Lapras (Revamp) (QC 0/3)

sirndpt

sirndpt

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Taking this through QC again, as requested by Oglemi.

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I only explained the more necessary ones, rest assured that the obvious ones—say, waterfall for STAB etc—are all explained in the writeup

[Overview]
  • Hydration + Rest
  • pluses: boosting moves (Curse, Dragon Dance) and support movepool (Perish Song and Toxic)
  • cons: weak to SR, weak to Fighting-types, low Speed, other weather inducers


[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Rest
item: Leftovers
ability: Hydration
nature: Jolly
evs: 120 Atk / 152 SpD / 236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
  • a more defensive spread, Leftovers, and Toxic is a better way to set this Lapras apart from Gyarados and to truly take use of the HydraRest set
  • SpD EVs to tank hits like Seed Flare from Shaymin and Focus Blast from Gengar, has a good chance to stall out SubDisable Gengar's Focus Blast even after a special defense drop. At full-health, it can even survive a Modest LO Focus Blast from Hydreigon and Reuniclus and STAB Focus Blast from Virzion (w/o LO)
  • Combine this with Toxic and Lapras can even stall out the likes of Jellicent and Quagsire.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
  • Lapras really should have enough Speed to outrun up to Tornadus, as it can kill many mons within base Speed 101 - 111 that the set on-site misses out on. Even without LO or full attack investment, Lapras OHKOs Mienshao, max HP Heatran, Tornadus (after Rocks), Terrakion, Gengar, and Landorus with +1 Waterfall in the Rain. +1 Waterfall still 2HKOs Scizor and Tyranitar (outside of Rain).
  • offensive LO set: a +1 Waterfall from the offensive spread can finish off Scizor after Rocks and has a good chance of scoring a 2HKO on Skarmory.

[SET]
name: Curse
move 1: Curse
move 2: Rest
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Toxic / Ice Shard
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
ability: Hydration
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
  • Toxic to beat Quagsire, Rotom-W, Jellicent
  • Ice Shard for um

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
  • Return to hit Rotom-W and Gyarados
  • Bulldoze to hit Empoleon and Tentacruel
  • Avalanche

  • Drizzle Politoed
  • Ferrothorn for entry hazards
  • Tentacruel and Forretress for Toxic Spikes
  • bulky Ghosts like Cofagrigus and Dusclops

[Other Options]
  • Choice sets
  • hail team aaaand Blizzspam
  • Frost Breath
  • Sing
  • parafusion
  • Toxic stalling set
  • Perish Trapper

[Checks and Counters]
  • Jellicent
  • Ferrothorn
  • Quagsire
  • Taunt users, especially Whimsicott
  • Fighting-types, especially Conkeldurr

[SET]
name: LapDance (Dragon Dance)
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Return / Ice Shard
move 4: Rest
item: Life Orb
ability: Hydration
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 80 SpD / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
  • moves are straightforward
  • Ice Shard to beat Landorus - Scarf variants outspeed +2 Lapras

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
  • Jolly and given EVs outspeed all base 100 foes
  • Adamant to outspeed neutral natured base 100s
  • optional spread: Jolly and 192 to outrun Scarf Rotom-A at +2 (Return from Jolly Life Orb Lapras does 84.6% - 100% to Scarf Rotom-W)

  • teammates include Drizzle Politoed
  • dual screens: Latias, Reuniclus, Cresselia tank Fighting-type attacks
  • bulky Ghost-types eg. Spiritomb / Cofagrigus
  • Toxic Spikes: Tentacruel / Forretress

[Overview]

<p>Back in DPP, Lapras was one among many bulky Water-types populating the lower tiers. BW, however, granted Lapras two godsends that boosted its potential dramatically: Hydration and Drizzle Politoed. Coupled with Rest, unlimited rain, and its natural bulk, Lapras's Dream World ability, Hydration, allows it to hold its own in a metagame filled with heavy hitters. Lapras can also use a 100% accurate Thunder under the rain to damage other bulky Water-types, or boost up with Curse or Dragon Dance, safely Rest up thanks to Hydration, and attempt a sweep. Furthermore, Lapras has a great support movepool, including the moves Perish Song and Toxic, which can allow it to force switches or effectively stall out opponents.</p>

<p>Though Lapras is a versatile Pokemon with many strengths, it is not without its flaws. Not only did it miss out on the fantastic Shell Smash, its Ice typing also leaves it weak to Stealth Rock. Lapras falls prey to the many new Fighting-types lurking around OU as well, and is weak to the common priority moves Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch. Lapras's low base 60 Speed also handicaps it severely as a sweeper. Finally, the most significant problem for Lapras is perhaps the popularity of the other weather inducers in OU, all of whom ruin Hydration. Despite its drawbacks, Lapras functions excellently alongside Politoed and is a great, underrated choice for any rain team.</p>

[SET]
name: LapDance (Dragon Dance)
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Return / Ice Shard
move 4: Rest
item: Life Orb
ability: Hydration
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 80 SpD / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Though it missed out on Shell Smash, Lapras still retains a reasonable boosting move in Dragon Dance. The point of this set is to send Lapras out against a foe who doesn't threaten it, nab a couple of boosts, Rest if necessary, and proceed to sweep. Waterfall is Lapras's main Water-type STAB move, and after a Dragon Dance and a rain boost, it can deal a lot of damage. Return hits foes who resist Waterfall, such as Gyarados and Rotom-W, and has excellent neutral coverage alongside Waterfall. As an alternative, Ice Shard provides Lapras with an Ice-type STAB move, as well as a way to hit faster Pokemon, particularly Landorus, as Choice Scarf variants outspeed even +2 Lapras. Rest is a must for this set, as it grants Lapras the ability to recover all of its health before attempting to sweep.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The choice of nature depends on what you want Lapras to outspeed. With Jolly and the given EVs, Lapras can outspeed all positive-natured base 100 Speed foes after a single boost. However, Adamant gives it the ability to hit harder, while still outrunning neutral-natured base 100s. Life Orb and 252 Attack EVs let Lapras hit as hard as possible; the remaining EVs are placed in Special Defense so Lapras can more easily take hits aimed at its better defense.</p>

<p>Lapras can forgo Rest for the second attacking move in slot three, as Hydration will still rid it of paralysis, burn, and poison. However, Rest is definitely the better choice, as the instant recovery is too good for even an offensive set to forgo. Bulldoze can be used for a neutral hit on Jellicent, who otherwise walls Lapras. Even in the rain, the move is also Lapras's strongest option against Toxicroak, Tentacruel, and Magnezone, and the Speed drop can force switches. Body Slam is an option over Return due to its chance of paralysis, but Lapras will outspeed most opponents after a few Dragon Dances anyway. Substitute allows Lapras to guarantee a Dragon Dance boost on a predicted switch, but it will have to sacrifice either Rest or an attacking move, which it cannot afford to do. In terms of alternative EV spreads, 220 Speed EVs and a Jolly nature let Lapras outspeed threatening base 108 Speed foes, namely Infernape and the muskeeter trio, while maximizing Speed altogether enables it to outrun Tornadus, Latias, Latios, and Gengar.</p>

<p>As far as teammates go, Drizzle Politoed is an absolute must, as the infinite rain keeps Hydration in effect. Ferrothorn is another great partner for Lapras, as the entry hazard support means Lapras will have an easier time picking off weaker foes. A dual screens user will also benefit Lapras, as the temporary increase in bulk allows it to set up extra Dragon Dances. Good candidates for this role include Latias, Reuniclus, and Cresselia, all of whom can come in on Fighting-type attacks aimed at Lapras and safely set up screens thanks to their natural bulk. Fighting-type attacks in general give Lapras a great deal of trouble. To get by this, Lapras could also be paired with a bulky Ghost-type, such as Spiritomb or Cofagrigus, who can easily switch in on Fighting-type attacks Lapras might lure and use Will-O-Wisp to cripple the foe.</p>

<p>Toxic Spikes support is also greatly appreciated by this set, as it allows Lapras to stall out the likes of Jellicent and Unaware Quagsire, both of whom can otherwise easily wall Lapras. Tentacruel is a good candidate, as it also benefits from the rain thanks to Rain Dish, and can come in on Fighting-type attacks aimed at Lapras. However, as Tentacruel shares a weakness with Lapras, Forretress is another option, as it shares nice type synergy with Lapras and can set up both Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock, and is also able to Rapid Spin away entry hazards set up by the opponent.</p>

[SET]
name: Curse
move 1: Curse
move 2: Rest
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Toxic / Ice Shard
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
ability: Hydration
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Unlike the Dragon Dance sweeper, this Lapras sacrifices Speed to boost both its Attack and Defense stats. Both Curse and Rest are pretty self-explanatory, and the execution of the set is again relatively straightforward: find a good opportunity to set up, gain a few boosts, and Rest before attempting a sweep. The latter is also very crucial for Lapras's survivability, as it becomes an immense pain to take out once it has a few Curse boosts. Waterfall remains Lapras's best STAB choice, as it packs quite a punch in rain. Toxic is the best option for slot four, as it lets Lapras beat the likes of Quagsire, Rotom-W, and Jellicent. However, if having only one attacking move does not appeal to you, Ice Shard is an alternative, as it gives Lapras an Ice-type STAB move, as well as priority to bypass Curse's Speed drops.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Leftovers is generally the better item if Lapras is only running Waterfall, as the rain boost means Lapras can afford not to run a Life Orb. However, if you're using both Waterfall and Ice Shard and feel that Rest is all the recovery you need, Life Orb can be used for a boost in power. The EVs given maximize Lapras's special bulk so it can take both physical and special hits once it has obtained a few Curse boosts. Because of its poor physical movepool, Lapras does not have much else to consider. Return can be used to hit Rotom-W and Gyarados, both of whom resist Waterfall, and Bulldoze to hit Empoleon and Tentacruel, but these moves find little other use. Avalanche is an interesting alternative Ice STAB; it benefits from Curse's Speed drops, and can be devastating at full power.</p>

<p>As with all Lapras sets, Drizzle Politoed is the most important teammate, as the unlimited rain support means Lapras can abuse Hydration + Rest to the fullest extent. Ferrothorn, once again, also makes a good partner for Lapras, as the entry hazard support gives Lapras an easier time sweeping. If running Ice Shard in slot four, Toxic Spikes support is crucial for beating Quagsire and Jellicent. Tentacruel and Forretress make good choices, with the former benefiting from the rain and the latter sharing nice type synergy with Lapras. A bulky Ghost-type, such as Cofagrigus or Dusclops, can help Lapras deal with Fighting-type opponents, as the two can come in on any Fighting-type moves Lapras attracts and cripple the foe with Will-O-Wisp. As always, weather changers are also a massive problem, as they easily nullify Lapras's Hydration + Rest strategy. However, they must beware when switching in, as a predicted Waterfall can KO Tyranitar and Ninetales, while Hippowdon and Abomasnow do not like being inflicted with Toxic.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Lapras has a rather vast movepool, so the options it can utilize are not limited. With Outrage, Zen Headbutt, Iron Head, Return, Thunderbolt, Psychic, and Dragon Pulse complementing its STAB attacks, Lapras has just enough moves to fill both physical and special Choice sets. Thunder can be used as well, as it receives 100% accuracy in rain—which in the first place Lapras should always be provided with. Lapras can be used on a hail team to abuse a 100% accurate Blizzard, but there are better users of Blizzspam, and Hydration is far superior. Frost Breath, which always critical hits, can enable specially based Lapras to combat Calm Mind users, but its use is niche. Sing is a way in which Lapras can provide sleep support; however, the 55% accuracy makes it not worth a moveslot. Lapras can also use Thunder, Confuse Ray, and Waterfall to pull off a parafusion set, but Lanturn generally does this better. Thanks to instant recovery in the form of Rest, Lapras can run a Toxic stalling set with Substitute, Toxic, Rest, and either Surf or Ice Beam; however, its bulk lets it down in this respect. Similarly, Lapras can attempt a Perish Trapper set with a Grip Claw and the moves Perish Song, Whirlpool, Rest, and a STAB attack to pick off troublesome foes.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>When countering Lapras, Jellicent is the first Pokemon that should come to mind. Thanks to its typing and Water Absorb, it is immune to both Waterfall and Return and resists Ice Shard, and can stall out variants who do not carry Toxic. Ferrothorn is another great counter, as it resists Lapras's Water-type STAB and can use Lapras as setup fodder. However, Ferrothorn must be wary, as a rain-boosted +6 Waterfall can take a huge chunk out of it. Unaware Quagsire can also wall Lapras, as it ignores all Lapras's boosts, can chip away at it with Earthquake, and has reliable recovery of its own to boot. However, Quagsire must be wary when facing the Curse set, as Lapras can easily stall out Quagsire with Toxic. Preventing Lapras from initially setting up is always a good thing to do, as you needn't fear the consequences later. Whimsicott does a fine job of this, as it can easily Taunt either set thanks to Prankster, and then use Leech Seed.</p>

<p>In general, Fighting-types give Lapras a tough time, since they can easily threaten it before or after it sets up. Conkeldurr deserves a special mention, as it can bypass the Dragon Dance variant's Speed boosts with a STAB super effective Mach Punch. Conkeldurr also does not mind taking a Toxic from the Curse set due to Guts, and can retaliate with Drain Punch.</p>
 
So sorry for not commenting on this earlier. I can't give any solid judgement on this because I haven't played with it. But yeah, the speedier spread in the AC can stay. As for it being the main spread, I'm unfounded.

Just change the nature from Timid to Jolly (lol), and my reasoning for it to stay is because after +2, Return from Jolly Life Orb Lapras does 84.6% - 100% to Scarf Rotom-W, the chance of a KO being even more solidified by Stealth Rock. Outrunning ScarfTom is a pretty darned big deal if Lapras doesn't want to be tricked. Others can argue that Lapras can recover off the Scarf Volt Switch and acquire another Dragon Dance boost, so I'll talk this over. Thanks for the update.

EDIT: Also, I'd appreciate it if you made the skeleton visible and not the whole analysis on-site so the changes are evident.
 
Hmm okay, so I've been messing around with DD Lapras after I came upon this old RMT thread for some inspiration. I've been following shrang's response on this thread and boy did it work wonders. Those SpD EVs allowed me to tank hits like Seed Flare from Shaymin and Focus Blast from Gengar, it's impressive. Combine this with Toxic and Lapras can even stall out the likes of Jellicent and Quagsire. I think a more defensive spread, Leftovers, and Toxic is a better way to set this Lapras apart from Gyarados and to truly take use of the HydraRest set.

I haven't tried the LO set on-site, though, so I can't say scrap it. A +1 Waterfall from the offensive spread can finish off Scizor after Rocks and has a good chance of scoring a 2HKO on Skarmory. The power difference is clearly there. However, the defensive DD set definitely works, and it should probably deserve its own set, if not replace the current LapDance:

name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Rest
item: Leftovers
ability: Hydration
nature: Jolly
evs: 120 Atk / 152 SpD / 236 Spe

Lapras really should have enough Speed to outrun up to Tornadus, as it can kill many mons within base Speed 101 - 111 that the set on-site misses out on. Even without LO or full attack investment, Lapras OHKOs Mienshao, max HP Heatran, Tornadus (after Rocks), Terrakion, Gengar, and Landorus with +1 Waterfall in the Rain. +1 Waterfall still 2HKOs Scizor and Tyranitar (outside of Rain).

I invested slightly more SpD EVs than what shrang recommended, since his was based on a very old threat (Specs Kingdra). With the proposed spread, Lapras has a good chance to stall out SubDisable Gengar's Focus Blast even after a special defense drop! At full-health, it can even survive a Modest LO Focus Blast from Hydreigon and Reuniclus and STAB Focus Blast from Virzion (w/o LO).
 
I know this is a pretty old thread, but in case this does start going through QC, I have a few suggestions. I would slash Avalanche and Return over Toxic since teams it's on may have other Toxic/Toxic Spikes users. Avalanche may seem a little odd, but since this is a bulky DD set, it can be useful against mons that can't do too much damage.

EDIT: I meant put Avalanche into AC, sorry.
 
Too many things wrong with Lapras in this meta. Tyranitar shits all over it, Rotom-W destroys it, Jirachi is Jirachi, Magnezone, Etc. There's a LOT of stuff in the meta that will just straight annihilate it. The curse set is an especially notable liability as with Toxic it is the world's biggest SubNite setup fodder. Lapras should leave the OU Water/Ice thing to Cloyster and stick to lower tiers (which it might not even be good in!).

QC REJECTED (1/3)
 
You got it wrong - SDS; SubDDNite is set-up fodder for Curse Lap.

Lapras is surprisingly bulky, it can be EVed such that CB Close Combat from Terrakion fails to OHKO Lapras after a Curse boost. In terms of bulk, Lapras is superior than Vaporeon. With Hydra-Rest it can set up and Toxic-stall many things. If Lapras were to shine, it would most likely be in OU, where there's permanent Rain to provide it the perfect recovery move.
 
Yeah I find it pretty funny that SDS missed that Curse Lapras will always beat SubDDNite barring crits. Maybe he meant the rain abuse set with SubRoost, Thunder and Hurricane? That said I'm not a big fan of the curse set, defensive DD though I've seen work wonders.

Definitely worth mentioning how good a teammate Tentacruel is. It really appreciates Toxic Spikes against weather inducers so that its Rest isn't a liability, plus lots of its better counters are crippled by them. Tenta of course also gets rid of the hazards which completely rape Lapras.
 
I do not like working on "barring crits" around here.

Also, Lapras cannot break Dragonite's Substitutes without a Critical Hit, and can't even 2HKO it, so Dragonite has forever to get that crit. Additionally, Dragonite only needs to get to +3 before it OHKOs Lapras with a critical hit. There are a number of things that Lapras does- beating Dragonite is not one of them. It only takes 11 Dragon Claws to have a 50% chance of Crit, and after the full 24, goes up to about 80%. Those are not good odds.

Also Rest, the perfect recovery move? With Tyranitar usage so high, I highly doubt it.

Also... there's a non-insignificant chance for CB Scizor to OHKO +1 Lapras (around 30% with SR and lefties, and 100% with SR and Spikes). +1 Lapras gets unquestionably OHKOed by CB Terrakion, and 50% of the time if it puts ALL of its EVs into physical defense, which makes it ass. Additionally, Terrakion sees a lot of use alongside Tyranitar, making it worse. Ferrothorn with 0 Attack investment will always OHKO 252 HP Lapras with a CH Power Whip, and it's glad to stall it out with Leech Seed while throwing down all the hazards forever. Lapras can tank Thunderbolts, but it's once again playing the "i am just trying not to get crit" card. On top of that, don't even ask about Charge Beam causing problems. Conkeldurr is not friendly to it either, etc.

Lapras is a Pokemon that has to basically play the "set up and pray i dont get crit" game with everything at all times. That is not a good game.
 
Lapras is really bad. Both of Lapras' sets are awful for the current metagame; they don't really do anything. It ends up being really easy to counter too, regardless of how many boosts it has accumulated.

I can't let it pass, sorry.

QC REJECTED (2/3)
 
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