Resource LC SuMo Viability Rankings (updated @ post #204)

Not open for further replies.


feet of clay
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
OK so fuck SPL, we back in this!


Meowth is so bad. Meowth is already too hight wherever it is because "hey it's a good revenge killer" is not a strong enough argument because there are a ton of "good revenge killers" out there. It's really weak and frail and dies to any priority, gets walled by a ton of different mons without much effort and gives a lot of chances to set up since it can't hit strong after using fake out. It's also fast, but so are the rest of the 20/19/18 speed good revenge killers with actual offensive like elekid, abra, diglett, gastly, offensive staryu, doduo, aipom or pretty much any scarfer. It also has one of the biggest 4mss in lc, making it really hard for you to have the right moveset against the opponent's team unless you're lucky. And yes, technician fake out + feint is decent, but that's why it's listed in the viability rankings due to not being exactly 100% outclassed by aipom.

I think it's also worth noting that meowth has seen absolutely 0 usage in important tours and is only seen in ladder because all people do in ladder is spamming offense, webs and mindless set up which meowth happens to be good against, but it's pretty much deadweight against any slightly bulkier teams. Please stop discussing this mon and move on guys :(


Onix is just so good. It offers so much value in one only slot and is definitelly A+ material. It's the fastest sr user along with drilbur after diglett, has great stabs with almost perfect coverage to hit most things at least neutrally, sturdy juice with exactly 21 hp to abuse berry juice, is a good electric check, flying, fire, poison, rock check, has a customizable 4th move that can be one of explosion for things like snivy or timburr not to setup in front of you, taunt for hazard stack, roar to ensure phazing, heavy slam for fairies, dragon tail for weakening key threats for a late game cleaner or for hazard stack, or endure to ensure bj recovery depending on whatever your team needs... Earthquake is probably one of the best stabs in the game and rock blast allows it to hit at least neutrally via multihit, which is great against weak armor users like vullaby or dwebble, sturdy users like dwebble and sash users like abra or surskit. It can accomplish so many functions in one only slot and often not to get overwhelmed like other mons that are known for doing that like ferroseed, cottonee or croagunk.


Grimer is a good mon but I'm not really a huge fan of it. It's good but not awesome. It checks key threats not many other pokemon can check like snivy, abra or gastly and is only weak to one only type, but can see itself overwhelmed by hazards + a couple of double switches, some funky z-move or two or more of the mons that it's supposed to check being on the same team. It's also a poison type that fails to check fighters or fairies, and stabless shadow sneak is disappointingly weak. I feel on the fence with this one, I wouldn't really move it up or down.


Carvanha should definitelly go down. It loses to the biggest metagame trends right now: croagunk, foongus, timburr, mienfoo, vullaby, snivy, ferroseed, pretty much any priority... It's just really difficult for it to pull through.


Really bad mon: it hits hard due to its ability, but other than that it's weak to sr, frail, slow and weak to common types like rock, electric or flying. Not gonna write a wall on this one.

Bellsprout/Bulbasaur/Oddish/chlorophyll users in general

Drop all of these to something like D since they are pretty much useless without vulpix in the metagame. Maybe keep bulbasaur somewhere higher since z-celebrate is decent, but the rest are irrelevant now.

Still not sure about diglett/croagunk. This was just gonna be a post supporting onix going up but oh well.


High-low My-low
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
I'd like to go ahead and nominate
Treecko to rise from D to C/C-
Treecko is honestly such a potent threat in this meta in that its really not prepared for at all. All it requires is the removal of Poison- and Fire-types and a setup opportunity, and it can be devastating late-game. Diglett is an excellent partner for Treecko, as its extremely easy to fit onto teams anyway and provides Treecko with the removal of Poisons and Fires and Memento support, which gives it a setup opportunity, and the ability to tank a super effective hit from the foe thats taken an attack drop and trigger Unburden more often than not. Treecko's also just a lot better in practice than a lot of what's currently in C-, like Larvitar, Shelmet, Togepi, Cubone, Remoraid, and in my opinion, pretty much everything else in the rank bar maybe Litleo (that thing should rise anyway). Here are some replays that I'd like to use to prove that this guy faces severe injustice in D: - this replay proves that after bulkier threats have been weakened and Poison/Fire-types have been removed, Treecko is able to make full use of its amazing coverage to clean up late-game. It also was able to capitalize on Spritzee's Moonblast to trigger Unburden, which completely secured my team's victory. - this replay is short, but just goes to show how unprepared standard teams are for Treecko. Chinchou was an ideal setup target, as Ice Beam was a guaranteed 2HKO, and thus enough to put Treecko below half and trigger Unburden via the consumption of Berry Juice. - this isn't exactly an ideal replay, since Bullet Seed hitting Archen only twice was a bit of a luck fuck, but Treecko easily would've won me the game had the move hit another time. Once Alolan Grimer and Croagunk were gotten rid of, Treecko was able to capitalize on the opposing Staryu's weak Ice Beam to set up, and punch holes for Rufflet to clean things up (though Treecko would've). This replay also goes to show that if something goes wrong, it's curtains for Treecko, but hey, this is a nom to C, and so far this little guy is fitting all the criteria of a C mon quite nicely in my book.

Overall, Treecko has more of an appreciated niche than anything in D, is more consistent than anything in C-, and has all the coverage it needs to sweep once supported by an incredibly splashable mon in Diglett. I think that these traits are all grounds for a rise to C, or at least C-, cuz damn is D understating this poor little guy.

With my most important nomination out of the way, I'd like to go ahead and touch on a few more Pokemon that in my opinion, seem a little out of place in their current ranks. Please bear with me, I know this post is long af.

Abra up to A+
This received some discussion earlier on, but hasn't been talked about lately when really, Abra more than deserves to rise. Counter has turned Abra into a full-on check to most physical attackers. It no longer fears Munchlax, no longer risks 50/50s with Pawniard, and can now even take care of the Pokemon that gave it the most trouble in Alolan Grimer. Now, absolutely nothing bar things like Spritzee is safe from Abra, as Counter has given it the ability to deal with Pokemon that a matter of weeks ago, were part of the reason this thing was A to begin with. Move it on up, it's up there with Diglett for one of the tier's absolute best revenge killers now.

Larvesta up to B
I was looking at everything in B-, and came to the conclusion that Larvesta's just more consistent than anything else in its current rank. Flame Body for physical attackers and a Fighting-resistance in a Mienfoo and Timburr dominated metagame are two amazing traits, and it certainly helps that Carvanha, a Pokemon that's presence in part really hurt Larvesta, is declining in viability and usage. Yes, Larvesta has a horrible rocks weakness, and I'm not going to deny that that's why it probably got to B- in the first place, but Staryu is such a splashable Pokemon in the current meta and compliments Larvesta's movepool with its own so nicely, so it's no trouble putting Staryu on your team for Larvesta, which as stated before, is just much more consistent than the likes of Snover, Clamperl, and Riolu.

Bulbasaur and Pumpkaboo-Small up to B-
These two are similar to Larvesta in that they're also just more consistent than the rest of C+. You could argue that the loss of Vulpix really hurt Bulbasaur, but it's Z-Celebrate set is honestly just as threatening as its sun sweeper set was given that it has the same Fire/Poison/Grass coverage that's really hard to wall. The loss of sun means that Munchlax isn't as prominent nowadays and that it doesn't compete with Bellsprout nearly as much. Pumpkaboo has its perks as well in that Trick-or-Treat is really good for being able to hit things like Spritzee super effectively, and its unique typing gives it a lot of setup opportunities against a lot of the metagame. Overall, these guys are just better than their C+ brethren in terms of how much they can provide for their team, how easy they are to support, and how consistent they are in their role.

There are a few other noms I'd like to get to but simply don't feel as strongly about or have similar thoughts to people that have already posted, but Dewpider should absolutely drop to C+. This has been summed up really nicely, and I honestly just don't feel like Dewpider has a niche over any other Water-type bar a super strong Surf that should be grounds for a slot on my team. Its other attacks are piss weak, the meta's full of Pokemon that resist Water anyway, and birds continue to rise in popularity. Buneary should also drop to C+, since I honestly think that it suffers too much from its frailty. Buneary's support set provides for teams via Healing Wish, but Buneary's extreme frailty only allows it to take one hit before its forced to use the move, and even then it can just get picked off by priority. There are way too many things to account for when supporting its Z-Splash set as well, since you have to cover Ghosts, Fighting-types, priority, faster Pokemon/choice scarfers, Pokemon with sturdy or bulky mons, yeah you get the point. Lastly, Litleo should rise to C, since that little guy is honestly such a monster. It's fairly self sufficient compared to the rest of C- in that it has coverage to deal with a lot of its would be checks, and Moxie is amazing for cleaning up late game. Of course it needs support due to Fighting-type's presence and its lack of power before a Moxie boost, but that's why I'm nomming it to only C, since surely its more consistent than anything else in its current rank (especially you, Shelmet).

Thanks for reading, and I hope you enjoyed! Finally found some time to post my thoughts, let me know what you guys think!
Last edited:
I haven't played too many recent matches yet, but I think Elekid needs to go up to B+. It's tied with Diglett for the fastest Pokemon in the tier bar the irrelevant Voltorb and it checks so many threats in the tier, such as Staryu, Abra, Vullaby, Slowpoke, Mareanie, and Doudou. It's also another momentum user, Volt Switching on Magnemite and the like so Diglett can trap it. Psychic and HP Grass provide pretty good coverage, with Psychic hitting Foongus and bulky Fighting types while HP Grass turns Chinchou and Mudbray into shaky answers to Elekid. Elekid's not an amazing Pokemon due to its frailty and things like Ferroseed but I still think it has more of a place in the metagame than the rest of B.


Hey, it's me!
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus


formerly crusty
is a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Abra: I nommed this earlier but now with Counter it has a strong reason to rise up. Counter is truly ridiculous, your opponent throws in their Pursuit trapper and bam, they're gone by Counter. This makes it so that you have to play more cautiously around Abra, chip it with special attacks first which risks another mon, then send in your check. While you can argue Abra cant run HP Fighting with Counter, this doesn't really matter since Counter beats what HP Fighting is supposed to (Pawniard), and allows Abra to run something else, like HP Fire for Ferroseed or HP Ground to more reliably beat GrimerA. Nothing else to say, I feel it was among the best of the A ranked mons and Counter really pushes it to A+.

Time for a nom of my own

to C+/B-

Our mascot is really neat right now, with Fightingspam being a common playstyle. Its insane physical bulk eats up the Fighting attacks that are so common. Furthermore, it is able to burn said Fighters as well as any physical attacker with Will-O-Wisp. It is immune to Ground moves thanks to Levitate, is a good Fairykiller with its Poison typing and can even hit Steels with Fire Blast. Koffing also has a lot of utility options, Clear Smog removes any stat boosts so those that try to set up on it can't do so, Memento is able to give a teammate setup opportunities at the cost of itself, and Toxic Spikes poisons any grounded foe not Poison or Steel type. While it really hates Knock Off and Special Attacks, is not so strong, and has to rely on Pain Split for recovery, Koffing is a good mon that is really deserving of a rise, especially when comparing it to the other mons in C and even C+ rank.

Altariel von Sweep

is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I was going to nominate Koffing to C+/B-, but since Elec. has done it, I would like to pinpoint my opinion about it.

Koffing to C+/B-: Agreed. This thing is a really reliable counter to the actual Fighting spam, and it can also can check more chunks of metagame trends, like Ground-types not named Drilbur, and some special attackers. But what it really makes it shine is its Sleep Talk set, having enough coverage to hit everything, and a sublime physical bulk and special bulk, that combined with Eviolite, makes it of bulky nature. And thanks to the rise usage of Grimer-Alola, this creature can shine as a star in the sky, leaving it with no "theoric weaknesses" (Abra is its main weakness). Despite the RestTalk set is not very reliable, due to the luck, it ensures that Koffing will be more than a headache.
My cousin Hilomilo has been trying to get me into 7th gen LC for quite some time now, and after finally giving it a try and having taken a few weeks to familiarize myself with the meta, I'd like to talk about pretty much all of the noms being made atm and how I feel about each individual one. Warning: this post may be long, but I'd really like to start my LC experience off on a good note in addressing points that I think are all quite important. Here we go :D
First, I'll talk about the noms that I agree with...

Magnemite down to A/A- I do think that Magnemite is a shell of its ORAS self (messed around in LC a little last gen and used it on like all of my teams whenever I played), but I don't think the reasons being used to justify a drop are very good. I think right now what's hurting Magnemite most is the rise of Fight spam, which a lot of the time Mag is honestly just deadweight against since it's forced out so easily by Mienfoo and Timburr. Magnemite also struggles in that Fletchling and Cottonee aren't nearly as necessary to check as last gen (from what I've heard, that's why it was once so good) and that there are a lot of relevant things that just beat it (A-Grimer, Diglett, Mudbray, Ponyta, birds with some prior damage). It also needs hazard support to put its BJ set to much success, but entry hazard removers aren't as reliable this gen, and then there's Chinchou, which really is just better against all the aforementioned mons that I said threatened Mag due to its ability to either burn them or hit them super effectively. There are so many things that trouble Magnemite right now, and because of that I'd say it may not even deserve the same rank as Chinchou, which at least has ways around its checks.

Onix and Alolan Grimer up to A+ These two should be pretty self explanatory. A-Grimer's sort of similar to Porygon last gen in that it honestly just blanket checks over half the tier. Look through the A+-B rankings and find 3 Pokemon in each rank that don't struggle to break or tank hits from Grimer, because if you do, you'll realize you can't. Everything in LC despises Knock Off, and Poison Touch and a fantastic typing just allow this thing to be more consistent in its role as a great blanket check than anything else is in A. Onix's newfound strength of the Weak Armor set also speaks for itself, as now you have to play way more carefully to ensure Onix isn't going to provide for your opponent's team to a massive degree. If you predict incorrectly against Onix, you'll face Stealth Rock, unresisted STAB attacks, and Explosion to soften up one of your Pokemon for a revenge kill. These two just provide for teams so consistently that anything less than A+ for either is a crime at the moment.

Abra up to A+ Countersash is honestly being slept on right now. Losing Hidden Power Fighting is honestly so worth it, since even without the move, Abra can still take out Pawniard, while also being able to now 1v1 Pokemon that it formerly wasn't capable of consistently defeating in 1v1 situations. Examples include Munchlax (which Abra never used to beat), Mudbray, Ponyta, Vullaby, and most notably Alolan Grimer, which was easily one of Abra's biggest problems before it developed a way to completely annihilate it. Overall, Counter has just turned Abra into an even more consistent revenge killer with a much smaller amount of counterplay, since the only way you're getting around it is U-turning it to sash then pivoting a Ghost-type into the field, which is still getting hit hard by Shadow Ball. Please move this thing up, it's way better now that almost nothing can reliably take care of it anymore.

Croagunk up to A This one probably needs even less elaboration than the others. Croagunk is so consistent and provides your team with so much it isn't funny. Its typing and ability allow it to blanket check almost as many threats as Alolan Grimer, while its wide range of viable sets means that careful play is required to make sure that Croagunk is properly taken care off, as it will otherwise threaten tf out of most teams and thus should absolutely rise above everything else in A-.

Larvesta up to B,
Dewpider and Buneary down to C+
All of these moves from B- have been summed up quite nicely imo. Larvesta really just flourishes in a metagame where Fight spam is so good and Grass-types are rising in usage as well. Flame Body does wonders for it in terms of discouraging physical attackers, and its rocks weakness is circumvented through Staryu, which is such an amazing partner for Vesta in that their typings complement each other really well. Dewpider just doesn't do anything other than have a really strong Surf/Scald, which isn't enough to justify use over any other offensive Water-type considering it actually loses to Rock-types and has pissweak attacks otherwise, and Buneary just doesn't have the bulk to consistently function as a reliable healing wish user, since its forced to use the move after taking about one hit (that shitty typing isn't helping either).

Bulbasaur and Pumpkaboo-Small up to B- This one to me is a matter of these two being more consistent and having more appreciated niches than anything else in C+ atm. Both are imo just as justifiable to put on your team, as Bulbasaur's typing gives it an easier time against Dark- and Ghost-types while Pump's ability to turn foes into Ghost-types is really useful for hitting stuff like Spritzee and Mareanie quite hard after its boosted. I'm not sure what else to say, since honestly these two just are way better in practice than stuff like Sandile and Deerling that it seems odd they haven't moved up already.

Treecko up to C Treecko's super slept on and as a result, pretty fucking devastating once its Unburden has activated and bulky threats have been removed. Hilo did an awesome job summing this up, and honestly I think that the general ease that comes with supporting Treecko and the fact that its just straight up better than everything in C- and D should warrant a rise to C, though C+ later on wouldn't seem like a stretch tbh.

Litleo up to C Good ol cousin Hilo also touched on this one, albeit briefly, but Musharnanigans really just proved with their replays of Litleo that it's so unprepared for and such a potent sweeper with proper support. This thing is easier to support than other things in its rank like Larvitar and Purrloin and honestly should rise due to flat out proving that it's much better in practice than on paper.

Edit: I agree with Koffing to move up but don't want to clog this post up anymore, so yeah, what the last two posts have said :P

Now, for the noms that I disagree with (I'll try making these shorter) ...

Carvanha down to A-
I think it was Nineage that touched on this, and if so, he did a fantastic job in saying that Carvanha's perks of this generation are just as notable as its downsides to justify placement in A. It does really well on Water and Dark spams, which are rising in popularity as of the sun ban, and Timburr and Croagunk are problems, but aren't on every team, and are easy to take care of when you have a whole 5 slots to support Carvanha with, it's simply too potent and consistent in comparison to what's in A- to drop.

Elekid up to B+
I'm not sure that anything has changed enough for Elekid to justify moving up. It's donked as hard as ever by Ground-types with no way to deal lots of damage to them, and struggles to take on a lot of scarfers since its really frail and reliant on its Speed since it essentially dies to what it doesn't kill. Just don't think its on par with B+ mons and is fine where it is right now.

Lastly, and pardon the length of this post, I'd like to discuss some things I think could/should happen...

Cottonee down to B+
Cottonee honestly just lets your team down sometimes. It really wishes it had more power since it can't OHKO anything, and Prankster nerf really did it in since the tier has an overwhelming amount of good Dark-type sweepers and Dark spam itself is rising in viabilty as a play style. I just don't think Cottonee puts in enough work (even with Z Memento) to justify being in the A-ranks any longer.

Chespin down to D
It lost its biggest niche in countering sun teams with the Vulpix ban, and now only functions as a check to Gastly and Foongus, who still have ways around it through coverage or straight up just pivoting out into an opponent beating Chespin. Without sun, Chespin's use is so hard to justify, since its power sucks and its poor defensive typing keeps it from really doing much before dying anyway.

Riolu down to C+
Probably a bit more controversial, but I think Riolu should drop for reasons similar to Cottonee. It can't check Dark-types with Prankster HJK, and takes crash damage merely when a Dark-type switches into a Copycatted HJK (that's just depressing for a fighter). I haven't seen Riolu put in any work whatsoever this generation, and think that the presence of Timburr, Mienfoo, Scraggy and Pancham hurts it since that means it has such notable competition.

Sorry for the long post, but if you read this whole thing you're a real bro, and I hope you enjoyed reading! :) Hope some of what I said here is taken into consideration! Thanks for the warm welcome!
Last edited:
i agree with pretty much everything in the above post, except for magnemite dropping. while the sturdyjuice set isn't amazing, the scarf set is what makes it so threatening. scarf mag is one of the most dangerous offensive threats in the meta and is the reason just about every team has an electric immunity on it. keep mag in a+


Banned deucer.
i agree with pretty much everything in the above post, except for magnemite dropping. while the sturdyjuice set isn't amazing, the scarf set is what makes it so threatening. scarf mag is one of the most dangerous offensive threats in the meta and is the reason just about every team has an electric immunity on it. keep mag in a+
it absolutely is not the reason every team has an eletric immunity. elekid is so much better now coz better coverage, speed and ability to not be locked into dumb moves. also dig is everywhere lol
Agree with everything in the above posts except the statement about Chespin. Chespin didn't beat sun in SuMo due to Acid Downpour ignoring the ability. Chespin is, however, with sp.def investements, a solid gastly, foongus, mudbray and Chinchou check, while being able to set up spikes on them and heal up with synethesis, also getting access to coverage moves (along with giga drain as main STAB) such as Drain Punch/Superpower for pawniard, Zen Headbutt for Gastly/Foongus/Fight switch ins (lol)/Rock slide for flying/fire switch ins and leech seed for some longeviety I guess. Not saying Chespin is great, but it's better than Palkia246 gives it credit for.
The issue with Chespin is that aside from countering a select few pokemon (Foongus, non-hex gastly, non-resttalk mudbray, drilbur, some waters), it's very often dead weight.
With sun no longer being in the picture, you have to run Spikes and Synthesis for Chespin to actually be able to do something useful in every battle. This means that you are stuck with two slots for 4 moves that you really want to run (seed bomb/zhb/rock slide/drain punch), and that's not even considering all other options that aren't as good but still usable e.g. aerial ace, poison jab and roar.
The dilemma you then find yourself in is that no matter what combination you use, chespin will generally get walled and/or forced out by something on your opponent's team, which kinda sucks.

That being said, I do think that Chespin is still usable with the couple niches I mentioned (walling some pokemon, setting up spikes and having recovery), but I do think it should move down now that sun is gone, because countering sun a good majority of the time was one of the reasons to use Chespin. I don't know if it should move down to D rank, but I think C- is probably good for it right now.
The issue with Chespin is that aside from countering a select few pokemon (Foongus, non-hex gastly, non-resttalk mudbray, drilbur, some waters), it's very often dead weight.
With sun no longer being in the picture, you have to run Spikes and Synthesis for Chespin to actually be able to do something useful in every battle. This means that you are stuck with two slots for 4 moves that you really want to run (seed bomb/zhb/rock slide/drain punch), and that's not even considering all other options that aren't as good but still usable e.g. aerial ace, poison jab and roar.
The dilemma you then find yourself in is that no matter what combination you use, chespin will generally get walled and/or forced out by something on your opponent's team, which kinda sucks.

That being said, I do think that Chespin is still usable with the couple niches I mentioned (walling some pokemon, setting up spikes and having recovery), but I do think it should move down now that sun is gone, because countering sun a good majority of the time was one of the reasons to use Chespin. I don't know if it should move down to D rank, but I think C- is probably good for it right now.
Just because the mons that it mainly checks/counters aren't on a team does not make spikestacking useless, which is why I mentioned the spike set > any other set. You don't, however, have to run the spike set for it to be viable. Got a rather fun team with Synthesis + 3 moves, works perfectly fine for me, even in games without Foongus/Gastly/Mudbray/Onix/Drilbur/some waters (Allthough admittedly probs only had like 1 of those games because these mons are on literally every solid team). I don't really care if you want it C+, C- or D, it's still better than both of you give it credit for. Yes, Chespin can (and will) be forced out at some point, but that happens to every single mon in the entire game. Chespin is ofc forced out more often than say a +2 Vullaby, but there's a reason why Vull is S rank and Chespin is all the way down here. As previously mentioned, Chespin is by far not great, definitely easy to force out, fairy weak etc etc BUT my point is that you both devalue it far too much. Chespin has several niches in it's ability, spikes, recovery, mixed bulk and good movepool. Grass typing is also fairly valuable in the current meta for a defensive mon, and having a grass spiker not weak to fighting is, for some teams, valuable af.

I do think it should move down now that sun is gone, because countering sun a good majority of the time was one of the reasons to use Chespin. I don't know if it should move down to D rank, but I think C- is probably good for it right now.
As mentioned, good sun counter in ORAS, not so in SuMo. If not being able to counter sun was a reason to move down (which it kinda is), then it should've moved down ages ago tho and not just now when sun recently gone. I'd rather have it move down when poisinium z came and move slightly up again now that sun is pretty much gone.

Also as of now I've focused on defensive set cause obv best set if anyone disagrees then go ahead I haven't ever bothered to try offensive ones, it does have the ability to run those tho (Surprise factor??) idk those are probs bad I'll give em a shot at some point.
Just because the mons that it mainly checks/counters aren't on a team does not make spikestacking useless, which is why I mentioned the spike set > any other set. You don't, however, have to run the spike set for it to be viable. Got a rather fun team with Synthesis + 3 moves, works perfectly fine for me, even in games without Foongus/Gastly/Mudbray/Onix/Drilbur/some waters (Allthough admittedly probs only had like 1 of those games because these mons are on literally every solid team). I don't really care if you want it C+, C- or D, it's still better than both of you give it credit for. Yes, Chespin can (and will) be forced out at some point, but that happens to every single mon in the entire game. Chespin is ofc forced out more often than say a +2 Vullaby, but there's a reason why Vull is S rank and Chespin is all the way down here. As previously mentioned, Chespin is by far not great, definitely easy to force out, fairy weak etc etc BUT my point is that you both devalue it far too much. Chespin has several niches in it's ability, spikes, recovery, mixed bulk and good movepool. Grass typing is also fairly valuable in the current meta for a defensive mon, and having a grass spiker not weak to fighting is, for some teams, valuable af.
I think you're valuing Chespin's upsides too much and not looking at how bad the downsides can be. I also think that arguing the same points again and again is a waste of time so i'll just try to ladder with Chespin whenever i'm free to see if I can back up what i'm saying with replays.

As mentioned, good sun counter in ORAS, not so in SuMo. If not being able to counter sun was a reason to move down (which it kinda is), then it should've moved down ages ago tho and not just now when sun recently gone. I'd rather have it move down when poisinium z came and move slightly up again now that sun is pretty much gone.

Also as of now I've focused on defensive set cause obv best set if anyone disagrees then go ahead I haven't ever bothered to try offensive ones, it does have the ability to run those tho (Surprise factor??) idk those are probs bad I'll give em a shot at some point.
Chespin was still a decent sun counter, just not as good as it was before. It also did move down from where it was in ORAS (it was C+ then)

Offensive sets aren't as good because Chespin's speed is so low


High-low My-low
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
I've been doing some thinking, and really think that right now, the C ranks could use some cleaning up. There's a lot of rank inflation in that some Pokemon are straight up better than what's in their rank, while others are just not cutting it to justify their current placement. I'd like to go over all of the Pokemon in the ranks C+ to C-, and some of what's in B- and D, since I feel like no one's really talked much about the lower half of our VR when really, there's just as much need for it to be accurate as ranks S-B. Without further ado, I'd like to go ahead and talk about what should happen in the C ranks.

First, I'd like to cover the Pokemon in B- that I think should drop to somewhere in C

Dewpider B- -> C+:
This one has been covered pretty well and by many people. Dewpider simply just doesn't have as strong a niche as other offensive Water-types to justify a teamslot, and that situation isn't be reflected as clearly as possible in ranking it alongside Clamperl and Frillish, who are both better in their offensive roles. Dewpider has an obscene amount of power behind Water-type moves, but pitiful power behind any of its other moves, which is quite inconvenient in a meta with so many Pokemon capable of tanking a Surf or Liquidation. It's also weak to rocks and the tier's ever so common birds, which are things that most other waters, like Chinchou, Staryu, Frillish, etc. are capable of pressuring to an extent or at least not flat out losing to. Overall, Dewpider requires so much support as your team's offensive water-type in contrast to other options, that unless you desperately want or need that powerful Surf, it isn't worth using, and certainly isn't worth keeping in B-.

Riolu B- -> C+: Nommed this down to B-, and glad to see that it's being nommed down even further. Riolu just sucks right now. Its so hard for the poor thing to sweep when Dark-types, a type that as a fighter it should check, can freely switch in on a Copycatted High Jump Kick, disrupt Riolu's Copycat chain, and essentially deal 50% damage to Riolu by merely switching in. Riolu's overall combination of the inability to spam HJK nearly as reliably as last gen (thanks, Pumpkaboo and Prankster nerf), worse bulk than other fighters, and lack of Knock Off or an actually reliable Fighting move are grounds for a drop, as well as a lack of usage over the likes of Pancham, a better SD user for a multitude of reasons.

Buneary B- -> C+ (?): I know that I nominated Buneary to drop, but now I'm much less sold on my reasoning. Buneary's super frail, yes, and at times thatcan hurt it when its trying to support its team, of course, but there isn't another mon in the tier quite like Buneary. It can cripple defensive and offensive switch-ins alike with Trick and Thunder Wave, generate momentum, hit decently hard, and support its team sweeper with healing wish in one slot. That's fantastic role compression, and although Buneary may be overwhelmed at times in performing all of its roles, it certainly gets at least one of these jobs done throughout the match, which leaves me torn as to whether it should really drop now.

Next, Pokemon that should rise from C to B- or higher, as well as from D

Treecko D -> C
: I'm aware of the fact that I've already made this nom, but will be beyond frustrated if Treecko isn't moved to at least C-. My last post received a lot of support in favor of Treecko's rise, and honestly, the fact that its generally not prepared for, the ability to support it way easier than other sweepers in D like Poliwag and Diglett-Alola, and the fact that Rowlet's SD set is ranked at C- on the sets vr that I'm managing are all grounds for a Treecko rise. It is far too consistent in comparison to what's in D and has a much more appreciated and viable niche, and should be recognized as the tier's best physical grass, which isn't being done in keeping it below Rowlet's SD set and Chespin.

These two C+ -> B-: I've shed light on this nomination as well, and honestly think that both Bulbasaur and Pump-S have enough individual merits as Z-Sweepers to rise to B-. In comparing these two to the likes of good C+ Pokemon in Sandile, Stufful, Meowth, Fletchling, and Trubbish, you'd find that even compared to the aforementioned mons these two are way more consistent and have way more appreciated niches, or at least niches that aren't faced with as severe of competition. Pumpkaboo-S could honestly even rise to B at some point, but that's a nom for another day.

With those nominations out of the way, I'd like to now talk about everything else in the C ranks that I think is a little out of place

Chespin C -> C-/D: Sorry Fille, but this mon is hot garbage atm and isn't cutting it to be considered on par with what else sits in C. Chespin's ability to defensively check Foongus and Gastly and waters is definitely a great trait, but there are more reliable defensive checks to the aforementioned threats, and even then, offense is so prevalent that a defensive check will likely be much harder to fit on a team. Chespin's poor power and speed leave offensive sets with competition from Treecko, while it can't even do anything to one of the main mons it checks in Mudbray, who just accumulates Defense boosts upon taking hits, and can recover with either Rest or Berry Juice in the process. It isn't consistent anymore, and certainly needs dropping at this point in the meta.

Koffing C -> C+: Kudos to Elec for making this nom, as it was something I hadn't looked into until recently, and yeah, Koffing really should rise. Fight spam is on the rise, and physical attacks dominate the metagame even more now with sun gone. Koffing can comfortably check Fight Spam, a lot more reliable than say, Alolan Grimer, as well as comfortably tank physical hits, and unlike other defensive Poison types, doesn't fear Diglett because of Levitate (Drilbur's uncommon these days), and is also only weak to Psychic, which is generally uncommon as a type outside of Abra. It can also reliably spread status, do a significant amount of damage to offensive teams for a defensive poke, and fit really comfortably onto balanced teams with Pokemon like Spritzee, Munchlax, and Hippopotas. It's certainly more consistent than anything in C right now, and has enough merits over the other defensive poisons that a rise to B- in the future doesn't even sound like much of a stretch.

Dratini C -> C+: Not a lot has necessarily changed for Dratini at all recently, though I do feel like it brings enough to the table to absolutely deserve being placed in the same rank as Tyrunt. While its Dragon Dance set isn't all too good, Dratini's mixed attacking set, although having gone seemingly unnoticed, threatens a large portion of the meta due to its great coverage. Fire Blast and Iron Tail pretty much hit everything that isn't hit for major damage by Draco Meteor extremely hard, like Pawn, Snubbull, Cottonee, Ferroseed, etc. Dratini also appreciates the rise in viability of Sticky Web, which is a playstyle that it functions extremely well on. Slept on threat that while not great, is definitely C+ material in that it's truly as consistent as the meta's currently highest ranked Dragon-type in Tyrunt.

Exeggcute C -> C-: Prior to the Vulpix ban, Exeggcute actually had a pretty unappreciated niche in that it was a pretty great secondary sun sweeper. It didn't stack weaknesses as severely as Bulbasaur due to the actual difference in typing from Bellsprout, and with Psychic, could actually blow past a lot of Pokemon used to deal with sun, like Snover, Salandit, and Chespin. Unfortunately, Exeggcute no longer has a place as a sun sweeper since the tier lacks an automatic setter. Harvest sets are also really hard to use effectively, since not only do they take a rather defensive approach in an offensive meta, but Exeggcute has a shit ton of weaknesses to common types (Bug, Fire, Dark, and Flying aren't great types to be weak to as a defensive pokemon), and as a result has a lot of trouble effectively stalling out opponents since Pokemon of these types or with these types as attack coverage are seen more than once on every team. It's just not as effective with its biggest niche gone and its other having been lacking as of late anyway.

Cubchoo C -> C-: Cubchoo's a similar case to Exeggcute in that the playstyle it's best on really isn't too solid atm. Hail is really struggling due to its lack of good setters and vulnerability to Fire-types. Cubchoo has Surf to hit Fire-types with, but all of them can just tank a hit and OHKO Cubchoo with STAB. Overall, hail is struggling enough as is and really only needs one abuser atm in Alolan Sandshrew (who actually has additional uses outside of its favorite weather), which leaves Cubchoo in the dust and not nearly as good as it was in the beginning of the generation.

Aron C -> C-/D: Aron's a generally forgotten Pokemon, and for good reason. It honestly just sucks in the current meta. Fighting-type priority is so much more prevalent this gen, and fight spam is also more prevalent a playstyle. Alongside that detriment is the prevalence of Diglett and Mudbray, which are just as troublesome for Aron, as well as the increase in usage of Water Spam, the fact that defensive sets are totally outclassed by Onix, and the fact that offensive sets are generally better done by Cranidos and Archen, which rock Head Smash in contrast to Aron, who doesn't have the speed or typing to as reliably spam the move. Overall, this poor little guy struggles to find a niche that isn't held by a better Pokemon or is held back by its poor typing and Speed, and as a result shouldn't justify placement in C, or a teamslot for that matter.

Morelull C -> D: Morelull is literally an inferior Foongus. It is literally only more useful against Pokemon like Carvanha and Scraggy, but the former is increasingly less prevalent while the latter carries Poison Jab as coverage rather frequently. Morelull's bad physical bulk for a defensive pokemon, horrible poison weakness in a metagame where Croagunk and Alolan Grimer are absolutely everywhere, and lack of regenerator are all reasons that justify never using it over Foongus, who isn't faced with any of these problems, can blanket check many more Pokemon far more reliably, and is literally just more consistent and useful 100% of the time (don't even mention Diglett in this situation when it carries Sludge Bomb more frequently these days).

Cubone C- -> C: Cubone is a particularly good abuser of Sticky Web, which just so happens to be a REALLY good playstyle at the moment. The sheer amount of switches Cubone's huge offensive prowess allows it force lets it capitalize on its access to Knock Off, which is something most Ground-types only dream of having, to make anything that wanted to switch in a no longer reliable answer to this monster. Cubone's overall ability to be way more threatening and consistent in its role compared to the rest of C-, as well as the fact that it thrives on a great current playstyle are all good reasons in my book to make a case for a rise.

Litleo C- -> C/C+: I understand that C- was a bit of preliminary ranking, but its been made clear at this point that Litleo has what it takes to rise. It has so much potential late-game once bulkier threats and fighting types are removed, and by virtue of Flame Charge, is much harder to revenge kill in practice than on paper, as priority eventually becomes your only reliable answer. Litleo's so consistent in its role that C+ is nowhere near a stretch for it in the meta, and in comparison to other C- sweepers like Larvitar and Mantyke, it's much easier to support and use in general.

Geodude C- -> Unranked/D: Geodude really got screwed this generation. Its only use as a lead over Onix was Explosion, but Onix now runs Weak Armor all the time, and as a result is now able to use Explosion to a fair degree of success, as well as keep foes guessing, and lay Stealth Rock down 100% of the time due to its sheer unpredictability between sets. Geodude can somewhat reliably set up rocks, but only once due to its far worse speed than onix which makes it more exploitable. It's honestly looking to me like Geodude is almost entirely outclassed by Onix due to its major lack of versatility and worse Speed and movepool, though D may be okay for it since it does have a higher Attack, which is useful at times vs. bulkier threats.

Machop, Purrloin, Shelmet down to D: Grouping these three together since all have been seriously hurt by the new generation in various ways and thus justify dropping from C-. Machop was really done in by the confusion nerf, which makes it way harder to actually justify using it as a Choice Scarf Fighter over Mankey, who it currently shares a rank with. Things that don't at all mind confusion, like Foongus, Staryu, and Abra, are also extremely prevalent at the moment, and overall contribute to the lack of incentive to use Machop over Mankey, who isn't even good but can still hit Fairies harder. Purrloin was also done in by a nerf, which was to its prankster ability. Some of the best targets of Purrloins status moves last generation were NP Vullaby, Scraggy, and Carvanha. Now, all of these threats can accumulate stat boosts without worrying about Purrloin, and it honestly feels like that alongside its horrible frailty and worse typing than Cottonee make Purrloin extremely hard to justify using at all, as Dark and Fight spams are currently prevalent and dealt with a lot more reliably by Cotton (who also just has better tools to support its team). Shelmet I feel should drop since as a Bug-type spikes user, it's definitely about on par with Wimpod. Shelmet's recovery and bulk are totally offset by its horrible defensive typing, speed, and rocks weakness, and Wimpod's fast taunt, slight use with emergency exit, and ability to lower opponents' offenses with Scald and Struggle Bug make it generally as consistent, as sometimes Shelmet's ability and bulk help it reliably set up spikes or wall the likes of Foongus and Mareanie, who can definitely be annoyances.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading! Sorry this post was so long, I know we've had a lot like these lately, but I really feel like addressing the C ranks and what should happen within them is quite important. I hope you enjoyed reading, let me know what you guys think! (also sorry Quote for the huge ass update all these noms being made lately may provide you with).
Last edited:
Gonna share my thoughts and hope to bring up some conversations again.
Thoughts I agree with.

What Sken and Hilo said. Some specific mons I agree with and super brief reasoning as they've been covered extremely well

Dewpider down- Ass mon
Mag down- Not bad, but certainly not A+ worthy. Scarf is ok, but most cases run scarf chou. Scarf you can pivot around. Juice is ass. Trapper is never used anyways
Onix up- Does SO much in one slot
Treecko up- Solid sweeper that is underprepped for
Abra up- Stupid good. Ability to beat its own counters now
Koffing up- Counters lot of the relevant meta
Croagunk up- Just amazing glue for teams and amazing mon
Pump-S up- ZToT is really good
Carv down- Loses to common meta threats rn

Some noms of my own to add to the discussion hopefully

Wingull to C+ These 2 are far too low for their respective roles. Wingull just is absurd. LO hurricane is ridiculously strong along with flynium turning it into a base 190 flying nuke. Water+Flying coverage is super hard to switch around or into as well. This mon also gets knock and u-turn for team support/pivoting.
Here's an SPL replay of wingull by esteemed user Kingler12345 where it wears down spritz enough for Timb to win the game.
Overall, it's not the best mon as hurricane misses can easily make you lose MUs but it is certainly not C- and is leagues better than other C mons

Teddiursa to C+ Too cute for C. 21 Speed with Quick feet + boosted facade from a base 80 attack and decent enough bulk in double base 50s and 60 hp just on paper is incredible. Just give it CC and Crunch for coverage along with protect for guaranteed orb leads to a C+ worthy mon.

Taillow to B Guts and LO mixed are both amazing. 19 Speed is incredible.
Special- Boomburst has no safe switch ins really bar pawn. HP filler koes resists.
Guts- Facade is ridiculous. Brave bird hits other mons. Quick Attack finishes weakened Staryus along with abras/digletts/elekids/ weakened scarfers
Last edited:


is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I wanna give my thoughts on two nominations that are going on right now:

A -> A+/S
So recently I had a conversation with Imanalt on PS about some of the best mons in the tier. We both agreed Abra was up there (granted he felt it was the absolute best which I disagree with, but I digress). This thing has always been good of course, as it is either one of the most reliable stops to nearly every sweeper/cleaner in the tier with its Focus Sash set, or one of the most powerful wallbreakers with its Life Orb set. It has amazing coverage, was really only countered by Alolan Grimer, and was always one of the scaries sights in team preview. Realistically, this thing should've been A+ before. Then the Pokemon Bank update came out, and this sleeping monster 'woke up'.
Abra got the ability to use Counter in combination with Magic Guard, which just screwed over the most reliable answers to Abra, which were of course Pursuit trappers. Suddenly, SashBra can simply click Counter after Alolan Grimer or Pawniard comes in, and even if they Pursuit, they're dead. Because of this, the biggest counter for Abra kills the counter. Granted, Alolan Grimer has adapted to this and has started to use Fire Blast on the predicted Counter. However, since the whole point is to trap Abra for if it switches out, this is very risky, as Abra can just leave if it predicts correctly, thus making it a 50/50. Yes you read that right. The biggest counter for Abra is a 50/50.
Sure, Abra is frail as a bird and will die to even a rubber ducky (some people get this joke), but when you're one of the hardest hitters in the tier, one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier, AND oftentimes have a Sash, that's really not an issue. All in all, Abra is simply really hard to deal with now, is honestly one of the best Pokemon in the tier, and should move up to A+ at the very least.

A -> A-
I have fallen in love with Carvanha recently. While it does lose to the increasingly popular Croagunk and Timburr, it rips through practically every team that lacks those or after they are eliminated. It has unresisted coverage while hitting obscenely hard and this makes it one of the most solid late-game cleaners in the game. In addition, it fits really well on Water and Dark spam cores, since those are great at wearing down and eventually taking out those annoying Timburr and Croagunk. Also guys, use Psychium Z sometime. It's better in practice than it seems in theory, trust me.
Anyway, the main argument people are using is that the increased popularity of Croagunk and Timburr is stopping Carvanha from being good. And yes, it's definitely hurting Carvanha. However, it's not as bad as people think. Croagunk gets trapped by Diglett (and Trapinch), thus meaning it's relatively easily removed from play if it comes in to prevent a Carv sweep. Timburr is relatively easy to wear down, overload, and take out. In addition, Timburr can only switch in once, as it gets 2HKOed, and Croagunk risks getting Psychic Fangs'ed (how do you spell this) and destroyed everytime it comes in. This means that Carvanha threatens a KO every single time it comes in once Timburr is hit once.
No, Carvanha is not as good as it was before Tim and Gunk got real popular, I'll admit that. They very significantly threaten it and prevent its sweep as long as they are alive. However, its direct competitors as a late game cleaner in the A- tier, which this supposedly belongs in, are Scarf Doduo, which kills itself before the opponent's team, Scarf Rufflet (sorta), which misses and dies, DDance Corphish, which is slow and thus gets revenged easily even without priority (assuming it gets hit on the turn it sets up as well), and Shell Smash Dwebble, which struggles even more with the omnipresent Fighting-types. Carvanha is just... better than these, as they all have significant reliability issues. These mons are of course a bit more versatile, but none of them are as reliable as Carvanha, and as such it shouldn't drop.

Not only do I not usually do these sorts of posts, it's also late at night when writing this, and even I felt I was getting incoherent near the end of this. I still wanted to finish this post, and I hope what I said is clear enough.
carvanha seems to... contribute very little defensively. i don't think it saw much tournament usage and to see its consistency you just need to see its 1v1 matchups against all the pokemon that are in the S-rank (well star needs tbolt but you see my point). u also get forced out by timburr and gunk. it's a strong pkmn when it comes in, sure, but there are pretty much no opportunities for it to do so IMO. also with the Z-moves running around, i'd feel pretty uncomfortable relying on something like a slow foo to pass to it (still gets bopped by the priority users...). A- seems better suited to it.

abra hates grimer but literally any team without it seems unprepared for him (which is why i think a similar argument could potentially be made for gastly, who provides potential defensive utility over the one-time sash sac). I'd move him up to A+.

could croagunk see a rise? it's very solid at what it does and seeing it in the same rank as cottonee feels... weird. maybe you could move cotton down I guess? actually thinking about it, that'd probably work a lot better because cottonee basically seems like a non factor usually.
Magnemite to A-. Elekid to B+. When Mag is good, it's very, very good, tossing Thunderbolts around and tying teams into knots with Volt Switch. The problem is this happens less frequently now than ever. Grass and Ground types are ubiquitous and eat Electric moves without much concern. Nearly all birds run Knock Off, and the one that doesnt (Rufflet) still pummels it with Superpower. This means Flying checks should be fast, and Mag isnt without a Choice Scarf, which narrows a slate of coverage options that's not very wide to begin with. Elekid, by contrast, has blazing natural speed and a bevy of coverage options. It presents a threat throughout the match and is great for smiting an NP Vulla untapped by a physical attack. Id still rank it slightly below Mag because of its inability to take most hits and occasional lack of power - lacking a second STAB hurts. But these two compete seriously for a teamslot frequently enough that it seems absurd to have them like 4 subranks apart.

Abra to A+. You knew it was coming. The Sash Counter set is a kill on nearly anything; the Life Orb set is impossible to wall. A-Grimer, the best check in the meta, takes 52% from a LO HP Ground and often doesnt run Shadow Sneak back because of the possibility of... Sash Counter. Idk how much i need to explain here

Aaron's Aron

A concussion update in my info tab
I agree with Abra moving up to A+. I agree with pretty much everything you guys said about it.

I agree and disagree with moving Magnemite down though. I agree that it should drop, but I think just to A, not A-. Yes, it sometimes gets locked into inconvenient moves and there are a lot of Electric-type immunities out there. It's not as good as it's XY days. However, it still hits insanely hard almost all the time, especially with Analytic backing it up. It's Choice Scarf set is still fantastic, checking a lot of Pokemon and providing great momentum. You can generally avoid being locked into stupid moves if you know what you're doing, so it's not a terrible issue. Definitely an A quality Pokemon in my opinion.


is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
The Council Has Spoken
After a long wait, the VR council has discussed and voted on a huge number of nominations that were made in this thread. I'm posting the brief reasoning behind why we decided to make the changes we made, and not make the changes we didn't make. If you don't feel satisfied by my brief reasoning, feel free to read the original nomination, its probably more in-depth than what I wrote.
Major props to the rest of the VR council for designating me as the like recipient of this post.

Approved Nominations

Grimer-Alola A --> A+:
Grimer-Alola needs little explanation. It is one of the most splashable Pokemon in the metagame, able to blanket check a myriad of offensive threats while virtually always pulling its weight.
Croagunk: A- --> A:
Croagunk's role compression makes it extremely splashable as it can easily fit alongside many of the common Pokemon on offensive teams. Its biggest problem from metagames past, overall lack of offensive presence, has become less of an issue now that Ghost-types are somewhat less common and it can afford to run a Nasty Plot set (which also leaves it less susceptible to Diglett).
Carvanha A --> A-:
This was a hard one. The decision was arrived at by considering several factors. First, because Carvanha provides no defensive utility, it has to be built around offensively to be useful. Because teams are built around Carvanha's offensive potential, they rely on it being able to do its job and clean late-game. However, many of Carvanha's best checks are rising in usage (Timburr, Croagunk, Ferroseed, and Snubbull), which means it is less effective at actually cleaning. Since teams rely on it being able to clean late-game, and more and more teams have Pokemon that just stop it from doing so, Carvanha has become somewhat of a matchup-reliant Pokemon, which justifies it moving down.

Onix A- ==> A Onix is obviously very effective at compressing roles, and one of LC's most splashable Pokemon, but not worthy of A+ due to its poor Attack and unfortunate defensive typing.
Magnemite: A+ --> A: Magnemite struggles with many metagame trends at the moment, such as the ubiquitous Timburr and Croagunk, which revenge kill it, and Onix, which immediately forces it into 50/50s. However, these flaws are balanced out by utility, power, and good STAB coverage, which combined are enough to keep it out of A-.
Ponyta: A --> A-: Fire-type STAB isn't particularly good offensively at the moment, and Ponyta's lack of reliable coverage to hit many Ground- and Rock-types leave it forced to run a SunnyBeam or Bloom Doom set. Both of these sets sacrifice defensive utility, either by forcing it into forgoing Will-O-Wisp or forgoing Eviolite, which leave it overall less potent than in past metagames.
Pumpkaboo-Super A- --> B+:
Pumpkaboo-Super has taken a major hit recently in each of its two primary roles: Dark-type coverage is now run by many of the most common offensive Pokemon, which hurts its defensive utility, and Staryu, the metagame's Rapid Spinner, is usually seen running an Analytic + Ice Beam set, which leaves Pumpkaboo unable to reliably spinblock.
Elekid B --> B+:
Elekid has the Speed to threaten opposing Flying-types, which turns it into a good offensive check to them, and has the coverage to seriously threaten many common offensive builds. However, it suffers from the lack of immediate power which such a frail Pokemon would want, so it should stay out of A-.
Pumpkaboo-Small C+ --> B-:
Pumpkaboo-Small fits well into B-: it does have merit as a sweeper, able to set up in one turn and abuse fairly good coverage, but it is not strong enough to sweep without substantial team support, and even with team support, it tends to rely on getting favorable matchups to be effective.
Bulbasaur C+ --> B-:
Z-Celebrate Bulbasaur is very similar to Z-ToT Pumpkaboo-Small, and was moved based on the same reasoning given for Pumpkaboo above.
Koffing C --> C+:
Koffing's typing and access to Will-o-Wisp fit well into the metagame at the moment, but its lack of any kind of offensive presence was deemed enough to hold it out of B-.
Dewpider B- --> C:
Dewpider is essentially a one-trick pony, struggling due to its low speed, predictability due to reliance on one attacking type, and lack of enough power to be a reliable wallbreaker, while providing little support to its teammates.
Treecko D --> C:
The current metagame trends allow Treecko to fulfill its sweeping role well when compared with the rest of the D ranks. Buneary B- ==> C+ Despite its unique support movepool, nothing in the metagame really appreciates its unique blend of support moves enough to warrant running a support Pokemon with bad defensive typing and mediocre stats.
Chespin C --> D:
Pretty simple move. With Bellsprout gone, this thing no longer has much to check except Gastly, has mediocre at best offensive presence, and is just far too situational to justify use on practically any team.
Riolu B- --> C+:
Riolu does maintain a niche thanks to its access to Prankster Copycat, but Dark-types can now switch into it and force it to take HJK crash damage if it is calling that move for usage, and it struggles to find a team slot over the myriad of other excellent Fighting-types in the metagame due to poor bulk and mediocre initial offensive presence.
Cubchoo C --> C-:
Cubchoo really only has viability on the Hail archetype, which isn't good to begin with, its outclassed as a Hail sweeper by A-Sandshrew, and we feel that its rare that it will be able to significantly damage a team. However, it is still powerful enough and fast enough with Hail that we feel it can do enough in certain matchups to keep it out of D rank.
Exeggcute C --> C-:
Without sun, it has to rely on Harvest, which is pretty darn awful, especially given that most of the metagame can either hit it with Knock Off or straight up KO it.
Morelull C--> C-: Morelull is pretty badly outclassed by Foongus, but it can still perform its role well enough that we didn't feel it should be moved down to D, which was what the original nomination recommended.
Geodude C- --> D:
Geodude is almost entirely outclassed by Onix, but has a niche still due to its better Attack stat and much more powerful Explosion.
Aron C --> D:
Aron had a niche, which was setting up a Rock Polish against Fletchling. Fletchling is gone. Aron can still potentially be a threat, but the amount of support it requires keeps it down in D rank.
Machop, Purrloin, Shelmet --> D: These Pokemon are not very good and have small niches that don't merit their placement out of D rank.

Rejected Nominations

Cottonee A- --> B+:
Cottonee is not what it has been in metas past, but we feel in this metagame the support it can provide, whether it is priority Memento (or Z-Memento) to support a sweeper (which is quite a good strategy in this offensive meta), or by checking many common offensive types without losing a ton of momentum, is valuable enough to keep it in A-.
Larvesta B- --> B:
It was deemed that Larvesta cannot reliably fill any team role due to its ridiculous Stealth Rock weakness. Stealth Rock is incredibly common in the current metagame, and while it is possible to remove, the fact that it is absolutely necessary to both fit hazard removal onto a team and lose momentum actually removing the hazards to even get Larvesta into the game is a significant enough flaw that we feel Larvesta shouldn't be moved up.
Taillow B- --> B:
Taillow does have good wallbreaking potential, but the metagame is flooded with wallbreakers, and many, such as Staryu and Abra, have power or utility that Taillow doesn't have that allow them to outcompete it for a team slot most of the time.
Dratini C --> C+:
The nomination for Dratini stated that it should be moved up based on the viability of its wallbreaker set. We believe that Dratini is too slow to be a very effective wallbreaker, and faces competition for a team slot in the same way that Taillow does (read the above nomination).
Litleo C- --> C:
Litleo is too unreliable and requires too much support to be expected to reliably sweep a team, which makes any team built around it immediately matchup-reliant. Additionally, Fire is not a particularly good offensive typing at the moment.
Cubone C- --> C:
Cubone is heavily reliant on Speed control to perform its role, which essentially means Sticky Web or something even less reliable (looking at you, Trick Room). Because webs teams are forced to use a team slot on a webs setter, they need to compress other team roles into a few slots. This means that, on a well-constructed webs team, the webs abusers also need to compress other roles into one slot in a way that Cubone doesn't. Thus, its just not really worth the slot on most teams.
Wingull C- --> C+:
Wingull is not strong enough to be effective without using Hurricane, and not reliable enough at hitting Hurricane due to the low accuracy of the move to pull its weight. It has a small niche for teams that need really fast Defog + its offensive benefits which keeps it ranked, but this really isn't enough to justify it moving out of C-.
Teddiursa C --> C+:
The metagame does not particularly favor Normal-types offensively at the moment, and Teddiursa is generally outclassed by other offensive Normal-types anyway. It tends to get picked off by priority or outsped by opposing Choice Scarf users as well. It does have a unique blend of Speed and powerful STAB after Toxic Orb, but it requires more support than the Pokemon that compete with it as an offensive Normal-type in a way that makes us think it should not be moved up.

Please Discuss

For real, thank you to everyone who contributes to this thread. I know that I appreciate reading almost every post in here because they provide valuable insight about the state of our metagame. However, I know that I and others can get frustrated at times with an endless slew of new nominations and very little discussion of previous nominations. As such, we are asking you (yes, you!) to tell us what you think of two nominations that we aren't ready to make a decision on. Please help us by discussing...

--> S
--> A+
Please don't discuss: Meowth.
Last edited:
A+ -> S

Diglett is a great mon, it offers great utility in trapping key threats for your team so your sweeper or type spam can clean up the match. As well as revenge killing the majority of the metagame with a kinda strong STAB Earthquake or forcing something to take the nuke that is Tectonic Rage. As well as having a last attempt support move in Memento or suicide Stealth Rocks, Diglett + Sweeper is a strong archetype in the metagame.
This is great, this is why Diglett is A+. No other pokemon could fill provide this kind of offensive support.
But in the same way that Diglett can support his sweeper, he can outright be set up bait for the opponents sweeper. Diglett is often put in situations where it has to revenge kill a threat (Because your sweeper relies on it) only to have you opponent take advantage of Diglett's poor stats and boost up. (Timburr, Vullaby, Shellder, even Treecko) At this point, Diglett has limited options, and can either sacrafice it self with memento (Sometimes you have to before they even use their set up move) or switch out and hope you still got an answer to that smashed Shellder/boosted Snivy.
On top of this, it's sets have individual problems.
Groundium Z/Life Orb makes your EQ stronger, able to revenge or trap healthier mons. But then you'll die to anything faster than you. Focus Sash gives you two full turns to trap something but then Diglett is weak, only able to kill a pokemon like Foongus when it's at 28 - 40% and EVEN THEN hazards make your item useless.
Your third move, which Diglett barely even uses is the choice between Sludge Bomb/Rock Slide and they both has its advantages and weaknesses but the point here is that you don't really care. Rock Slide hits flying types.. that aren't scarfed or named Vullaby (Cause then it'll set up) and even then, only has a 6% chance to OHKO Doduo or you could use Sludge Bomb to hit Cottonee on the switch. (It has to be the switch or it'll just encore your EQ)
All these minor problems plus the big one. (Diglett is frail as fuck. It can't switch into pretty much anything outside of resisted hits from slow pokemon or Electric moves.) make it not worthy of S tier.
Diglett is amazing, teams have to consider Diglett when building. But it does not run the metagame. When pokemon have to run stupid niche coverages moves just to hit Diglett or run items like Air Balloon, then you can call Diglett S tier, but that will not happen.

A -> A+ -

Abra is amazing. Everyone knows this, theres a handful of posts on this thread already telling you how amazing this mon is.
But in case you forgot what Abra is. It is a frail Psychic that offers no defensive support but is able to plow teams with its coverage and ridiculous power. Abra is this, and has always been this. The only difference now is that it has counter. Abra has gone from a pokemon that you have to be careful with to fully utilize to a pokemon you need TWO answers to on a team, because one will die.
Otherwise you can pray that your Staryu wins the speed tie, or Abra will destroy your team.
This mon should be A+. I want to see reasons why it shouldn't. It is balls easy for any team to use, and is guranteed to hit at least something before it dies. It is impossible for this mon to be deadweight.

...(Unless your Diglett let Shellder set up lol)
Last edited:
Diglett is incredible. Had high usage throughout SPL, does all the shit it did before and Groundium lets you get off a kill against most things which eases building. Not to mention the literal ton of options it has that people have used throughout SPL and more (don't think i really need to expand on this). I honestly don't get why this PKMN isn't S; pretty sure most would agree it defines the tier more than Mienfoo, lol...

Abra and gastly I touched on my previous post (though gastly wasn't mentioned maybe it could be added for the next cycle or whatever? I think that's how it works) move those guys up


literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
D rank needs a cleaning. All of these I'm suggesting for unranked if that wasn't clear.

Crabrawler. It's even really directly outclassed, it's just bad. Unlike the various other good Fighting types of the tier, it lacks Knock Off, which heavily impacts its viability due to not being able to support the team or wear down its checks and counters as effectively. It's able to beat Mudbray, yes, but that's honestly not enough for it to remain ranked. With all the other very good fighting types in the tier it's hard to justify using Crabrawler at all.
Diglett-Alola. Man this guy is not very good for a variety of reasons. It doesn't have a lot of power, it's still very frail, and while 19 is a great speed tier it means that Diglett-A loses to Diglett A+ (the good one) and ties with several pokemon it would rather outspeed and land a KO on like Ponyta and weakened Staryu. It has some theoretical use but it sees no real usage for a good reason - it's very bad.

Growlithe. This is probably one of the more controversial ones, but frankly Growlithe just isn't really cut out for the current meta. Fire types in general aren't particularly great right now, and Growlithe is no exception. Intimidate is a good ability, but Growlithe just faces too much competition from the better Ponyta and Larvesta for a defensive Fire Type.

Munna. This thing is for Baton Pass and is horrific everywhere else. Baton Pass, while not an absolutely irredeemable team strategy, isn't nearly as effective as it was last gen and hasn't proven itself like it did last gen. Overall Munna, due to being pretty much completely unable to function outside of Baton Pass and Baton Pass's general lack of effectiveness, should be unranked.

Piplup. Yes, it has Defog and Stealth Rock. If you really want hazard removal and hazards in a Water type, Kabuto is much better. Piplup lacks attacking power, bulk, and speed in anything above middling levels. I've yet to see anybody use it effectively and overall you're better using one of the many other far more effective hazard removal Pokemon in the tier.

Poliwag. Poliwag has Belly Drum, 19 speed, and Hypnosis. Those are the good points. Poliwag also has only 60 accuracy with Hypnosis, loses to the not uncommon Pumpkaboo and Ferroseed, and is revenge killed by LO Diglett who outspeeds it. Also most Choice Scarf users outspeed and KO it. It's just not very good, and you're better served by using Magby or Zigzagoon if you need a Belly Drum sweeper.

Yungoos. This thing is absolutely awful. Stakeout is an amazing ability, but Yungoos is an awful pokemon that cannot make up for it. It's horrifically frail, slow, and its attacks are only strong when boosted by Stakeout due to its merely good 70 base attack. You're significantly better served by using Bunnelby who hits hard all the time.

Meanwhile Squirtle should be taken out of Smog Frog and moved to normal unranked. It's definitely not a good enough Pokemon for D rank, but it's significantly more usable than the other pokemon in Smog Frog. Z-Celebrate is usable if not great, and keeping it in Smog Frog is just mean to OP.
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)