.
 
I have to point out, that somebody on Showdown, actually used Seismic Toss Mega Khan with Wish on me.

^ So no Mega Khan does get a healing move; Wish.


So I want to emphasize on that; Parental Bond 100 HP Damage Seismic Toss; you know what that does? 2-3HKOes any pokemon regardless of the bulk.
 

Srn

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mega kang overcentralizes the meta in such a way that if you don't carry terrakion, cofagrigus, or sableye on your team, its more or less gauranteed one kill, even on a shitty team with no support. There exists nearly NO defensive check that can cripple/k.o. mega kang on the switch in while tanking any of its attacks. Most of your "checks" are one-time that you need to be at full health, and those can easily be worn down.
Plain and Simple: if you don't have an answer to it and you're facing it, chances are you lose two mons off the bat.

What makes kanga worse than mega gengar is, not to be a dickhead, but what makes it worse are THE NOOBS. The noobs ran 4 attacks mega gengar and obviously did not use it to its full potential, and they still are around wondering why it was banned in the first place.
On the contrary, if you ask anyone, even a noob, if mega kang is good or not, they will answer YES.
Do y'all want to know why?

IT'S SO EASY TO USE

Anybody can just smack a mega-kang on their team, run 4 attacks that seem right, and be using mega kang to a good portion of its potential. People who are new to the game would be confused at first as to why a support mega gengar would work and why its more broken than mega kang, but ANYBODY can use a mega kang fairly well! It's simple! Just ATTACK. THAT'S ALL YOU NEED TO DO. NO NEED TO BUILD A VOLT-TURN CORE AROUND IT, NO NEED TO THINK ABOUT ITS SET, NO NEED TO EVEN TRY TO SYNERGIZE WITH IT. JUST PRESS BUTTONS AND FUCKING WIN.
It's simplicity makes it MUCH more common than a well-played mega gengar, which in-turn makes mega kang MUCH more overcentralizing. It's not that its easy to counter or anything, because there are ways to get around it, but it's really REALLY tough to have a team that mega-kang has NO chance of sweeping while keeping the team balanced.

There is no other pokemon so easy to use with so few counters. It's more broken than mega gengar in that regard.
 

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Honestly, if we're being reduced to running Rocky Helmet on stupid stuff like Skarmory in order to "counter" Mega Kangaskhan, which pretty much requires the severe weakening and/or death of the Rocky Helmet user alongside the lack of a guarentee that Kangaskhan will actually be defeated, that's kind of a red flag that we're dealing with something hilariously overpowered here.
 
Extremekiller Arceus is a dangerous threat due to its incredible bulk, powerful priority, high Attack, nice Normal typing, and a movepool that allows it to beat almost all of its counters. With a single turn of boosting, almost everything falls before it; even the greatest of walls crumble.
...
All of the above applies to Mega Kangaskhan.
Speaking of which... more calculations! Here's a real kicker:
  • +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 205-243 (49.3 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 260-307 (62.6 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 337-397 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
You may now empty your bowels in sheer palpable terror.
 
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May sound like a fallacy, but at this rate, all the Megas will be banned.
Yep, that's a fallacy. There is absolutely no threat of, for example, Mega-Gardevoir or Mega-Manectric getting banned. Mega-Kangaskhan is not up for bans because Mega-Gengar and Mega-Blaziken are no longer available. Mega-Kangaskhan had people calling for it to be banned almost since day one (as did Mega-Lucario). Because, on its own, it is broken. If we ban Mega-Kangaskhan, and people ask for bans of Mega-Lucario, we'll get this argument again, and it is still incorrect. The bans are not feeding each other. The Pokémon are being considered for bans because they are, by themselves, broken.

Also, it's irrelevant. If every Mega-Evolution was banned, so what? A shiny new toy is unwelcome if it creates an uncompetitive metagame.
 
Also: I'm pretty sure this is irrelevant because it probably gets OHKOed anyway (everything else that takes SE hits does), but it'd be hilarious if Wobbuffet could come in and Counter it dead.
 
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