Serious LGBTQ+

brightobject

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question: do u guys think the term "heteroflexibility" has value? OR is it really just a smokescreen for repressed bisexuals etc etc
 
question: do u guys think the term "heteroflexibility" has value? OR is it really just a smokescreen for repressed bisexuals etc etc
It's definitely a term I take umbrage with. I honestly do think some people use it to assure themselves that they aren't REALLY bi. And one hand, I can kinda understand that. It can be hard to accept that you may not be what you initially thought you were, especially if you've been identifying as it for a long time. Also, internalized homo/biphobia is a thing. But I also think part of the reason the term seems appealing is because a lot people just don't really understand bisexuality. I don't identify as bi anymore, but I did for a long time, so I'll speak from my experiences here. There are a lot of people, including bi people, who define bisexuality as basically "half straight, half gay," or 50/50 or whatever. And I always felt that this view of bisexuality has ultimately hurt the community in the long run more than help it. It makes questioning bisexual people think that they can't truly be bi if their attraction to other genders isn't all equal (not to mention that defining bisexuality as strictly being attracted to men and women has given people the impression that if someone feels attraction to more than two genders, they can't be bi, which is false and historically inaccurate, but that's not the point here). The truth is, your attraction for different genders doesn't have to all be equal in order to be a valid bi person. There are bi people with preferences. There are even bi people who may strictly date one gender, even though they feel attraction to others. It doesn't matter. They're still bi. And many bi people don't necessarily always feel the same level of attraction for other genders consistently. What I mean by this is, it's perfectly normal for a bi person to prefer one gender some days and another on other days. And once again, I get how that can be confusing. I've been identifying as a lesbian lately but I still question sometimes if I'm just bi with a strong preference for women. So once again, I can see why some people, rather than actually trying to explore their identity, may just say they're "hetero/homoflexible" and call it a day. But meh, I don't really think it's a thing. I think if the potential for attraction to other genders is there, even if seems small, one should allow themself to explore it and decide how they feel.
 
I guess I come out here. I knew I had an attraction for girls in middle school which was 7-8 years ago?, as I was in love with my female best friend at the time, but denied these feelings because of my parents strong spiritual beliefs. It wasn't till 12th grade, which was 3 years ago I started telling my close friends that I am Bisexual, and at the end of the year that I was also Genderfluid. My friends supported me which made me so happy as my parents will not accept this becuase of what the bible says even tho they do know I am Bisexual since I came home with my ex gfs alot, but I never told them about the second part.

I haven't really told my ps! friends that I prefer they/he because at the time I wasn't comfortable with telling everyone that I was Genderfluid and just went with my gender I was born with, which was female when I entered smogon, and my ps! Friends call me she still to this day, and it sorta bothers me when I am having a he day(been trying to work on correcting people lol).

Unlike 7-8 years ago, I am very open about my sexuality, and dunno why I was so scared to do it on Smogon/PS! guess I got afraid of bullying or something. This just part of who I am, and I am proud of it.
 

sandshrewz

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question: do u guys think the term "heteroflexibility" has value? OR is it really just a smokescreen for repressed bisexuals etc etc
Had to look up what it meant but yeaaa I don't like this term either, same sentiments with Oddish. Let me just run through the definition of bisexuality from what I know and in case I'm wrong someone can correct me. I'm gonna combine both romantic and sexual/physical attraction just as "any kind of attraction". So basically bisexuals can be attracted to >1 gender/sex (not sure which one to use here, cos tbh I'm not sure if it's all based on gender or born sex but w/e), and it does not have to be in equal amount. And if I read it right, the preference/attraction may shift over time too. Also, >1 is pretty important because it can include other gender identities. I think of bisexual as a subset of pansexual, where the latter is the universal/all set. IMO if a person is able to willingly involve themselves in a relationship (sexual/romantic/etc) with >1 gender, they are bi, if not pan.

It doesn't feel like "heteroflexibility" defines anything different from bisexual. Feels more like a damaging term contributing to bi-erasure and further confusion. All it does is just state their current preference. So yea, not really a fan of the term, and I probably repeated most of what Oddish. already said.

Also want to bring up since Oddish. mentioned about previously identifying as bi. All these terms are just labels in the end, for simplification to let's say communicate with people about your preferences. I don't see anything wrong with a huge inclination to the same gender identifying as homosexual instead of bisexual even if bisexual could fit them, especially if they don't foresee themselves in a hetero relationship. I guess it's only confusing if they later on be in a hetero relationship but as long as both parties are honest and cool with each other, who cares who identifies as what. So yea, labels are to me just for convenience and to help people understand and people can identify as whichever they want. Bi-erasure and what not is always going to be a thing until people in general are more accepting and aware of the different identities.
 
The term "Heteroflexible" is generally taken to mean people who are exclusively attracted to the "opposite" sex, but will have sex with people of other sexes purely for fun or other reasons. An astonishing number of people don't seem to understand the simple concept that you don't necessarily need to be physically attracted to someone in order to have or enjoy sex with them. A persons sexual orientation and sexual behaviour can be wildly different.

It never ceases to amaze me just how ignorant, dismissive and toxic members of the so-called TBGL+ community are towards those who don't fit neatly into their precious little pre-defined boxes. You'd think that after all they've experienced, they would be empathetic and supportive of alternative identities, but nope, here they are (such as the above posts from Oddish and Sandshrewz) trying to pick apart people who identify as a group that they simply don't understand. "You're not actually what you think you are, I'd know, cuz I'm Bi, and Bi is realz". Of course, they then procede to paint themselves as victims of "bi-erasure" (because as we all know, daring to identify as an even more invisible group is an assault on their own identity and position in the pecking order) completely oblivious to the fact that in reality, they are the ones who are bullying and seeking to assimilate the identities of others.
 
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sandshrewz

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I hate talking about definitions because different words mean different things to different people and with different sources.

For the record, the definition I looked up to did NOT imply that heteroflexibility mean that you can hook up for fun. It was more for a strong preference thing, but still capable of being in some form of relationship with >1 genders. Also I explicitly stated that for my consideration of orientation, it refers specifically to a relationship, and I would not classify a fling under a relationship. A fling is just a fling. Straight people can have a rare fling with people of the same gender and that does not make them any less straight if they're just.

At this point I'm not even sure if you bothered reading our posts properly before slinging accusations around.

It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant, dismissive and toxic anyone on the internet can be. And just to enlighten, Oddish clearly states she currently does not identify as a bi, and I've never ever stated my orientation itt. Don't jump to your own conclusions thank you.

Please realise your post is horribly nonconstructive and at worse, offensive.

For the nth time that I've mentioned, labels are just labels and people are free to identify as whichever they want. Heck, a lot of time they get misunderstood or misused but who cares as long as they're comfortable. We're merely discussing a label brought up, and we don't think it's an orientation based label, but a preferential based one. To that end, heck it would make sense if apps put such a label up since it's their job to match people based on their preferences and not only orientation, though it might be confusing.

If you want to talk about how people are so cooped up on definitions, there are a boatloads to talk about like how do we properly define the term "sexuality" be it hetero or homo etc? Can someone who is homoromantic heterosexual identify as a straight or no? Don't convulse definitions and wrap them into whatever because most of the time they are confusing as heck and can multiple meanings.

I dislike labels but they're there for convenience etc and many other reasons I've already stated. It's like how races are labelled and can go incredibly detailed especially when it comes to mixed heritage etc but it gives a quick understanding of where they or their ancestors hail from etc.

No one is trying to assimilate whatever identities and what not; don't be overly sensitive. Heck if anyone were, might as well classify pansexual under bisexual since by definition all pansexuals are also bisexuals right ?? So yea no.

All I can say is sorry I didn't put up which reference I was using after saying that "I had to look up what it meant".

addendum: Oh yea I don't think I ever properly answered brightobject's answer of whether or not the term has value etc. Well yea I don't think it's an orientation term but it helps if people want to specify their preferences etc more specifically. But if people want to use it as an orientation term for themselves then so be it too if it helps them. To me the value of terms will always be convenience. It helps both the people who identify as such as well as those who don't. If you count the way I classify different labels as different value then yea I guess I put "heteroflexibility" on a different value than say "heterosexual", and also different from say "homoromantic homosexual" / more specific terms. So it'd be somewhere in between in terms of explicitness?

Edit 2: also my post is very bad too sorry. But I'll let it sit z_z
 
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Labels really do not matter much. You can identify however you want, though I think some labels (especially ones from the mogai crowd) are unnecessarily specific and not really LGBT. For example I saw one that was basically "only feels attraction to fictional characters... Yeah sorry being in love with your 2d waifu doesn't make you ell gee bee tea queue. There's no point looking for the most specific labels possible if no one understands wtf they mean.
 
I guess I should clarify my thought in saying that the reason I feel like my gender expression doesn't entitle me to such a claim is because the nature of it's expression and of my path to discovering it has not resulted in any kind of hardship or discrimination on me nor has it materially impacted my relationships sexual or platonic in a way consistent with the experiences of the vast majority of the lgbt+ community
 
Perhaps the best way to put it is I feel like I'm "fringe lbgt+" with the aforementioned nuance of how I define who I am

Edit:
I think part of my concern with associating with the label is that I can imagine realistic possibilities where members of the community feel like they're being infringed upon based on the previous things said
 

sandshrewz

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I guess I should clarify my thought in saying that the reason I feel like my gender expression doesn't entitle me to such a claim is because the nature of it's expression and of my path to discovering it has not resulted in any kind of hardship or discrimination on me nor has it materially impacted my relationships sexual or platonic in a way consistent with the experiences of the vast majority of the lgbt+ community
I think LGBT+ encompasses both sexual and gender orientation. It's not about impact or what not. Your concerns are valid in that you might not feel a right to claim, but ultimately, LGBT+ itself is also a label, with the + being an inclusive approach. Some may also define straight allies under + too (but that may be contentious to some people). And Labels have limits. IMO whether you choose to identify under LGBT+ is up to you, but as with any community/subset/label, they are bound to be people who may comment that so and so is not LGBT enough etc. I personally just find the label for LGBT+ just as a by norm thing so that it's writeable ?

On a side note I don't think there's anyway to properly label LGBT+. One way or another it's going to miss out somewhere but LGBT+ sorta conveys what it entails. But /shrug in general just identify with whichever you feel comfortable has been basically repeated around the thread.

So yea LGBT+ refers to a community and whether you feel like you belong to the community is up to you I guess? How you perceive it yourself as well as how it's perceived by others may affect. But at the same time, LGBT+ can be used to refer to as an identity and imo that's just a personal thing.

I can't say I'd describe LGBT+ as everyone who isn't cis and straight. As for infringement, it's all about the people you talk to and perception.

e: also yea I saw the newer posts + edit but I didn't requote the post.
 
I see the LGBT+ and Queer communities as more of a collection of smaller distinct communities that show solidarity with each other. The experiences of one group won't be the same as the experiences as another, but in the end they all are negatively impacted by heteronormativity or cisnormativity in some way. As such things get very messy when trying to decide who's included or not, for example the definition of being Straight can vary (personally I define it as being both Heterosexual and Heteromantic), though I always lean on the side of allowing more people to be a part of these communities.

As for discussion on labels, Language is a tool to help us understand and share our experiences and different people have different needs. Sometimes what they need is a term to get a foot in the door to help them start exploring or accepting aspects of themselves. Often things like using the Split Attraction model don't stick long term, but they can still be an important step along the way of learning more about yourself. I used to describe myself as a demiboy before I became more comfortable with being Agender.

Another aspect of labels is knowing you're not alone and having a word to describe your experiences. All throughout highschool (but especially after moving to a new state) I struggled to relate to my peers because it seemed like all they wanted to talk about was finding potential sexual partners, I was aware of asexuality but from what little I had read at the time I had only really been exposed to the idea of sex repulsed asexuals. There was a time when I'd describe myself as "borderline-asexual and homoromantic", up until I discovered the term Demisexual. I read the definition just went "that's me" and was so glad to have found a word that suited me, it was something comforting in a time where I felt very alone.

The significance of labels varies from person to person, for some they are extremely important while others comfortably reject them or just stick with an umbrella term.
 
Perhaps the best way to put it is I feel like I'm "fringe lbgt+" with the aforementioned nuance of how I define who I am

Edit:
I think part of my concern with associating with the label is that I can imagine realistic possibilities where members of the community feel like they're being infringed upon based on the previous things said
I've heard of the same exact concerns you've mentioned from several Asexuals. Labels have their uses - good and bad. LGBT+ isn't a label only belonging to the "suffering" individuals of sexual and gender non-heteroconformity; even within the LGBT+ community, there are the class, race, family and geographical differences that all inform the positive and negative experiences of our exploration through identity and love.

I don't think the LGBT+ kids who've lived life without a care on Beverly Hills are any less or more deserving of the LGBT+ label and community than LGBT kids who've been kicked out or bullied.


Now as to this idea and concept you're getting at of "infringement" -- aka more-or-less: If I come out and explain my so-called fringe association as a member of the LGBT+ community, it only distracts the important conversation and attention away from the worthy individuals and concrete LGBT categories that are actually suffering and in need of understanding & public advocacy, unlike myself.


Now that kind of thinking is just silly; for a long time, Transgender wasn't even on the map or greater social conscience at all. The LGBT label was really just 'LG'. The people who share their story and experience to help expand others' understanding and compassion are only a benefit to us all. There used to be a time where Black Women in the states felt unallowed to share their own struggle and fight, in fear of infringing on the white woman's fight for "women's" suffrage.

That kind of experience and loneliness should never be translated and felt within the LGBT+ sphere. Everyone has a right to share their story. Everyone has a right to be understood.
 
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eht

UU Tier Mom
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I came out as a trans woman in this thread going on 2 years ago. The year and a half following that has been a nonstop marathon of working on my mental health. To quote myself from this time last year:

I'm 6 months in [on HRT], and so far I've kinda seen my transition like going into a cocoon. One day I'll be ready to wriggle out into the open, and it'll be fucking awesome. But for now it's dark, lonely, and claustrophobic. I've justified this to myself by saying this is the trial I'll have to go through to be the person I want to be, that once I run the whole way through this largely self-imposed gauntlet and finally give myself a chance to stop and look up, I can finally have the catharsis of looking back at where I started, relishing in how far I've come, and marching triumphantly onward as the woman I was meant to be. But the truth is, I don't know that. I don't know how long I'll be charging forward, or when I'll finally allow myself to stop and look up. Even though I drew a "finish line" for myself when I started transitioning, there's no telling when or even if I'll cross it, or if I'll want to cross it at all by the time I get there. That's the thing about carving your own path: you only reach the end when you say you do.
I felt like I had to keep running because I wanted to get far the fuck away from my old life, if you could call it a life, as quickly as I possibly could. I had felt so powerless for so long to change my life that when it hit me that I was trans, and that door finally opened when all others were closed, I ran for my fucking life. The trauma of those 20 years was so raw and unprocessed that I was terrified of ever slowing down. I thought I wasn't able to enjoy life until I had fully transitioned, and when I was first starting out, I wasn't.

But I'm in different place now. Since writing the above rant, I've moved house, gotten a new job, and achieved better control of my mental health than I've ever had before. When I first came out, I clung for dear life to the binary label of woman in part because I found it profoundly life-affirming to reject masculinity so thoroughly and completely. It was so exhilarating to me because, not only did woman as a label in large part represent who I truly am, it also represented liberation from 20 years of living a lie. But that meant on the flip-side, I felt that to identify as anything else meant I'd be going back to a place that I'd rather die than go back to. Those memories of chest hair and cargo shorts hung so menacingly over me that I didn't know how else to make peace with them than to go as far to the opposite extreme as I possibly could. But now my old life is far enough behind me that I can think about my identity with more nuance than "Not A Man" because I no longer feel like everything I've done to fix myself will fall apart if I do. My sense of identity no longer feels like this slapdash thing held together with duct tape and chewed gum. Trans is what I am now and I take that for granted. I think that means I'm finally learning to slow down. I think I'm learning that, despite still not being where I want to be, I can and should still think about where I am now. That was so hard for me to accept before, because back then slowing down meant death.

To get to my point, I'm starting to question just how binary I really am. I'm still entirely feminine, and I know there's no right way to be a woman, but now that I've finally sat down and thought about it honestly, without my old traumas breathing down my neck, I'm thinking that maybe Woman with a capital W might not be 100% right for me. Or maybe it is, and maybe I just don't feel obligated to be as femme as humanly possible for my womanhood to be acknowledged. I don't know what nuances my gender might have that'd distinguish me from binary women, except that when I asked some friends to use they/them pronouns with me it... actually felt really good. Like, it was almost as much of a relief to not feel like I have to be the femmiest femme to have ever femmed as it was when I realized I didn't have to be a man. Maybe I'm overthinking it cause I'm just so used to something being wrong that I don't know how not to be in survival mode. Like I don't know how to just be OK, rather than be perpetually on my way to being OK. I don't know. Shit's scary.
 
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sandshrewz

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A couple of things caught my attention recently. The Bert and Ernie thing was brought up. Also India repealed Section 377, which was a relic from British rule that criminalised gay sex. As per history repeating, there's also been stirring within my own country, Singapore, to repeal a similar law, following India's. But I'm not going to go into detail on the latter topic, not today at least.

So to provide some context, Singapore I'd say, has a very mixed population when it comes to being very Asian-conservative, and also at the same time the opposite end as well. As for the mentioned 377A law, there is strong support for both repealing and keeping the law. I personally still feel that generally, the population leans towards the more conservative side with regards to most things. And with that, Singapore is also known to have quite some censorship, especially when it comes to the media. More specifically, entertainment media like movies can have sensitive scenes cut out to meet certain ratings, and might be more stringent than most countries.

From my view, mainstream media has generally avoided "taboo" topics with a 10ft pole. However, more recently have I started to notice such topics being strewn into local TV dramas, sometimes subtly, sometimes just plain out. While it wasn't uncommon that there were shows with cases of husbands two-timing, not long back did I notice the first case of polyamory being portrayed. To save a Google search, it means a person is able to love more than one person at a time. The drama clearly painted out a husband two-timing in the traditional fashion, but unlike the usual, there was a subtle struggle that was shown whereby the husband showed that he really couldn't bear to part with either of his loved. It wasn't going to be another one of those "ditch the vixen and go back to wife" plot. It dragged out long and painted the pain and dilemma the guy was facing, perhaps trying to make it more obvious that this case was different. As to be expected of the setting being in a monogamous society, the guy was eventually left with neither of them and suffered badly, with no inkling as to why he loved two people and not being able to make a choice. For a different drama I watched today, well, they basically had a trans female character, thrown out by her father and was late to see him on his death bed since she thought he had no longer recognised her as his own. This one was plain out in the open, and dang did I regret not watching this episode on screen with my conservative parents and wondering what their reactions might be lol.

Well yea that's two examples of my observation of mainstream media here slowly progressing and increasing exposure to different topics. The polyamory one especially might be too subtle to pick up on for most viewers. Heck maybe I'm reading too much into the show but it seemed very clear to me. Overall I'd say I'm pleasantly surprised. And no I don't recall seeing any gay couples on dramas so far; that'd be way too obvious and perhaps triggering to a good portion of the population lol. But yea, happy with the exploration of topics!

So if anyone would like to share how media in your country or other countries have portrayed such similar topics, that'll be cool too.
 

teachable

Banned deucer.
hey y'all, I need a place to post this. I've been isolated for the past 2 days with a lot on my mind and it's not appropriate for my other channels. Y'all know this place means a lot to me from my article.
I'm finally realizing how much trauma I have from my childhood and coming to terms with this is making me truely angry about my childhood and what these people have done to me without me realizing. PTSD has given me DID and its sad to see how unejoyable society has made such a large portion of my life because of what they did to me. How the trauma still makes me suffer. How my autism and the naivety I have from it makes me set myself up to get hurt.

And sadly, how my trauma makes me hurt other people.

It's not forgiveable and it me angry in a way that I finally feel I can use as motivation instead of for self hatred. My life is important and there's so much to enjoy, it's not my fault. Life fucking blows, because of what society has done to me, but I'm content right now with the emotions I have and reassurance that it's going to get better despite all my mistakes.

Don't ignore your mental health. DM me if you're going through something, need material help, whatever. You really can't realize what abuse and trauma is doing to you until you explore it. Don't let yourself hurt anyone.
 
To get to my point, I'm starting to question just how binary I really am. I'm still entirely feminine, and I know there's no right way to be a woman, but now that I've finally sat down and thought about it honestly, without my old traumas breathing down my neck, I'm thinking that maybe Woman with a capital W might not be 100% right for me. Or maybe it is, and maybe I just don't feel obligated to be as femme as humanly possible for my womanhood to be acknowledged. I don't know what nuances my gender might have that'd distinguish me from binary women
I am in a similar place right now, I grew out of my girly pink phase, no longer necessarily need to wear skirts every day not to feel bad and started finding that a more androgynous approach might actually fit me better. Still, they/them pronouns do not appeal to me, yet I sometimes like rocking that flamboyant gay guy look (but dislike he/his pronouns even more than they/them). But cis women can prefer to be more androgynous too / can be occasionally drag kings or such without having to appropiate the non-binary trans label. Basically, what I am saying is that gender is difficult to figure out and to separate from just desired gender expression and you are not alone.
 
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