Tournament LCPl XIV - Format Discussion

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Hacker

Hacker

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LC & Draft Leader
Hey all, this year we will be having a format discussion thread for LCPL after LCBC had success with its format. Last years format was:
SV LC
SV LC
SV LC
SS LC
SM LC
XY LC
BW LC
DPP LC

What we do want discussion about:
ADV / DLC / UU
If we do add anything, they might likely have to be removed in generation 10. Are we okay with that?

Few things we aren't open to discussion about:
Removing any slots
Adding anything not ADV / DLC / UU
12 Slots

Manager signups will open around 2 weeks from now, and this thread will close sometime before that. Please keep all discussion in this thread civil and lets get ready to have fun with LCPL!
 
Hacker said:
What we do want discussion about:
ADV / DLC / UU
If we do add anything, they might likely have to be removed in generation 10. Are we okay with that?
Click to expand...


add adv, every tier has to figure out a gen 10 removal issue. we are not exclusive in this problem, that's a bridge that can be crossed when it's there

every point about adv has been said and enough team tours have been evaluated, don't know what else is left to say.
 
Speaking personally, I would like to keep last years format.

It's worked for many years, and I'm not really sure if changing it would improve the tournament. I am really happy with the popularity of each of the other tiers and think they are all doing great. With that said, I still would not oppose adding any of them into a 10 slot format. I am pretty happy with the status quo here but if demand for any of them is high and theres a good reason to include one or two of them I don't strictly hate it.
 
I think last year's format was really good so we should be careful expanding it, but I also think there is room for sv4 and adv lc in particular based on their communities playerbases. I've not kept track of lcuu and lc Doubles player bases but I know there are active player bases for both.

If we do expand the format, particularly with sv4, I think we as a community should try to have more players from other communities aware of it to potentially improve the quality of the player pool if they want to sign up. Last year's pool I believe could've fit sv4 fine, because I think the subs on many teams could've definitely started in other situations, but particularly with some moving to the 10th slot not everyone there is playing sv this tournament. Non sv4 expansions should be only done if we're convinced we need to expand to fit an already existing community.
 
I think the most important thing to keep in mind is transitioning to next year's LCPL, where we will definitely have 10 slots. If we add none of these, we will have 4 main gen instead of 3 next year (unless we add one of them at that point). If we add two of these, we will presumably have to choose which one stays and which one goes - do the playerbases of these tiers want that pressure?

I bias toward either maintaining 8 slots, adding SV4 + ADV, or ADV + DLC. I think that ADV and DLC add the most in terms of people who might not otherwise participate signing up in comparison to LC UU. Nothing against UU and this is not about playerbase quality, it's just that most of the UU people would just be playing SV, an oldgen or supporting if not playing UU.
 
As someone who would stand to benefit from UU being added I’m gonna say don’t add it. Don’t add DLC either. It’s not a criticism of these formats obviously, I think LC “OU” this gen sucks ass comparatively, but LCPL is supposed to be the main LC team tour event (ignoring SCL I guess) and it should simply represent LC’s core formats, let the winter tour whether it be LCWL/LCWC/LCBC consider the more fringe stuff.

I am in support of adding ADV + SV4 for a 10 slot format though. I used to be a hater but the tier is mostly established as a core LC gen at this point, and it’s not like it’s any more of a meme than DPP balance/variance wise.
 
I am in firm support of 10 slots adding ADV & DLC, as for the gen 10 removal issue I have to agree with drifting maintaining the core elements of LC is crucial, DLC & UU have plenty of places where they can shine (LPL, Derby, LCBC), and since it’s a new gen we’re gonna want to have another CG slot to account for the new gen hype.

TLDR: Add DLC and ADV into this LCPL and remove DLC for CG4 for the next gen.
 
i think the only argument against adding adv is literally just "i dont like change", next year we just remove one cg slot which is what most ppl want anyway and problem solved. i prefer uu to doubles (i just think it fits the tour more) if it comes down to that
 
In my opinion if you go 10 slots it's the best to add only one tier and not two. Next generation there will be almost guaranteed 2 added slots if we don't want to cut generations (2 current gen slots seems not the best to start a generation). During generation 10 the debate starts if there should be 4 gen X slots or 1 tier being added. Adding 2 tiers right now will create another issue next generation since you either have to cut a slot you just added or go 12 slots wich seems a bit of a big jump.

That's why I support adding 1 of the 3 tiers being added this season and go with 10 slots. It's like a final test for next season if it fails we can go 4 gen X slots. all 3 tiers show they are capable of being in a serious tournament setting shown in lcbc so it's not like we're testing a shit show of a tier the only question remains if it's viable in little cup biggest team tournament.

As someone that is involved with adv lc since the start it's obviously my bias go towards that tho it's also alongside doubles the most played tier of the 3. The UU player base overlap the most with ou and that's why it's my least favourite option from the 3. Adv lc have a unique community with recently seeing interest from adv ou players aswell i believe that's a good thing. Doubles is in the same boat with this situation. The only big difference is that doubles is super hard to manage talking from experience in lcbc its just so different from normal lc it's hard to flex into it and you're almost forced to draft 2 doubles players which no other slot have in this tournament with that in mind I think adv is the better addition.
 
I don't think we need to rush adding another gen, let's just do that next gen when we've got to expand regardless, making it less changes in format between tours. Keep this last gen 9 LCPL the same format as it has been all gen, making it a decent sendoff to how the gen has been and add gen 3 (Which I agree has gotten a fairly good playerbase and metagame now) next gen when we've got to expand to 10 slots regardless.
 
Obviously I'd love to see LCUU included, after it had a good showing in LCBC and we are working to lift it up after a period of very little activity.
As for playerbase overlap, I think it's not necessarily a bad thing, as you're not forced to draft one or two dedicated mainers but you can just draft any competent LC player and they'll learn it pretty quickly, the examples are more than enough at this point.
If there is no space for it this time, it is what it is, next year after our first full circuit run the tier will be so good you'll have no choice but to include it, we'll do our best :pip:

I just wanna say, choose depending on what you see right now, not depending on the changes that will have to be done later. Another thread will go up next year and tiers and playerbases might be in a whole different state. If a tier deserves to be included today, it should be.
 
Unrelated to the talk about the slots, but preventing both managers from self-buying altogether feels too harsh. A big appeal towards variable self buy prices is that it allows weaker managers that would otherwise be warded off by a steep 15/20k self buy cost to play for a more market appropriate price. However, considering how competitive the manager sign ups have been for the last few team tournaments, you are basically required to have a top player (or notable community figure, but this is significantly less common) which in turn prevents the less proven manager from utilizing their cheap self buy because it makes no sense to do so.

If 2 top players self buying is still a concern, you can put an additional tax on the second self buy. Personally this seemsoverkill, as 2 top players self buying will typically end up somewhere between 40-50k, which is quite a hefty price to pay up front before an auction.
 
tazz said:
I think the most important thing to keep in mind is transitioning to next year's LCPL, where we will definitely have 10 slots. If we add none of these, we will have 4 main gen instead of 3 next year (unless we add one of them at that point). If we add two of these, we will presumably have to choose which one stays and which one goes - do the playerbases of these tiers want that pressure?

I bias toward either maintaining 8 slots, adding SV4 + ADV, or ADV + DLC. I think that ADV and DLC add the most in terms of people who might not otherwise participate signing up in comparison to LC UU. Nothing against UU and this is not about playerbase quality, it's just that most of the UU people would just be playing SV, an oldgen or supporting if not playing UU.
Click to expand...

Seconding this as far as UU is concerned. It feelt like mainers in this thread agree with it so far, so it should be fine.
If I had to rank the formats I think would work best, it'd probably be:

1) 10 slots with ADV + DLC
2) 8 slots status quo
3) 10 slots including another SV slot

Reasoning would be I have found the SV pool to be very fun and competitive in LCPL last year, it's something we should be proud of. This without any major snubs as well, at least in my opinion. I cannot say the exact same about last LCBC, with four starting slots, though. The pool was by no means bad, but three starting slot remains plenty fine and a sweet spot for CG tiers. Making it four feels unnecessary and even counterproductive if we are looking at competitiveness as relevant factor in the pool(s).

ADV LC and DLC are also two healthy and vital communities nowadays. They are both played a bunch on-site already, more than some others. And they both have some very high level players among their community members, in my opinion. I don't know how many of them would be missing the tounament without this representation, but i don't think it's relevant, both tiers deserve it hence my support as first option. I'm aware of the format issue we will have in this case come Gen 10, but I think members of said communities would sooner feel happy than the pressure Tazz mentioned. It's better to be represented once than never, do we agree?

I do empathize with what Fille and Lily brought up though. As a person who manages a lot, I know when you wanna do everything to win (as it should be), it is hard and draining to do optimally. Especially when some tiers get added that at times, can feel like "a separate island" compared to the others. Hence I'd also be fine with status quo, that's my second preference. It's a plenty tested format and it has worked well for YEARS. There's just a considerable gap in my mind between how worth using I consider first two options versus third.

1 > 2 >>>> 3 if that's a more clear explanation.
 
keep 8 or add more sv
adding a tier which will be delect clearly is meaningless, it donesnt attract a lot new players after the matches
 
We can probably just vote between ADV / DLC / UU, and when gen10 lands, replace all current SV slots with gen10 slots, and add a sv slot together with the unpicked one among ADV/DLC/UU to make lcpl 12 slot in the next generation.
 
Adding slots at this moment is a mistake. The format we already have has been a success all these years and it is proven that it works, so not changing it until there is not other choice seems like the wise thing to do. When next gen comes up changing it to 10 slots and adding ADV will be for sure the move to make. However for the moment it's better to stay with 8 slots since adding more people might impact the competetive nature of the whole tour.

If 10 slots are finally decided, I would support adding ADV and another slot of SV. DLC and UU are both respectable choices but adding them just for a year or a couple of years at best seems like an inconsistent and incongruent decision (I'm assuming they would end up being removed from lcpl when next gen comes up, in favor of ADV).

To sum up: 8 slots > 10 slots (SV4 + ADV) > anything else
 
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