Kung Fu Fighting - Infernape Discussion

Fireburn

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#1
INFERNAPE



-Overview

This is a thread dedicated to the discussion of the usage of Infernape in Ubers. Whilst the flaming chimp may seem like a strange choice for an Ubers team, it can be a large threat that should not be underestimated. You may think that Infernape is outclassed by the other attackers in Ubers with seemingly better movepools and offensive capabilities, but as you read on, you will hopefully come to realize that Infernape can actually be a pretty big Ubers threat.

-Infernape’s Qualities: Why would you use it?

Let’s start off by taking a look at Infernape’s stats:

76 HP / 104 Atk / 71 Def / 104 SpA / 71 SpD / 108 Spe.

Offensively, Infernape is no slouch, boasting a good Base 104 stat in both Attack and Special Attack. Infernape also has an excellent movepool and access to STAB Base 120 power attacks on both ends of the spectrum, as well as both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot to boost its impressive offenses. However, Infernape has a hard time setting up, and even when set up may not match the power output of other pure sweepers such as Rayquaza, Groudon, and Darkrai. Furthermore, Infernape faces a lot of competition for the role of a special attacker, especially when Mewtwo and Kyogre are some of the Pokemon you have to compete with. Infernape’s true strength lies in being a mixed attacker. Infernape is fast enough to outspeed most of the Uber metagame, with only Lati@s, Mewtwo, Shaymin-S, and Darkrai being the only common things outspeeding it. Thanks to its good movepool and formidable offenses, Infernape can put quite a dent into teams, being capable of O-2HKOing the majority of the Uber metagame. With Ho-oh becoming more popular on defensive teams, Infernape’s immunity to being burned, and therefore losing your ability to effectively break Blissey, just might save you against a Stall team.

Infernape’s main weakness in Ubers lies, however, in its defenses. Infernape is frailer than Darkrai, and unlike Lucario, the other Fighting-type Pokemon commonly used in Ubers, Infernapes lacks a ton of resistances for it to come in on. Infernape, however, still has some good resistances to Fire-, Ice-, Steel-, Bug-, Grass-, and Dark-type attacks, which are often seen in Ubers play. In addition, out of Infernape’s weaknesses to Water-, Ground-, Psychic-, and Flying-type attacks, only the former two are commonly seen. The best way to get Infernape into battle is through Wobbuffet (Encore), U-turn from a Pokemon such as Scizor or Jirachi, or after another of your team members has been KOed, but once in, it can cause some serious damage.

Support-wise, Infernape doesn’t have much. However, Infernape does have one extremely useful supporting move: Stealth Rock. This is extremely useful for any team, and thanks to Infernape’s good Speed and offenses, it can work very well as a lead for an offensive team, able to set up Stealth Rock and get a hit or two in before going down.

Now that you are aware of Infernape’s traits, here are some sets that are proven to work in the Ubers Metagame:

-Viable Sets Thus Far

LEAD


Infernape (M) @ Focus Sash / Lum Berry
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk/212 Spd/46 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

Infernape makes for a great lead. It is able to get up SR against any slower lead (such as Mew) as well as getting in a few hits before going down. Against other leads, Deoxys is dealt with by simply U-turning to a priority user such as Scizor or Rayquaza. U-turn also lends scouting abilities to your team, as well as helping other Pokemon get in safely, as well as making sure Infernape does not die to Wobbuffet. Against Groudon and Dialga you can easily get Stealth Rock up and then 2HKO them with Fire Blast and Close Combat, respectively. Darkrai beats you unless you are running Lum Berry, in which case you will absorb Dark Void and OHKO with Close Combat. Mew is dealt with by using Stealth Rock and then U-turning to a counter, such as Scizor. Kyogre will kill Infernape with Surf, but Infernape will still get Stealth Rock up, which is its primary function. Scizor, Forretress, and Tyranitar will fall to your STAB attacks.

This lead has trouble with Darkrai (Without Lum Berry) and Shaymin-S. Scizor easily handles both of them, and it gives you a priority user for Deoxys leads.

PHYSICAL MIXED

Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk/212 Spd/46 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast / Overheat
- Stone Edge
- U-turn

This set is a fast, powerful wallbreaker that will 2HKO any wall not named Giratina, and immunity to Burn protects your ability to KO Latias. Physical Mixed works better than Special Mixed in Ubers since most Ubers have weaker Physical Defense. Close Combat 2HKOes Kyogre and Palkia and OHKOes Blissey, and will be your main attack. Fire Blast destroys Steels, Groudon, and 2HKOes Lugia after Stealth Rock damage as long as the sunlight is out. (Overheat might be able to OHKO Groudon but I will need to do calcs later.) Stone Edge OHKOes Ho-oh and Rayquaza as well as still 2HKOing Lugia after Stealth Rock. U-turn owns Latias and hurts Mewtwo switch-ins. U-turn is probably the main reason you would use this set over other Wallbreakers, as its scouting abilities are immensely helpful.

It is advised to have a Giratina counter as that is the one wall Infernape can’t break. Dialga and Latias both work very well. You will also want Sunlight from Groudon to power up Fire Blast.

Damage Calcs From This Set (Using Libelldra’s Calculator.):

Close Combat


-252 HP Kyogre

307 Atk vs 216 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 238 - 282 (58.91% - 69.80%) 2HKO

-252 HP/252 Def Bold Kyogre
307 Atk vs 306 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 169 - 199 (41.83% - 49.26%) 2HKO with SR (81% chance)

-Min/Min Palkia
307 Atk vs 236 Def & 321 HP (120 Base Power): 219 - 258 (68.22% - 80.37%) 2HKO

-Min/Min Garchomp
307 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (120 Base Power): 228 - 268 (63.87% - 75.07%) 2HKO

Fire Blast (Assumes Sunlight)


-252 HP/60 SDef Groudon
255 Atk vs 231 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 277 - 327 (68.56% - 80.94%) 2HKO

-252 HP Lugia

255 Atk vs 344 Def & 416 HP (120 Base Power): 186 - 219 (44.71% - 52.64%) 2HKO after SR

-252 HP/216 SDef Careful Jirachi

255 Atk vs 318 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 402 - 474 (99.50% - 117.33%) Lol.

-252 HP/160 Sp. Def Mewtwo
255 Atk vs 256 Def & 416 HP (120 Base Power): 250 - 295 (60.10% - 70.91%) 2HKO but look out for Pressure Stall + Light Screen…

Stone Edge

-252 HP Lugia
307 Atk vs 296 Def & 416 HP (100 Base Power): 194 - 230 (46.63% - 55.29%) 2HKO after SR

-224 HP Ho-Oh
307 Atk vs 216 Def & 409 HP (100 Base Power): 532 - 628 (130.07% - 153.55%) You can probably guess Ho-Oh’s fate…

-Min/Min Rayquaza

307 Atk vs 216 Def & 351 HP (100 Base Power): 266 - 314 (75.78% - 89.46%) OHKO after SR

U-turn


-252 HP Mewtwo

307 Atk vs 216 Def & 416 HP (70 Base Power): 186 - 220 (44.71% - 52.88%) 2HKO after SR

-112 HP Latias

307 Atk vs 216 Def & 329 HP (70 Base Power): 186 - 220 (56.53% - 66.87%) 2HKO

-Min/Min Latios
307 Atk vs 216 Def & 301 HP (70 Base Power): 186 - 220 (61.79% - 73.09%) 2HKO

SETS IN TESTING

CHOICE BAND


Infernape (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk/6 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch / Flare Blitz

I’m still doing testing on this. It’s like the previous set except more powerful, but without the ability to switch attacks. I’m not sure about this one yet since it doesn’t really grab any new KOes that the other set fails to do…but it does seem to work well.

STATUS:FAILED

SWORDS DANCE

Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4HP/252 Atk/252SPD
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Shadow Claw
- Stone Edge

Monstrous once it sets up, just use Wobb or come in on a choice resisted attack or something like a Blissey, set up, and own. Close Combat owns anything not resisting it, Shadow Claw 2HKOes both Giratina and Giratina-O after a boost as well as OHKOing Latias, Latios, and most Mewtwo. Stone Edge OHKOes Lugia after SR as well as always OHKOing Rayquaza and Ho-Oh.

This set has issues with Scarfers, Latios, some Mewtwo, and really defensive Groudons. Scarfers are handled easily by Wobb, Scizor is a great Latios/Mewtwo killer, and Mixed Rayquaza makes a great lure for Groudon.

Damage Calcs: (Kudos to ZetoTarken ^_^)
+2 Close Combat 248/min Ho-oh: 57.4% - 67.8 (OHKO with SR)
+2 Close Combat Adamant 252/32 Groudon: 78.7% - 92.8%
+2 Close Combat 252HP Kyogre: 117.6% - 138.9
+2 Close Combat 252/252Bold Kyogre: 83.4% - 98.3 (66% Chance of 1HKO with SR)
+2 Close Combat min/min Palkia: 135.4% - 159.6%
+2 Close Combat min/min Garchomp: 126.8% - 149.4%
+2 Close Combat min/min Rayquaza: 67.5% - 79.8(Possible 1HKO with SR, guaranteed with SR and a turn of LO Recoil

+2 Shadow Claw 252/4 Latias: 101.6% - 119.8
+2 Shadow Claw 200/48 Giratina-O: 65.9%-77.8%
+2 Shadow Claw 248/248Bold Giratina: 42.9%-50.8%
+2 Shadow Claw 252/64 Lugia: 62.0% - 73.1%

+2 Stone Edge 252/64 Lugia: 88.5% - 104.3%

Ape is barely able to survive priority from Deoxys-A and Ray without a prior defense drop or a few turns of LO damage, killing both with Shadow Claw and Close Combat respectively(With SR and Ray's LO Recoil). Scizor is beaten by a +2 Close Combat.
252 Adamant LO Deoxys-A Extremespeed to -0 Def: 71.8% - 84.7%
252 Adamant LO Ray Extremespeed to -0 Def: 62.6% - 73.8%
252 Adamant CB Scizor Bullet Punch to -1 Def: 36.7% - 43.2%

-Notable Infernape Partners


-Wobbuffet-
Gets rid of Scarfers.

-Scizor-
Takes care of Lati@s and Mewtwo, also checks HP Fire less Giratina-O.

-Latias- Resists Infernape’s weakness bar Flying, counters Kyogre, Giratina, and Lugia.

-Dialga- Resists Infernape’s weaknesses bar Ground, beats Giratina and checks Giratina-O.

-Darkrai, Mewtwo-
Infernape weakens their counters and both of them can stop Giratina and Lugia well.

-Groudon-
Provides sunlight for Infernape, SubSD variants can lure in and beat Giratina.

-Counters

-Giratina is the best one, as it resists both of Infernape’s STABS and beats it down with Dragon Claw. Giratina-O works in the same fashion.

-Lati@s also resist both STABS and can KO with Dragon Pulse. They need Max Speed though or Infernape’s U-turn will kill them.

-Physically Bulky Kyogre can beat Infernape, but most can be 2HKOed by Life Orb/Choice Band Close Combat after Stealth Rock.

-Ho-oh beats any Infernape without Stone Edge.

-Most Scarfers, such as Garchomp, Dialga, and Palkia can check Infernape, though none of them will want to eat a Close Combat. (Or worse, Infernape can U-turn to Wobbuffet as they switch in.)

-Rayquaza will OHKO Infernape with Extremespeed after SR + one defense drop from Close Combat.

-Sample Team

Here is a sample team for those who want to use Infernape, but do not know where to get started:

Dialga @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 6 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Stealth Rock
- Outrage
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
---
Wobbuffet (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 28 HP/230 Def/252 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Safeguard
---
Scizor (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 176 HP/100 Atk/234 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Pursuit
- Roost
---
Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover
---
Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk/212 Spd/46 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
---
Darkrai @ Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 6 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Void
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast



-Conclusion

I hope that this thread has encouraged you to use this underrated threat as Infernape can literally devastate teams with the right support. Feel free to discuss viable movesets and future trends in this thread.
 
#2
Not to poke a hole in your thread, but Mewtwo has higher stats all around, and arguably a better movepool. The only advantages Infernape has over Mewtwo that I can see are:
STAB Fire Blast, and possibly Double STAB with Groudon support
Access to Nasty Plot and Swords Dance

However, the sun is easily neutered by Kyogre, who can switch in on Fire Blast, and the likes of Latias checks Infernape just as well in Ubers as it does in OU (even better actually, due to Soul Dew). Mewtwo, Lati@s, Scarf Palkia can all easily stop an Infernape cold.

To be honest, I don't see any defining advantages Infernape has that are worth having over the likes of Mewtwo or Rayquaza.
 
#3
I'm no expert, but I'm especially doubtful about the lead.
If you want to get stealth rocks up reliably, then deoxys-S or A would seem a superior choice. Even mew would arguably be better because it also has access to SR and uturn, and i think it has substantially more bulk, for coming in later.

Also, it seems to need a lot of team support, namely groudon. groudon is an amazing pokemon, but it would seem to me that pokemon such as kingdra, shiftry, and infernape who absolutely need weather support, drag the team down a little because if their weather partner dies, and there's another one on the other team messing up your beneficial weather, infernape is essentially deadweight.

On that note, if you had a kingdra, the kingdra could take advantage of situations which are disadvantageous to infernape.

Just some htoughts, and i hope they aren't rambling.

EDIT: also, be careful of using wobbuffet to eliminate scarfers; scarfed kyogre's water spout can sometimes KO wobb at full power if there are enough entry hazards, which is especially significant because scarfogre will take out infernape in a second. Unfortunately, i can't come up with the exact numbers off the top of my head.
 
#4
I'm no expert, but I'm especially doubtful about the lead.
If you want to get stealth rocks up reliably, then deoxys-S or A would seem a superior choice. Even mew would arguably be better because it also has access to SR and uturn, and i think it has substantially more bulk, for coming in later.

Also, it seems to need a lot of team support, namely groudon. groudon is an amazing pokemon, but it would seem to me that pokemon such as kingdra, shiftry, and infernape who absolutely need weather support, drag the team down a little because if their weather partner dies, and there's another one on the other team messing up your beneficial weather, infernape is essentially deadweight.

On that note, if you had a kingdra, the kingdra could take advantage of situations which are disadvantageous to infernape.

Just some htoughts, and i hope they aren't rambling.

EDIT: also, be careful of using wobbuffet to eliminate scarfers; scarfed kyogre's water spout can sometimes KO wobb at full power if there are enough entry hazards, which is especially significant because scarfogre will take out infernape in a second. Unfortunately, i can't come up with the exact numbers off the top of my head.
The lead is useful against slower leads, which do exist in ubers, and can actually beat Deoxys with sash, Dialga, Groudon and Kyogre inferring they attack if you sash or thunder wave assuming lum berry. Infernape can easily operate in rain/sand, as both Tyranitar and Kyogre eat close combat, thanks to Infernape's wonderful speed. Wobbuffett is more used to eliminate Palkia, Garchomp, and Dialga. Latias/Palkia can take care of Kyogre easily, especially scarf.
 

Theorymon

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#5
Not to poke a hole in your thread, but Mewtwo has higher stats all around, and arguably a better movepool. The only advantages Infernape has over Mewtwo that I can see are:
STAB Fire Blast, and possibly Double STAB with Groudon support
Access to Nasty Plot and Swords Dance

However, the sun is easily neutered by Kyogre, who can switch in on Fire Blast, and the likes of Latias checks Infernape just as well in Ubers as it does in OU (even better actually, due to Soul Dew). Mewtwo, Lati@s, Scarf Palkia can all easily stop an Infernape cold.

To be honest, I don't see any defining advantages Infernape has that are worth having over the likes of Mewtwo or Rayquaza.
I don't see how Infernape is really that comparable to Mewtwo. Mewtwo has to usually rely on Sefldestruct to beat Blissey on its Life Orb sets, while Infernape can simply OHKO it with Close Combat. Thanks to dealing with Blissey more easily, Infernape is able to fit Stone Edge in its moveset much more easily than Mewtwo, thus Ho-oh wont usally be as much of a problem.

You seemed to have missed a huge selling point Infernape has over Rayquaza; U-turn. Thanks to U-turn, Infernape has a much easier time scouting its counters than other mixed attackers in Ubers.

Kyogre isn't actually nearly as big of a problem as you claim. First of all, Infernape's main reasons for using Fire Blast outside of the obvious stab and blaze bonuses is to 2HKO Groudon, deal a huge amount of damage to Lugia, and destroy steel-types in the sun. Most often times, I felt like I was using Infernape because of Close Combat and U-turn, not because of a powerful Fire Blast. When I used Infernape, the Kyogre that switched in often took a massive amount of damage from Close Combat; to the point where they would die early in the match, and I would gain control of the weather. Palkia also took a massive amount of damage from Close Combat. obviously, Giratina-O, Mewtwo, Latias and Latios are going to be problems if you don't U-turn on the switch, but I felt that these flaws didn't make it unviable in Ubers. Finally, one last thing to note is that while Rayquaza can cause Infernape trouble if it switches into Close Combat, Rayquaza will be unable to switch into another Close Combat if Stealth Rock is up.
 
#6
The problem I have is that if you are using that infernape as a lead you are restricting your team against the number one lead. If you u-turn out, deoxys gets stealth rock (you lose your sash), and you pretty much have to bring in a priority user. You have now revealed 1/3 of your team in exchange to take out a lead who got stealth rock.

If you switch to scizor deoxys extreme speeds and reveals if you have leftovers or choice band. If you switch to rayquaza (i would hope the deoxys user taunts just incase) you burn off life orb damage. Now the deoxys user gets to switch in a faster pokemon who can either a) easily kill rayquaza or b) take a hugh momentum swing by scizor locked in on bullet punch.

I would much rather be down 5-6 with a palkia staring at a scizor locked in on bullet punch with stealth rocks up than in my opponents position.

tl;dr i dont see how these is an effective lead. I feel starmie and Mew both do similiar things to this infernape but do it much better.
 

Fireburn

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#7
How do Mew and Starmie do it better? Starmie still loses to Shadow Ball/Signal Beam Deoxys-S, and Mew beats Deoxys THE EXACT SAME WAY Infernape does. (You do make a point about Ape losing its Sash but it can still do things later!) Lead Mew also needs Explosion to hurt anything, while Ape can easily beat other leads down, such as Groudon and Dialga, with Fire Blast and Close Combat without killing itself.

You also cannot compare Lead Starmie to Infernape anyway; its the same logic in Theorymon's argument about Infernape vs. Mewtwo...they do different things. Starmie also doesn't even get Stealth Rock!)
 

shrang

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#8
A set that could be viable is a SubSalac set, but you'll have to have a horrible amount of support to get it to work effectively.

Infernape @ Salac Berry
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 52 Atk/252 SpA/204 Spe, Edit: IVs: 30HP or 12 HP/40 Atk/252 SpA/204 Spe (Corrected by Quaily)
Nature: Naive
-Substitute
-Nasty Plot
-Fire Blast/Flamethrower
-Close Combat/Edit: Vacuum Wave (Suggested by Quaily)

This set, as I said requires a ridiculous amount of support. Groudon is an absolute must, as it is the double STAB (Triple after Blaze) that makes this set deadly. Sub up against a slower opponent and Nasty Plot. Keep Subbing until you drop down 25% or less, get the Salac Boost and Blaze activated. The Speed EVs provided allow you to outpace ScarfChomp, which is the biggest threat to your sweep (Scarfed Skymin, Darkrai and Mewtwo are omitted for obvious reasons). I'm really not sure what to put for the last move, as boosted Fire Blasts 2HKO Blissey anyway. Close Combat could be used to kill Heatran, I guess, who happens to be the only Poke capable of walling Fire Blast. If you think you have Heatran covered, even Flamethrower can be an option in the last slot, due to Fire Blast's low PP and the ridiculous amount of Pressure users in Ubers. Kyogre MUST be eliminated before attempting this set, otherwise you're wasting an Infernape. When the sun is up, however, +2 SpA and +1 Speed Infernape rampages a team. Here are some Librelldra damage calcs:

+2 Fire Blast (With Blaze activated and Sun shining) vs:
Ho-Oh: 674 Atk vs 344 Def & 409 HP (180 Base Power): 284 - 334 (69.44% - 81.66%)
(OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Blissey: 674 Atk vs 405 Def & 652 HP (180 Base Power): 481 - 567 (73.77% - 86.96%) (2HKO)
Great Wall Impish Giratina: 674 Atk vs 279 Def & 503 HP (180 Base Power): 349 - 411 (69.38% - 81.71%) (2HKO)
Calm Minder Latias: 674 Atk vs 444 Def & 329 HP (180 Base Power): 219 - 258 (66.57% - 78.42%) (2HKO)
Min/Min Palkia: 674 Atk vs 276 Def & 321 HP (180 Base Power): 176 - 208 (54.83% - 64.80%) (2HKO) (This calc pretty much seals the deal)
0/8 Rayquaza with Air Lock factored in: Edit: 674 Atk vs 216 Def & 354 HP (180 Base Power): 301 - 354 (85.03% - 100.00%) (Corrected by Uchiha) (OHKO after Stealth Rock)
200/252 Scizor (For the lulz): 674 Atk vs 259 Def & 331 HP (180 Base Power): 3012 - 3544 (909.97% - 1070.69%)

*Someone check the calcs, I'm pretty sure I've done it correctly, but these calcs DO seem too outrageous to be true*

As you can see, if you can keep the Sun shining and revenge killers (Scarfed Skymin, Darkrai, Mewtwo, Deoxys, priority) off the field, Infernape will absolutely obliterate a team after it sets up. Its Speed, Blaze and Nasty Plot are what sets it apart from other Ubers.
 
#9
I use a subsalac in OU, you want the hp ev to be 12 so it's divisible by 4. I would also use flamethrower because 1 miss and it's over. +2 blaze flamethrowers in the sun is going to OHKO pretty much everything that does not resist it. 2HKOs are useless because you are either not going to get a NP in, or you are only going to get 1 shot at things before they KO infernape at <25%.

Vacuum wave is worth a look since you can still get revenged by priority users.
 
#11
I use a subsalac in OU, you want the hp ev to be 12 so it's divisible by 4. I would also use flamethrower because 1 miss and it's over. +2 blaze flamethrowers in the sun is going to OHKO pretty much everything that does not resist it. 2HKOs are useless because you are either not going to get a NP in, or you are only going to get 1 shot at things before they KO infernape at <25%.

Vacuum wave is worth a look since you can still get revenged by priority users.
Vacuum wave would be useless in my opinion, because everything either resists vacuum wave, takes very little damage, aka Kyogre, or is slower and takes far more damage from other attacks, such as Groudon takes a hell of a lot more damage from fire blast. The only common priority attacks in ubers are extremespeed from Deoxys and Rayquaza, and Scizor's bullet punch. Obviously, Deoxys-A, and Ray resist vacuum wave, and will ohko with extremespeed. Deoxys-A is rarely outside of lead spot anyways. Scizor is roasted to a crisp anyways, and bullet punch does laughable damage, since most Scizor focus on bulk.
 

Jibaku

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#12
I question the viability of the SubSalacNP set. Despite it's incredible power, it has a lot, lot of flaws.

- If it doesn't OHKO something at 25% or if Infernape misses a Fire Blast (which happens more than you'd think), it's going to die unless a Substitute is up. If the opponent is faster than Scarf Infernape, consider Ape dead too
- It has to set up Nasty Plot and Sub, so if a faster opponent comes in such as Scarf Palkia it's not going anywhere. Nasty Plot on the switch and it'll kill you, Sub on the switch and it'll be quite weak when trying to sweep.
- Priority moves - they're common in Ubers

By what's mentioned above, these Pokemon can stop it from sweeping (assuming +2, Blaze, Sun, Salac. No Sub is up). This situation is selected as for instance, Ape gets a Plot boost from Wobba' Encore support or a switch, then Subbing down to Blaze for most power and Salac. But even that situation doesn't happen so easily...
- Scarf Mewtwo (believe me some people use this)
- Ho-oh
- Tyranitar (if you opt for Vacuum Wave for some reason).
- Scizor (CB or Life Orb Bullet Punch will kill a 25% Infernape)
- Blissey (again, without CC)
- Latios, Latias
- Rayquaza (Ape plots on Ray switch, Subs twice as Rayquaza Dragon Claws them, then ExtremeSpeeds for the kill)
- Kyogre (as mentioned)
- Palkia (quad resist to Fire blast means +2 non blaze FB will not 2HKO it, requiring blaze to do so. Palkia won't die to a Blaze +2 FB and will kill you)
- Giratina.
- Giratina-O (though not as bulky as Giratina-A, it won't be OHKOed without a Blaze boost. If Ape tries to go down to Blaze with Subsitute, Giratina-O can simply Shadow Sneak and poof)
- Scarf Shaymin-S and Scarf Darkrai
- Lucario (can't swap in but can easily end sweep with ES, unless Ape has Vacuum Wave)


So it does not rampage a team as you said, despite those impressive calcs. You have to remember the things it has to do beforehand to achieve those calcs.
 

Theorymon

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#13
Note that I have not been able to test CB Infernape yet, but I did some calcs with Flare Blitz in the sun, and found some intriguing results.

Flare Blitz in the sun vs...

252 HP / 252 Def Impish Groudon: 52.72% - 62.38%

252 HP / 64 Def Timid Lugia: 68.51% - 80.77%

252 HP Ho-oh: 49.28% - 58.17% (This calc is really important, you'll see why)

86 HP Giratina-O: 40.69% - 48.05%. around a 60% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. be warned though, the recoil is REALLY going to bite here due to Giratina-O's huge HP

0 HP Hasty Giratina-O: 47.39% - 55.78% a 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

4 HP Garchomp: 54.9% - 64.71%

4HP Latios: 75.08% - 88.7%

112 HP Latias: 64.76% - 76.5%

28 HP / 228 Defense Calm Wobbuffet: 80.3% - 94.51%

While having to rely on the sun to defeat Lugia, and the massive recoil could be a problem, the Ho-oh calc is what I find most intreasting. The main reason Infernape uses Stone Edge is for Ho-oh and Rayquaza (good thing CC and Flare Blizt 2HKO that after SR!). However... since Flare Blitz does a huge amount of damage to Ho-oh switch ins anyways, and the fact that Ho-oh will revenge you if you are locked into anything but Stone Edge, I would like to propose another move to test in place of Stone Edge for CB Infernape, Shadow Claw.

The main reason I want to test Shadow Claw on CB Infernape is because of the damage it does to Giratina-O, which is a huge problem for Infernape. 86 HP Giratina-O takes 42.42% - 50.22% from Shadow Claw, meaning that Infernape has around a 90% chance of 2HKOing it after Stealth Rock. Hasty Giratina-O take 49.43% - 58.5% as well. Although Flare Blitz does 2HKO Giratina-O in the sun, Infernape is left helpless against it in the rain otherwise. Much like U-turn, Shadow Claw will also deal a massive amount of damage to Latios, Latias, and Mewtwo (all of which are 2HKOed). I'm not sure if this is worth losing Stone Edge over, but the chance to screw up Giratina-O (Even in the Rain!) sounds worthy of testing on CB Infernape.

I am planing on testing a Choice Scarf Infernape set if I get the chance to later. Fireburn said that it didnt work too well, so I dont have high hopes. Regardless, I can't resist testing a Scarf on something this fast.
 
#14
Has anyone tried Mach Punch on it (or Vacuum Wave for non-CB sets)? Especially on the lead, it seems like it could be decent for taking out Darkrai. That's all it really seems good for, though, but on the CB set it may do some damage to Scarf Palkia or maybe ScarfChomp.
 
#15
Has anyone tried Mach Punch on it (or Vacuum Wave for non-CB sets)? Especially on the lead, it seems like it could be decent for taking out Darkrai. That's all it really seems good for, though, but on the CB set it may do some damage to Scarf Palkia or maybe ScarfChomp.
CB Mach-Punch v 4/0 Jolly Garchomp
460 Atk vs 226 Def & 358 HP (40 Base Power): 88 - 105 (24.58% - 29.33%)

CB Mach-Punch v 4/0 Timid Palkia
460 Atk vs 236 Def & 322 HP (40 Base Power): 84 - 100 (26.09% - 31.06%)

CB Mach-Punch v 0/0 Hasty Palkia(30 Def IVs)
460 Atk vs 211 Def & 321 HP (40 Base Power): 94 - 112 (29.28% - 34.89%)

The only thing Mach Punch seems to be good for on the Choice Band set is revenging Darkrai, which isn't even a OHKO

CB Mach-Punch v 4/0 Timid Darkrai
460 Atk vs 216 Def & 282 HP (40 Base Power): 186 - 218 (65.96% - 77.30%)
 

Fireburn

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#16
I have decided that CB Ape doesn't work that well. Despite Theorymon's calcs, I find that not too many 2HKOes get pushed into OHKOes, and being locked into one attack restricts Infernape too much.

I am going to retest SD Infernape. I have tested it before, but I am still not sure on what is the best general set, so I think it should be retested. Its rather hard to set up but it can sweep well otherwise IIRC.
 
#17
I have decided that CB Ape doesn't work that well. Despite Theorymon's calcs, I find that not too many 2HKOes get pushed into OHKOes, and being locked into one attack restricts Infernape too much.

I am going to retest SD Infernape. I have tested it before, but I am still not sure on what is the best general set, so I think it should be retested. Its rather hard to set up but it can sweep well otherwise IIRC.
The Swords Dance set I've been using is
Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4HP/252 Atk/252SPD
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Shadow Claw
- Stone Edge

Shadow Claw gives Giratina a run for its money, with a 1.25% chance of 2hko if it comes in on a SD or CC, a 96% chance of 2hkoing if it comes in after a KO, and a guaranteed 2hko with SR and a layer of Spikes down while Giratina can only 2hko you back with Dragon Claw unless you have a defence drop.
It easily 2hkos Giratina-O but Giratina-O 1hkos Ape.

Damage Calcs:
+2 Close Combat 248/min Ho-oh: 57.4% - 67.8 (OHKO with SR)
+2 Close Combat Adamant 252/32 Groudon: 78.7% - 92.8%
+2 Close Combat 252HP Kyogre: 117.6% - 138.9
+2 Close Combat 252/252Bold Kyogre: 83.4% - 98.3 (66% Chance of 1HKO with SR)
+2 Close Combat min/min Palkia: 135.4% - 159.6%
+2 Close Combat min/min Garchomp: 126.8% - 149.4%
+2 Close Combat min/min Rayquaza: 67.5% - 79.8(Possible 1HKO with SR, guaranteed with SR and a turn of LO Recoil

+2 Shadow Claw 252/4 Latias: 101.6% - 119.8
+2 Shadow Claw 200/48 Giratina-O: 65.9%-77.8%
+2 Shadow Claw 248/248Bold Giratina: 42.9%-50.8%
+2 Shadow Claw 252/64 Lugia: 62.0% - 73.1%

+2 Stone Edge 252/64 Lugia: 88.5% - 104.3%

Ape is barely able to survive priority from Deoxys-A and Ray without a prior defense drop or a few turns of LO damage, killing both with Shadow Claw and Close Combat respectively(With SR and Ray's LO Recoil). Scizor is beaten by a +2 Close Combat.
252 Adamant LO Deoxys-A Extremespeed to -0 Def: 71.8% - 84.7%
252 Adamant LO Ray Extremespeed to -0 Def: 62.6% - 73.8%
252 Adamant CB Scizor Bullet Punch to -1 Def: 36.7% - 43.2%

Thanks to Close Combat's sheer power and the coverage gained by Shadow Claw and Stone Edge, +2 Fire Punch doesn't get any notable KOs, even with a weather boost, except for Forretress, who can end your sweep with Earthquake or Explosion but is usually unwilling to go in because the threat of a +2 Fire Punch still looms. Close Combat can take care of any Scizor and Shadow Claw lets you heavily damage both Giratina formes, and 1hkos and Lati@s who don't run max speed. While Stone Edge is primarily used for guarenteeing the KO on Lugia, who can ruin your fun by setting up a reflect or whirlwinding you away, it also 1hko's Ho-ohs without SR and hits any other random flyers that pop up.
 
#18
Alright, Theorymon wanted me to post my own lead Infernape set, so I will.

Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 32 Atk/224 Spd/252 SAtk
Rash nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Fake Out
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- Vacuum Wave

Might seem strange, but it works well. Overheat KOs most Groudon, surprisingly most of them stay in as they don't expect to be Koed. Against either Deoxys, you have a slight predicament. They might X-Speed first turn, expecting your fake out. In this case, Deoxys-S can either SR next turn and get Koed by Overheat, or X-Speed again and hope you die by recoil. If Deoxys-A X-Speeds first turn, you're screwed. If not, vacuum wave WILL Ko after a Fake Out, but if you want to use Mach Punch (more damage to Kyogre, etc) you will need to move some SAtk into Atk. However, this lowers the chance you will KO lead Groudon, so you must be careful.

Against Darkrai, you can't KO with Fake Out + Vacuum Wave but you knock it under 30%. If you get it to waste a sleep against you that's good. After two LO recoils, Timid 252 fails to KO Infernape with Focus Blast (Modest 252 Darkrai has about a 50% chance to KO, not factoring accuracy).

Kyogre is the worst lead to face, with Dialga and Skymin also being trouble some. Kyogre for obvious reasons. Close Combat does not KO Dialga, and Skymin outspeeds.

This is worth using over Sash Lead Ape if you do not want SR. Not only does it provide surprising offense early game, but it also can come in late game and revenge quite a few things.

Mach punch is the only other move worth considering really, as Grass Knot will not KO Groudon or Kyogre. CC does around about 48-55% to 252/0 Kyogre. Overheat 100% KOes all Groudon up to 252/100, so basically any Lead Groudon should fall.
 

Fireburn

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#19
I know this has been dead for a while, but after testing SD Ape for a while, using ZetoTarken's set, it has worked quite well. It can easily sweep once it sets up, and it can punch holes into teams even if it does not set up.

Anyone else have more ideas for sets?
 
#20
I'm not sure how would you all respond, but no, this isn't the same question as I asked before; if people start using Fighting-type Pokemon such as Heracross and Infernape on Ubers, or even Toxicroak and Gengar, how come there is no use for, say, Psycho Boost Deoxys-S to revenge-kill Infernape?
 
#21
I'm not sure how would you all respond, but no, this isn't the same question as I asked before; if people start using Fighting-type Pokemon such as Heracross and Infernape on Ubers, or even Toxicroak and Gengar, how come there is no use for, say, Psycho Boost Deoxys-S to revenge-kill Infernape?
Because if your team's weakness is obscure and threatening enough that you need a psychic type attack then you probably have another big hole to be patching up.
 
#22
So why use Infernape in Ubers at all? Is it even used in Ubers?
---
As much as I battled Ubers, I find Fire pretty medicore in that tier; the presence of Rain, the overload of Water and Dragon-types, and the fact that the most used Steel-type, Dialga, is neutral to Fire; this makes me question Infernape in Ubers from the first place...
 

supermarth64

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#23
So why use Infernape in Ubers at all?
Read my post.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2607659&postcount=23
Is it even used in Ubers?
Use the usage stats.
As much as I battled Ubers, I find Fire pretty medicore in that tier; the presence of Rain, the overload of Water and Dragon-types, and the fact that the most used Steel-type, Dialga, is neutral to Fire; this makes me question Infernape in Ubers from the first place...
Use Groudon. That's also why Infernape has STAB Close Combat.
 

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