Announcement LC Suspect - Sticky (Not Banned)

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Coconut

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While webs has been on the cusp of a suspect for some time now, in recent months it has risen to become arguably the most centralizing force in the metagame. Prominent abusers including Grookey, Scraggy, Nasty Plot Vullaby, and Woobat have a large portion of their checks hindered or shut down by web support, since they become drastically more difficult to revenge-kill offensively. Meanwhile, otherwise justifiable webs counterplay options such as fast immunities and removal are rare and, more importantly, tend to have poor matchups against the most common web abusers. Without a reasonable means to reliably handle minor variations to a build of Dewpider + hyper offensive threats, the meta has come to be dominated by this archetype, often resulting in those games being decided on team preview if a specific sweeper can’t be checked. While all of these web teams involve Dewpider, we do not believe Dewpider’s own perks to be a major draw to the webs archetype; other web setters would be able to support web sweepers nearly as well. Though these developments came before the DLC, we do not believe the meta shifts from the DLC have affected Sticky Web's strength significantly.

If Sticky Web ends up being banned, we are likely to revisit the Cutiefly ban, as one of the core strengths to the Pokemon was that it was a prominent webs setters. We are likely to suspect other things that are problematic in the metagame currently than revisit Cutiefly.


The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
7850
78.249
78.448
78.647
78.846
7945
79.244
79.443
79.642
79.841
8040
80.239
80.438
80.637
80.836
8135
81.234
81.433
81.632
81.831
8230


For this suspect test, we will be using the regular LC ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with WEBLC to qualify. When you have reached the requirements, click here (not posted yet) to post your proof. Sticky Web will be legal on the ladder until the suspect is over. The suspect period will end on Sunday, November 8th, 11:59 PM EST.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process.
3. Be respectful.

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.
 
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Kipkluif

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Guess we'll actually start discussion here.
At the point of writing this, I haven't reached reqs, so I encourage people who do to correct me or give other insights.
During this suspect, hyper offe sive setup teams have been everywhere. They have not all been using Sticky Web, however; sweepers like Scraggy, Woobat and Nasty Plot Vullaby perform just as well with screens support and are even dangerous as a wincon on balance teams. Dewpider's poor speed and it being entirely dependent on water type moves to deal any significant damage make it a tradeoff that's not always worth it, especially when the sweepers have been just as dangerous without it's Sticky Web support, as nothing unboosted outspeeds Scraggy after a Dragon Dance or Vullaby after a Weak Armor activation. Meanwhile Grookey utilizes strong priority which also makes revenge killing it offensively hard regardless of Sticky Web being on the field or not. If I were to vote (and again, I do not meet the reqs for that now), I would say that Sticky Web should not be banned.
 

ironwater

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Hello there, I saw that there wasn’t much posts here, so I decided to give my opinion on sticky web. I’m not a Little Cup main so I apologize in advance if some things I will say are not totally accurate. Feel free to correct me and give your thoughts too.

When I began to try the suspect (that I haven’t finished yet), I looked a bit at the metagame and wonder myself why is sticky web strong to the point of being suspect tested.

The first question you may ask is who are the web setters. They are only 3 of them as Cutiefly and Swirlix are currently banned. Thus, we are left with :dewpider: :blipbug: :grubbin:

Blipbug’s stats are so bad that I never saw one (apart from the mono bug (troll) team). The two other mons are way more usable with Dewpider being far more used then Grubbing mainly because of water bubble and icy wind.

Indeed, most webs teams run Dewpider as their webs setter with the following set:

dewpider.gif


Dewpider @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Bubble
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 20 Def / 36 SpA / 180 SpD / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Sticky Web
- Icy Wind
- Giga Drain

I won’t go over the very specific spreads but mainly the idea is to safely drop your sticky web thanks to your sash and prevent mons like vullably to defog with a reducing speed move like icy wind. Surf is also here to deal huge damages thanks to Water Bubble.

The main counter to this seems to be Archen as you have access to Dual Wingbeat and Rock Blast that ignore Dewpider Sash by hitting several times.

Archen seems really strong in tier. However web teams are not harmless against him as most of them run Magnemite. Magnemite can anti lead Archen and as it survives to both its multi hits moves and to Earthquake because of Sturdy + Berry Juice. Thus, you basically have a free Volt switch that will kill the Archen on a stay in or allow you to switch in Dewpider and set the web. Magnemite is also extremely frequent in web teams because it’s a kindy slow but strong hitting mon that threaten defogger and spinner like Staryu with Volt Switch.


Ok so with :magnemite: we have one web abuser. Know let’s have a look at who are the other abusers.


The first I can think of is :pawniard: As Magnemite, Pawniard is a strong hitter that lack a bit of speed. In addition, its access to Defiant + Sucker Punch make Defog a really dangerous move. Your opponent is pretty much damned to choose between not removing the web and dealing with a +2 Pawniard. Lastly, Pawniard helps to deal with other web teams with Defiant (and so is really good even outside of web teams).


Another mon that really benefit from sticky web is :vullably: As you all know, Vullably is extremely strong in the tier. In web teams, he is mostly played with Nasty plot as a set-up sweeper as thanks to web + Weak Amor it becomes almost impossible to outspeed it.


Continuing with the set-up sweeper, we have :scraggy: Scraggy role is basically to set up a dragon dance and then snowball thought the opponent team thanks to Moxie. Web helps him to outspeed faster Scarf users making him even more threatening.


The last I wanna highlight is the :grookey: with :woobat: combo. Grookey is definitely a huge threat. Of course, it has a great priority, but web allows him to go for extremely strong Wood Hammers leaving your opponent team with big holes. He is often played with Grassy Seed Woobat who is an amazing cleaner thanks to Simple. Woobat also benefit a lot from web because it basically allows him to outspeed most of the tier and set up its Calm Mind more safely.


Of course, they are other web abusers as almost any offensive mon is good with web. From the games I’ve played in the tier, I feel that sticky web is extremely strong as in the tier, teams are mostly offensive.

Thus, I think that Sticky web deserves to be banned from Little Cup.

Hope it wasn’t too long and I wish you good luck for reaching the reqs if your still trying to have them.
 

Fc

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Intro:

I might be a little bit behind as I recently got back into Little Cup so I haven't seen any long term effects of webs if there have been any, but after getting reqs I thought I might as well make a post about it to help make up my mind. I used webs to get reqs, and the team was good, but I don't see how the move is banworthy, and I think the team style if anything is just really good, but not too overwhelming for the tier currently. Going off the previous post a bit, there's only 3 web setters in the tier. Of those 3, there's only 1 that's used commonly afaik, being Dewpider. So in practice, the suspect is debatably targeting 1 move on 1 strong mon and 2 not as strong mons , which I don't think is worth a ban despite the strength of the move generally being high. By itself, webs is a solid move for a team. It lets certain offensive Pokemon thrive more than on normal offense because they can abuse the speed drop, but webs as a playstyle also has its flaws in certain mu's, and I think if common Pokemon can work together to take on the overall strat, even though it's very good and can win games, it's just something to prep for since there are multiple already viable ways to deal with it.

The Abusers:
No doubt the strength of webs lies in its abusers, and they're very solid at it. I'll just go over a few, most of the ones I used during my run with the team linked in this post, but I'll try and touch on a few others I don't have much experience with but seem threatening.

:pawniard: allows for webs teams to not be as weak to defog, which is fairly massive considering it's a strategy based on an entry hazard. Getting defogged on isn't always a terrible thing if Pawniard is open to deal a lot of damage, so like with most offense teams, Pawniard fits right in as an anti removal Pokemon as well as a strong rocker / breaker.

:archen: is a good mon overall, letting teams anti-lead opposing webs which I'll get to later. It has solid coverage with edgequake and flying STAB while also having roost to ignore it's defeatist being as game ending to it. Generally hits hard and can improve its max 17 speed not outpacing faster mons with the use of webs, so overall solid.

:scraggy: is insanely threatening, won a lot of my games just due to moxie snowballing games and it needing just 1 dd to outspeed even scarfers aside from flying ones like Vullaby. This thing is insane, pretty hard to beat outside of fairies like spritzee that are healthy and hoping it's not carrying coverage for them. Greatly benefits from webs, but is dangerous on its own with the right support.

:magnemite: surprised me when using it, the utility with sturdy is very good if webs can keep rocks off, and it is a great way to chip Pokemon with volt switch or flash cannon while trading your berry juice which can be recycled later. Not a sweeper, but is solid as a pivot and with it's average speed getting buffed up it's pretty good on webs.

:vullaby: is very threatening with nasty plot and weak armor, with webs fixing one small weakness being it's speed tier being lower than 17's like fast mienfoo and even faster stuff like diglett, ponyta, etc. naturally without needing the weak armor boost. Not much more needs to be said, it's topping the usage stats monthly for a reason.

:grookey: + :woobat: I've seen this core on webs and think it's very solid, with Grookey being strong with priority and getting even faster with webs, and woobat being a simple sweeper with grassy seed getting a speed advantage against things naturally faster like Ponyta. These are very scary when played right in the right conditions, but manageable.

Checks:
While laddering with webs, I ran into multiple ways to deal with webs as a hazard and not its abusers, so I think it's relevant to show those as well. Anti-leads are annoying, and Pokemon that can take on a lot of abusers are also hard to get through.

:staryu: was probably the most annoying thing to face, as it can safely lead against Dewpider and click an attack into rapid spin to ignore the speed drop from icy wind and remove webs. Borderline requires an anti lead of your own because ghosts aren't exactly common to spinblock on webs. Hard to switch into usually as well, so just overall hard to deal with.

:onix: has rock blast, can always live hits due to sturdy or just boost its own speed with weak armor later on. If it gets more than 2 hits on a lead Dewpider webs are denied, it's overall not bad at this.

:archen: has rock blast and dual wingbeat, can take out Dewpider on lead and heavily threaten common webs abusers like vullaby with rock blast or magnemite with earthquake.

:spritzee: is able to wall a lot of common abusers like scraggy, vullaby, archen, etc. Paired with a steel resist, it's hard for webs teams to get sweeping with walls like this around.

EDIT:
I forgot to add in one other anti-hazard Pokemon I ran into that is also recommended in the strategy dex when using a bulky attacking set,
:timburr: + defog. This combo is one of the few that threatens out Pawniard while having defog, and is a fairly safe way to remove webs while using defog instead of having to risk giving Pawniard a boost without being able to deal with it. It's tanky and can usually take on Magnemite as well while picking off Pokemon like Scraggy, defense dropped Vullaby, etc. and taking some hits here and there, solid to remove webs in the face of the team's anti defog measures.

Conclusion:
Overall, I think while good, sticky web is manageable. It has good abusers like normal offense, just enables a few that have the power but lack a little speed which makes it potentially more deadly. At this point in time with the experience laddering I had, I will be voting do not ban on sticky web. The ways to deal with it are common and good Pokemon, and it just requires prep and good play like against all playstyles imo.
 
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dcae

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Without a reasonable means to reliably handle minor variations to a build of Dewpider + hyper offensive threats, the meta has come to be dominated by this archetype, often resulting in those games being decided on team preview if a specific sweeper can’t be checked.
Prominent abusers including Grookey, Scraggy, Nasty Plot Vullaby, and Woobat have a large portion of their checks hindered or shut down by web support, since they become drastically more difficult to revenge-kill offensively.
Without a reasonable means to reliably handle minor variations to a build of Screens + hyper offensive threats, the meta has come to be dominated by this archetype, often resulting in those games being decided on team preview if a specific sweeper can’t be checked.

Prominent abusers including Grookey, Scraggy, Nasty Plot Vullaby, and Woobat have a large portion of their checks hindered or shut down by screens support, since they become drastically more difficult to revenge-kill offensively.

.

In other words this whole suspect is, as I've expressed elsewhere, a scapegoating of an enabler of the actual suspect worthy and broken threats. These include brokens such as Scraggy, Grookey, probably Woobat, Vullaby pre-DLC (which should probably be given a chance with all the new Rock types we got through DLC).

Tons of players are experiencing similar levels of success with screens as with webs running the same set-up mons. Most standards now run these same threats too with similar success, although the strategy is different. Yet to be fully explored is the Dwebble HO + threats archetype, but thus far it has proven to be remarkably effective as well.

The fact is the shared broken factor is the setup threats in LC rn. The fall of Abra and deleted Hidden Power has led to a meta that is primarily exploited by these setup threats. Banning webs will do nothing but distract from the real issue at hand, making this suspect unnecessary and quite frankly a waste of everyone's time.

Webs has not been a "dominant force" in the meta. In fact, the new DLC has hurt webs with the arrival of Archen, which is another form of webs counterplay. The timing of this suspect is shoddy, as the new mons have not even had a chance to settle in. This feels like an entirely reactionary suspect to the webs usage in snake, which for the record has not even been clear cut dominant there either, nor have the wins necessarily been due to webs themselves. There is a real argument that Screens + the above threats is better in the current meta.

Overall, I was disappointed to see this suspect, but not surprised.
 
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