Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0

I nominate Lileep
for B+.

Lileep has extremely good defenses (being able to "outbulk" Vullaby with 77 and 87 base defenses, and 66 hp (Which reaches the same number as Vullaby's base 70). Allthough it's typing makes it weak to the ever so common fighting types, and also a weakness to steel, it makes up for that with Storm Drain, granting it an immunity and a well appriciated Sp.atk boost from water type moves, as well as resistance to Electric. Lileep's resistances aren't the important issue, besides making it THE best Chinchou counter in the tier, as well as makes it able to counter other common water types (even those with ice beam if they are running a bulky set) such as Staryu, Tirtouga and Slowpoke (Not as common as the others but still a threat imo).

It's grass typing also grants it immunity to Spore, and the less common Stun Spore, making it one of the safest switch-ins to Foongus and Cottonee.

Lileep has a wide movepool, which most notably includes Stealth Rocks, Recover, Giga Drain, Earth Power, Sludge Bomb, Toxic, Rock Slide and Seed Bomb. It can also utilize moves like Mirror Coat, Curse, Stockpile, Swords Dance and Rock Polish with success ( 067jox did a video on the latter 2 options, check it out if you will, video at the bottom).

With said moves and stats, it can safely switch in on big threats in this metagame like Chinchou, Staryu, Tirtouga, Spritzee, Porygon, Foongus, Cottonee, Abra, Carvanha, Ponyta, Archen, Drilbur and Snubbull, as well as many B+ and below pokemons.

It can also threaten out each of these pokemons with a move, besides Foongus, which is where Mirror Coat can be a useful option, allthough not reccommended.

With moves like Earth Power and STAB Giga Drain, it can also hit common switch-ins hard, such as STAB Giga on everything not resisting, or Earth Power on Pawniard and Magnemite.

Most notable sets:


Pixar (Lileep) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Storm Drain
Level: 5
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Earth Power / Sludge Bomb / Ancient Power
- Stealth Rock / Ancient Power / Sludge Bomb

For 26 hp / 16 defense / 18 sp.def

or a spread of:
EVs: 228 HP / 220 Def / 60 SpD
Bold Nature

for 26 / 18 / 16

or
EVs: 228 HP / 28 SpA / 220 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature

For 26 / 8 / 14 / 13 / 19 / 9

I will base my calcs on the two premier sets, showing calcs from each poke on each variant of the 16/18 spread. Some of the lower damage calcs will make no difference between the 2 sets, hence there will only be 1 calc listed on the sp.def variant.

0 SpA Staryu Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 8-10 (30.7 - 38.4%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%)
200 SpA Staryu Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu: 14-18 (70 - 90%)
If Staryu runs an offensive LO set then it is still a threat sadly, which means there will be some predicting involved:
200 SpA Life Orb Staryu Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staryu: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%)

0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 6-7 (23 - 26.9%)

0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 4-6 (15.3 - 23%)
0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 6-7 (23 - 26.9%)

0 SpA Lileep Earth Power vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 5-6 (20 - 24%)
Mirror Coat seems like the better option here, unless:
0 SpA Lileep Hidden Power (Fire) vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 6-8 (24 - 32%)

0 SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 2-3 (7.6 - 11.5%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 76 HP / 148 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 12-14 (48 - 56%)
232+ SpA Choice Scarf Chinchou Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Choice Scarf Chinchou: 18-24 (75 - 100%)

212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%)
212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD sturdy Tirtouga: 20-20 (95.2 - 95.2%)
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 16-21 (61.5 - 80.7%)
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 15-18 (57.6 - 69.2%)


12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 7-9 (26.9 - 34.6%)
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 6-7 (23 - 26.9%)

0 SpA Lileep Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 10-12 (37 - 44.4%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 6-7 (22.2 - 25.9%)

0 SpA Porygon Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 6-7 (23 - 26.9%)
These are rather sad imo, as Lileep have to bank on Pory not having Ice Beam to pose a threat, and threaten out with a Toxic. Ice Beam isn't the most common move on Porygon tho, so here are the next best calcs:
0 SpA Porygon Psychic vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 5-6 (19.2 - 23%)

0 SpA Cottonee Dazzling Gleam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 4-6 (15.3 - 23%)

0 SpA Lileep Sludge Bomb vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Cottonee: 20-24 (90.9 - 109%)

240 SpA Abra Hidden Power (Fighting) vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%)
240 SpA Abra Hidden Power (Fighting) vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 8-10 (30.7 - 38.4%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abra: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%)
If rare LO:
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Hidden Power (Fighting) vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-13 (38.4 - 50%)

196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Ice Fang vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 10-13 (38.4 - 50%)
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Ice Fang vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%)

196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%)
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Carvanha: 24-30 (114.2 - 142.8%)

76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%)
76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%)

0 SpA Lileep Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 12-14 (57.1 - 66.6%)


180 Atk Archen U-turn vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%)
180 Atk Archen Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 10-13 (38.4 - 50%)
180 Atk Archen Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Ancient Power vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%)

236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%)
236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%)

196+ Atk Snubbull Play Rough vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 7-9 (26.9 - 34.6%)
196+ Atk Snubbull Play Rough vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 36 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Snubbull: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Sludge Bomb vs. 36 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Snubbull: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%)

And yes Gen 5 was my favourite gen thank you for noticing


IN CONCLUSION:

  • Lileep has one of the higest split defenses in the tier.
  • It has the defenses to switch relatively safely in on several top threats, and threaten them out, even taking some +2 hits.
  • It has access to reliable recovery (Recover), and good support moves.
  • Great ability for stopping water types and potentially gaining a boost to further threaten switch-ins.
  • Can also run offensive set up sets with Curse, Swords Dance or Rock Polish.

If it was up to me Lileep would be A- or A but I guess that's a bit of a stretch going from C+.
Ok so I agree with a lot of this, but not once in here do you mention it is outclassed by foongus in many respects. First of all, Regenerator is EXTREMELY strong right now as it keeps up a bit of momentum for offensive teams, allows for essentially passive recovery and lets it form a good core with the most common mon in the meta right now: Mienfoo. Furthermore, Foongus also checks Fighting-types, Fairy-types, and other Grass-types as well as checking Water and Electric-types like Lileep. The only really advantage of Lileep's typing is that is resists Normal-types and is neutral to Fletchling Acro. But not only is Lileep outclassed by Foongus, it is also heavily outclassed by the commonly looked over Ferroseed. Ferroseed not only resists many, many, many more types than Lileep, it also fulfills the job of hazard stacking much better, by countering Onix, Tirtouga, and other hazard stacking Sturdy users with Bullet Seed while also being able to spike stack. It also spreads paralysis and has a higher Defense stat than Lileep. Honestly, I don't think Lileep deserves B+ by any means as it is outclassed by both of these common Bulky Grass-types. But you did bring up some good points about being the best Chinchou counter. In my opinion: Lileep for B- Oh and I don't see the point of using Lileep > literally any other bulky sweeper because it has one of the worst physical movepools for a sweeper I've ever seen :/
 
Ok so I agree with a lot of this, but not once in here do you mention it is outclassed by foongus in many respects. First of all, Regenerator is EXTREMELY strong right now as it keeps up a bit of momentum for offensive teams, allows for essentially passive recovery and lets it form a good core with the most common mon in the meta right now: Mienfoo. Furthermore, Foongus also checks Fighting-types, Fairy-types, and other Grass-types as well as checking Water and Electric-types like Lileep. The only really advantage of Lileep's typing is that is resists Normal-types and is neutral to Fletchling Acro. But not only is Lileep outclassed by Foongus, it is also heavily outclassed by the commonly looked over Ferroseed. Ferroseed not only resists many, many, many more types than Lileep, it also fulfills the job of hazard stacking much better, by countering Onix, Tirtouga, and other hazard stacking Sturdy users with Bullet Seed while also being able to spike stack. It also spreads paralysis and has a higher Defense stat than Lileep. Honestly, I don't think Lileep deserves B+ by any means as it is outclassed by both of these common Bulky Grass-types. But you did bring up some good points about being the best Chinchou counter. In my opinion: Lileep for B- Oh and I don't see the point of using Lileep > literally any other bulky sweeper because it has one of the worst physical movepools for a sweeper I've ever seen :/
Foongus outclasses Lileep when it comes to counter Fairies and Fightings yes, but Foongus and Lileep have very different roles, and very different counters, which is why they are so very different eventhough they seem alike on paper. Foongus main job is taking fighting moves and fairy moves aimed at Mienfoo in said core, while the latter one Mienfoo can handle very well itself. Both struggle with Flying types tho, which is where Lileep is great. It has the typing to only take neutral damage from Fletchling, Archen and Vullaby's STAB moves, hence making it a decent counter with it's eviolite intact (Vullaby even without evio). It also get's Ancient Power to mess them up severly. Foongus also have a weakness to Psychic types that Mienfoo shares with it, which Lileep doesn't, and yet again is a great switch in to the common Abra.

So yes, as you mentioned, Regenerator is a better ability in this metagame than Storm Drain, and especially for a bulky mon that is likely to switch in and out alot, and Regen+Regen is very scary and very threatening. Then again, if an Abra comes in on the field, or Archen, what is your switch? Lileep covers weaknesses and gives Mienfoo Stealth Rock support, while Foongus switches in on strong hitting threats that tbh a Slowfoo can handle itself and Foongus can Spore.

Now outside of the Mienfoo synergy, let's compare Foongus and Lileep.


  • Both have resistances to Electric and Water
  • Both have some sort of recovery, both reliable in their own way (Regenerator and Recover)
  • Both have good support moves, but usually run the same support moves (Lileep with Stealth Rock and Toxic, Foongus with Spore and sometimes Stun Spore)
  • Both are immune to Spore themselves, and can function as a Fairy counter (Foongus somewhat better due to typing)
  • Both are excellent against the ground types in the tier
Differences

  • Lileep can counter the flying, fire and psychic types that are common in this metagame, as well as it's other resistances.
  • Foongus can counter the Fighting types in the tier.
  • Lileep can stay in for a long period with it's recovery move, but have to be aware of hazards when coming in.
  • Foongus can not stay in for a very long time, but heals itself when switching out, so hazards aren't as big a problem.
  • Lileep can be worn down with Toxicpoison, Foongus can not.
  • Lileep has access to STAB Giga Drain and Ancient Power, as well as Sludge Bomb and Earth Power for coverage moves.
  • Foongus has access to STAB Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb.
While both are main counters to Chinchou, Staryu, Cottonee and Tirtouga due to Grass typing, Foongus mainly counters Timburr, Scraggy, Mienfoo, Spritzee and Snubbul, while Lileep mainly counters Fletchling, Archen, Vullaby, Abra and Ponyta.

So I would say that yes, Foongus can be better than Lilleep for some teams, but Lileep can also be better than Foongus for other teams. I would you're wrong when you say that they are much alike and that Foongus outclasses Lileep, as they are as different as Mienfoo and Timburr, with only the typing and some moves in common. Foongus is, for many of my teams at least, a HORRIBLE replacement for Lileep, as they cover very different aspects of the tier and very different roles, despite their similarities.

On your point with Ferroseed, Ferroseed has access to dual hazards, as well as a great steel typing. Ferroseed lacks reliable recovery though, and have a 4x weakness to fire. Ferroseed can counter many of the same pokemons as Lileep, but is not as strong as lileep (Barely tho, 50 atk vs 61 sp.atk), and can not come in as many times due to lack of recovery, and is weak to the eversocommon Hp Fire (Foongus, Gothita, rare Meowth), while there is no such Hidden Power that can threaten Lileep. Lileep also have the superior ability, not being shut down by Scald burns, and can switch in on Fire types. Ferroseed can switch in on Pawniards tho (or can it? Idk haven't used it enough to test). And what with that Sturdystacking? Onix outspeeds both Lileep and Ferroseed, so even if you get the lucky 1hko on Onix with Bullet seed on Ferroseed, Stealth Rocks will still be up. Lileep is guaranteed to take some damage tho, but can heal that up with Giga Drain, so why would it matter?

Sludge Bomb/Ancient Power once, then Giga Drain on the Sturdy pokemons. If you run Earth Power+Giga Drain, then just spam Giga Drain, should still win you the game. And on a small sidenote, Lileep also have access to Bullet Seed ;)

I do however agree that Lileep is not the best bulky sweeper, but that's something else that your precious Ferroseed and Foongus can't do. I think my point stands,
Lileep for A- / B+ ??
 
So most of your points make sense although you fail to see the roles of certain Pokémon. For example, you mention that Liverpool OHKOs sonic after Stealth Rocks, but Onix is primarily a lead so how could it take said Rocks damage. You also mention that Foongus and Liverpool have very different roles, but do they? Foongus is not primarily a Fighting/Fairy check, but instead it is a Bulky Grass type with good support moves like Spore and Clear Smog. Looking at Lileep, it fulfills a very similar role with Stealth Rocks and Recover, so how do they fulfill very different roles. A type doesn't define a mon. You also fail to understand what a counter is. Many times during your argument you call Lileep a counter to threats like Fletchling or Ponyta but is it really? A counter is a mon that switches into any hit from any set from a certain mon no matter what. (For example Lileep counters Chinchou.) But the calcs under show how much damage fletch acrobatics does with and without a Swords Dance up:

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%) -- 84.5% chance to 3HKO
(7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)

+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 16-19 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19)

These calcs show that Fletchling is likely to 3HKO Lileep unboosted and will always 2HKO when boosted. This means Lileep should not switch in on Fletch unless it isn't going to be used later in the game, as it can only neuter Fletch before it does to Acro. The only exception to this is if it is used as a revenge killer, but that can only be used unboosted. Finally you also mention how Ferro has less Attack power for their respective stats, but they both use 12 Attack/SpA in their common sets. For these reasons I stand by Lileep for B-
 

Merritt

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I just would like to point out that Fletchling can beat Lileep with incredible reliability when Lileep attempts to counter it unless rocks are up, and unless Lileep is running the 28 SpA spread can even outstall Lileep with moderate effectiveness for sets that don't run both Toxic and Ancient Power.

0 SpA Lileep Ancient Power vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the issue (28 SpA has the same calc). If Lileep switches in on Fletchling using any attack other than Roost, it will lose that 1v1 without rocks up.

+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 16-19 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even on a free switch into Fletchling, Lileep is helpless from preventing Fletchling from U-turning to knock off a third of Lileep's HP and switching into Mienfoo to utterly annihilate Lileep.

And there's the rub, Lileep is an almost 100% goddamn free switch for any eviolite Mienfoo.

28 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)
(0 SpA is the same roll)

That's regen damage. Mienfoo can come in as long as it's still got Eviolite (and most likely even if it doesn't) and forces Lileep out. It gives up virtually all momentum to the opponent as long as they have a Mienfoo which wouldn't be an issue if foo wasn't one of the single most used pokemon in LC.

Unlike Foongus (since for whatever reason the two of you decided to directly compare them) Lileep necessitates Mienfoo removal to be effective. Foongus is fairly standalone, and while Foongus also has its counters like Vullaby those are significantly easier to wear down due to lack of regen and sludge bomb's high poison chance alongside Foongus' wildcard move.

Is Lileep B- material? Maybe, it was there for a while before it moved down due to lack of general effectiveness and rejected last time it was proposed to be moved because it still wasn't very effective last time it was nominated. It's certainly not A- or B+, but in my opinion looking at it it really does still fit into that B-/C+ cusp group including stuff like Lickitung and Chespin. Honestly Lileep is probably the best of that group, so I wouldn't be opposed to B-, but in practice it's always felt around the same kind of effectiveness as Frillish or Sandshrew (obviously not on exactly the same team, they're not identical roles).

It's better than Trubbish though, can we kick that down another level to C?
 
1. A counter is a pokemon that can repeatedly switch in and threaten out a pokemon. Being 3hko'd is a poor counter or good check, but if a pokemon has reliable recovery, then that is a counter, ESPECIALLY in LC where almost every mon is 2hko'd by most moves unless heavily resisted. I do however think that your point on fletchling u-turn into a mienfoo is a good point. But If we consider everything that can u-turn into a counter in such a way, wouldn't every single pokemon that learns u-turn/volt switch be impossible to counter?

2. Assuming every Fletchling runs an SD set though, wich they don't, but I have to admit I did not consider people Swords Dancing then U-turning, which will hurt alot yes. But that again is how VoltTurn teams works, gaining momentum through Volt Switch and U-Turn, and this will happen to everything that tries to switch in on Fletchling/Mienfoo/random pokemon with U-Turn. Lileep has a weakness to U-Turn though (Bug type) sadly, but still only takes around 30-40% which is good considering it's Super Effective.

3. I am not the one generalising roles based on types here H0W3AN, you're the one putting them in the same boat as bulky grass types. I do, however, consider the different types of pokemons they can switch in on, and what they do as support mons, which is very different. Not going to repeat myself on that point.

4.
For example, you mention that Liverpool OHKOs sonic after Stealth Rocks, but Onix is primarily a lead so how could it take said Rocks damage.
I don't know what your point here is? Mine was that weither you lead with Foongus, Ferroseed or Lileep, Onix will get Stealth Rocks up NO MATTER WHAT because Onix is faster, I don't think I mentioned Lileep OHKOing Onix after Rocks? I did, however mention that if you Sludge Bomb/Ancient Power, you do minimal damage to break Sturdy, then Giga Drain to heal back up.

5.
And there's the rub, Lileep is an almost 100% goddamn free switch for any eviolite Mienfoo.

28 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)
(0 SpA is the same roll)

That's regen damage. Mienfoo can come in as long as it's still got Eviolite (and most likely even if it doesn't) and forces Lileep out. It gives up virtually all momentum to the opponent as long as they have a Mienfoo which wouldn't be an issue if foo wasn't one of the single most used pokemon in LC.

Unlike Foongus (since for whatever reason the two of you decided to directly compare them) Lileep necessitates Mienfoo removal to be effective. Foongus is fairly standalone, and while Foongus also has its counters like Vullaby those are significantly easier to wear down due to lack of regen and sludge bomb's high poison chance alongside Foongus' wildcard move.
Merritt Ofcourse Lileep is an almost free switch in to it's counter, that is one of the reasons it is a counter. Shame it is the most common pokemon in LC, but it wouldn't have been if it didn't counter other pokemons as well. The thing is, bar Timburr/Mienfoo/Scraggy, what really wants to swith in directly? On a U-turn, a Croagunk or Pawniard or Magnemite can switch in, but that's about it. These can also switch in on literaly every other pokemon S and below if brought in freely through U-Turn, and only Timburr/Mienfoo/Scraggy can switch in freely on Lileep without any worries. Your point about bringing in mienfoo freely on a u-turn can apply to every single pokemon in this metagame, they all got pokemons that counter them easily enough if brought in on a u-turn, and every single pokemon in this metagame have a pokemon that can freely switch in on them without any worry about damage. Mienfoo can switch in on especially many threats this way, due to it's high speed, Drain Punch, coverage moves, decent bulk and Regenerator, but because there is ONE SINGLE pokemon like this, is that enough reason for Lileep to be put down to B- / C+ ? It is a single pokemon, and can easily be countered by other strong pokemons.

6.
Unlike Foongus (since for whatever reason the two of you decided to directly compare them) Lileep necessitates Mienfoo removal to be effective. Foongus is fairly standalone, and while Foongus also has its counters like Vullaby those are significantly easier to wear down due to lack of regen and sludge bomb's high poison chance alongside Foongus' wildcard move.
Lileep can easily switch in on Chinchou/Staryu/Vullaby while Mienfoo is still around, as it will still negate damage done to other team members. That might just be the way I'm using my walls though I don't know.

Lileep also get's Sludge Bomb as a viable option, and is easily it's "wild card move". Lileep also have more options for last slot than Foongus does (As mentioned in first/second post not entirely sure), and does not depend as much on it's STAB moves bar Giga Drain. Just mentioning this because 1. Regen is a bitch, you are quite right about that but 2. Lileep can also poison on switch in with Sludge Bomb which makes it easier to wear down counters.


Somehow we do however end up fighting over the same mons over again. Foongus and Lileep comparison (Ferroseed not considered anymore), Mienfoo counters Lileep (already knew that and mentioned I think), SD Fletchling most likely wins but is dead meat afterwards. Even if Lileep is not countered, that is 1 pokemon of the list of many things this metagame that Lileep threatens, so not a huge loss tbh, and I do not think that 1 pokemon of that long list should be enough to knock it down from potential A- to B-.

Agree on Trubbish, fuck that lil shit he supposed to be our saviour against Knock Off + Drain Punch fighting types but dies to them nonetheless.
 
Last edited:

Nineage

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So, I did my best to follow the arguments here, but I had a lot of trouble following, I think in part due to a lot of weird false reasoning used on both sides. Because of that, I'm going to kind of go back to the beginning on this one.

Lileep's role in the metagame is as a wall (this isn't really disputable). Therefore it should be compared to other Pokemon based on what it can check and counter, how reliably it does it, whether anything else can check and counter what it can better, and how common the pokemon it checks and counters are. Then, we should examine its role in the greater metagame.

What it beats:
The list of Pokemon you provided that Lileep checks is "Chinchou, Staryu, Tirtouga, Spritzee, Porygon, Foongus, Cottonee, Abra, Carvanha, Ponyta, Archen, Drilbur and Snubbull". Of these, I would say Lileep counters all Chinchou, Foongus, Carvanha, Ponyta, Drilbur, and Archen sets. I would also add Vullaby to this list. Life Orb Staryu beats Lileep, SS Tirtouga can just set up until it wins if rocks aren't intact, Spritzee clicks Calm Mind a bunch of times and gives no cares, Cottonee can lock Lileep into a recovery move with Encore and stall it out, Life Orb Abra has a pretty decent chance at winning, and Close Combat Snubbull reliably 2HKOs.

What does this better:
The short answer is, there is a Pokemon that checks each subset of those Pokemon that has greater viability than Lileep. Snivy and Foongus check Drilbur and Chinchou (and sort of Carvanha), and have offensive presence and Spore, respectively. Ferroseed checks every Pokemon on the list except Ponyta (and some weird Foongus variations), and can stack spikes. Chinchou beats Chinchou (ban this please) and Ponyta, and is an excellent pivot. The key thing to note, here, is that every one of these Pokemon can check a subset of what Lileep can without losing momentum. And this is the recurring theme of this post, and the reason that Lileep should stay exactly where it is: in an offensive metagame, most teams cannot take the momentum loss that Lileep creates at the expense of defensively checking some Pokemon that could be checked without losing momentum. However, I do concede that Lileep might be the only way to counter that list of Pokemon that reliably. This gives it a niche, and is the reason Lileep is ranked at all.

Lileep in the Metagame:
Lileep suffers from 3 major problems in the metagame:
1) As I discussed in the previous point, Lileep is a huge momentum killer. Unless it is up against a Water-type or weak Flying-type, Lileep's way to kill Pokemon is usually click Toxic and then click Recover a lot of times. In a metagame built around strong setup sweepers and powerful wallbreakers, this is not sufficient. Although Lileep does possess decent offensive stats for a defensive Pokemon, it can't really abuse them with Giga Drain and Ancient Power (unless you get that 10%). And yes, I know Lileep can use Curse to boost, but it doesn't give Lileep enough of a boost to keep up with setup sweepers boosting alongside it.
2) Lileep is Fighting-type bait. You conceded this point above, but you don't seem to understand the ramifications. As long as Pawniard remains in this metagame, Fighting-type Pokemon will be the absolute defining force in the metagame. Giving a free switch-in to Mienfoo and Timburr, at least one of which is on practically every well-built team in the metagame, is certainly not something that can be passed over lightly. It's not just that Lileep is weak to the Fighting-type either: its that it really just can't do anything to stop them from coming in, except poison them, or deal practically nothing with Giga Drain.
3) Lileep is dead weight when it isn't killing momentum. Basically, if Lileep isn't coming in on something which it specifically checks, it becomes dead weight. Knock Off significantly inhibits Lileep's ability to function, and it has to be wary of coming in on one (even from Pokemon it does check, like Vullaby and Archen). Most offensive Pokemon that aren't on the checks list above can simply muscle past Lileep, which is not a good thing for a defensive Pokemon. Also, many team types punish a player for using a Pokemon as passive as Lileep, such as VoltTurn, heavy offense, and really anything built around a setup sweeper not named Zigzagoon. Essentially, if Lileep is not losing momentum by doing what its supposed to do, its doing nothing at all.

I'm not saying Lileep has no qualities, and I'm not saying it has absolutely no place in the metagame. I am, however, saying that its negative qualities outshine its positive qualities enough that a bump in the rankings does not seem warranted. Also, for the future Fille, we generally only nominate a Pokemon to move up a place or two at a time, not all the way from the Cs to B+.
 
So, I did my best to follow the arguments here, but I had a lot of trouble following, I think in part due to a lot of weird false reasoning used on both sides. Because of that, I'm going to kind of go back to the beginning on this one.

Lileep's role in the metagame is as a wall (this isn't really disputable). Therefore it should be compared to other Pokemon based on what it can check and counter, how reliably it does it, whether anything else can check and counter what it can better, and how common the pokemon it checks and counters are. Then, we should examine its role in the greater metagame.

What it beats:
The list of Pokemon you provided that Lileep checks is "Chinchou, Staryu, Tirtouga, Spritzee, Porygon, Foongus, Cottonee, Abra, Carvanha, Ponyta, Archen, Drilbur and Snubbull". Of these, I would say Lileep counters all Chinchou, Foongus, Carvanha, Ponyta, Drilbur, and Archen sets. I would also add Vullaby to this list. Life Orb Staryu beats Lileep, SS Tirtouga can just set up until it wins if rocks aren't intact, Spritzee clicks Calm Mind a bunch of times and gives no cares, Cottonee can lock Lileep into a recovery move with Encore and stall it out, Life Orb Abra has a pretty decent chance at winning, and Close Combat Snubbull reliably 2HKOs.

What does this better:
The short answer is, there is a Pokemon that checks each subset of those Pokemon that has greater viability than Lileep. Snivy and Foongus check Drilbur and Chinchou (and sort of Carvanha), and have offensive presence and Spore, respectively. Ferroseed checks every Pokemon on the list except Ponyta (and some weird Foongus variations), and can stack spikes. Chinchou beats Chinchou (ban this please) and Ponyta, and is an excellent pivot. The key thing to note, here, is that every one of these Pokemon can check a subset of what Lileep can without losing momentum. And this is the recurring theme of this post, and the reason that Lileep should stay exactly where it is: in an offensive metagame, most teams cannot take the momentum loss that Lileep creates at the expense of defensively checking some Pokemon that could be checked without losing momentum. However, I do concede that Lileep might be the only way to counter that list of Pokemon that reliably. This gives it a niche, and is the reason Lileep is ranked at all.

Lileep in the Metagame:
Lileep suffers from 3 major problems in the metagame:
1) As I discussed in the previous point, Lileep is a huge momentum killer. Unless it is up against a Water-type or weak Flying-type, Lileep's way to kill Pokemon is usually click Toxic and then click Recover a lot of times. In a metagame built around strong setup sweepers and powerful wallbreakers, this is not sufficient. Although Lileep does possess decent offensive stats for a defensive Pokemon, it can't really abuse them with Giga Drain and Ancient Power (unless you get that 10%). And yes, I know Lileep can use Curse to boost, but it doesn't give Lileep enough of a boost to keep up with setup sweepers boosting alongside it.
2) Lileep is Fighting-type bait. You conceded this point above, but you don't seem to understand the ramifications. As long as Pawniard remains in this metagame, Fighting-type Pokemon will be the absolute defining force in the metagame. Giving a free switch-in to Mienfoo and Timburr, at least one of which is on practically every well-built team in the metagame, is certainly not something that can be passed over lightly. It's not just that Lileep is weak to the Fighting-type either: its that it really just can't do anything to stop them from coming in, except poison them, or deal practically nothing with Giga Drain.
3) Lileep is dead weight when it isn't killing momentum. Basically, if Lileep isn't coming in on something which it specifically checks, it becomes dead weight. Knock Off significantly inhibits Lileep's ability to function, and it has to be wary of coming in on one (even from Pokemon it does check, like Vullaby and Archen). Most offensive Pokemon that aren't on the checks list above can simply muscle past Lileep, which is not a good thing for a defensive Pokemon. Also, many team types punish a player for using a Pokemon as passive as Lileep, such as VoltTurn, heavy offense, and really anything built around a setup sweeper not named Zigzagoon. Essentially, if Lileep is not losing momentum by doing what its supposed to do, its doing nothing at all.

I'm not saying Lileep has no qualities, and I'm not saying it has absolutely no place in the metagame. I am, however, saying that its negative qualities outshine its positive qualities enough that a bump in the rankings does not seem warranted. Also, for the future Fille, we generally only nominate a Pokemon to move up a place or two at a time, not all the way from the Cs to B+.
You've summed up most of my points well, and the others ass well. I guess Lileep just really fits my playstyle, as you do have a good point on the momentum part. More fun to beat / lose to people with a C+ mon than an A-/B+ after all :) I still think that Lileep is at least worthy of a shot up to B-, but I will not argue anymore as you have better reasoning for keeping it low on the viability ranks than me and my "It fits my playstyle". I will leave it at this.
 

Coconut

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While that's a lot more of a reasonable nomination than B+/A-, I still don't think it deserves B-. Every single mon in B- is better than Lileep currently is now, and it fits very well with the current description for a C-Ranked Pokemon. I don't want to spit back details as no one wants to read that, but I'll outline the points under the assumption that people read the previous post by Nineage.

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.
Lileep absolutely has a notable niche, as stated above, but absolutely has flaws that stop it from working very well. While I wouldn't say that it always requires significant support, it does need a lot of very common things removed before it is able to successfully accomplish much. And if we're comparing it to other things, it really does struggle to find a team slot as you need to be weak to a specific list of mons and also not mind an additional weakness to another, significantly longer list of mons.

I really don't think Lileep is any better than C+ right now, and I don't agree with it being moved up.
 
Meowth should be in rank B instead of C


Five months ago, I discovered the power that is life orb meowth. Its double STAB, technician-boosted priority moves (fake out and feint) defeats every belly drummer, fletch and is overall a powerful and safe combo!
Technician not only boosts fake out and feint, it also boosts hidden power moves, bringing their subpar 60 base power to 90! Hidden power fighting can be used to nuke steel-types, dark-types (cough cough, pawniard) and rock-types! Hidden power water absolutely destroys leads ( eg. dwebble, archen, onix etc.) following a hefty hit from meowth’s fake out to break sturdy/ focus sash.
On top of all this, meowth deals with a lot of problems in the meta. It’s a perfect lead and personally I find that it is much more useful in comparison to buneary, a normal-type Fake-out user in the C+ rank. However, it is a little worse than aipom, a normal type Fake-out user in B+, so I believe that meowth should be in between these two ranks, in rank B.

Useful Moves:
Seed Bomb - Great for tirtouga and chinchou, still beats rock and ground-types
Shock Wave - Technician-boosted electric coverage
Aerial Ace - Technician-boosted flying coverage (fighting types and foongus repellent)
Knock Off - Annoying item repellent
U-Turn - Pivot
Fake out + Feint - STAB, technician-boosted, priority. Why not?
Gunk Shot - Poison coverage (get outta here cottonee)
Icy Wind - Technician-boosted ice coverage, good for killing switch-ins
Nasty Plot - Sweepsweepsweepsweep
Water Pulse - Technician-boosted water coverage, lead killer, same as HP water but you confuse
Hidden Power _ - Technician-boosted coverage

Calcs
Meowth Calcs

Meowth Fakeout + aerial ace

Mienfoo Bulky
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 196 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 8-9 (34.7 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Aerial Ace vs. 196 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 13-18 (56.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
8 + 16 = 24 enough to kill max bulk foo

Mienfoo 17 speed
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 8-9 (38 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 13-18 (61.9 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mienfoo Scarf
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienfoo: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienfoo: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

Foongus
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 8-9 (32 - 36%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Aerial Ace vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 13-18 (52 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
8 + 16 = 24 1 hp away to 1ko, with rocks its a 1ko
Meowth Fakeout + feint

Fletch
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
12 + 9 = 21, fletch is 23 with max bulk, rocks or prior takes it down, this is max bulk fletch, 15 speed fletch cannot take it

Zig
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 132 HP / 108 Def Zigzagoon: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 132 HP / 108 Def Zigzagoon: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
With the 13 roll you kill

Magby
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magby: 13-17 (65 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magby: 9-13 (45 - 65%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

After shell smash

Shellder
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. -1 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Shellder: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. -1 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Shellder: 8-9 (40 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
need prior

Clampearl
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 13-17 (65 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 9-13 (45 - 65%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Meowth Fakeout + waterpulse

Onix
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 4-4 (19 - 19%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Water Pulse vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Onix: 36-47 (171.4 - 223.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Dwebble
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 4-5 (19 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dwebble: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Archen
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 5-8 (21.7 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Water Pulse vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen: 18-23 (78.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


Hopefully I’ve convinced you that meowth is deserving of a higher viability rank. It just works so well in this meta.
 
Meowth should be in rank B instead of C


Five months ago, I discovered the power that is life orb meowth. Its double STAB, technician-boosted priority moves (fake out and feint) defeats every belly drummer, fletch and is overall a powerful and safe combo!
Technician not only boosts fake out and feint, it also boosts hidden power moves, bringing their subpar 60 base power to 90! Hidden power fighting can be used to nuke steel-types, dark-types (cough cough, pawniard) and rock-types! Hidden power water absolutely destroys leads ( eg. dwebble, archen, onix etc.) following a hefty hit from meowth’s fake out to break sturdy/ focus sash.
On top of all this, meowth deals with a lot of problems in the meta. It’s a perfect lead and personally I find that it is much more useful in comparison to buneary, a normal-type Fake-out user in the C+ rank. However, it is a little worse than aipom, a normal type Fake-out user in B+, so I believe that meowth should be in between these two ranks, in rank B.

Useful Moves:
Seed Bomb - Great for tirtouga and chinchou, still beats rock and ground-types
Shock Wave - Technician-boosted electric coverage
Aerial Ace - Technician-boosted flying coverage (fighting types and foongus repellent)
Knock Off - Annoying item repellent
U-Turn - Pivot
Fake out + Feint - STAB, technician-boosted, priority. Why not?
Gunk Shot - Poison coverage (get outta here cottonee)
Icy Wind - Technician-boosted ice coverage, good for killing switch-ins
Nasty Plot - Sweepsweepsweepsweep
Water Pulse - Technician-boosted water coverage, lead killer, same as HP water but you confuse
Hidden Power _ - Technician-boosted coverage

Calcs
Meowth Calcs

Meowth Fakeout + aerial ace

Mienfoo Bulky
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 196 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 8-9 (34.7 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Aerial Ace vs. 196 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 13-18 (56.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
8 + 16 = 24 enough to kill max bulk foo

Mienfoo 17 speed
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 8-9 (38 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 13-18 (61.9 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mienfoo Scarf
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienfoo: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienfoo: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

Foongus
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 8-9 (32 - 36%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Aerial Ace vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 13-18 (52 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
8 + 16 = 24 1 hp away to 1ko, with rocks its a 1ko
Meowth Fakeout + feint

Fletch
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
12 + 9 = 21, fletch is 23 with max bulk, rocks or prior takes it down, this is max bulk fletch, 15 speed fletch cannot take it

Zig
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 132 HP / 108 Def Zigzagoon: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 132 HP / 108 Def Zigzagoon: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
With the 13 roll you kill

Magby
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magby: 13-17 (65 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magby: 9-13 (45 - 65%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

After shell smash

Shellder
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. -1 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Shellder: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. -1 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Shellder: 8-9 (40 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
need prior

Clampearl
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 13-17 (65 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 9-13 (45 - 65%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Meowth Fakeout + waterpulse

Onix
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 4-4 (19 - 19%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Water Pulse vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Onix: 36-47 (171.4 - 223.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Dwebble
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 4-5 (19 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dwebble: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Archen
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 5-8 (21.7 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Water Pulse vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen: 18-23 (78.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


Hopefully I’ve convinced you that meowth is deserving of a higher viability rank. It just works so well in this meta.
Why is everyone trying to move mons like 3 tiers at a time. ._.

Well whatever, aside from that, some of these arguments are pretty weak. First of all, although Meowth has an extremely impressive movepool, and mixed utility, it is still usually outclassed in its status as a fast Normal-type by Aipom, which you note in this post. But, Meowth and Buneary don't play the same role! Unlike Meowth who is a powerful attacker, Buneary is a utility with Healing Wish, Klutz, Switcheroo, Thunder Wave, and as you mentioned: Fake Out. The reason Meowth outclasses Buneary as an Offensive Fake Out user yes, but Buneary is a utility Fake Out user. Also all Meowth's wide movepool does is let you pick your checks and counters. For example, if you run Fake Out/Feint/Aerial Ace/Water Pulse, Pawniard destroys you. Take out Fint for Covet and Fletchling beats you easily, Water Pulse and Onix and Dwebble, Aerial Ace and Mienfoo, etc. And, even furthermore, Timburr destroys Meowth, Aerial Ace or no:
236 Atk Life Orb Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 5-8 (20.8 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Meowth Feint vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 4-5 (16.6 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Meowth Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
116 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Meowth: 30-36 (150 - 180%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But despite all of this, I actually do agree with Meowth being moved up. In my opinion: Meowth to C+ or B-. These two tiers are commonly supported as the edge of viability, with mons like Trubbish, Trapinch, Sandshrew, Snover, Shellos, Tentacool, etc. Although Meowth has problems, it still has a wide movepool, an amazing ability in Technichian, and a great speed tier and I feel it fits the description of C+ in particular
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.
Meowth definately has a notable niche, but it does needs quite a bit support to cover its weaknesses, and is outclassed by Aipom a lot. As I said above, Meowth for C+ or B-
 
Bronzor to C

Bronzor is a user of RecycleJuice, which, when paired with its extremely adequate defences gives it great longevity. Bronzor can do some serious work on teams that don't have a solid counter to it.

Its abilities, Heatproof and Levitate especially allow it to remove a huge weakness. Its defensive typing for a meta like LC is quite poor, with weaknesses to very common attacking types such as Dark, Fire and Ground, mean it has quite a few checks, but a user of Bronzor will likely have reliable switchins to common Bronzor checks.

Access to Stealth Rock makes it a great lead, as it can defeat most other leads between its moves Earthquake, Psychic and Flash Cannon.

It can be a fantastic stallbreaker if played right, with Toxic to mess with opposing walls and a Recyclable Berry Juice which lets it have a Super-Recover that uses automatically. Again, the longevity this provides allows it to stay in for a long time against more defensive opponents and break them down with its STABs and Toxic damage.

36 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 60 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 6-7 (26 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Bronzor can Toxic a Slowpoke and then keep Recycling its Juice until the 'Poke inevitably faints to poison damage, and be at full health by the end of it.

12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 60 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 3-5 (13 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
4- SpA Bronzor Flash Cannon vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 8-12 (29.6 - 44.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
Spritzee doesn't threaten Bronzor at all. Bronzor can just use Toxic and Flash Cannon to wear it down, and the fact that it needs to Wish-Protect means you can easily predict a Protect and switch in something like a Pawniard to finish it off if you need to.

0 SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 60 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 3-5 (13 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Porygon Ice Beam vs. 60 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 3-4 (13 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
Here's the big one. Porygon, an S-tier Pokemon can't touch Bronzor, and it has no way to cure its Toxic. One of the most threatening tanks in LC is simply humiliated by a steel disc with Juice.


It does have problems with setup sweepers, as its somewhat low offensive presence makes it easy setup bait for things like DD Scraggy, SD Pawniard and even Fletchling to some extent. But, I have used a Bronzor before on a functioning team, and although it demanded a lot of support from the team's pivot at times, I think it's a decent Pokemon worthy of a solid C.
 

Fiend

perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
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Aight, initial thoughts about a lot that's been mentioned to me/here:

: So Bronzor beats Abra, Porygon, Spritzee, Slowpoke mostly, sorta checks Snubbull, usually handles Fletchling, Shellder, Diglett, non Knock Archen, and provides SR. It hates Knock Off Abra though. Pawniard, Mienfoo, Ferroseed, other knock off mons, fuck it over as a whole though. It gets set up and beat by Omanyte and half the time Tirtouga, Scraggy and Corphish ruin it, obliterated by Drilbur, Carvanha, and Vullaby, dicked over by Aipom, Cottonee, and Meowth, HP Fire Snivy, and Ponyta + Gastly reliably rk Bronzor from full. HOWEVER, Toxic gets nice chip on a lot that switches in but that's overall meh.

It comes across as extremely niche and really not usable unless you a) built a very specific team, or b) wanted to use Bronzor. Bronzor is hardly worth using over CM Goth, as Goth traps and beats more "stall mons" while still losing to the Darks and failing to trap Slowpoke. But it is usable in some instances, and it has the ability to check some very irksome mons allowing for balance teams to use Bronzor somewhat well. I think this does make Bronzor worthy of C-, as it is better than all other D mons, but it is worse than all C besides maybe Purrloin. I think it fits among Machop, Togepi, Karrablast, and Larvitar.

: Now I do want Meowth to move up, but I'm not sure how far. B+ is way too far, but B- might be too little and I'm not dead set on B either. I like what Howean said on it, though he didn't note how much Meowth can fuck over offense. With Fake Out + Feint, Meowth can somewhat make up for its 0 bulk. Hazard stack hates Water Pulse variants, while Shellder and Fletchling essentially cannot sweep with it alive. Meowth dicks over most things slower than it too, which is great. But it is weak and relies on Fake Out to secure KOs, making bulky things wall it even without an Eviolite. But Knock Off on a bulky mon is usually worth the trade off.

: Breaks stuff rather well, but you need to predict some to totally use Doduo well. Doduo also has the issue of almost 0 bulk, and hates priority. That being said Doduo does its job if it gets 1 KO, and if lead correctly does its job turn 1/2 of games. Doduo is the best mon in B and better than some of B+, but I want those mons to move down. I think it straddles the line between the two, and Vulla gives it hella competition. I would like another opinion on the matter. Shrug Shrug agrees with Levi and I that Doduo doesn't belong in B+, but is better as best mon in B.

: Munch is good enough you can use it with some mild frequency, but Porygon does its job like 80% of the time. Munchlax just really shouldn't be so high even though it isn't directly bad. It's just not great in the meta--too slow, recovery is drawn out, and BJ gets inflicted with status too often. Abra and Gastly are also rarer sights now, diminishing its prominence. B is where it belongs.

: It's been a year since I've built a team with Larvesta. I don't exactly have a reasons other than Stone Edge Foo, SR, Diglett, and Water-spam being fairly common, but I also don't know anyone who thinks Larvesta is good rn besides on dedicated Voltturn teams where its the worst mon on the team. B is where I think it fits best.

: Originally moved down because Drifloon meta gave it some hell, but it is objectively too good for B-. I don't think it should be B+ again because of the amount of team support needed and how important Steel-types and preventing set up has become due to Shellder. I'll put it in B if no one disagrees. Also: Zig is slightly more viable than perl imo, so one in B- and one in B is fine. If people want Zig in B+ then we will see about Perl moving up too.

: I genuinely have no idea why it's so high. Mono Dark is awful, no Swagger, and prio T Wave only helps so much. also: hi Caledrith

: I'll try moving this into C- again. Treecko does pretty damn well in the meta rn, since slower teams aren't too common, most of what it struggles against have great counterplay against them, and treecko does decent at setting up. But it is easy enough to play around meaning it as a sweeper is very questionable. Treecko is also able to do cool stuff like switch into Snivy's +2 Leaf Storm and then RK so it has some flexibility for creative playing so even when it cannot sweep it might do stuff.

it's also pretty cute;


Think that's it! I'll update this once I feel confident enough. Cheers
 
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GOAO

Banned deucer.
Seel: unranked-> C or C- (I'm not sure which one it should be placed in)
GOOD and BAD:Just click this link
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/seel/
Edit: Lol I feel so lazy for not typing XD
And I do know that it IS outclassed by Chinchou.
Unless it has Drill Run.
Hey, Seel. Welcome to the smogon.com Forums!
I suggest you to read the main post of this thread, made by Fiend. He says: "if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted, but please make sure you have a proper understanding of the current metagame before doing so. Bad/basic posts will be deleted, and repeated offenses may be punished by infraction. However, asking questions about why certain Pokemon are ranked where they are is acceptable." Your post is pretty basic, bud! If you think Seel is worth a better ranking, please write a more detailed post and the LC Viability Ranking moderators will certainly take your opnion while updating the LC Viability Rankings!
If you want to see some good VR posts, read this one, made by Vileman.
 
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Hey, Seel. Welcome to the smogon.com Forums!
I suggest you to read the main post of this thread, made by Fiend. He says: "if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted, but please make sure you have a proper understanding of the current metagame before doing so. Bad/basic posts will be deleted, and repeated offenses may be punished by infraction. However, asking questions about why certain Pokemon are ranked where they are is acceptable." Your post is pretty basic, bud! If you think Seel is worth a better ranking, please write a more detailed post and the LC Viability Ranking moderators will certainly take your opnion while updating the LC Viability Rankings!
If you want to see some good VR posts, read this one, made by Vileman.
Key: Red= bad
Green=good

From http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/seel/ it says, "While Seel's stats suggest that it'd perform best as a special wall, its general lack of support options leaves it outclassed by other bulky Water-types such as Chinchou. Seel's best niche is as a Perish Trapper, and while the strategy is sometimes regarded as gimmicky, Seel is the best option in Little Cup to pull it off. Seel also has a surprisingly good offensive movepool that includes several priority moves. However, it faces stiff competition from more powerful Water-types such as Carvanha and Corphish. With this in mind, it should be played to its advantages, which include better coverage moves, Fake Out, and higher bulk. Overall, while Seel faces serious competition from other Water-types in Little Cup, it can fill very specific niches that just might fit your team."

So Seel is not going to make or below than C-, but not any higher than C+. (kind of depressing for a Seel fan)
"Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot."

Good: Very specially tanky, with okay defense. It also has Fake Out which, let's face it, is pretty evil. >:D Perish Song + Whirlpool= Dead Pokemon. "Seel should execute its moves in a specific order: Whirlpool, followed by Perish Song, Rain Dance, Rest, then switch. This allows it to trap certain defensive threats such as Spritzee, Koffing, and Licktung and escape unscathed. It's important to note that if Seel switches out before two turns have ended, Whirlpool's trapping effect ends and the foe can switch out. Seel struggles to trap most offensive Pokemon, so it should stick to trapping defensive threats. If you find yourself up against a team where Seel is unable to trap any opposing Pokemon without being 2HKOed, use it as a Rain Dance setter instead and have some teammates ready to take advantage of the rain." Seel kills tanks! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No, this is not it's only role.
"While Seel's Fake Out is weak compared to other users such as Aipom and Meowth, the Fake Out + Aqua Jet combo serves as a nice tool for revenge killing weakened threats. Seel can even take out certain threats such as Abra and Berry Juice Archen that are at full health while only taking Life Orb recoil in the process. With the defensive investments, Seel is able to tank some powerful attacks with HP to spare for Life Orb recoil, such as Pawniard's Knock Off and Fletchling's Acrobatics, allowing it to hit them with powerful attacks." Well that's embarrassing for A and S ranked Pokemon. Especially if Seel is not ranked(it would still be embarrassing even if it got changed into C).

Bad:
Mienfoo: Bulky Mienfoo isn't 2HKOed by Waterfall and can recover lost health with Drain Punch and Regenerator. It also has U-turn to escape from the Perish Trapper set. (RIP)

Bulky Grass-types: Bulky Grass-types can easily switch into Seel thanks to their Water resistance. Ferroseed works particularly well because it can punish Seel's contact moves with Iron Barbs, and it only takes neutral damage from Icicle Spear. Cottonee can lock Seel into a non-threatening move with Encore, but should be wary of switching in on Icicle Spear.

Electric-types: While they have trouble switching into Seel's attacks, most notably Drill Run, Electric-types such as Magnemite, Elekid, and Chinchou threaten Seel with their STAB moves and can Volt Switch out of the Perish Trapper set.
I hope this was a better reply(probably not lol).
<-- Seel of Approval
 
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Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
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If you're going to use definitions to justify viability (a godawful reasoning, they're general guidelines) then maybe be careful not to have it potentially twisted back on you.

Here's the definition of D rank.

Reserved for Pokemon that are generally bad in the LC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their occasional use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Their niche is often so tiny, that they are not worth using the majority of the time.
And from the analysis that you have such a love of (this is why taking every analysis 100% seriously was a bad idea):

Analysis Overview said:
its general lack of support options leaves it outclassed by other bulky Water-types such as Chinchou. Seel's best niche is as a Perish Trapper, and while the strategy is sometimes regarded as gimmicky, Seel is the best option in Little Cup to pull it off. Seel also has a surprisingly good offensive movepool that includes several priority moves. However, it faces stiff competition from more powerful Water-types such as Carvanha and Corphish. With this in mind, it should be played to its advantages, which include better coverage moves, Fake Out, and higher bulk. Overall, while Seel faces serious competition from other Water-types in Little Cup, it can fill very specific niches that just might fit your team."
Perish trapping, especially when it can be avoided simply by switching the tank that cannot 2HKO Seel out on the turn that it uses Whirlpool, is not a "notable niche" and certainly isn't on the level of the niches provided by any of the C rank mons. If the argument is that nobody expects Seel to do this then that's an issue of ignorance, like saying that you didn't realize Goldeen has lightningrod and runs it. It's ranking things based on players who aren't playing optimally, like saying Scraggy should be S rank because if your opponent doesn't switch a counter in it cripples the opponent irrecoverably.

Yes, it can potentially beat higher ranked mons (usually because the opponent doesn't realize it could possibly be a threat), but then again Tyrogue can OHKO Pawniard (236+ Atk Life Orb Tyrogue Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 21-31 (100 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO), which is pretty embarrassing for an S ranked pokemon to lose to a pokemon that is "not ranked".

Does Seel technically have a niche? Yes. Is that niche worth using? More than 9 times out of 10 on a serious team Seel won't make it unless you specifically built a team around Seel. In my opinion Seel should not be ranked and if it is it should never go above D.
 
If anyone's going to do anything to any other Mons in LC, please move Nosepass up to B- rank at the very least. Nosepass is a very overlooked Mon in the tier with one huge use, and that's hazard setup. However, it also has many other capabilities. T-Wave/Rock Slide/S-Rock/Explosion Nosepass holding a Custap Berry with Adamant Nature, Sturdy, and 236 Atk/76 Def/196 SpD serves as both a hazard tool as well as a possible stall. If Sturdy activates on the turn it uses S-Rock, it can use Custap + Explosion to take out almost any Mon in the tier, with the exception of Rock/Steel types. But for those, Nosepass has Earthquake to negate Explosion's weakness to the typings. Plus, Nosepass is not a Mon that many would expect to see in a normal battle, expecting Tirtouga, Omanyte, Diglett, or other Mons to set up rocks. However, Nosepass, unlike these three, has the Sturdy/Custap/Explosion or Earthquake combo that can lead to devastation for a sweeper on the opponent's team. However, this set can be shattered by priority moves or a simple knock off from anything, though its high defensive stat can provide it with the bulk it needs to survive an average hit. Overall Nosepass' place in LC is greatly undermined, and it deserves a tier shift upwards for its bulk and strength, as well as its setup ability.
 
I'd also like to request a move for Zorua up to B rank. It's similarity to its BL2 evolution Zoroark provides it many different set options in the LC metagame including physical and special sets alike. I've run it with Life Orb/Timid and Life Orb/Jolly and both ways it has provided a sweeper that can be easily disguised as a Mon weak to psychic (Aka Gastly, one of the higher ranked Mons in the tier) and then predict a psychic attack to either setup or take out a threat. Zorua's weaknesses in fighting, bug, and fairy make for three uncommon types in the tier outside of Mienfoo, making it a good option for taking out threats or just forcing switches.
 
I'd also like to request a move for Zorua up to B rank. It's similarity to its BL2 evolution Zoroark provides it many different set options in the LC metagame including physical and special sets alike. I've run it with Life Orb/Timid and Life Orb/Jolly and both ways it has provided a sweeper that can be easily disguised as a Mon weak to psychic (Aka Gastly, one of the higher ranked Mons in the tier) and then predict a psychic attack to either setup or take out a threat. Zorua's weaknesses in fighting, bug, and fairy make for three uncommon types in the tier outside of Mienfoo, making it a good option for taking out threats or just forcing switches.
alright so zorua really isnt that good. while bug and fairy arent as common as in higher tiers, mons like larvesta, snubbull, spritzee, dwebble, etc all have definite niches and are semi-common. plus, fighting types are actually incredibly common, even outside of foo. burr is another great option, for example. furthermore, zorua's pitiful bulk means neutral hits are likely to 1hko. So, if pawn chooses to iron head the possible ghastly swtichin bc he knows u gotta zorua, bye bye (236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Zorua: 19-23 (100 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Zorua loses to most strong neutral attackers, cannot boost its speed, and is frankly rather predictable. being weak to fighting is simply not good in this meta. also, in the future don't double post, just edit your first one.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
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If anyone's going to do anything to any other Mons in LC, please move Nosepass up to B- rank at the very least. Nosepass is a very overlooked Mon in the tier with one huge use, and that's hazard setup. However, it also has many other capabilities. T-Wave/Rock Slide/S-Rock/Explosion Nosepass holding a Custap Berry with Adamant Nature, Sturdy, and 236 Atk/76 Def/196 SpD serves as both a hazard tool as well as a possible stall. If Sturdy activates on the turn it uses S-Rock, it can use Custap + Explosion to take out almost any Mon in the tier, with the exception of Rock/Steel types. But for those, Nosepass has Earthquake to negate Explosion's weakness to the typings. Plus, Nosepass is not a Mon that many would expect to see in a normal battle, expecting Tirtouga, Omanyte, Diglett, or other Mons to set up rocks. However, Nosepass, unlike these three, has the Sturdy/Custap/Explosion or Earthquake combo that can lead to devastation for a sweeper on the opponent's team. However, this set can be shattered by priority moves or a simple knock off from anything, though its high defensive stat can provide it with the bulk it needs to survive an average hit. Overall Nosepass' place in LC is greatly undermined, and it deserves a tier shift upwards for its bulk and strength, as well as its setup ability.
Have you considered trying to use Onix with this (honestly not even particularly good) set? It's not like it's any weaker than Nosepass, gets STAB on Earthquake, and is fast enough that it might be able to get an attack off if it isn't able to activate its custap berry unlike Nosepass.

This is going off the assumption that you're using EQ>Twave like you discussed for more than half the nomination.
 

Fiend

perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
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just some somewhat scrambled thoughts:

Nosepass really shouldn't move up due to the commonness of Onix and Diglett. Both of these really hurt Nosepass, as Onix is essentially a total counter and Diglett only needs some help to wear Nosepass down. Both block Volt Switch, and Earthquake doesn't do enough for Nosepass to really hold any ground against them. Nosepass also doesn't block Volt Switch like Onix does, making its typing somewhat of a large drawback instead of an advantage. Nosepass is cool, but it isn't every really a better choice than Onix, or even Geodude in most instances. I think Nosepass fits well just where it is, since in games where it isn't against a ground-type mon Nosepass can be better than Onix or Geodude with Thunder Wave and Volt Switch opportunities.

And while I do not think the way Zorua was shot down was the best logically (LO Pawn is uncommon, Zorua can pack HP Fite, the fact pointing out it loses to a mon doesn't really mean much by itself, etc), I do agree that Zorua shouldn't move up. Using Zorua is hardly anything other than a gimmick, and while it has cool uses, these are really only "surprise" oriented. This lends itself to being unreliable, and you are underestimating how common Zorua counters are. Zorua also lacks OHKO potential and does not have the same valuable speed and set up options that are needed to make up for not OHKOing much. Zorua also struggles to 2hko most of the meta, which makes is overall less valuable than it seems on paper. Zorua also doesn't really have any good things to disques as, as Croagunk is resistant to SR and can give up the gimmick, while Gastly is immune to Spikes and Sticky Web which in certain matchups gives up the gimmick too. Plus you will almost always actually want Gastly in instead of Zorua since it wallbreaks for itself so well.

Also just to make Vileman happy, do people agree or disagree with his nomination? And do people disagree or agree with Drilbur's current rank?
 
just some somewhat scrambled thoughts:

Nosepass really shouldn't move up due to the commonness of Onix and Diglett. Both of these really hurt Nosepass, as Onix is essentially a total counter and Diglett only needs some help to wear Nosepass down. Both block Volt Switch, and Earthquake doesn't do enough for Nosepass to really hold any ground against them. Nosepass also doesn't block Volt Switch like Onix does, making its typing somewhat of a large drawback instead of an advantage. Nosepass is cool, but it isn't every really a better choice than Onix, or even Geodude in most instances. I think Nosepass fits well just where it is, since in games where it isn't against a ground-type mon Nosepass can be better than Onix or Geodude with Thunder Wave and Volt Switch opportunities.

And while I do not think the way Zorua was shot down was the best logically (LO Pawn is uncommon, Zorua can pack HP Fite, the fact pointing out it loses to a mon doesn't really mean much by itself, etc), I do agree that Zorua shouldn't move up. Using Zorua is hardly anything other than a gimmick, and while it has cool uses, these are really only "surprise" oriented. This lends itself to being unreliable, and you are underestimating how common Zorua counters are. Zorua also lacks OHKO potential and does not have the same valuable speed and set up options that are needed to make up for not OHKOing much. Zorua also struggles to 2hko most of the meta, which makes is overall less valuable than it seems on paper. Zorua also doesn't really have any good things to disques as, as Croagunk is resistant to SR and can give up the gimmick, while Gastly is immune to Spikes and Sticky Web which in certain matchups gives up the gimmick too. Plus you will almost always actually want Gastly in instead of Zorua since it wallbreaks for itself so well.

Also just to make Vileman happy, do people agree or disagree with his nomination? And do people disagree or agree with Drilbur's current rank?
Agree with Vileman on Doduo but I think Drilbur should move down to B+ as although it has potential it is hardly used to that potential and can sometimes face competition for a team slot. Quick, dumbed down version since I'm on mobile
 

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