Latias (Dual Screens) [QC 3/3] (GP 2/2)

Harsha

Harsha

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Taken over from Asterat at QC 1/3

A NOTE TO THE UPLOADER: there's a section in latias's oo that needs to be removed (it's about dual screens)
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Status: Done!
QC Approvals: AccidentalGreed, Pocket, wilson46
GP Approvals: Stalfos, Steven Snype
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380.png

wheeeeee!


[SET]
name: Dual Screens
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Healing Wish
move 4: Dragon Pulse
item: Light Clay
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While Latias is often seen as a sweeper or a defense against VoltTurn, it can pull off a support set surprisingly well due to its great bulk and high Speed. With dual screens, Latias can prepare hyper offense teams for setups and sweeps with ease. Light Screen and Reflect boost not only Latias's defenses, but also its teammates' for eight turns due to Light Clay. Due to its good bulk, Latias can set up dual screens at multiple points in a battle. With its Dragon typing, it resists common Water-, Fire-, Grass-, and Electric-type moves, providing numerous switch-ins.</p>

<p>While it is easy to see why one would use Latias, there is one question that should come to mind: why not use Latios, who has access to Memento and the same Speed, as well as a higher Special Attack? The answer to that is simpler than one would think. Healing Wish provides an excellent asset to offensive teams, especially those that need a cleric. With Healing Wish, one never needs to worry about one's Dragonite rendered useless due to an untimely burn from Jellicent's Scald. Latias can sacrifice itself and allow a sweeper to switch in without taking damage from the opponent's attacks while healing off any unfortunate status that can end a premature sweep. Latias carries Dragon Pulse so that it does not become a sitting duck against Taunt users; it also allows Latias to hit other Dragon-types for super effective damage, a useful asset considering the many Dragon-types that roam the OU metagame.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>While Latias has no Special Attack investment, it still hits hard due to its base 110 Special Attack. The EVs are designed to keep Latias as bulky as possible while maximizing Speed. Speed is an important asset because it allows Latias to get off dual screens quickly; also, it ensures that Latias can pass a Healing Wish against an opponent with less than 110 base Speed, such as Terrakion, Virizion, and Infernape. Besides, Latias has no use for extra power. This brings up another point: one should never opt for Draco Meteor. While the extra power seems appealing, it is not very powerful coming from Latias in the first place, and the drop in Special Attack is really unappealing, considering Latias can become setup fodder after using Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>One can try Hidden Power Fire to hit Scizor and Ferrothorn, but generally speaking, Dragon Pulse is the better option. Other interesting options are Roar and Recover. While Latias can use Roar to phaze away Pokemon that try and set up on it, it can also use Recover to ensure that it sets dual screens up numerous times in a battle. However, these two options leave Latias very open to Taunt, and generally do not help any more than Dragon Pulse. Regardless, if a team is desperate for a phazer or dual screens support, these moves just might do the trick.</p>

<p>Latias requires no support to perform its job, as it is a support Pokemon itself. However, the best beneficiaries of this set include setup sweepers and hard hitters such as Terrakion, Dragonite, Volcarona, and Tornadus. In addition, Latias allows these teammates to run items other than Lum Berry because status is no concern with Healing Wish. If paired with a second dual screen user, Latias can perform its job more effectively, and the team can usually set up another sweep if a first attempted sweep fails. Scizor also makes a good partner because it beats Tyranitar, who annoys this set with Pursuit. One should always pack a reliable way of dealing with Tyranitar and Scizor, as Pursuit can devastate Latias. However, with Healing Wish, Latias can potentially escape the horrors of getting trapped and turn said threats into setup fodder.</p>
 
Why not use Espeon instead? Espeon has Wish too, and can't be taunted but shares the same base speed and lacks that Dragon weakness. The only read advantages Latias has are its Dragon-inclusive resistances and Healing Wish, which is actually a pretty difficult feat to use. For this reason, I'd recommend Wish over Healing Wish and due to the switch in-switch out nature of this set Draco Meteor would be the better option over Dragon Pulse. Two DM's are more powerful than two Pulses, and this set lacks the power to really have staying ability, so factoring this in, you probably won't use more than two offensive attacks.

tl;dr: DM>DPulse; Wish>Healing Wish; Why not Espeon?
 
Basically what Jelly O's said. And how is Latias going to switching in and setting up screens multiple times without recovery? just because latias is bulky, doesnt mean it's going to be living forever. Azelf outclasses this imo, as it gets rocks and taunt.
 
I think this is a decent set. If there is a Latios dual screen set on-site, why not latias which has better bulk and the ability to fully heal a pokemon?

Maybe give Recover a slash in the fourth moveslot?
 
Ok first off your set format should look like this:

[SET]
name: Dual Screens
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Healing Wish / Wish
item: Light Clay
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

You don't need to list the ability since Latias only has Levitate :p. You should also list some teammates. Swords Dance Scizor in particular, since Tyranitar will like to switch into this set. Mentioning Baton Passers wouldn't be a bad idea either.
 
JellyOs said:
Why not use Espeon instead? Espeon has Wish too, and can't be taunted but shares the same base speed and lacks that Dragon weakness. The only read advantages Latias has are its Dragon-inclusive resistances and Healing Wish, which is actually a pretty difficult feat to use. For this reason, I'd recommend Wish over Healing Wish and due to the switch in-switch out nature of this set Draco Meteor would be the better option over Dragon Pulse. Two DM's are more powerful than two Pulses, and this set lacks the power to really have staying ability, so factoring this in, you probably won't use more than two offensive attacks.

tl;dr: DM>DPulse; Wish>Healing Wish; Why not Espeon?
Click to expand...

What?! How the hell is Wish better than Healing Wish? They are completely different things. Espeon is also a lot frailer than Latias, meaning that it can't set up Screens anywhere near as easily. Wish doesn't heal much at all from Latias, since its HP isn't very big. Healing Wish lets you sweep first, and then bring the sweeper back afterwards to finish the job. If you have a 10% Gorebyss or something, you can easily bring it back with Healing Wish and Smashpass again.

Also, Dual Screens Latios plays completely differently to Dual Screens Latias. Healing Wish is huge. Like I said before, there are plenty of things that love a second chance to sweep. Say, you can let you DD Mence Outrage some shit, get crippled then come back in later to finish off the job.
 
I fixed the formatting for you and made it not look like an utter eyesore, please refer to this thread in the future.
 
The problem I see with this set is when to use it. Most screeners for HO teams are leads, starting off the game with full health set up sweepers in tow. There no point in using Healing Wish at the start of the match, as opposed to Memento, which pretty much guarantees you will set up even without screens.

I think for this set to truly have a niche over Latios, it would have to be stressed that it would have to be used as a screener in the middle of the match. It's only at that point in time that you could use Healing Wish to its full effect. But why set up screens again giving your opponents walls a chance to recover if you can continue the assault?
 
@Shrang: I've used Healing Wish on many different Pokemon and there's a flaw with your logic. When you use Healing Wish hazards happen first. That means that your 10% Gorebyss could be KO'd before you get the healing, and I really think that Wish would be better, giving Latias some healing besides Lefties and giving better team support than setting up screens once then dying.
 
ThePillsburyDoughBoy said:
The problem I see with this set is when to use it. Most screeners for HO teams are leads, starting off the game with full health set up sweepers in tow. There no point in using Healing Wish at the start of the match, as opposed to Memento, which pretty much guarantees you will set up even without screens.

I think for this set to truly have a niche over Latios, it would have to be stressed that it would have to be used as a screener in the middle of the match. It's only at that point in time that you could use Healing Wish to its full effect. But why set up screens again giving your opponents walls a chance to recover if you can continue the assault?
Click to expand...

You keep the offensive pressure up so they don't have time to recover of course. Say you've Outraged their Slowbro with your DD Mence to about 30% and your opponent has Slowbro and a Pokemon you can set up a DD on, but they burned you with Scald. You bring in Latias, Healing Wish Mence back to full health, DD up and then finish the job. There are plenty of times where Healing Wish is extremely useful. Latias plays completely differently to Latios since Healing Wish is a completely different move. You use Healing Wish mid-late game, while you usually use Memento sooner.

JellyOs said:
@Shrang: I've used Healing Wish on many different Pokemon and there's a flaw with your logic. When you use Healing Wish hazards happen first. That means that your 10% Gorebyss could be KO'd before you get the healing, and I really think that Wish would be better, giving Latias some healing besides Lefties and giving better team support than setting up screens once then dying.
Click to expand...

I'm quite sure Healing Wish heals you first, then takes in hazards damage. But even if you're right, how is there any flaw in my logic? Let's just replace 10% with 13% so Gorebyss doesn't die to SR. You're just nitpicking and not seeing the big picture. You now have a full health Gorebyss under Dual Screens who can pass off Shell Smash again. It's pretty much game over unless to Pokemon in front of you is like Specs Jolteon or something. About the Wish statement, you're again, completely missing what Latias is doing. Healing Wish is a suicide move. Of course you can come in earlier to set up Dual Screens with Latias if you can afford it, but her purpose is to use Dual Screens and die to bring in your sweeper or Smashpasser, or whatever. Even if you can't get Dual Screens up, you can still bring back your damaged sweeper to full health near the end of the game. Healing Wish is the main move here, not Dual Screens!
 
Shrang, even if Healing Wish was the main move, I really think Latios would do a better job at this with Memento and Screen, or hell even Celebi if you really wanted that Healing Wish feature. And if Healing Wish IS your main move, then I think Celebi would be better due to a larger support movepool and a lack of a Dragon-weakness.
 
Hi! So I wrote a few short paragraphs explaining what to do with Latias and QC and whatnot, but then my computer room decided that it would be a good time to have a two-minute power outage. That pretty much ticked me off, so rather than get into a quote war with Camp Memento (hopefully you won't get into one with me after this. Seriously), I'm going to point out some things in a much more concise manner!

  • It should be obvious that Healing Wish and Memento have their own respective benefits, and Latios obviously has its niche because it turns any Pokemon into absolute setup bait. Healing Wish, like shrang said, is to be used differently so a sweeper can get a second chance. That being said, the team playstyle has to be modified differently since you're trying to get around each sweepers' respective counters.
  • Screens first, Healing Wish last (but not on the same turn). I don't know what some of you are insinuating by establishing when Latias has to appear on the battlefield.
  • Latias is what I'd like to call an "Old Yeller" concept. The battle start well after Latias has done its job, but after everything's gone bad and your soldiers have been crippled, then it's time to take Latias out and do a backyard sacrifice. Tragic, but necessary. Latias's strategy is pretty unique, and it works.
  • U-turn isn't any better on things like Azelf.
  • Celebi? What's that? Let's just say the Dragon-type weakness is the lesser of Latias's concerns because, y'know, dual screeners are universal in their role (meaning they're not really supposed to care outside of a few attacks).
  • People have never heard of Cresselia. Or Recover, for that matter.
  • Shrang knows what he's talking about since he's the author of Latias's Uber analysis, which contains a dual screens set. I also tested this thing out for a couple of days, so I should know.
Whew. Okay. As for the set itself:

  • Do NOT slash Wish with Healing Wish for the same reasons Shrang highlighted (mainly because Wish is an overall horrible option, and Healing Wish is too good to pass up, as demonstrated by Lilligant). Also list Shrang's comments on the in-battle effects of Healing Wish so readers aren't so quick to strike it down.
  • Put the following support options in AC for replacement over Dragon Pulse: Draco Meteor, Safeguard, Wish, Roar, and Recover.
  • Remove the last two points in "Why this deserves to be on-site"
  • Emphasize Latias's typing and bulk.
All this considered,
Fv0Om.gif

QC Approved [1/3]
 
What AccidentalGreed said. Add Tailwind and Thunder Wave as the list of moves that can possibly go over Dragon Pulse (but not usually recommended).
 
It's also probably worth noting that Gen V tweaked Healing Wish so that your sweeper/whatever doesn't have to take a hit to receive the Healing Wish, which makes it much easier to salvage a Pokemon than last gen.
 
Remove the last two points in "Why this deserves to be on-site"
Click to expand...

Asterat, you removed the wrong 2 points. Your mention of Brick Break and Latias being set-up bait under Teammates and Counters were fine. AG wanted you to remove the bullet points about SubCM Latias and flying dragon -_-
  • Remove the blurb about "Recover is a horrible move," b/c that's unnecessary
  • Mention that its dragon-typing allows it to provide useful resistances to Water, Electric, Fire, and Grass-type moves, which Dual Screen Azelf or Espeon lacks.
  • Make sure to expand on the Teammates section, and specify the Sweepers that benefits from Dual Screens
  • Mention pairing Latias with another Dual Screener that can better fend off SR leads and Spikers, such as Azelf or Virizion.
  • Mention on your blurb of HP Fire about how it is not only useful for Scizor / Lucario, but also against Ferrothorn / Skarmory who may try to set up spikes on Latias.

Anyways, plz make these changes so I can approve your analysis.
 
I think some of us don't seem to know how Healing Wish Works?

If Latias outspeeds a Pokemon and uses Healing Wish, then it faints. The opponent's Pokemon then makes its move, but against no target. A support option like a screen will work out, but the attacking move won't do anything. Then, the Pokemon you're healing comes into the field. Its health goes to full and THEN hazard damage comes in. It doesn't take any damage from the opposing Pokemon, and will always live hazards as it takes hazard damage at full health.

Same thing happens if Latias is slower, except that Latias will take a hit before getting the Healing Wish off. The important part is that the healed Pokemon will never get hit coming in.
 
Under Teammates, mention pairing Latias with another Dual Screener that can better fend off Spikers or Sweepers from setting up, such as Dual Screen Azelf or Dual Screen Virizion. They both have fast Taunts to prevent such set-ups.

Do this so I can approve your analysis.
 
can be paired with another dual screener that can better fend off hazard users and setup Sweepers
Click to expand...
Add that bit in bold.

Thanks for doing this, harsha!

QC Approved (2/3)
 
dibs

[SET]
name: Dual Screens
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Healing Wish
move 4: Dragon Pulse
item: Light Clay
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While Latias is often seen as a sweeper or a defense against VoltTurn, it can pull off a support set surprisingly well due to its great bulk and high Speed. With dual screens, Latias can prepare hyper offense teams for setups and sweeps with ease. Light Screen and Reflect boost not only Latias's defenses, but also those of everyits teammate's as wells, for a full eight turns due to Light Clay. Due to its good bulk, Latias can set(space)up dual screens at multiple points in a battle. With its Dragon typing, it resists common Water-, Fire-, Grass-, and Electric-type moves, providing numerous switch-ins.</p>

<p>While it is easy to see why one would use Latias, there is still one question that should come to mind: why not use Latios, who has access to Memento and the same Speed, as well as a higher Special Attack? Well, tThe answer to that is simpler than one would think. Healing Wish provides an excellent asset to offensive teams, especially those in need of a cleric. It would be sad to see one's Dragonite rendered useless due to a burn from Jellicent's Scald, no? With Healing Wish, one never needs to worry about that. Latias can sacrifice itself and allow a sweeper to switch in without taking damage from the opponent's attacks, all while healing off any unfortunate status that can end a premature sweep. Latias also carries Dragon Pulse so that it does not become a sitting duck against Taunt users; it also allows Latias to hit other Dragon-types for super effective damage, a useful asset considering the many Dragon-types that roam the OU metagame.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>While Latias has no Special Attack investment, it still hits as hard as a Pokemon with a base 110 Special Attack. The EVs are designed to keep Latias as bulky as possible while maximizing Speed. Speed is an important asset because it allows Latias to get off dual screens quickly. A; also, it ensures that Latias can pass a Healing Wish against an opponent with less than 110 base Speed, likesuch as Terrakion, Virizion, and Infernape. Besides, Latias has no use for extra power. This brings up another point,: one should never opt for Draco Meteor. While the extra power seems appealing, it is not very powerful coming from Latias in the first place, and the drop in powerSpecial Attack is really unappealing, considering Latias can become setup fodder if Draco Meteor has been usedafter using Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>One can try Hidden Power Fire to hit Scizor and Ferrothorn, but generally speaking, Dragon Pulse is the better option. Other interesting options include Roar and Recover. While Latias can use Roar to phaze away Pokemon that try and set(space)up on it, it can also use Recover to ensure that it sets dual screens up numerous times in a battle. However, these two options leave Latias very open to Taunt, and generally do not help any more than Dragon Pulse. Regardless, if a team is desperate for a phazer or dual screens support, these options may be able to do the trick.</p>

<p>Latias really requires no support to perform its job, as it is a support Pokemon itself. However, the best beneficiaries of this set include setup sweepers and hard hitters likesuch as Terrakion, Dragonite, Volcarona, and Tornadus. In addition, Latias allows for these teammates to run items other than Lum Berry because one does not need to worry about status with Healing Wish available. If paired with a second user of dual screens, Latias can perform its job more effectively, and the team can usually set(space)up another sweep if a first attempted sweep fails. Scizor also makes a good partner because it beats Tyranitar, who can try and annoy this set with Pursuit. One should always pack a reliable way of dealing with Tyranitar and Scizor, as Pursuit can devastate Latias. However, with Healing Wish, Latias can potentially escape the horrors of getting trapped and turn said threats into setup fodder.</p>

[SET]
name: Dual Screens
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Healing Wish
move 4: Dragon Pulse
item: Light Clay
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While Latias is often seen as a sweeper or a defense against VoltTurn, it can pull off a support set surprisingly well due to its great bulk and high Speed. With dual screens, Latias can prepare hyper offense teams for setups and sweeps with ease. Light Screen and Reflect boost not only Latias's defenses, but also those of its teammates, for a full eight turns due to Light Clay. Due to its good bulk, Latias can set up dual screens at multiple points in a battle. With its Dragon typing, it resists common Water-, Fire-, Grass-, and Electric-type moves, providing numerous switch-ins.</p>

<p>While it is easy to see why one would use Latias, there is one question that should come to mind: why not use Latios, who has access to Memento and the same Speed, as well as a higher Special Attack? The answer to that is simpler than one would think. Healing Wish provides an excellent asset to offensive teams, especially those in need of a cleric. It would be sad to see one's Dragonite rendered useless due to a burn from Jellicent's Scald, no? With Healing Wish, one never needs to worry about that. Latias can sacrifice itself and allow a sweeper to switch in without taking damage from the opponent's attacks, all while healing off any unfortunate status that can end a premature sweep. Latias carries Dragon Pulse so that it does not become a sitting duck against Taunt users; it also allows Latias to hit other Dragon-types for super effective damage, a useful asset considering the many Dragon-types that roam the OU metagame.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>While Latias has no Special Attack investment, it still hits as hard as a Pokemon with a base 110 Special Attack. The EVs are designed to keep Latias as bulky as possible while maximizing Speed. Speed is an important asset because it allows Latias to get off dual screens quickly; also, it ensures that Latias can pass a Healing Wish against an opponent with less than 110 base Speed, such as Terrakion, Virizion, and Infernape. Besides, Latias has no use for extra power. This brings up another point: one should never opt for Draco Meteor. While the extra power seems appealing, it is not very powerful coming from Latias in the first place, and the drop in Special Attack is really unappealing, considering Latias can become setup fodder after using Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>One can try Hidden Power Fire to hit Scizor and Ferrothorn, but generally speaking, Dragon Pulse is the better option. Other interesting options include Roar and Recover. While Latias can use Roar to phaze away Pokemon that try and set up on it, it can also use Recover to ensure that it sets dual screens up numerous times in a battle. However, these two options leave Latias very open to Taunt, and generally do not help any more than Dragon Pulse. Regardless, if a team is desperate for a phazer or dual screens support, these options may be able to do the trick.</p>

<p>Latias really requires no support to perform its job, as it is a support Pokemon itself. However, the best beneficiaries of this set include setup sweepers and hard hitters such as Terrakion, Dragonite, Volcarona, and Tornadus. In addition, Latias allows for these teammates to run items other than Lum Berry because one does not need to worry about status with Healing Wish available. If paired with a second user of dual screens, Latias can perform its job more effectively, and the team can usually set up another sweep if a first attempted sweep fails. Scizor also makes a good partner because it beats Tyranitar, who can try and annoy this set with Pursuit. One should always pack a reliable way of dealing with Tyranitar and Scizor, as Pursuit can devastate Latias. However, with Healing Wish, Latias can potentially escape the horrors of getting trapped and turn said threats into setup fodder.</p>

gpstamp

GP APPROVED 1/2
 
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[SET]
name: Dual Screens
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Healing Wish
move 4: Dragon Pulse
item: Light Clay
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While Latias is often seen as a sweeper or a defense against VoltTurn, it can pull off a support set surprisingly well due to its great bulk and high Speed. With dual screens, Latias can prepare hyper offense teams for setups and sweeps with ease. Light Screen and Reflect boost not only Latias's defenses, but also those of its teammates' for a full eight turns due to Light Clay. Due to its good bulk, Latias can set up dual screens at multiple points in a battle. With its Dragon typing, it resists common Water-, Fire-, Grass-, and Electric-type moves, providing numerous switch-ins.</p>

<p>While it is easy to see why one would use Latias, there is one question that should come to mind: why not use Latios, who has access to Memento and the same Speed, as well as a higher Special Attack? The answer to that is simpler than one would think. Healing Wish provides an excellent asset to offensive teams, especially those that need a cleric. It would be sad to see one's Dragonite rendered useless due to a burn from Jellicent's Scald, no? With Healing Wish, one never needs to worry about one's Dragonite rendered useless due to an untimely burn from Jellicent's Scald. Latias can sacrifice itself and allow a sweeper to switch in without taking damage from the opponent's attacks, all while healing off any unfortunate status that can end a premature sweep. Latias carries Dragon Pulse so that it does not become a sitting duck against Taunt users; it also allows Latias to hit other Dragon-types for super effective damage, a useful asset considering the many Dragon-types that roam the OU metagame.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>While Latias has no Special Attack investment, it still hits hard due to its base 110 Special Attack. The EVs are designed to keep Latias as bulky as possible while maximizing Speed. Speed is an important asset because it allows Latias to get off dual screens quickly; also, it ensures that Latias can pass a Healing Wish against an opponent with less than 110 base Speed, such as Terrakion, Virizion, and Infernape. Besides, Latias has no use for extra power. This brings up another point: one should never opt for Draco Meteor. While the extra power seems appealing, it is not very powerful coming from Latias in the first place, and the drop in Special Attack is really unappealing, considering Latias can become setup fodder after using Draco Meteor.</p>

<p>One can try Hidden Power Fire to hit Scizor and Ferrothorn, but generally speaking, Dragon Pulse is the better option. Other interesting options are Roar and Recover. While Latias can use Roar to phaze away Pokemon that try and set up on it, it can also use Recover to ensure that it sets dual screens up numerous times in a battle. However, these two options leave Latias very open to Taunt, and generally do not help any more than Dragon Pulse. Regardless, if a team is desperate for a phazer or dual screens support, these moves just might do the trick.</p>

<p>Latias really requires no support to perform its job, as it is a support Pokemon itself. However, the best beneficiaries of this set include setup sweepers and hard hitters such as Terrakion, Dragonite, Volcarona, and Tornadus. In addition, Latias allows for these teammates to run items other than Lum Berry because status is no concern with Healing Wish. available. If paired with a second dual screen user, Latias can perform its job more effectively, and the team can usually set up another sweep if a first attempted sweep fails. Scizor also makes a good partner because it beats Tyranitar, who annoys this set with Pursuit. One should always pack a reliable way of dealing with Tyranitar and Scizor, as Pursuit can devastate Latias. However, with Healing Wish, Latias can potentially escape the horrors of getting trapped and turn said threats into setup fodder.</p>

gpstamp

GP Approved (2/2)
 
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