Lead Combinations

Status
Not open for further replies.
Overview

There are four Pokemon on a VGC team. Two of them are leads. This figure alone should demonstrate to any player just how important leads are. The leads dictate how a match will proceed to a far greater extent in VGC than they do in singles due to the percentage of the team they make up and how short the matches are. However, they serve the exact same purpose, and that is to take control of the match and set up your strategy and the rest of your team as best you can. This may mean using Kyogre to set up your Swift Swimmers or using two powerful Pokemon like Palkia and Metagross to disrupt the opponent's strategy by KO'ing their leads ASAP. The latter pair are, of course, referred to as "anti-leads" for those not familiar with the terminology.

---------------------------

Common Strategies

Fake Out - Sure, Fake Out is nice for dealing some free damage and removing Focus Sashes in singles, but in doubles it takes on a whole new purpose. That purpose is to prevent a Pokemon from executing its strategy or allowing your teammate to execute its own without interruption, or better yet, both. Here is a guide for doubles that goes in-depth on Fake Out and its various uses.

Follow Me - This is the one (nearly) surefire way to ensure your teammate can execute its desired setup move, especially if that move is Trick Room and has negative priority. Follow Me has +5 priority and causes all attacks to be directed at the user, which includes the likes of Taunt and Fake Out. There are very few Pokemon that can learn this, the most prominent three being Togekiss, Clefable, and Smeargle. Here is a guide for doubles that goes in-depth on Follow Me and its various uses.

Auto-weather - This refers to weather that is generated permanently by an ability. You already know the Pokemon that can do this -- Kyogre, Groudon, Abomasnow, and Tyranitar... and Hippowdon -- and the major strategies that accompany the different types of weather. So, what happens when two auto-weather Pokemon enter as leads? The slowest one's weather overrides the faster one's. This puts an interesting spin on things, since a sacrifice in Speed is necessary to ensure your weather will prevail. Many teams bring backup weather users to counteract opposing weather and to ensure they have their preferred type of weather in play when all is said and done.

More to come...

---------------------------

Here's an example of a popular lead combination, as well as how to format your own leads for thorough explanation:


Smeargle @ Focus Sash
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly nature (-SpAtk, +Spe)
-Follow Me
-Fake Out
-Protect
-Dark Void / Super Fang

&


Dialga @ Chesto Berry
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpAtk
IVs: 0 Spe
Quiet nature (+SpAtk, -Spe)
-Trick Room
-Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
-Earth Power / Flamethrower / Aura Sphere
-Protect / Aura Sphere

This is one common example of a pair of leads that work well together. On the first turn Smeargle can Fake Out or use Follow Me in order to shield Dialga from Taunt or a powerful attack. If it sees the opportunity it can also use Dark Void, although it must be faster than one or both opponents to do so, or have a good read on them.

Dialga, meanwhile, should be able to use Trick Room just about 100% of the time, unless Smeargle makes a mistake. After Trick Room it will be quite "fast" relative to the metagame, despite its 90 base Speed. 90 is actually the lowest base Speed for an "Uber" Pokemon. Dialga is very bulky and only has two weaknesses, so it is very hard for the opponent to dispose of, and all the while it can fire off some of the most powerful attacks in the game from 150 base SpAtk.

Super Fang is Smeargle's best method of doing damage, and it can be used in tandem with Dialga's monster SpAtk to score a quick KO on an opponent that expects TR (Smeargle outspeeds Dialga) and Fake Out/Follow Me.

---------------------------

Post lead combos that you have found effective here!! Please keep theorymon to a minimum, unless it is truly necessary (you don't have the means to test it) and very carefully thought out.
 
Quick note: Follow Me actually has a +3 priority, the same as protect/endure/detect. The only moves that have higher priority do not cause damage, though, so it doesn't matter that much.
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
Also i think you forgot hipowdon as an auto weather poke. Excellent OP btw.
 
So, can we post lead sets in here then? If that's the case...


Metagross @ Occa / Chesto Berry
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Def
IV's: 0 Spe
Adamant/Naughty
- Explosion
- Bullet Punch
- Hammer Arm / Earthquake
- Protect

&


Giratina @ Lum / Haban Berry / Griseous (it's really optional imo to have Griseous, I don't think people will use it too much anyway)
EVs: 252 Att / 4 Def / 252 Spe or 4 HP / 180 Atk / 72 SpDef / 252 Spe (It's hard to choose a good spread for this Pokemon lol)
Nature: Jolly
- Shadow Force
- Dragon Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Protect

This is a lead combination I thought of a few days ago. Due to Giratina being a quite special Dragon/Ghost Pokemon, it allows you to use the explosion tactic without sacrificing your partners turn. Plus, since Giratina is faster, it will be disappearing anyway, and probably Shadow Forcing through the opponents protect. Dragon Claw is there for safe measure, and Shadow Sneak.... well it's priority. We all love that.

The set is primarily physical in its nature due to the fact a lot of the competition is specially oriented. Metagross's third slot is really up in the air. Both Hammer Arm and Earthquake will punish opposing Dialga/Metagross or other leads with neutral or 2/4x weaknesses to those moves. Especially in the case of TR. Hammer Arm I think is preferred due to it not sacrificing power, while still delivering a ton of damage to Pokemon weak against it.

Now, the Metagross is an anti-TR lead. If you see anything such as Smeargle, you can take the chance of living a DV and Hammer Arming it or keeping the Occa Berry for any Palkia's with Fire Blast (or anything with a fire move for that matter).

Back ups are really not too complicated as far as I would imagine. Since weather plays a part, having either Groudon or Kyogre can work. I think Abomasnow might not work too well due to it allowing the opponent to easily Blizzard your team and destroy Giratina (its already gargantuan sp. def will probably take it though) with a 2/3HKO.

Any comments/suggestions on the prototype?
 
One that has been working well for me:

Fast Super Fang User + Slower than SPU Strong Hitter.

You Super Fang a pokemon and then hit it with the other one xP

It's that simple. Sure KO.

A very good example of this: Crobat + Dialga
 
Couldn't you use two 'strong hitters' to have the same effect?
Ganging up is quite risky, as if the target Protects, you've wasted a turn.
 
What about something like

Kyogre@Choice Specs
Quiet (0 Spe IV)/Drizzle
252 SpA/252 HP/4 def

-Water Spout
-Ice Beam
-Thunder
-Hydro Pump

Electivire@Life Orb/Expert Belt
Timid/Motor Drive
252 SpA/252 Spe/4 Atk

-Thunder
-Follow Me
-HP Ice
-Focus Blast

Strat: Follow me prevents Fake Out and absorbs electric attacks aimed at Kyogre while he punishes the other team with a huge boosted Water Spout. The trouble is Garchomp, who can hit both with a fast EQ and will result most likely in Electivire switching out.
 
What about something like

Kyogre@Choice Specs
Quiet (0 Spe IV)/Drizzle
252 SpA/252 HP/4 def

-Water Spout
-Ice Beam
-Thunder
-Hydro Pump

Electivire@Life Orb/Expert Belt
Timid/Motor Drive
252 SpA/252 Spe/4 Atk

-Thunder
-Follow Me
-HP Ice
-Focus Blast

Strat: Follow me prevents Fake Out and absorbs electric attacks aimed at Kyogre while he punishes the other team with a huge boosted Water Spout. The trouble is Garchomp, who can hit both with a fast EQ and will result most likely in Electivire switching out.
Does EQ hit everyone regardless of Follow Me? Forgive my lack of knowledge. I've never seen someone do that so I wouldn't know.
 

drcossack

I'm everywhere, you ain't never there
Does EQ hit everyone regardless of Follow Me? Forgive my lack of knowledge. I've never seen someone do that so I wouldn't know.
Hits everything on the field except the user, as do Surf, Lava Plume, Explosion/Selfdestruct, etc.

d2m - that strat is vulnerable to Fake Out. I would use Surf over Water Spout - even with the higher HP, if you get hit enough, Water Spout is going to be useless.
 

Team Rocket Elite

Data Integration Thought Entity
is a Top Researcher Alumnus
What about something like

Kyogre@Choice Specs
Quiet (0 Spe IV)/Drizzle
252 SpA/252 HP/4 def

-Water Spout
-Ice Beam
-Thunder
-Hydro Pump

Electivire@Life Orb/Expert Belt
Timid/Motor Drive
252 SpA/252 Spe/4 Atk

-Thunder
-Follow Me
-HP Ice
-Focus Blast

Strat: Follow me prevents Fake Out and absorbs electric attacks aimed at Kyogre while he punishes the other team with a huge boosted Water Spout. The trouble is Garchomp, who can hit both with a fast EQ and will result most likely in Electivire switching out.
Have we cracked the RNG for Pokemon XD? If we haven't, getting an Electivire like that will be nearly impossible. Getting one with good IVs is tough enough. Hidden Power makes it even worse.
 
Hits everything on the field except the user, as do Surf, Lava Plume, Explosion/Selfdestruct, etc.

d2m - that strat is vulnerable to Fake Out. I would use Surf over Water Spout - even with the higher HP, if you get hit enough, Water Spout is going to be useless.
Follow Me goes before Fake Out.
 

drcossack

I'm everywhere, you ain't never there
d2m, I'm well aware of that. Electivire still dies to the very popular Groudon's EQ though.

Surf would kill Electivire and you already have Hydro Pump if you get low on HP.
Muddy Water - same base power, only hits opponents; however, it's 85 Accuracy. Either way, I don't really like Choice Items in the VGC (Scarfing Giratina for Shadow Force spam comes to mind though.) You WILL run into Shedinja or Toxicroak - what does Ogre do to those two when he's locked into a Water attack? Nothing.
 
shedinja dies to sand and hail automatically. toxicroak gets killed by sun and cant really do much damage back to palkia, groudon, and kyogre. I would be more worried about palkia absorbing a choiced water spout that those 2 inferior pokemon
 

drcossack

I'm everywhere, you ain't never there
shedinja dies to sand and hail automatically. toxicroak gets killed by sun and cant really do much damage back to palkia, groudon, and kyogre. I would be more worried about palkia absorbing a choiced water spout that those 2 inferior pokemon
Shedinja uses Sunny Day. What Sandstorm/Hail?

btw, Shedinja doesn't HAVE to damage Kyogre/Palkia - unless either of those two have AncientPower, HP Flying, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, or Toxic, they can't do a thing to Shedinja.
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Shedinja uses Sunny Day. What Sandstorm/Hail?

btw, Shedinja doesn't HAVE to damage Kyogre/Palkia - unless either of those two have AncientPower, HP Flying, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, or Toxic, they can't do a thing to Shedinja.
What do you mean "What Sandstorm/Hail"? All the opponent has to do is switch in Abomasnow or Tyranitar and Shedinja dies at the end of that turn.

I will say that Shedinja is definitely something you should be able to play though. You'll probably see one in this environment and it'd look really foolish if it singlehandedly kills you.
 
What do you mean "What Sandstorm/Hail"? All the opponent has to do is switch in Abomasnow or Tyranitar and Shedinja dies at the end of that turn.

I will say that Shedinja is definitely something you should be able to play though. You'll probably see one in this environment and it'd look really foolish if it singlehandedly kills you.
You'd be amazed, People are aware of Shedinja, but nobody has anything to handle him. I got +6 and swept with shedinja alone, because he couldnt do ANYTHING. And this has happened in well over 10 of my test matches. Oh and did I forget to mention he was running TrickHail..
 
Shedinja is usually not a lead, and is often the 4th poke shown, so that you general can't switch due to being down to 2 pokes, it uses Sunny Day so it doesn't die to weather.

Dry Skin Toxicroak is no where near inferior in doubles, it is just about one of the main counters to Rain Teams, only Ludicolo is arguable better (Rain Dish and Swift Swim are both used in different ways)

Both Abomasnow (very common lead) and T-Tar (not so common) underspeed Kyogre to gain weather.

Neither lead carries Protect/Detect so are very venerable to Explosion/Self Destruct leads. Azelf outspeeds both, KOs Electivire and drops your Kyogre to around 10% health at most (90.3% - 106.8%), Metagross will KO both and survive a focus blast while outspeeding Kyogre to get it off.

Just as a note Toxicroak generally carries Low Kick, which does 51.2% - 60.9% (252 HP 6 Def Kyogre), 59.6% - 70.5% (6 HP Palkia), and 36.2% - 42.5% (252 HP Groudon). Also 252 HP Dialga (most common TR lead) takes 81.2% - 96.6%.
 
Lucario is also a potential Follow Me user. Inner Focus will keep them off of Fake Out plays too at any point, which is certainly a plus. I could imagine doing something like Lucario + Bronzong (Trick Room) followed up by Dialga and Giratina-O. Don't ask me for movesets or EV spreads yet, this is just some random idea I just had.
 
Lucario is also a potential Follow Me user. Inner Focus will keep them off of Fake Out plays too at any point, which is certainly a plus.
If you are going to follow me with lucario, and waste the turn not attacking - you should have steadfast instead of inner focus and get the speed boost.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top