Kingdra (The Bulky Swimmer & Mixdra Update)

www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/Kingdra

Couple updates for Kingdra in OU. For starters.. Double Dance should probably be removed simply because if you should EVER go Rain Dance you should go special or mix due to EV concerns and higher base power of special moves. But I think this deserves its own set or should probably replace Double Dance.

[SET]
name: Bulky Swimmer
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Substitute
item: Leftovers
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 244 SpA / 12 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This is your standard Kingdra set. Kingdra gets the most of its high base stats by utilizing its incredible ability in Swift Swim. With Rain Dance acting as an Agility and Growth in one (for Surf), Kingdra can turn into solid bulky stand-alone sweeper with just a single turn of set up. This trait is further amplified by Kingdra only sporting a single weakness in Dragon, which is not easy to exploit. Summoning the Rain also has a few team benefits including buffering Fire weaknesses and clearing the skies of potential Sandstorm or Hail conditions, thus re-stablishing Leftovers recovery on non-immune pokemon.</p>

<p>Surf and Dragon Pulse are the main attacks, and are only resisted by Empoleon in OU. Hydro Pump can be used over Surf for extra kick, as Kingdra is bulky enough to survive a hit or two, though it does not grant any KOs already achieved by Surf. Dragon Pulse doesn't get the benefit of double STAB in the Rain, but 2HKO's Starmie and most frail water resists. Substitute rounds out the set by blocking status and Explosion, two common methods of dealing with Kingdra. However, several other options are available for the last slot. Toxic lets Kingdra outlast its greatest nemesis, Vaporeon, provided Vaporeon does not carry Toxic itself. Signal Beam can put a large dent in Celebi and do decent damge to Abomasnow. Hidden Power Electric can do more to Empoleon and OHKO Gyarados with Stealth Rock, though neither pose an immediate threat to Kingdra. Ice Beam can also be used to 2HKO Celebi and has a shot at OHKOing Breloom, though this is best used in conjuction with Hidden Power Electric for the psuedo Bolt-beam combo.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>While other Kingdra sets that utilize Rain Dance normally find a home on Rain Dance teams (or in Ubers), this set uses Kingdra's solid base 95 defenses and maximum HP investment to act as a stand alone sweeper. With just 12 EVs, Kingdra reaches a speed of 209 allowing it to outpace Choice Scarf Heatran in the Rain and minimum speed Rotom before the Rain. A Damp Rock can be used for a longer Rain Dance if you aren't satisfied with Leftovers recovery and would like more turns on the offensive. Although this does not necessitate a full Rain Dance team, 8 turn Rain Dances must be considered if it hinders any other members, such as pokemon that utilize Fire moves.</p>

<p>Team Options</p>

<p>Kingdra will be looking to switch into Fire and Steel attacks, as his bulky water counterparts are usually tough to defeat. Therefore, Kingdra makes a good teammate to any pokemon that baits these attacks. Scizor is an excellent partner, as he lures in Fire attacks like honey attracts bees, and the Rain may allow him to take a fire attack if he has to quickly switch in on Celebi. Speaking of Celebi, U-turners such as Flygon will do a good job of pressuring Celebi and giving Kingdra a free switch against a favorable matchup. Kingdra's only weakness can be exploited by faster Dragon pokemon, which is only Scarfed Flygon or Scarfed Salamence under rainy conditions. Therefore, strong steel pokemon like Scizor or Metagross, can absorb the attacks if need be.</p>
 
Double Dance is incredibly deadly when played right, I do not agree with it being taken down. I don't personally like that bulky rain dance set on paper, but I'll see what I think after some play tests. The EV fix for the Mixed Rain Dance is necessary. Good call.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
I have been using a very similar Mixed Kingdra set, with very good results. I think you might want to slash Dragon Pulse with Draco Meteor for a reliability vs. power argument.

By the way, you only need 144 Attack EVs (assuming a neutral nature) to guarantee the 2HKO on 252 HP/252 Def Bold Blissey after stealth rock and leftovers in the rain. You should move the rest of the EVs into Special Attack.
 

cim

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I have been using a very similar Mixed Kingdra set, with very good results. I think you might want to slash Dragon Pulse with Draco Meteor for a reliability vs. power argument.
Dragon Pulse is basically only marginally better versus 2x Water resists, enough that it basically doesn't matter.
 
Double Dance needs to stay. It is deadly on non rain dance team if played right. Gives the user versitility and can change shape if only one dance has been shown.
 

Setsuna

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Double Dance is incredibly deadly when played right, I do not agree with it being taken down. I don't personally like that bulky rain dance set on paper, but I'll see what I think after some play tests. The EV fix for the Mixed Rain Dance is necessary. Good call.
This.

Also, I recommend you to use the skeletons posted in the rules, seeing as you have obviated them in both Kingdra and Hariyama sets.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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So long as it conveys the necessary information, there is no need to stick to a specific format of skeleton, or even to use a skeleton at all.
 

Setsuna

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So long as it conveys the necessary information, there is no need to stick to a specific format of skeleton, or even to use a skeleton at all.
It was a suggestion :). Using skeletons on sets that need QC assistance could save a lot of time to the poster, just like the "Bulky Swimmer" set that was proposed here. But yeah, as you pointed out, there's evidently no need to stick to a specific format for posting sets.
 

eric the espeon

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mhm, the format suggested in the rules sticky is a good one, and skeletons do help avoid wasted effort. I was just clarifying that there was no obligation to follow a specific format.
 

Farmer

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Double Dance is incredibly deadly when played right, I do not agree with it being taken down. I don't personally like that bulky rain dance set on paper, but I'll see what I think after some play tests. The EV fix for the Mixed Rain Dance is necessary. Good call.
I pretty much feel the same way, I don't like the idea of bulky rain dance, but I'll also test it before I give my final verdict. I'm also for the the ev changes on the mix set.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
Dragon Pulse is basically only marginally better versus 2x Water resists, enough that it basically doesn't matter.
Dragon Pulse is very helpful in taking out dragons like Salamence and Dragonite without dropping your SpA two stages. When you are forced to use Draco Meteor, it is almost a ticket to allow steels like Jirachi and Metagross to set up, as a -2 Surf does very little to both of them.

Also, I would like to continue to stress 144 Atk EVs to 2HKO 252 HP/252 Def Bold Blissey in the rain, as it really seems like you are wasting EVs there.
 
Also, I would like to continue to stress 144 Atk EVs to 2HKO 252 HP/252 Def Bold Blissey in the rain, as it really seems like you are wasting EVs there.
Its not a matter of being able to 2HKO Blissey with Waterfall. Lowering the attack any more means you are lowering your chance to 2HKO with Hydro Pump followed by a Waterfall. As of now it stands a pretty decent chance, but the more you take a way the less chance you have. So that would decrease the wall-breaking nature of the set. Dumping them into special attack won't make a noticebale difference in Hydro Pump's output on Blissey, but lowering your attack certainly will for Waterfall.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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I'm not a fan of the bulky RD set, so I'd like to hear from some people with more experience with it. To me, it seems like Bulky RD is just iffy compared to Bulky DD, since bulk translates into multiple Dragon Dances for a bulky Kingdra, especially the ResTalk variant, which is especially vicious.

Mixdra changes look fine. I've thought the EVs needed updating for a long while now.

Double Dance needs to stay. It's ridiculously deadly, since it can pretty much be played either way, and it really doesn't need a lot of frivolous coverage due to its fantastic dual STAB.
 
Bulky RD is a fine set. Against most foes, there's no need to run extra speed (for example, Agiligross doesn't try to outrun +100 scarfers), and the added HP significantly boosts Kingdra's defensive potential and lets it setup on a wider variety of foes. Also makes it much harder to revenge with priority like Scizor's Bullet Punch and Lucario's Extremespeed.

75/95/95 is nothing to scoff at, especially after max HP investment.

Small note: I'd max SpA and throw the rest in HP, though.
 
I've been using the bulky Rain Dance set with Fireburn and it is awesome! The bulk allows it to set up on so many Pokemon and it makes a wonderful Skarmory lure. You've got to try it with Toxic Spikes; it makes it twice as good. Ain't that right Fireburn?
 

Fireburn

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The bulky RD set is nothing to scoff at. With Toxic Spikes support it can easily beat down common Kingdra checks such as Vaporeon and Celebi and even Blissey sometimes. It also makes a good lure to Skarmories who expect the Sub DD set and the extra bulk helps it get a free sub on a lot of defensive Pokemon. Like Phantom said, priority doesn't hurt it too much and it has more power than the SubDD set in rain.

IMO it should get an analysis.
 

AccidentalGreed

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I've been using Bulky Kingdra to an extent where it's not a generic Rain Dance sweeper on a generic Rain Dance team. It's quite bulky and offensive enough to warrant an analysis, but my only "gripe" about it is the fact that it gets revenged alot by smart players using things like Breloom or things that can at least survive a special assault and take out the sub when the Rain’s out. Yes, Kingdra has the bulk and some recovery to set up Rain Dance easily, but despite Swift Swim...it’s not safe after its Substitute has been taken down and Rain has been forced out, which many players will be eager to break. Minor thing, but just preference: Kingdra doesn’t quite “sweep”; instead, it weakens a team, so it doesn’t hit too significantly.

A trend on Bulky Rain Dance Kingdra is that many players will assume the Anti-SubDD position by using something like Skarmory or Swampert. Both are easily taken care of by Surf/Hydro Pump, and the “counters” are eliminated. Swampert’s 2HKO’s by both Rain Danced Surf and Hydro Pump, while Hydro Pump manages a definite OHKO on Spiker Skarmory. And yes, Vaporeon is fucking annoying as always is. A Breloom or Celebi should take care of Tyranitar and Swampert and Vaporeon. In fact, teammates for the counters is a must, since this doesn’t hit hard enough.
 

Setsuna

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I've edited the OP and left only the set that's being approved by QC, the "Bulky Swimmer", that is. I'll revise the writeup later and make any necessary changes.

((From Philip and myself))



Or

Approved (3/3)
 
So because the Kingdra update finally went on-site and apparently covered most of the issues brought up in this thread unwittingly, I am going to move this to L&O. If there is any issue with this, please PM me and we can discuss it. If further updates are necessary for on-site Kingdra, please take them through QC.
 

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