Gen 6 LC Viability Rankings 2.0

Fiend

the hound.
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credit to PKGaming and FlareBlitz for the idea; run by Celestavian, Fiend, Shrug and QuoteCS

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Welcome to the LC viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. An initial tier list has already been made; if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted, but please make sure you have a proper understanding of the current metagame before doing so. Bad/basic posts will be deleted, and repeated offenses may be punished by infraction. However, asking questions about why certain Pokemon are ranked where they are is acceptable.

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Viability Ranking Council
For more controversial cases, the viability ranking council will vote on the Pokemon's tiering.

Celestavian
Fiend
Shrug
Quote


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Tier List

Without further ado, here is the initial tier list with the rough definitions of each tier (note: Pokemon are ordered alphabetically).

S-Rank
Reserved for the very best Pokemon in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
S

[analysis=diglett]Diglett[/analysis]
[analysis=mienfoo]Mienfoo[/analysis]
[analysis=pawniard]Pawniard[/analysis]
[analysis=porygon]Porygon[/analysis]

A-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.
A+

[analysis=fletchling]Fletchling[/analysis]
[analysis=foongus]Foongus[/analysis]
[analysis=magnemite]Magnemite[/analysis]
[analysis=shellder]Shellder[/analysis]
[analysis=timburr]Timburr[/analysis]
[analysis=vullaby]Vullaby[/analysis]

A

[analysis=abra]Abra[/analysis]
[analysis=carvanha]Carvanha[/analysis]
[analysis=chinchou]Chinchou[/analysis]
[analysis=cottonee]Cottonee[/analysis]
[analysis=gastly]Gastly[/analysis]
[analysis=gothita]Gothita[/analysis]
[analysis=ponyta]Ponyta[/analysis]
[analysis=snivy]Snivy[/analysis]

A-

[analysis=archen]Archen[/analysis]
[analysis=corphish]Corphish[/analysis]
[analysis=croagunk]Croagunk[/analysis]
[analysis=drilbur]Drilbur[/analysis]
[analysis=ferroseed]Ferroseed[/analysis]
[analysis=omanyte]Omanyte[/analysis]
[analysis=snubbull]Snubbull[/analysis]
[analysis=spritzee]Spritzee[/analysis]
[analysis=staryu]Staryu[/analysis]
[analysis=tirtouga]Tirtouga[/analysis]

B-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. Their niches are often slightly smaller than those that are in A and S rank, which leads them to face some competition for a teamslot.
B+

[analysis=aipom]Aipom[/analysis]
[analysis=dwebble]Dwebble[/analysis]
[analysis=hippopotas]Hippopotas[/analysis]
[analysis=larvesta]Larvesta[/analysis]
[analysis=munchlax]Munchlax[/analysis]
[analysis=onix]Onix[/analysis]
[analysis=scraggy]Scraggy[/analysis]
[analysis=skrelp]Skrelp[/analysis]
[analysis=vulpix]Vulpix[/analysis]

B

[analysis=bellsprout]Bellsprout[/analysis]
[analysis=bunnelby]Bunnelby[/analysis]
[analysis=cranidos]Cranidos[/analysis]
[analysis=doduo]Doduo[/analysis]
[analysis=elekid]Elekid[/analysis]
[analysis=houndour]Houndour[/analysis]
[analysis=pancham]Pancham[/analysis]
[analysis=pumpkaboo-super]Pumpkaboo-Super[/analysis]
[analysis=riolu]Riolu[/analysis]
[analysis=surskit]Surskit[/analysis]
[analysis=taillow]Taillow[/analysis]
[analysis=torchic]Torchic[/analysis]

B-

[analysis=amaura]Amaura[/analysis]
[analysis=clamperl]Clamperl[/analysis]
[analysis=deerling]Deerling[/analysis]
[analysis=honedge]Honedge[/analysis]
[analysis=magby]Magby[/analysis]
[analysis=shellos]Shellos[/analysis]
[analysis=slowpoke]Slowpoke[/analysis]
[analysis=stunky]Stunky[/analysis]
[analysis=tentacool]Tentacool[/analysis]
[analysis=zigzagoon]Zigzagoon[/analysis]

C-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.
C+

[analysis=aron]Aron[/analysis]
[analysis=anorith]Anorith[/analysis]
[analysis=axew]Axew[/analysis]
[analysis=buneary]Buneary[/analysis]
[analysis=chespin]Chespin[/analysis]
[analysis=darumaka]Darumaka[/analysis]
[analysis=frillish]Frillish[/analysis]
[analysis=kabuto]Kabuto[/analysis]
[analysis=lickitung]Lickitung[/analysis]
[analysis=lileep]Lileep[/analysis]
[analysis=numel]Numel[/analysis]
[analysis=rufflet]Rufflet[/analysis]
[analysis=sandile]Sandile[/analysis]
[analysis=sandshrew]Sandshrew[/analysis]
[analysis=snover]Snover[/analysis]
[analysis=trapinch]Trapinch[/analysis]
[analysis=trubbish]Trubbish[/analysis]
[analysis=tyrunt]Tyrunt[/analysis]
[analysis=wynaut]Wynaut[/analysis]

C

[analysis=bulbasaur]Bulbasaur[/analysis]
[analysis=dratini]Dratini[/analysis]
[analysis=exeggcute]Exeggcute[/analysis]
[analysis=geodude]Geodude[/analysis]
[analysis=inkay]Inkay[/analysis]
[analysis=koffing]Koffing[/analysis]
[analysis=meowth]Meowth[/analysis]
[analysis=natu]Natu[/analysis]
[analysis=pumpkaboo-small]Pumpkaboo-Small[/analysis]
[analysis=purrloin]Purrloin[/analysis]
[analysis=spinarak]Spinarak[/analysis]
[analysis=teddiursa]Teddiursa[/analysis]
[analysis=venipede]Venipede[/analysis]

C-

[analysis=budew]Budew[/analysis]
[analysis=cubone]Cubone[/analysis]
[analysis=goldeen]Goldeen[/analysis]
[analysis=karrablast]Karrablast[/analysis]
[analysis=larvitar]Larvitar[/analysis]
[analysis=machop]Machop[/analysis]
[analysis=mankey]Mankey[/analysis]
[analysis=mantyke]Mantyke[/analysis]
[analysis=nosepass]Nosepass[/analysis]
[analysis=remoraid]Remoraid[/analysis]
[analysis=shelmet]Shelmet[/analysis]
[analysis=togepi]Togepi[/analysis]
[analysis=wingull]Wingull[/analysis]
[analysis=wooper]Wooper[/analysis]
[analysis=zorua]Zorua[/analysis]

D-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are generally bad in the LC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their occasional use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Their niche is often so tiny, that they are not worth using the majority of the time.
[analysis=binacle]Binacle[/analysis]
[analysis=bronzor]Bronzor[/analysis]
[analysis=cacnea]Cacnea[/analysis]
[analysis=ekans]Ekans[/analysis]
[analysis=finneon]Finneon[/analysis]
[analysis=froakie]Froakie[/analysis]
[analysis=gible]Gible[/analysis]
[analysis=Glameow]Glameow[/analysis]
[analysis=grimer]Grimer[/analysis]
[analysis=golett]Golett[/analysis]
[analysis=growlithe]Growlithe[/analysis]
[analysis=helioptile]Helioptile[/analysis]
[analysis=litleo]Litleo[/analysis]
[analysis=mime jr.]Mime Jr.[/analysis]
[analysis=munna]Munna[/analysis]
[analysis=oddish]Oddish[/analysis]
[analysis=pineco]Pineco[/analysis]
[analysis=piplup]Piplup[/analysis]
[analysis=poliwag]Poliwag[/analysis]
[analysis=shroomish]Shroomish[/analysis]
[analysis=skiddo]Skiddo[/analysis]
[analysis=smoochum]Smoochum[/analysis]
[analysis=solosis]Solosis[/analysis]
[analysis=totodile]Totodile[/analysis]
[analysis=treecko]Treecko[/analysis]
[analysis=voltorb]Voltorb[/analysis]
[analysis=wailmer]Wailmer[/analysis]

Smog Frog Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are atrocious in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have no place on any serious team.
:pirate: Everything else

Azurill
Baltoy
Beldum
Chimchar
Cyndaquil
Duskull
Eevee
Feebas
Flabebe
Krabby
Magikarp
Pumpkaboo (Large & Medium)
Rattata
Squirtle
Tyrogue
Yamask


Possible points of discussion:
 
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Celestavian

Smooth
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Moving forward, here are some of the discussions on potential moves from the end of the last thread:

Tirtouga: B+ -> A-
Ponyta: A+ -> A
Charmander: Unranked -> D
Vullaby: A- -> A

If you've got some opinions on these or want to make some nominations of your own, feel free to post!
 
shruggod said:
I'm nominating Goldeen to C+, from its current position at C-. Goldeen has a bunch of good traits that make it more viable than its current position would indicate. To start, it provides one of the most useful Chinchou stops in the current metagame with Lightning Rod. While sadly unable to use the +1 boost afforded by a Lightningrod suckup of an electric move due to an ultrabad SpA (35 base), Goldeen comes in nice and easy on a resisted Water attack or absorbed Electric move and goes to work. With Dark / Water / Ground / Bug coverage, it threatens a ton of mons and can open people up with Knock Off. It successfully comes in to a bunch of other mons and poses a threat - pure Water with an Electric immunity is a good defensive typing.

In terms of stats, Goldeen's are surprisingly adequate to contend in Lc. Max/Max+ Attack/Speed is 16/17, reaching the common speed tier of many high-tier lc mons and hitting hard. I personally drop Speed to 15 (fuck ties) and run 116 Def Evs, hitting 14 in that stat, which tanks an awful lot of things pretty well. My set ends up with 21 / 16 / 14 / x / 12 / 15, which does a lot in the meta. It 2hko's Foongus with Megahorn after Knock Off, does the same to Foo with Waterfall, bonks Chou with Drill run, etc. It takes little damage from Drain Punches, etc, and is likely to avoid the 2HKO from Drillbur's EQ if you keep rocks off the field.

Goldeen is certainly comfortable in a tier with Lileep, Pump-Small, and Koffing. It has strong attacks, comes in decently easy, and has utility with Knock Off. I think it's a solid C+ mon.
hi this wasnt discussed Im glad theres a new platform for it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-223977762
^ for you doubters naysayers and haters this is goldeen putting in work vs The Avalanches . Celestavian pls take note of how Goldeen KOs timburr. Also I beat Goao with it but no replay because he was using an lc open team. So consider goldeen.

Tirtouga: B+ -> A- - i supported this in the old thread
Ponyta: A+ -> A - Diglett is too menacing and benefits from Pony's old job of eating uturns
Charmander: Unranked -> D - run literally anything else
Vullaby: A- -> A - i tend to find this pokemon very exploitable and momentum-conceding but maybe I use it wrong or play it well, the on-paper bulk is formidable
 

apt-get

How cute.
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
hi this wasnt discussed Im glad theres a new platform for it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-223977762
^ for you doubters naysayers and haters this is goldeen putting in work vs The Avalanches . Celestavian pls take note of how Goldeen KOs timburr. Also I beat Goao with it but no replay because he was using an lc open team. So consider goldeen.

Tirtouga: B+ -> A- - i supported this in the old thread
Ponyta: A+ -> A - Diglett is too menacing and benefits from Pony's old job of eating uturns
Charmander: Unranked -> D - run literally anything else
Vullaby: A- -> A - i tend to find this pokemon very exploitable and momentum-conceding but maybe I use it wrong or play it well, the on-paper bulk is formidable
Honestly, the only thing TA did with that goldeen was choking around and switching every turn...

I don't see how that proves goldeen is good.
 
eh i mean vulla does fuck over a lot of teams and it knocks off spritzee's evio on teams that rely on that to check it so thats great. honestly it's really annoying to some teams but otherwise it's just another defogger that can hit hard and wall things; kinda feels like a momentum conceder and sr weak doesnt help but A i defos wouldn't mind because that thing is really fucking annoying for some teams. Knock Off + Brave Bird annoys a ton of shit and heat wave bops pawniard (which can't retaliate sufficiently quickly enough) so ya, vulla to A sounds nice.
 

Rowan

The professor?
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"vullaby is a momentum killer"

wtf, does no-one but me use u-turn or something. the best set is clearly knock off, brave bird, uturn, roost with max atk. nothing is switching into knock off, and 23/14/14 defenses (76 invested in SpD) allows it to be bulky, decently fast, and powerful. Nothing really wants to switch into its BB/knock off, and u-turn just makes it so good at pivoting and gaining momentum because of the amount of mons it forces out. It is one of the best switchins/checks/counters to abra, timburr, croagunk, foongus, gastly, snivy, pancham, as well as just generally checking random stuff (some of the most threatening mons in the meta on that list)

it can even use heat wave>uturn if you don't wanna be walled by pawniard, making roost archen like the only decent switchin.

bump it up to A
 
My opinions on the discussion points
Tirtouga B+ -> A- Disagree: Tirtouga is a mon of many roles, wether it be as a shell smash sweeper, or a defensive rocks setter, but in both roles I find it slightly outclassed by other mons. As a defensive rocks setter, I find it to be outclassed by archen, as Tirtouga only has sturdyjuice over archen, while archen 1. Hits a lot harder, 2. Can control hazards with defog, 3. Has a better form of recovery with roost that it can use more than once, 4. Has a better stab (acrobatics.) Tirtouga has a shell smash set that it can utilize as well, but I find that set to be less effective than some other smashers, namely omanyte, who hits a lot harder, and shellder, who can break sashes and subs with icicle spear and rock blast.
Ponyta A+ -> A Disagree: In this new age of diglett, it is hurt somewhat by the constant threat of being trapped, but it still does its job of coming in and burning physical attackers and outrunning things with its amazing 19 speed tier. In my experience, its actually a nice partner to diglett as it cripples fighting types and U-Turn spammers that diglett can not switch in on well.
Charmander Unranked -> D: No opinion. Keep it unranked.
Vullaby A- -> A agree: Don't worry Rowan I use U-Turn Vull as well.
Vullaby is a mon that is very hard to switch into as it can launch off high powered knock offs and Brave birds, but it can just as much good defensively as well, as it can get rid of hazards for volt-turn teams as well as beat goth and abra if it is LO, and its variety of sets and usefulness of all if its sets put it on the same level as archen and vulpix for me and make it a clear cut above A- rank.
 

Mambo

busy solving mysteries
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On mobile rn

Vullaby to A for all the reason mentioned above

Charmander should definitely jump to D, especially if you're considering how fucking strong it is under the sun. It has a solid Speed tier, absurd power if paired with Vulpix / other Sun-user. If I had more experience with it, I think I'd even try to push it up higher but even just on paper it's a threat.

Ponyta should probs drop, Diglett everywhere pretty much renders it useless, it's not that difficult of a Pokemon to nab momentum on and trap.

I still think Tirtouga struggles way too much in the current meta, I've only found consistent success smashing with it under Sand and it's coverage doesn't account for all of its common checks. It should stay where it is.
 
Ponyta: A+ -> A : agree it's still good but not that good with the buff of diglett and since even if it deals great with many physical mons, it's 2hko easily with sr (or without sometimes) by lots of scarf mons (foo scarf for example)
Vullaby: A- -> A agree : this thing has an incredible bulk, a great offensive power on both side (special with nasty plot and physical), and even if its job is limited against voltturn + sr
 
Can we drop pancham down again? It's like the only fighter that cant actually check pawn, and the sd set is done better imo by lo sf burr (underrated af set). Its niche is literally parting shot and even then 99% of the time i'd rather use foo or a memento user.

edit: This is a bit nitpicky but this is the 3rd viability ranking thread
 

Rowan

The professor?
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Can we drop pancham down again? It's like the only fighter that cant actually check pawn, and the sd set is done better imo by lo sf burr (underrated af set). Its niche is literally parting shot and even then 99% of the time i'd rather use foo or a memento user.

edit: This is a bit nitpicky but this is the 3rd viability ranking thread
nah mate, B+ is fine for pancham. no other fighting type tears apart defensive cores in the way that pancham does. it is a super wallbreaker and definitely should be recognised as one in the B+ tier

e: we should make a new thread often, it seems to help with activity lol
 
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Max Carvalho

Que os jogos comecem
I strongly disagree with A rank Pony. I've used it in pretty much all forms and it never fells a liability, even if Dig is around. Ponyta being able to easily handle Foo and Pawn (altho Foo can work around it), two S rank threats is amazing, and a reason why it's hard to build without considering Pony as a component. Ponyta is simply the best physical attacker check in the metagame, and I think A is very underselling.
Agree on Vullaby, ez. Choice Scarf gets free kills on Foo, and very solid cleaner, giving a shit to priority outside of Fletch :o
Charmander too, altho I could see it C-.
Tirtouga is A- material, comparing it to the other set up sweepers in B+ (there are many tbh), Tirt has much more autonomy, SturdyBj unbroken can sweep with Abra around, the ultimate set up sweeper stomper. Solid Rock also grants it a neat bonus against Mach Punch, and if your team doesn't have forms of hazard removal, Solid Rock fits just fine. Also being a switch in to burd is very valuable, so bring it to A-.
 

Rowan

The professor?
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Can we drop pancham down again? It's like the only fighter that cant actually check pawn, and the sd set is done better imo by lo sf burr (underrated af set). Its niche is literally parting shot and even then 99% of the time i'd rather use foo or a memento user.

edit: This is a bit nitpicky but this is the 3rd viability ranking thread
actually the first one was just split in half. levi's first post in the thread was made into the OP and any post before that was split off and locked... if we're being nitpicky
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Hey can we raise the bar a little bit for the lower ranks again? I had to scroll though the rankings and saw that there's still a metric tonne of C/D rank mons. Most of them have some kind of niche, but you wouldn't use them unless you were specifically trying them out. Sure it might not be exactly in the spirit of the old thread, but hey new thread new leader new policy????

Mons in D that could go to unranked because why would you use them on a serious team.

Azurill: I remember that you said once Rowan that people make a stink about moving Azurill down because it has Knock Off and does well under TR. I still fail to see pretty much ANY reason to use this thing over Bunnelby other than maybe that it gets a couple resistances from its fairy typing. Other than that, Bunnelby has a higher attack stat (by 4 after huge power) almost equivalent defenses, it can run IVs and and nature to still get 9 speed for TR teams, and has a better movepool (despite not having Knock Off). Maybe if Azurill had play rough or something it'd be good, but as it stands it has non-STAB Waterfall to use. Seriously, this should go down, because even though it has somewhat of a niche, you just wouldn't use it.

Cacnea: It's a fun mon to use, but it's just too slow and not bulky enough for its great offensive stats. While Sucker Punch is great priority, it's not STAB leaving it kind of weak. It's not terrible on paper, but I've never seen somebody use it well.

Finneon: It has defog I guess? I don't really think Finneon is performing well as a defogger in most matches due to having no recovery and being vulnerable to all entry hazards in exchange for being one of the few defoggers not weak to rocks. I can't see much reason to use it over Staryu or a defogger like Vullaby. If it beat Pawniard that would help its case, but it can't due to being too weak. U-turn is nice and all, and it has decent defensive stats, but it's not good.
48 SpA Finneon Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Shroomish: It gets spore, fantastic. Why would I use it over Foongus, who has a better ability in regenerator and better offensive presence? Granted, Shroomish has slightly (SLIGHTLY) better physical defense, can run a physically based attacking set, and isn't quite as slow (still losing to pretty much every relevant thing though) but overall it's just plain outclassed by Foongus. Even Poison Heal sets, while somewhat interesting for providing an immunity to status and recovery every turn, have major issues due to losing Eviolite.

Smoochum: It has the highest special attack of all ice types in LC. However this shouldn't say anything about how good smoochum is, but instead how bad in general ice types are in LC. Smoochum has good special attack and decent speed, but has horrific defenses. It also isn't quite as fast (or as powerful if you run scarf) as you would like in a mon this frail. Could it be usable? I guess so, but I've never even heard of somebody using it, let alone using it well. It's fine in LCUU but in LC it's not good. This is something I'd kind of like good replays for instead of theorymoning.

On that kind of note, I'm opposed to charmander moving up to D. Outside of sun it's horribly outclassed by almost every other fire type, and just in general I'd rather use stuff like Houndour or Ponyta, since even though they're slightly less powerful (only under sun!) they also perform consistently without the sun. The original nomination mentioned doing well with a charmander team, but I'd really like some replays to see what it does in a match.
 
I've used Charmander before in conjunction with a Sun team, and it did some work, but less than what a Houndour or something else would. It only has a small nice and I would barely support its rise to D Rank, but to be honest it does have a small niche. Its power underneath sun is tremendous, and it puts in some work, and no I do not have replays.

Honestly, this could go either way Charmander is on the borderline of being completely outclassed and having a niche.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Torchic for B+
Torchic, I feel, is very underrated and powerful in the current meta. Torchic is mostly known for it's Speed Boost and Curse/SD passing shenanigans, and that's pretty good, as he has pretty nice bulk with Eviolite. But what I feel is the set that makes it B+ is the offensive LO set. This set makes use of Torchic's good 70 special attack and high powered moves like Fire Blast coupled with LO and Speed Boost to potentially become a wrecking ball and sweep late game. While this means that Torchic doesn't take hits very well, it still has nice resistances to types like Fairy and Grass so it can switch in on some stuff. It can use Protect to get a safe Speed Boost off, or it can Baton Pass out of a bad situation and pass Speed to his teammate, so the teammate can also wreck house. Torchic can also go mixed to use coverage like Low Kick and Rock Slide. Torchic has a few problems keeping it from the A rank, though. First of all, as I've already stated, without an Eviolite his bulk is subpar, and he struggles to break some special walls and faces competition from other Fire types like Houndour and Ponyta, but due to Speed Boost, he can differatiate himself from them. He also has a nasty SR weakness, which coupled with the Life Orb, can wear him down easily. He also doesn't like the recent influx of Diglett and Fire types, and he can't touch bulky waters. But Torchic still has a lot of good points, with his Speed Boosts and his power, that imo makes him deserve a rise to B+.
 
Hi !

I want to talk about 2 mons : Growlithe and Tyrogue.

Growlithe : D -> B-/C+ : Growlithe is outclassed by Ponyta, okay. But he's not unusable. Growlithe has a superior bulk to Ponyta, the same movepool, Intimidate, but lacks of speed. But, with that, he's one of the best counters to our dear bird Fletch, where Ponyta can be 2HKOed on switch-in, if Flame Body doesn't activate. He can handle lots of things in LC (except Pawn / Archen / Diglett in physical attackers).

Tyrogue : Unranked -> D / C- : Wait, I have 35 BS in all my stats ? F*ck it ! I'm the only one who could have Fake Out + Mach Punch + Bullet Punch. Besides that, I have High Jump Kick, Guts and Rapid Spin. I think Tyrogue could be a pretty cool priority attacker, thanks to Guts. He can revenge kill many mons, and can potentially beat Mienfoo in 1v1. But Guts brings him a real power.

What do you think about that ?
 
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fran17

aka eterno
Growlithe is fine at D rank, it can't really switch on physical sweeper because almost all of them can kill him with coverage or just switch out with u-turn due of its low speed, and it doesn't have access to Flame Body so they don't risk a burn. It also can't switch on pawniard without giving him a free boost.
 
Togepi C- -> C+/B-

Is a creative counter to the figh spam with good evs, thunder wave and a variety of healing moves like wish, soft boiled or heal bell.
This mon can be offensive with nasty plot, flamethrower/fire blast, dazzling gleam and soft boiled.
It can be a great mon, but spritzee and snubbul are more used than this =(
 

The Avalanches

I guess they never miss, huh?
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Togepi C- -> C+/B-

Is a creative counter to the figh spam with good evs, thunder wave and a variety of healing moves like wish, soft boiled or heal bell.
This mon can be offensive with nasty plot, flamethrower/fire blast, dazzling gleam and soft boiled.
It can be a great mon, but spritzee and snubbul are more used than this =(
If Snubbull and Spritzee are more splashable and viable than Togepi as Fighting-type counters, why would I ever use Togepi to do that? Although Togepi's typing is decent for checking a variety of foes, its niche lies in the role it plays on Baton Pass teams, in addition to being able to slow-pass Nasty Plot on other teams. It's a specific niche and Togepi is good at C-.
 

Sken

choose wisely
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The main Ponyta niche is being a perfect pawniard switch in, while Growlithe isn't. I think Growlithe is fine in D. Also I disagree with Ponyta A+ to A since it is from far the best physical wall in the tier and it's really versatile.
 

Merritt

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Tyrogue : Unranked -> D / C- : Wait, I have 35 BS in all my stats ? F*ck it ! I'm the only one who could have Fake Out + Mach Punch + Bullet Punch. Besides that, I have High Jump Kick, Guts and Rapid Spin. I think Tyrogue could be a pretty cool priority attacker, thanks to Guts. He can revenge kill many mons, and can potentially beat Mienfoo in 1v1. But Guts brings him a real power.
Considering my recent request to raise the bar for D rank I feel like this is a good thing to respond to.

Tyrogue is complete and utter trash and completely outclassed in any role it tries to play. PriorityMon is done much better by Croagunk, HJK is done better by any mon that gets HJK, Guts is done better by Timburr, and Rapid Spin is so horribly outclassed by Staryu, Sandshrew, Drilbur, and others that it's almost laughable. I'd honestly rather use Bergmite as a rapid spinner than Tyrogue, since it at least gets recovery.

Let's discuss Tyrogue's many failing points. The first, and most obvious, is that Tyrogue's stats are terrible. At best (236+ investment) it can hit 14 in a stat. That means that even completely uninvested Mienfoo hits harder than Tyrogue. Its defenses are also some of the worst in the meta. Unless you run 236/236+ investment in a stat with Eviolite, Tyrogue is at worst 3HKOed by almost every neutral hit. Tyrogue also has almost no EVs to spare, if it doesn't go 236+ in attack it hits about as hard as a wet paper bag and if it doesn't go 236 in defenses it crumples as hard as a wet paper bag. Guts is a fine ability, sure, but if Tyrogue wants to even start denting things it needs that boost, unlike Timburr for whom it's just a nice bonus.

Tyrogue has exactly one moveset that helps it (slightly) stand out, the 3 Priority+HJK set. And it's godawful. Fake Out and Bullet Punch both do almost nothing to every Pokemon in the meta, even with Guts helping.
236+ Atk Guts Tyrogue Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 8-10 (42.1 - 52.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
236+ Atk Guts Tyrogue Bullet Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 7-9 (38.8 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

These are the two physically frailest Pokemon in the meta, and Tyrogue can't even reliably 2HKO either of them (granted it can beat Diglett due to Mach Punch). Even if Tyrogue was an OHKO machine with its priority, it suffers from heavy reliance on guts to do any damage (236+ Atk Tyrogue Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 5-7 (26.3 - 36.8%) -- 15.5% chance to 3HKO) and is also slow and frail as hell, meaning that any opposing priority is going to take out Tyrogue.

Tyrogue belongs to the shortlist of mons who are so lacking in redeeming qualities that it makes me cry when people suggest using them in any serious capacity. Just... Don't ever use this mon. I close with the overview of BW Tyrogue (and nothing's improved for it since then).

Smogon Dex said:
Tyrogue is almost never seen in Little Cup. This is mainly due to his terrible stats. He has a decent movepool with many priority moves, but his low Attack stat means he's not very effective at using them. He is almost completely outclassed by nearly every other Fighting-type as well. Overall, Tyrogue is an incredibly weak Pokemon that is not worth using at all.
 
As someone who's actually used tyrogue, the best set is hjk/mach/rs/thief @ bj with 20/14/11 bulk. triple prio is awful. it's pretty bad but it does have a niche as a spinner who can semi-consistently beat pump (thief 2hkoes if tyrogue switches in on a wow) while checking pawn at the same time. hjk off of 12 attack hits slightly harder than foo/timburr drain punches. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather use burr 99% of the time but I wouldnt be entirely opposed to moving it to D.
 

tcr

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Moving forward, here are some of the discussions on potential moves from the end of the last thread:

Tirtouga: B+ -> A-
Ponyta: A+ -> A
Charmander: Unranked -> D
Vullaby: A- -> A

If you've got some opinions on these or want to make some nominations of your own, feel free to post!
Honestly, I really think that Tirtouga deserves to be / stay A-. No matter how you look at it, it is still a fantastic threat in the metagame, luring in things like Mienfoo and Timburr with a +2 Zen Headbutt, or simply being a fletchling pivot with the Scald SR set, or even running the Solid Rock SS set to fuck with common threats. It struggles to break through some cores like FerroSpritz, or even PorySpritz at times, but that's true of any sweeper really, its not meant to be a mid game sweeper, where everyhting still has their eviolite and things like Spritzee / Porygon aren't even worn down a lot. Its diverse enough to warrant a spot in A, B should honestly be for Pokemon that are decent but only have one defined role, i.e. Zigzagoon only runs Belly Drum, Corphish is only a sweeper, Hippopotas is only a SR wall, their sets are often extremely predictable. Tirtouga is not predictable, with a total of 3 on site sets, and many more different spreads and roles that people don't always use, such as special Solid Rock Tirtouga, or SS+SR.

Ponyta can go down, its really ineffective imo to use on a team, due to the overwhelming pressure of Diglett. I never really thought it was all that great to begin with, since its reliant on extreme hazard control due to its typing and pivoting nature. Unless you run Wild Charge you really can't touch common Pokemon like Skrelp, its really easy to wear down with its most common move having recoil, and can often even lose pressure due to relying on Morning Sun, similar to Larvesta.

Lol please don't put Charmander in the rankings...

Vullaby is a cool mon, I think a rise to A woul do good for it, for reasons stated above.
 

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