Latias [1/2] (written up) + Mega Latias [1/2] (writing) - see post #2

lyd

the choices we face
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
[OVERVIEW]

Tailwind is an excellent form of Speed control and Latias sets itself apart thanks to its wonderful typing helping it out with prominent DOU Pokemon such as Kartana, Mega Charizard Y, Landorus-T, and Zapdos. Heal Pulse and Ally Switch are also great support moves that can make Latias’s allies really shine. However, even with a Z-move to help it out, Latias can be overly passive at times. Latias is also pretty vulnerable to some big names in DOU—namely Incineroar, Mega Metagross, Genesect, and Trick Room—and really can’t do much to punish those.

[SET]
name: Tailwind Support
move 1: Psychic
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Tailwind
move 4: Heal Pulse / Ally Switch
item: Psychium Z
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 84 HP / 172 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Psychic hits plenty of the metagame neutrally and is, thus, the preferred STAB move, hitting miscellaneous Pokémon it checks mostly all across the board, especially when powered up into a Shattered Psyche. Ice Beam is quite important for the matchup against Kartana, Landorus-T, and Zygarde. Icy Wind is an option over Ice Beam for yet another form of Speed control that behaves differently to that of Tailwind, but the added power of Ice Beam is valuable, especially for the likes of Kartana and Mega Salamence. Tailwind is one of Latias’s main selling points, and provides invaluable support. The choice between Heal Pulse and Ally Switch mostly comes down to team composition. The former can help allies like Tapu Fini or Landorus-T get some health back whereas the latter gives offensive teammates like Kartana get opportunities to attack or set up a Substitute.

Set Details
========

Psychium Z remedies part of Latias’s passivity and makes it more immediate of a threat to the Pokémon it’s supposed to take care of. Wiki Berry is also a good item choice alongside an EV spread of 216 HP / 80 Def / 76 SpA / 136 Spe with a Timid nature. This set has enough Speed for Kyurem-B, can OHKO uninvested Mega Salamence with Ice Beam and tanks a Draco Meteor from Modest Kingdra at full. The remainder of EVs are invested on Defense for a better Kartana matchup. Levitate is its only ability, but it notably makes Latias immune to Landorus-T’s Tectonic Rage. The EV spread lets Latias KO bulky Landorus-T lacking Yache Berry with Ice Beam. Full Speed investment is important alongiside a Timid nature to outrun Kartana. But if Kartana isn’t too much of an issue to your team, 136 Speed EVs can be used instead to outrun Hasty Kyurem-B. The rest of the EVs are pooled into HP for added bulk.

Usage Tips
========

Latias’s main intent is to set up Tailwind to support its allies, thus, unless you’re paired against a Trick Room team or damage is preferred over Speed control, Latias should go for Tailwind as soon as it can in most scenarios. Heal Pulse or Ally Switch should also be used for supportive means, but more often than not, Tailwind is the top priority. Latias can often switch into powerful offensive behemoths such as Kartana and Mega Charizard Y courtesy of its typing, so take full advantage of these situations to bring Latias in. However, whenever Latias is on field you should be mindful of threats like Incineroar or Mega Metagross, and try to keep an ally capable of punishing the aforementioned whenever Latias is on field. Latias’s Z-move should be used to make up for its passiveness, for an immediate hit to Pokémon it’s supposed to handle, like Mega Manectric and Mega Charizard Y. If not packing a Z-move try to make it so Latias gets to eat consume Wiki Berry by pivoting it on weaker moves tl get it to 25% if it's close to such range.

Team Options
========

Tyranitar is a notable ally, as it tackles Incineroar and appreciates Latias taking care of Kartana and providing Heal Pulse support. Volcanion covers Mega Metagross and appreciates all three of Latias’s support moves, especially Ally Switch on a Stomping Tantrum of the aforementioned Mega Metagross. Incineroar is also notable, providing Fake Out to help Latias set up Tailwind, and taking care of the Steel-types that wall Latias and being capable of pivoting into other teammates to make use of Latias’s Tailwind. Speaking of making use of Tailwind. Hard hitting allies like Kyurem-B and Mega Charizard Y greatly appreciate the added turns, and the same is true for users of spread moves such as Landorus-T, Zygarde, and the aforementioned Tyranitar. Lastly, Trick Room countermeasures like Taunt users, Fake Out users, and Amoongus pair nicely, as Latias is completely helpless against this playstyle.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Helping Hand can bestow teammates with a powerful strike to make up for Latias passiveness. Toxic enables Latias to cripple Chansey, making it so it can't Soft-Boiled stall special attacking allies. Healing Wish is an option to give teammates a second chance once Latias is already low at health.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Dark-types**: Incineroar completely walls Latias and can freely come in whenever Latias is out on the field. Hoopa-U and formes of Tyranitar also don’t mind anything Latias can throw at them.

**Steel-types**: The combo of Psychic and Ice is evidently resisted by Steel-types, thus the likes of Mega Metagross and Genesect really don’t mind Latias and can get ample opportunities to come in if Latias’s ally can’t take care of them.

**Trick Room**: Not only does Latias struggle to do anything to the Trick Room setters: Stakataka, Bronzong, Cresselia, and even Porygon2 to a smaller extent; but it also is completely vulnerable to the speed-inverted condition.

**Taunt**: Latias is extremely vulnerable to this move as it completely shuts down Latias's supportive options and Latias is already very passive so it can't punish it. Users of the move include most notably Tapu Koko, which outspeeds, but also Gothitelle, Scarfty, and Tapu Lele.


[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Name, ID]]
- Quality checked by: [[name, ID], [name, ID]]
- Grammar checked by: [[name, ID], [name, ID]]
 
Last edited:
i suck ass
overview blurb:

Mega Latias is one of the rare set-up sweepers that works in the metagame due to its combination of excellent defensive stats, a high Speed, and decent defensive typing. However, Mega Latias is hindered by the omnipresence of Incineroar and its lack of impressive offensive stats before boosting, making it a somewhat slow threat to get rolling.


[SET]
name: Mega Calm Mind
move 1: Psyshock
move 2: Ice Beam / Dragon Pulse
move 3: Calm Mind
move 4: Recover
item: Latiasite
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 172 HP / 84 SpA / 252 Spe


[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
  • Psyshock is the STAB move of choice, hitting most of the metagame neutrally for decent damage. Psychic is an option for higher base power but Psyshock is preferred to improve the matchup against Chansey and Calm Mind Tapu Fini
  • Ice Beam significantly improves the matchup against Kartana and Ground-types, allowing Mega Latias to act as an effective check to them
  • Dragon Pulse is another option to cover Kyurem-B as well as denting Incineroar, but comes with the significant drawback of being weakened by Misty Terrain
  • The set is centered around Calm Mind, giving Mega Latias a punch as well as improving its bulk
  • Recover is reliable recovery that allows Mega Latias to stay on the field and be healthy throughout the match
Set Details
========
  • Max Speed allows Mega Latias to outspeed Kartana and tie with opposing Mega Metagross
  • The Special Attack investment scores the OHKO on standard Zygarde spreads with the rest dumped into bulk
  • If Dragon Pulse is being used, a spread of 140 HP / 116 SpA / 252 Speed with a Timid Nature can be used to knock out offensive Kyurem-B at +0 after Stealth Rock
  • 252 HP / 36 Def / 84 SpA / 136 Spe with a Timid Nature, while losing the ability to outspeed Kartana, works as a bulkier spread while still being able to outspeed Mega Charizard Y. This avoids the 2HKO from Kartana's Knock Off
  • Levitate is the only choice but allows Latias to avoid most Ground-type moves
Usage Tips
========
  • Mega Latias is generally best brought in at the mid game to set up. Be careful not to underestimate when this can set up and provide pressure. For instance, this can easily set up vs. many defensive Tapu Fini
  • If opposing checks, especially common Dark-types like Incineroar, cannot be dealt with by a partner, it may not be the best time to set up
  • Don’t be afraid to use it as an offensive threat earlier to check pokemon like Zygarde if needed, even if Latias doesn’t set up Calm Mind immediately
Team Options
========

  • Intimidate is a critical support option that allows Mega Latias to more effectively deal with physical attackers.
  • The two main non-Mega Intimidate users, Landorus-T and Incineroar, both work to check bulkier Steel-types such as Mega Metagross and Aegislash
  • Landorus-T can also provide Stealth Rock, a notable team option to wear down common checks like Incineroar and Kyurem-B over the match
  • Incineroar provides Fake Out support to aid Latias in setting up
  • Fightinium Z Kartana is a partner that can provide offensive pressure while Mega Latias sets up while also dealing serious damage to checks such as Calm Mind Tapu Fini and Incineroar
 
Last edited:
Lyd

Overview
  • Only thing here would possibly be to mention that its latias' great typing that gives it such a matchup vs said threats, might be a bit fluffy tho. also i wonder if manectric should be mentioned in this analysis, its able to snarl latias down if it wants (90+% of manes carry snarl) and can really make it do no damage. also able to force mlati to cm for any meaningful damage which means its not attacking.
    • Its the typing that makes it worth using at all over mew, idt heal pulse it worth it over fake out if we are just comparing support mons. make a point of this too
Set
  • I feel like there should be a mention of a pinch berry (+a fatter ev spread to match) somewhere, even if its only under set details or wherever its supposed to go. Teams also appreciate it being a better switchin to the mons its supposed to check than trying to patch up the fact that its weak if its not hitting mons weak to ice/psychic. Im not sure what a spread like that might look like but at the very least mention berry being an option
  • Icy wind is a great choice over ice beam too and definitely warrants a slash (at least a mention) for being able to put down speed control that sticks in the sense that you have to switch out to remove it. sets up tailwind opportunities too and gives you a more spammable move even when you are stuck not being able to do much. able to frustrate stuff like mgross/zap when they have matched your tw
Usage tips
  • Make sure to say that latias' typing lets it switch into a lot of common stuff, so make use of this. its an effective pivot into zard y and kartana moves for example
Team options
  • Mega scizor doesnt really cover mgross, at least not enough to really make it a good partner in that sense for latias. it also means incin is quite a nice switchin and compounding free incin switchins is something you dont want too much of, especially in the case of passive mons/initially weak mons like scizor.
    • if you want something to say here then even volcanion might be better, just for its ability to be ally switched out of stomping tantrums, likes heal pulse A LOT and deals well with incin/likes grounds gone
Other options
  • Helping hand, light screen , toxic for chansey, defog on sr weak teams (this ones not so important)
  • maybe icy wind goes here
  • healing wish is a cool one since it makes latias not a momentum sink in situations and heals something in one turn, going down a mon and losing its defensive utility is not nice tho so use carefully
Checks and counters
  • Maybe something about 'fat mons', stuff like chansey/volcanion cant exactly one shot latias but they quite happily ignore it while it does 30 max per hit, idk the rules on this tho since they arent exactly checks
qsns
  • latias doesnt actually kill kartana in one hit, since a very large number of them invest heavily in spdef, pretty much max. saying outspeeds kart is fine just dont say it ohkos
    • +1 0 SpA Latias-Mega Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 190-224 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • id suggest adding somewhere that 52 spatk guarantees the ohko on the standard 92/0 zygarde, quite a worthwhile calc
    • 52 SpA Latias-Mega Ice Beam vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 380-448 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • kyub is also a real pain for mlati since it doesnt do real damage without 2 boosts and its getting hit by ice beams (or icy winds from the even more annoying av). while many of the checks overlap with answering incin, lando doesnt so id be careful about the wording.
@both sorry if this sounded nitpicky
 

talkingtree

Using headphones to drown out my mind
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a defending Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Doubles Captain
Gonna go ahead and make my own notes on ARay's suggestions and add a few of my own as steps toward QC 1, notes in green. If I don't comment on something he wrote, assume I agree with it.
Lyd

Overview
  • Only thing here would possibly be to mention that its latias' great typing that gives it such a matchup vs said threats, might be a bit fluffy tho. also i wonder if manectric should be mentioned in this analysis, its able to snarl latias down if it wants (90+% of manes carry snarl) and can really make it do no damage. also able to force mlati to cm for any meaningful damage which means its not attacking. Good points, definitely take Manectric out, the below also further gives reason to mention typing
    • Its the typing that makes it worth using at all over mew, idt heal pulse it worth it over fake out if we are just comparing support mons. make a point of this too
Set
  • I feel like there should be a mention of a pinch berry (+a fatter ev spread to match) somewhere, even if its only under set details or wherever its supposed to go. Teams also appreciate it being a better switchin to the mons its supposed to check than trying to patch up the fact that its weak if its not hitting mons weak to ice/psychic. Im not sure what a spread like that might look like but at the very least mention berry being an option. In my notes on Latias I have a Wiki Berry set as well, so definitely do this. The spread I'd recommend is 216 HP / 80 Def / 76 SpA / 136 Spe; Timid. This way, Latias outspeeds Kyu-B, OHKOes uninvested Mega Salamence with Ice Beam, and takes Modest Kingdra Draco Meteor, with a dump in Def
  • Icy wind is a great choice over ice beam too and definitely warrants a slash (at least a mention) for being able to put down speed control that sticks in the sense that you have to switch out to remove it. sets up tailwind opportunities too and gives you a more spammable move even when you are stuck not being able to do much. able to frustrate stuff like mgross/zap when they have matched your tw Icy Wind is a great moves mention, no slash since it hasn't seen widespread use to my knowledge
Usage tips
  • Make sure to say that latias' typing lets it switch into a lot of common stuff, so make use of this. its an effective pivot into zard y and kartana moves for example
Team options
  • Mega scizor doesnt really cover mgross, at least not enough to really make it a good partner in that sense for latias. it also means incin is quite a nice switchin and compounding free incin switchins is something you dont want too much of, especially in the case of passive mons/initially weak mons like scizor.
    • if you want something to say here then even volcanion might be better, just for its ability to be ally switched out of stomping tantrums, likes heal pulse A LOT and deals well with incin/likes grounds gone Agreed, Volcanion's a great mention
Other options
  • Helping hand, light screen , toxic for chansey, defog on sr weak teams (this ones not so important) Helping Hand yes, Toxic maybe, the other two no
  • maybe icy wind goes here No because it's getting a set details mention
  • healing wish is a cool one since it makes latias not a momentum sink in situations and heals something in one turn, going down a mon and losing its defensive utility is not nice tho so use carefully Ehhhh I'm gonna give this one a maybe too
  • I've never seen CM non-Mega Lati, so go ahead and take that off. Order should be HH > Toxic > Healing Wish
Checks and counters
  • Maybe something about 'fat mons', stuff like chansey/volcanion cant exactly one shot latias but they quite happily ignore it while it does 30 max per hit, idk the rules on this tho since they arent exactly checks Leave this off, Latias checks Volcanion if anything and Chansey can't be listed in every Special Attacker's C&C section because it's a fat blob
  • I'd add a Taunt tag, Latias can't do a ton to one of the most common Taunt users (Tapu Lele) and generally values its supporting moves more than its attacks
Generally speaking, solid work on this. Implement all of the above and go ahead and start writeup. QC 1/2

qsns
  • latias doesnt actually kill kartana in one hit, since a very large number of them invest heavily in spdef, pretty much max. saying outspeeds kart is fine just dont say it ohkos
    • +1 0 SpA Latias-Mega Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 190-224 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • id suggest adding somewhere that 52 spatk guarantees the ohko on the standard 92/0 zygarde, quite a worthwhile calc
    • 52 SpA Latias-Mega Ice Beam vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 380-448 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO We already talked a bit about the 84 SpA benchmark for 24/56 Zygarde, which is the one that's EVd to take Lele Moonblast. Not sure where we landed on the standard spread, I'd like 252/252 represented somewhere and 252 HP / 36 Def / 84 SpA / 136+ Spe represented somewhere.
  • kyub is also a real pain for mlati since it doesnt do real damage without 2 boosts and its getting hit by ice beams (or icy winds from the even more annoying av). while many of the checks overlap with answering incin, lando doesnt so id be careful about the wording.
  • Go ahead and add a mini-paragraph of Overview covering Mega Lati only to insert into/below Lyd's above
  • ik this isn't fleshed out, so work on that and I'll take another look
 

talkingtree

Using headphones to drown out my mind
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a defending Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Doubles Captain
woops that's me
  • Make the set Psyshock / Ice Beam or Dragon Pulse / Calm Mind / Recover, I'm trying to standardize set order across analyses
  • [Moves] I'd also add CM Fini as a Psyshock target alongside Chansey
  • [Set Details] No need to mention Latiasite
Honestly the rest of this seems pretty solid, and I trust you to write it up well. QC 1/2 on Mega Latias, both of you write these up when you can!
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top