League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??

Agammemnon

A wild Zubat appears!
is a Contributor Alumnus
Hahah I'm not sure !
Any Smogon player being diamond/challenger btw?
I'm currently only Silver I, trying to improve :(
 
Silver I is imo the worst of the divisions. People think they're so good, and that they belong in Gold, so they naturally try and assume control and tell people what to do. This ends up in 5 people "leading" their team. (By leading I mean harassing each other.) The mentality of the team is instantly lowered, people argue, stupid plays are made because of miscommunication ect. When I was in Silver I, I never won or lost a game via pushing down of the nexus. People surrendered around the 20-30 minute mark because they hated their team that much. I was silver I at the beginning of season 3 after landing at 1492 at the end of pre-season. I'm currently in a slump but I'm working back up there.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
You brought up Irelia, whose Q is a mobility option, sure. But is it so hard to realize that her passive, by reducing the duration of stuns and slows, not only helps her move around and stick on people better, but also helps her Q more because Q can't be used when stunned?
Sure, why not? My problem from the start is that you're claiming that kiting through CCing the opponent is a mobility option. In this case, Irelia is well equipped to deal with her personal movement being impaired, which would affect her mobility.

Ashe keeps getting brought up because she can kite. Well, yeah, she can, and that's a mobility option. Obv everyone knows that it alone doesn't make Ashe an amazing mobility champ, or even really an adequate one, but here's the thing; mobility is a degree. It dumbs it down to say "Here are champs with mobility, and the rest don't have it" when it's something that is routinely itemized for. You can look at Zac and say "man, that champ has a lot of CC", but that doesn't mean Sion isn't a CCer with only one CC ability. So yeah, I guess you could say it's useless to categorize it; that's not my problem. I'm not the one who has to categorize champs and abilities around here, and it's largely what I find at fault with your argument. Almost every champ has some niche, and they all have lots of little nuances with how their kits works, so once again, it's a combination of things makes her very good at being mobile. Her W, E, and R, all help out position the enemy. Her Q doesn't help, but you get the most out of its damage when you are using correct positioning. Even when her ult is down (the original question), she has options. But even if you aren't playing Ahri, or someone without blinks, dashes, speed boosts, if you aren't thinking "what are my, if limited, mobility options?", then you might find yourself dying out of position from time to time.
Ok, you're missing the point of why being able to meaningfully describe characteristics of a champion is really important, even though you pass over it in your next sentence. Every champion has a niche because every champion has a different set of tools and characteristics. Being able to effectively communicate those attributes is highly powerful. Further, being able to effectively communicate how champions are DIFFERENT is probably even more effective in describing their niche role. Saying "every champion has mobility because they can move" highly marginalizes your ability to describe the degree to which a champion is mobile relative to the rest of the game, or the degree to which they aren't.

In the case of Ahri I claim that her ability to CC and her Mobility (Through her ult) make her nigh uncatchable in certain situations. But I would not argue that her ability to CC makes her inherently more mobile. It just makes her effective at CCing and kiting. She's still getting from point A to B in the same time even if the opponents movement is impaired. Ashe is the least mobile champion in the game, despite having many CC options because the two categories are inherently different, which is why she's repeatedly brought up. Talking about mobility merely as if it's just something that you always inherently have is what dumbs it down to not being a scalar thing.

No, that's exactly what kiting is. It's being able to position yourself out of reach of the opponent.
Yes, relative to the opponent being kited, that's certainly true, but that's not because you have more mobility but rather because you're limiting theirs. Which is fundamentally significant because it is not a universal 1 v 1, and there are other people you have to reposition yourself from. Which is why we say the ones with mobility are the ones who actually effect their own mobility, which is effective against every single opponent, and more useful in repositioning far more often than kiting.

That's an invalid comparison because you aren't using the hydro pump. Whether she's using her Ult or her W, Ahri is the one using her tools to suit her needs.
Missing the point, but here let's change it to saying that you have increased Evasion because you used Mud Slap, and lowered their accuracy. The point is that saying that CCing others is a mobility option is overstating the case of what actually happens.
 
As Rumble versus Zed I would just run an hextech revolver for the spellvamp and then an armseeker guard, nullifying Zed's impact on my lane. You can both push really hard so it comes down to the jungler in my opinion.
yeah eventually the problem i had was that a well-played rumble can nullify most of your poke starting from about level 8 onward by just using his shield, and is very good at punishing you under your own turret. i'm not a great zed, though, so that's definitely a contributing factor.
 

remlabmez

@dacopboss
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
I don't see how zed beats rumble honestly. I just don't see how zed can take constant harass while rumble can shield some of it off. Rumble is a counter to melee after all. Maybe going all in at rumble at 6 can work? Not really sure. I've faced a few zed's as rumble and I never really had trouble. All of these matches were in normals so it was v possible they were learning/first time zed.

Also I take this website as a grain of salt but http://www.championselect.net/champ/Zed seems to think zed loses to rumble also.

And as for the silver 1 thing, it's hard to make a judgment because its your MMR that decides the people you face and who is on your team. your division is kind of an illusion and it's the reason people get "throttled" when I was in silver i all my opponents were gold 2-3 because my MMR was higher. The best advice is just to carry yourself out, there is no secret. I would suggest jungling for your best chance to climb up elo I guess. It worked for me
 

vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
highly marginalizes your ability to describe the degree to which a champion is mobile relative to the rest of the game, or the degree to which they aren't.
You mean like I'm doing right now? You can take Kassadin, Nidalee, Ahri, and Singed, and call them all mobile champions because they certainly do that in spades, but did you stop and think about just how vastly different they each accomplish this? Kassadin is really best at fleeing over walls, while Nidalee is the best escaper in the game. Singed relies on juking, and Ahri is untouchable. These are all better descriptors than categorizing them as mobile champs, so I don't think I'm marginalizing my ability to describe kits here.

She's still getting from point A to B in the same time even if the opponents movement is impaired.
This is the part that's just factually inaccurate to the point where I can't believe you've played Ahri. To compare her to Ashe, if both have the same move speed and both have to cast W, then no, they won't get from A to B at the same time because Ashe has a casting time and Ahri doesn't. Ashe's W can be a trade-off against a large group; that split second can be the difference between Irelia getting within Q distance or not, and it doesn't really reliably slow multiple clumped up opponents.

Which is fundamentally significant because it is not a universal 1 v 1, and there are other people you have to reposition yourself from.
Against a group of opponents, the slight delay between fox-fires is usually enough time to hit 2-3 clumped up opponents. It's another unique nuance to an ability which most people probably won't give a second thought to. When it does provide some slack, Charm is the perfect CC for picking that up. And all of this can be done either ult down, or even when the ult is being used to spread its duration over a whole team fight.

The point is that saying that CCing others is a mobility option is overstating the case of what actually happens.
No, you keep insisting that I'm saying that CC is mobility. I'm saying it's situational. I'm saying it's more complex than "is this CC or mobility". I'm saying it's more complex than "let's single out and label abilities, limiting the way they can be used". I said that Udyr's stun in and off itself doesn't offer him any added mobility (though it's still an ability that could be used for both), I would say that most CC in and of itself doesn't give added mobility without a tradeoff, but Ahri is an exception because of the unique interactions of her W, the lack of casting time and the full proc on a multi-target spell. It is a one of a kind ability.
 
I don't see how zed beats rumble honestly. I just don't see how zed can take constant harass while rumble can shield some of it off. Rumble is a counter to melee after all. Maybe going all in at rumble at 6 can work? Not really sure. I've faced a few zed's as rumble and I never really had trouble. All of these matches were in normals so it was v possible they were learning/first time zed.
the only thing I can think of is if you outplay him early and get a big enough lead that you can actually push HIM to tower and bully him there with W-E harass. this is extremely difficult if he starts cloth 5 or 9 pot 2 ward, though. in my match, after he got armguard, he shrugged off all of my harass by just shielding, then chunked me for a third of my health with Q.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
You mean like I'm doing right now? You can take Kassadin, Nidalee, Ahri, and Singed, and call them all mobile champions because they certainly do that in spades, but did you stop and think about just how vastly different they each accomplish this? Kassadin is really best at fleeing over walls, while Nidalee is the best escaper in the game. Singed relies on juking, and Ahri is untouchable. These are all better descriptors than categorizing them as mobile champs, so I don't think I'm marginalizing my ability to describe kits here.
And that's perfectly fine if the only thing that mattered when talking about this game was champions on an individual level. However sometimes we have to analyze the game on a more general level, such as when we talk about trends in the metagame. That's where terms like "mobile" "disruptive" are important, and where champions can be heuristically categorized as examples for these terms.

And to emphasize the importance of this pedantic argument, if you're not on the same level of intellectual construct as everyone else, and how we use terms, then you will fundamentally not be able to effectively communicate your opinions on the state of the game.

This is the part that's just factually inaccurate to the point where I can't believe you've played Ahri. To compare her to Ashe, if both have the same move speed and both have to cast W, then no, they won't get from A to B at the same time because Ashe has a casting time and Ahri doesn't. Ashe's W can be a trade-off against a large group; that split second can be the difference between Irelia getting within Q distance or not, and it doesn't really reliably slow multiple clumped up opponents.
Good thing the comment you quoted was me referring to Ahri, who as you've pointed out does not stop moving to cast her W, so she actually does get to point A to point B in the same time. If we're talking about Ashe, I completely agree she does have to stop moving in order to kite.

But this isn't relevant to the point that CC is not mobility by proxy.



Against a group of opponents, the slight delay between fox-fires is usually enough time to hit 2-3 clumped up opponents. It's another unique nuance to an ability which most people probably won't give a second thought to. When it does provide some slack, Charm is the perfect CC for picking that up. And all of this can be done either ult down, or even when the ult is being used to spread its duration over a whole team fight.
Then, you should say she's rather good at kiting multiple targets, and not say she's mobile because they are less mobile than her.

Like I cannot stress enough how defining Ahri's mobility as a function of her opponents mobility is inherently confusing.

No, you keep insisting that I'm saying that CC is mobility.
Except that's precisely how you presented your argument. You started with the idea that Ahri is mobile because she is capable of kiting multiple targets well. And I'm saying that argument is logically flawed because CC does not imply mobility.



@Jebus: I feel like Zed v Rumble is a skill matchup... maybe Rumble has a bit of the edge here? I mean Rumble as a general rule smashes melee champs unless those melees can out trade through the flamespitter and shield, but I feel like Zed can effectively poke even despite Rumble's shield.
 

Ampharos

tag walls, punch fascists
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I like this "arguments go in hide tags" idea. I like it a lot.

$10 says riot reveals Zac to be Urf tomorrow
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
I like this "arguments go in hide tags" idea. I like it a lot.

$10 says riot reveals Zac to be Urf tomorrow
It is one of my better ideas.

Also no, Riot's april fool's is something called CHEW. They've been hinting at it for a while iirc.
 

vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Good thing the comment you quoted was me referring to Ahri, who as you've pointed out does not stop moving to cast her W, so she actually does get to point A to point B in the same time. If we're talking about Ashe, I completely agree she does have to stop moving in order to kite.
Do you know how many abilities in this game work without a cast time? This isn't compared to Ashe, this is compared to almost anyone who wants to escape, chase, or kite, while outputting damage. The fact of the matter is, most champs will spend a decent portion of any team fight standing still. Compare this to Singed, who is always in motion not because of his movement speed boosting ult, but because of the way his source of damage works.

But hey, it doesn't matter because I clearly can't communicate when talking about LoL right (granted, if you mean to say blinks or dashes I don't see why you couldn't just say that)? I guess I should start taking notes; how about veteran caster and Riot employee Phreak? Let's see what he says about Viktor's E that has no casting time. "As death ray doesn't interrupt your movement... this allows you freedom to chase down opponents" Freedom to chase. Now you could use it in the same way when escaping, or when repositioning yourself in a team fight. So you have freedom to do all the things that are covered when we think of good mobility champs. Freedom to move.

Then, you should say she's rather good at kiting multiple targets, and not say she's mobile because they are less mobile than her.
See arguments don't work when you can only seem to remember the current block of text you are looking at. You can scroll up and reread your opponent's previous points, I know I do.

So as I already said, she is good at mobility because she isn't being CC'd (which is to kill mobility), which is because she is good at kiting. I realize that's a series of conclusions, and I left out the middle point at first because I had hoped it could have been inferred, but by the time you came into this argument I had more than fully explained my reasoning. Do I need a flowchart to show all the ways in which a single ability can affect the flow of a fight?

You are saying that in theory Irelia's Passive and Ahri's W are totally different, but in practice they rarely are, except that Irelia is still gonna be CC'd a little bit. Only a handful of hard counters can affect Ahri's mobility, like Ryze.

Except that's precisely how you presented your argument. You started with the idea that Ahri is mobile because she is capable of kiting multiple targets well. And I'm saying that argument is logically flawed because CC does not imply mobility.
You continually take me out of context. I responded to the idea that Ahri has no mobility options when her Ult is on CD, I pointed out an option. I did not give reasoning, I did not say CC equals mobility, you are free to check all these things. I have since thoroughly explained myself, I have pointed out how CC and mobility are not mutually exclusive and not always linked either.
 

xenu

Banned deucer.
vonfielder stop being thickheaded everyone knows cc equals mobility because you take away everyone else's mobility l2p scrub
 

internet

no longer getting paid to moderate
is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I am silver V at EUW, as dolfijntje.

It's my main account, but I don't really play a lot of ranked
 

RODAN

Banned deucer.
RODAN ELO: where you can play support shaco and support an all aspd kog maw and also a smiteless xin jungle who dies to wolves and still win

 
About gosh darn time!!

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2013/04/41-pbe-update.html#more

This method seems so smooth to. Nice job Riot.

Also, what the fuck are they doing to Udyr?

Udyr
Tiger Stance's ( Q ) Passive effect now grants bonus damage ( ~.1 AD ) on auto attacks instead of attack speed.
Tiger Stance's ( Q ) activated attack speed bonus increased to 30/40/50/60/70% for 5 seconds from 15/20/25/30/35%.
Tiger Stance's (Q ) bonus damage strike now deals 80/140/200/260/320 ( +2.5 bonus AD ) physical damage instead of 30/80/130/180/230 ( +1.5 AD ) magic damage.
 

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