Implemented Let lower tiers leave Alpha a bit sooner

Status
Not open for further replies.

Eve

taking a break
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Community Leader
Hi! Alpha stages for lower tiers last too long. Solution? Make them last less long. Why? A few reasons. Don't worry, I'm not suggesting anything drastic- you can find my exact proposal at the bottom of this post.

It just doesn't take a month to determine what is clearly broken. When a new tier is dropped, a lot of games are played very quickly, including by many very skilled players. In almost every case, the most obscene Pokemon that get banned at the start of Beta phase are ones that were identified day one of Alpha, let alone week one. Counterplay to these threats is typically established within the first few days, and it becomes apparent fairly quickly (within, say, a week or two) whether the counterplay is sufficient to make a given threat balanced. A month is blatantly overkill and I can't think of any examples where a council changed their mind on a major threat towards the end of the Alpha phase. Having led several tiers through Alpha stages myself with BDSP, I couldn't find any positives with the phase taking so long. If you're thinking "but what if the drops change things?", refer to the next section.

OU doesn't have to deal with Alpha stages. It's fair game for the OU council to ban anything instantly if it's clearly far too powerful, as demonstrated in full force at the start of this generation. For what reason is this option not afforded to the lower tier councils? Sure, an answer to a threat could drop, but how often has a single new answer actually changed whether something is so clearly and exceptionally broken? I'm reminded of early SS UU Mamoswine, who was being suspect tested when the "perfect answer", the very viable Rotom-Wash, fell into the tier- it changed nothing except warping the tier even more to focus on this one mon who didn't really solve the problem anyway. The rare case where something unexpectedly drops and makes a banworthy threat healthy and balanced on the first possible month seems like it would be unlikely enough to not cause problems, and it could easily be resolved by a retest in the near future regardless.

Shorter Alpha stages would (probably) result in subsequent lower tiers being more immediately stable. With the current system, the first month of usage stats is totally warped by clearly unhealthy presences that will be ejected immediately afterwards. This often results in lower tiers having noticeably different usage between their first and second months, resulting in subsequent lower tiers taking longer to stabilize as their legal pool of Pokemon can suffer unusually substantial changes. If the Alpha period were, say, two weeks long, the tier could recover from the effects of centralization to provide more accurate preliminary usage stats and improve the stability of subsequent tiers.

Most people who actually play the tiers don't seem to like it lasting this long. When leading BDSP lower tiers, I only heard negative opinions on the length of Alpha stages when talking with the most prominent community members, mainly in the form of "I can't wait for [X Tier] to leave Alpha so we can play a healthy meta". This included council members on, if I'm not mistaken, every single occasion. Our UU playerbase had to wait for Mence to leave, our RU playerbase Kingdra and Venomoth and Drought, our NU playerbase Linoone and Zangoose... and now, SV UU and RU had to wait for their own very obviously obscene threats to leave before the tiers became competitive, leading to a lot of frustration and waiting rather than useful metagame development. This really just leaves me wondering- who are we doing this for?



In summary, my proposal is the following: we should reduce the duration of Alpha stages. As opposed to Alpha ending with the next tier shift as it currently does, My proposal would be a two week duration, followed by a Beta period in which a very strong consensus (80% supermajority?) is required for quickbans. This Beta period should last at least until the next tier shift, if not longer, until the council deems the metagame stable enough to not require quickbans. This proposal aims to address the concerns and frustrations of a large portion of the lower tier playerbase, improve the stability of the lower tiers, and accelerate their development.

I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this idea or any points I have raised, especially from those who are/have been involved in the development of lower tiers.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Speaking individually, I support this concept.

While time reduction and quickban threshold specifics are always going to be arbitrary, I think it will be fine so long as we take a firm stance and use it as precedent moving forward rather than continuing to give in in either direction over time.

Obviously more opinions are welcome on the specific timeline and if people like this concept. For me, I just see this as a more convenient and desires mechanism for our tiers in their infancy than what we have now. I support the two week option listed in the OP and I know the specifics of the supermajority needed are being discussed internally as an option as well.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader
I believe we should be adopting the practice used during the DLC2 rollout so it only takes two weeks for a lower tier to get out of Alpha. As Eve states, we're much more likely to get tier stability the sooner councils can take action on the broken Pokemon, and while the chaos is definitely fun as fuck to play through, a lot of people just want to start actually solving the tiers they play. It's very hard to do that during the early, turbulent phases.
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Heavily in favor of this under the condition that any "Alpha" bans are explicitly reexamined once the second tier shift drops. This way we get a more playable meta 2 weeks earlier, and by explicitly reexamining these bans after the tier is in a more final state we reduce a lot of the risk from early tiering action.
 
I'm curious to see why this hasn't already been implemented. It's obvious that a tier's council can determine something is too overbearing in the tier within the first week or two, as seen from OU banning Flutter Mane and Houndstone on, what, day 4? I see no reason to let a terrible metagame fester and stagnate for an entire month when after even just 2 weeks, a lower tier could immediately stabilize.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
In summary, my proposal is the following: we should reduce the duration of Alpha stages. As opposed to Alpha ending with the next tier shift as it currently does, My proposal would be a two week duration, followed by a Beta period in which a very strong consensus (80% supermajority?) is required for quickbans. This Beta period should last at least until the next tier shift, if not longer, until the council deems the metagame stable enough to not require quickbans. This proposal aims to address the concerns and frustrations of a large portion of the lower tier playerbase, improve the stability of the lower tiers, and accelerate their development.

I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this idea or any points I have raised, especially from those who are/have been involved in the development of lower tiers.
(red italicized part added)

A couple random not necessarily related thoughts:

1) Has Eve's proposal been approved?

2) I feel like this OP had two distinct proposals but only garnered replies to the initial part (making alpha two weeks long) - the second part is making beta period have 80% votes for quick bans. Does anyone have thoughts on that?

3) I think 80% would mean different things for different sized councils, if there's a council with 10 people (I have no idea if there is) then that means you can lose 2 at most (for 8/10 = 80%) but if there's anywhere up to 14 members that means you still can lose up to 2 at most (11/14 < 80%). That might not be particularly proper and could incentivize tier leaders to make 10 or 15 person councils (not saying they WOULD do this, but I am just pointing out an issue with making these blanket rules when everything else (e.g., size of council) is not uniform between the formats

4) I'm not opposed to 80% at all (I have no preference on this) but I do think 80% is clearly more than what's been done before, normally it's 50% + 1 vote or 60% for old gen things, what's the logic behind making it 80% now?

5) I'm not sure if there's a reason we need the length of alpha to be uniform - we can perhaps let every tier leader choose between 2 weeks and 1 month, depending on how they feel? What's the reason we need this to be uniform again? The reason being flexible could help is because some leaders are more active than others and some might need more time to figure out how to exit Alpha.

Anyways, just some random thoughts.
 

Eve

taking a break
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Community Leader
(red italicized part added)

A couple random not necessarily related thoughts:

1) Has Eve's proposal been approved?

2) I feel like this OP had two distinct proposals but only garnered replies to the initial part (making alpha two weeks long) - the second part is making beta period have 80% votes for quick bans. Does anyone have thoughts on that?

3) I think 80% would mean different things for different sized councils, if there's a council with 10 people (I have no idea if there is) then that means you can lose 2 at most (for 8/10 = 80%) but if there's anywhere up to 14 members that means you still can lose up to 2 at most (11/14 < 80%). That might not be particularly proper and could incentivize tier leaders to make 10 or 15 person councils (not saying they WOULD do this, but I am just pointing out an issue with making these blanket rules when everything else (e.g., size of council) is not uniform between the formats

4) I'm not opposed to 80% at all (I have no preference on this) but I do think 80% is clearly more than what's been done before, normally it's 50% + 1 vote or 60% for old gen things, what's the logic behind making it 80% now?

5) I'm not sure if there's a reason we need the length of alpha to be uniform - we can perhaps let every tier leader choose between 2 weeks and 1 month, depending on how they feel? What's the reason we need this to be uniform again? The reason being flexible could help is because some leaders are more active than others and some might need more time to figure out how to exit Alpha.

Anyways, just some random thoughts.
Obviously just my own thoughts on most of these.

1) From what I've heard, a formal response post is in the works.

2) See answers to 3 and 4.

3) This will happen with any percent threshold, 80% is just a clean way to demonstrate a strong consensus in smaller, average sized councils. To be completely honest, it wasn't myself that came up with the specific threshold- Lily suggested it to me during discussions prior to this post. I think it makes sense though as councils usually tend to have 5 members or more, so only having one dissenter from such a council would be a very strong majority and prove the ban is seen as necessary.

4) This is only for the alpha phase. The idea is that any quickbans conducted this early should be seen as a vast majority consensus.

5) Alpha ending doesn't actually make any difference beyond giving leaders the option to perform quickbans, meaning ending it later is effectively the same as just not acting until a while after it ends. Councils can choose to act, or not act, at their own discretion.
 
Last edited:

shiloh

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Tiering Lead
hi yes, a decision has been made for a little bit, just wanted to iron out the final few things before making the post. but should be all set now.

I'll start with the changes that will be happening, and then go over each one below that:

1. Alpha Periods are being removed entirely, and tiers will start in a "Beta" phase where tiering can begin at any point during the phase. This will still last 1 month.
2. All Council Voting, including during beta periods, will now need a minimum of 66% of the council to support action being taken, in order for a ban (or unban) to happen.

on alpha periods
Regarding point one. I read the arguments in this thread regarding the shortening of the alpha period, and while they are solid, I personally disagree with them. I do not believe that tiers need to be able to tier early in order to remove broken elements during an alpha phase. The reasons behind the creation of the alpha phase were to just have a tier playable earlier for lower tier playerbases, as due to the high amount of flux at the start of a generation, tiers usually wouldnt settle for a couple of months. This would result in massive shifts making the beta/official tiers completely different from their alpha counterparts. Because of this, it made no sense to tier the alpha phases, as likely broken elements would be moved up, or checks to them would drop down, or they would just because ineffective once the change from alpha to beta happens.

However, with the introduction of dexit and the lowering of the power creep at the start of generations, there is relatively little flux between tiers even at the start of generations now, with this being seen with uu / ru alphas / betas seeing relatively little change between the months. Due to this, I believe that there is little reason to even have an alpha tier, as we are seeing tier stability much earlier than earlier generations, which is why from this point on there just will be no reason to have them.

With this though, this is not free reign for tier leaders and councils to just start banning and having slates from day 1 of a beta period. While I do not need it needs to be an "official" period where there should not be any tiering, as tier leaders and councils are smart enough to make judgments on when tiering is needed / when a metagame has settled enough for a slate to be fair. However, if this is something that is constantly an issue, it can be revisited, and an official "1-2 week" moratorium on votes can be implemented officially.

on council voting
Council voting has always been a bit of a weird case when it comes to tiering. used much more by lower tiers after big shifts, or just early in a generation, there has not been a real uniform policy for how they are handled, and thresholds used for voting. Most tiers ended up using 50%, which is fine when it's a public test, but 50% is quite a low base when it comes to a council, which usually only has 10 or fewer members. After discussion with tier leaders, we all agreed that an increase in the voting percentage was necessary, and the number that was decided on was 2/3s of a council or at least 66%. This number at least makes it so there has to be over a majority of council support in order to ban a mon or element from a tier without public input, and hopefully makes it so more tiering actions can be done with public testing, especially those that now fall between the 50->66% range, which prior would have been a ban. I willinclude how this would look for different council sizes:
1677035991675.png

while this is not the most dramatic increase, as council numbers are small, it should hopefully result in more community driven tiering, as well as more united council when it comes to support for action.

This will only apply to official tiers of course, and it is up to the discretion of Tier Leaders if they want to use a higher threshold (OU chooses not to include 66% as a ban, requiring higher than 66%), but this is now the minimum for any council voting.

---

These changes are going to take place immediately, meaning that NU is exiting its Alpha stage as of this post, and PU will be skipping Alpha entirely, and beginning with a Beta in just about a week.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top