Social LGBTQIA+

Tenshi

and I think that's beautiful
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
On the note of predators, it's not like the real world isn't also full of manipulative people- If anything, online is objectively safer, as you can limit interactions with people as you please.
Not necessarily as online provides a sense of anonymity, which a lot of times provides a safety that can be abused. People are more likely to say and talk about personal things online which can be used against them if they're not careful. Typically that's a teen issue, a lot of predators are good at prying by making the people they're preying on feel safe and the anonymity goes both ways.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Please don't be so dismissive of someone whose journey you don't know about! Especially someone looking out for the interests of a vulnerable group of youth.
Wait, wasn't it starry being dismissive when she blew off all lgbtq online interaction?

-

And where would half of you be without these online social groups, anyway? You just want the next generation to go back to what, exactly? All those hoppin' social spaces available to them in [backwards rural community]?
 

Exeggutor

twist
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Wait, wasn't it starry being dismissive when she blew off all lgbtq online interaction?

-

And where would half of you be without these online social groups, anyway? You just want the next generation to go back to what, exactly? All those hoppin' social spaces available to them in [backwards rural community]?
"Avoid spending too much time online" is not blowing off all LGBTQ online interaction.

I can tell you several positives that would have come from not being a part of certain groups - not being groomed by older people, for starters. I doubt starry's intention was "never join LGBT communities ever," because having likeminded communities around your identity is great! But as a young trans person, I found a lot of the groups that I was in made me a lot more anxious, made me compare myself to others and their journeys constantly, and made me a generally more sad person. I felt a lot better when I left the majority of those communities and either kept in contact with people I wanted to or stayed in communities that only brought me joy.

I wish I was more careful about where I joined when I was a gay baby, because it would have saved me a lot of stress, anxiety, and general bad feelings. And grooming. And I don't think starry advising youth to be careful in a way they might have appreciated when they were younger is a bad thing, either.

If you see "be careful and don't stay online too much" as "blowing off all online interaction," you need to reassess your relationship with the internet.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
If you see "be careful and don't stay online too much" as "blowing off all online interaction," you need to reassess your relationship with the internet.
Cute but there wasn't any such nuance you're alluding to in her post. There was no "some of them are damaging" etc. It was an all-or-nothing approach.

I'm incredibly thankful of the online spaces I had growing up. They gave me a lot of the confidence I was lacking as a teenager. Putting a massive caution tape over them without hesitating to think that they might be the only access a nervous/depressed young person has to the outside world is alarmist and unfair. You want to warn them about the dangers of the internet? Sure, everybody needs to stay vigilant. But the holier-than-thou approach like what she did is incredibly entitled.
 

Adeleine

after committing a dangerous crime
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Starry said a good thing that needed to be said. I can speak from fresh experience as introducing myself to the Smogon community recently, and even with my being older and having more time to answer my identity questions, I've had to consciously shake off things like comparison anxieties and the like from time to time. Being able to see I'm not the only one to suffer from this was really nice, actually. And this is with an exceptionally kind and supportive community as Smogon's that I have seen so far. This doesn't mean I don't absolutely enjoy the community, I do and am very glad I found it and introduced myself, but that there are definitely risks for younger people I have definitely got glimpses into, that shouldn't be ignored just because such spaces as these are generally good.

Maybe starry was too dismissive. But starry also said something important. And that's a good thing.
 
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Exeggutor

twist
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Cute but there wasn't any such nuance you're alluding to in her post. There was no "some of them are damaging" etc. It was an all-or-nothing approach.

I'm incredibly thankful of the online spaces I had growing up. They gave me a lot of the confidence I was lacking as a teenager. Putting a massive caution tape over them without hesitating to think that they might be the only access a nervous/depressed young person has to the outside world is alarmist and unfair. You want to warn them about the dangers of the internet? Sure, everybody needs to stay vigilant. But the holier-than-thou approach like what she did is incredibly entitled.
My bad then. I don't agree with writing all communities off, but they did say "don't spend too much time online" which is what I agree with.

I will preach being careful and advocate for self-monitoring in online groups, especially LGBT groups, and especially with a large age range, until the end of time. I don't want to come across as holier-than-thou, and I doubt starry wants to either. But I am very concerned about other LGBT youth and the online spaces we create and participate in, because they can break us down as much as they build us up. God knows I've gone through enough of that to have an idea of it.

I'd also like to thank starry for getting this discussion started publicly. I've talked about this at length with many friends of mine, as it's something I'm passionate about, and I'm so glad to see other people talking about it, too.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Exeggutor just so we're clear, I didn't think you were being "holier-than-thou." And anyway, I'm sure what starry said was 100% meant to be nurturing.

I don't mean any ill-will to someone who intends to be thoughtful about vulnerable populations. I just think the approach was iffy. That's all.

However, I cannot speak for every experience, so for anyone who has had a bad one, it bears sharing to keep these things in mind during your journey. If I came across too overbearing, then I apologize.
 

Asheviere

Banned deucer.
Starry said a good thing that needed to be said. I can speak from fresh experience as introducing myself to the Smogon community recently, and even with my being older and having more time to answer my identity questions, I've had to consciously shake off things like comparison anxieties and the like from time to time. And this is with an exceptionally kind and supportive community as Smogon's that I have seen so far. This doesn't mean I don't absolutely enjoy the community, I do and am very glad I found it and introduced myself, but that there are definitely risks for younger people I have definitely got glimpses into, that shouldn't be ignored just because such spaces as these are generally good.

Maybe starry was too dismissive. But starry also said something important. And that's a good thing.
What important thing? To be wary of online communities and predators, and not lose sight of reality? While it is true and important, this applies to the entire internet, and is not anything new at all. Bringing this up specifically in this context and about specifically LGBT spaces feels like there is some less than stellar intent here and while the core message there is arguably good, the way it is presented and the intent behind the post cloud any good message in there.
 

Adeleine

after committing a dangerous crime
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
What important thing? To be wary of online communities and predators, and not lose sight of reality? While it is true and important, this applies to the entire internet, and is not anything new at all. Bringing this up specifically in this context and about specifically LGBT spaces feels like there is some less than stellar intent here and while the core message there is arguably good, the way it is presented and the intent behind the post cloud any good message in there.
It applies to the entire internet, but it is especially important to younger members of the LGBT community who are still in the earlier steps of forming their own identities, and therefore are especially vulnerable to self-doubt and to blanket-agreeing with others in efforts to find fellowship/community.
I don't mean to insult the independence of others when I mention blanket-agreeing: if I myself had found this community when I was younger, it's entirely possible that I would be suffering pressure to transition even though I do not want to for my own reasons, either causing me stress and other such problems or even bringing me to make a long-lasting choice I would regret. This isn't because people here pressure me to transition, they don't, but because being in the formative steps of one's identity is hard.
Again, these younger members should still be encouraged to seek and get benefit from communities like this. But they should also be specifically aware that, in this specific context, not pulling the computer plug can cause specific problems.

E: Just to be clear, I don't mean to imply that the majority of people transition or feel inclined to transition out of pressure. Just that, if someone had no desire to transition as I did/do, in that specific case such pressure would be external.
 
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Tenshi

and I think that's beautiful
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
I think it's more important to insure that our community is free from any sick groomers and predators than it is arguing. Being involved in LGBT groups is absolutely beneficial for young people who often don't know or understand what they are and knowing people who they can relate to is a massive burden lifted off of them. It also provides people they can confide in. I, for example, benefited largely from having LGBT friends from PS to talk to and it ended up helping me ultimately come out to my parents which I would've absolutely never done without knowing that I had at least some people who were there for me despite them not knowing me personally.
 

Asheviere

Banned deucer.
I don't mean to insult the independence of others when I mention blanket-agreeing: if I myself had found this community when I was younger, it's entirely possible that I would be suffering pressure to transition even though I do not want to for my own reasons, either causing me stress and other such problems or even bringing me to make a long-lasting choice I would regret. This isn't because people here pressure me to transition, they don't, but because being in the formative steps of one's identity is hard.
I have this thing pressuring me to transition. It's called gender dysphoria.
 
i want to make 1 thing very very clear: i said avoid spending too much time online. i did not make any blanket statement about online queer spaces as a whole, nor did i say these types of online spaces serve no purpose. many of these spaces help LGBT youth with finding actual resources or just giving them the ability to relate their experiences to others in the spaces.

my issue specifically is with people who use these spaces for extreme escapism (mostly trans). it is no surprise that many LGBT youth are vulnerable, so looking for a form of escapism is understandable. treating these online spaces like a second home is an issue because, well, the other people doing this in those spaces likely have serious issues themselves, and for younger LGBT people, this could lead to you finding poor role models when you are easily malleable.

yes, i also think this is an issue with online chats at large, Asheviere, but i think it is especially applicable to LGBT youth due to how much more vulnerable they are, and specifically how this vulnerability manifests in issues that harm these individuals themselves: depression, anxiety, lack of confidence, low self esteem, feeling inferior / like "the other", suicidal thoughts, loneliness... yes, these can probably be applied to other groups of people online as well, but i have experience with LGBT groups, not whatever other groups these things might apply to.

in the many, many LGBT (mostly trans focused, like this thread, lol.) i've been in over the last 6+ years, i can't tell you how many times i've seen young kids (myself included) calling an older member of the chat their trans/gay mom/dad in a not-so-jokey way. it was clear in these instances that the younger person really looked up to the older person, and looking back... probably 9/10 of the older people in these scenarios had serious issues, were very poorly adjusted, and overall just plain horrible role models for young kids to look up to. that might sound kinda judgmental and harsh, but i emphasize those issues because for me and a bunch of my other friends that i was in these servers with, having issues like this became the new normal to us. i've talked with a lot of them about this, and surrounding yourself with these types of people just worsened those feelings of hopelessness.

i do want to be clear, i have also found some genuine role models in these chats... most of them being people who were seriously inactive and just popped in to help answer questions, and all of them being people who explicitly told me to stop participating in these chats. i wish i listened.

as i said though, these chats make a lot of unhealthy things seem normal: measuring your shoulders / head size and comparing it with average female measurements, having one or more "e-girlfriends" (many of these "relationships" had serious age gaps), constantly, constantly venting and moping about your problems and ignoring any solutions provided to try and fix them by the sincere members of chat, extremely radical politics... these chats spawned from many different but popular social media websites: twitter, 4chan, reddit... others were IRC chats.

my point: using these chats as a resource or to occasionally socialize is good and beneficial to LGBT kids who really lack good resources. Aurora's post did a lovely job of conveying my views on this, especially that last paragraph. it's hard for a lot of kids to exercise moderation naturally, which is why i'm just trying to fucking tell you fuckers to limit yourselves and go outside.

also Asheviere your posts aren't cute or funny they're just fucking obnoxious since everyone else is trying to have a polite discussion here. you can look at posts like EV's if you want to learn how to disagree in a respectful way.
 

Adeleine

after committing a dangerous crime
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
They'd feel like people are willing to stand up to the popular belief out of care for them. And that people are willing to disagree with that challenge, also out of care. I do hope that is a good thing, regardless of our different opinions.
 

Exeggutor

twist
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Honestly, why is this even a discussion we're having? I think I can speak for most people here when I say that I have felt significantly more pressure on a consistent basis from society in general to not be LGBTQ+, not the opposite of that. Nobody who I've ever talked to who experiences or has experienced these emotions in the past has ever said "hey man yeah being trans is great, super fun 24/7 really enjoyable it's so much fun you should totally do it too". It's always been the opposite of that. Because it does suck to live with dysphoria, even if it is better than repressing it.

To get more directly to the point I'm trying to make, I don't see how this circular argument helps anyone at all. All it seems to be doing over the past couple days is increase tensions within this community, and in turn make this thread feel more abrasive and less safe & accepting. Can't imagine what a new user reading this thread hoping they've found somewhere to ask genuine advice or questions would feel like right now.
Do you think the people bringing up something relevant to a large part of the LGBT are just doing it for shits and giggles? It's a serious issue, and one that I've got personal experience with. We're all LGBT in here - nobody's posting stuff just to start shit. I'm concerned by a lot of trends I've seen in various LGBT communities and the initial post, and some recent events, made me want to post it here. This isn't about people theoretically saying "aw gee being trans is So Fun" and I don't know where you got that from any post in here.

Regardless of whether or not you like it, being LGBT does not mean everything has to be constantly happy and cheery. Our communities have issues just as other communities do, and we're allowed to discuss them. It's not some conflict people are just manifesting - I've talked to multiple people about this within other context numerous times, and more recently with multiple people within this context. If multiple, unrelated people see something as concerning, maybe their concerns have weight?

Also, if the slightest hint of any conflict drives people away, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Welcome to the internet/groups of people, I guess.
 

Asheviere

Banned deucer.
my issue specifically is with people who use these spaces for extreme escapism (mostly trans). it is no surprise that many LGBT youth are vulnerable, so looking for a form of escapism is understandable. treating these online spaces like a second home is an issue because, well, the other people doing this in those spaces likely have serious issues themselves, and for younger LGBT people, this could lead to you finding poor role models when you are easily malleable.

yes, i also think this is an issue with online chats at large, Asheviere, but i think it is especially applicable to LGBT youth due to how much more vulnerable they are, and specifically how this vulnerability manifests in issues that harm these individuals themselves: depression, anxiety, lack of confidence, low self esteem, feeling inferior / like "the other", suicidal thoughts, loneliness... yes, these can probably be applied to other groups of people online as well, but i have experience with LGBT groups, not whatever other groups these things might apply to.
See and I definitely agree here, but this is a balance we also try to strike in a lot of other PS/Smogon related communities. There are a lot of kids, LGBT or not, who struggle with the amount of escapism the internet provides. Of course, this is especially true for the LGBT community, since they often don't have other places to express themselves and really need some form of escapism. I definitely think LGBT spaces need to be strictly moderated for this reason, and have people in charge who know the issues and can competently handle the subject matter.

in the many, many LGBT (mostly trans focused, like this thread, lol.) i've been in over the last 6+ years, i can't tell you how many times i've seen young kids (myself included) calling an older member of the chat their trans/gay mom/dad in a not-so-jokey way. it was clear in these instances that the younger person really looked up to the older person, and looking back... probably 9/10 of the older people in these scenarios had serious issues, were very poorly adjusted, and overall just plain horrible role models for young kids to look up to. that might sound kinda judgmental and harsh, but i emphasize those issues because for me and a bunch of my other friends that i was in these servers with, having issues like this became the new normal to us. i've talked with a lot of them about this, and surrounding yourself with these types of people just worsened those feelings of hopelessness.
However, here is where you start losing me a little bit. While I agree I've seen some poor role models in LGBT servers, and it is definitely true that a lot of LGBT people have serious issues, I once again think this is an issue due to poor choice of staff and ownership which plagues online communities far beyond LGBT. The people in charge of any LGBT space should 1. be in a stable frame of mind 2. make sure to show where horrible role models are being horrible role models. Again, I think LGBT is very sensitive subject matter, and attention and care are needed when selecting people to run these places and make sure kids aren't getting bad advice from bad role models.

as i said though, these chats make a lot of unhealthy things seem normal: measuring your shoulders / head size and comparing it with average female measurements, having one or more "e-girlfriends" (many of these "relationships" had serious age gaps), constantly, constantly venting and moping about your problems and ignoring any solutions provided to try and fix them by the sincere members of chat, extremely radical politics... these chats spawned from many different but popular social media websites: twitter, 4chan, reddit... others were IRC chats.
And here you completely lose me. In all the trans spaces I've been in, comparing yourself to cis women is very much discouraged because there's no way that ever leads to healthy thoughts. I like how you lightly use the term "e-girlfriend" in a very dismissive way, when that is by no means all of the reality. Dating is a very large struggle for trans people, and obviously, a lot of them seek to express their romantic and sexual feelings over the internet instead. I have seen so many users on PS with relationships you blatantly dismiss, many of which are definitely real relationships, and a vast majority of them did not involve trans people (or LGBT in general) at all. I do agree with you on larger age gaps being off putting, but if both partners are of age, that is both legally and morally "none of my god damn business". In regards to people constantly venting and moping without solutions, I feel like that's all up to staffing and general culture in the spaces, and that is an issue I've seen be way more persistent OUTSIDE of LGBT spaces. It is true that a lot of trans people are left-leaning too, but to call it "extremely radical politics" is a little far fetched. Trans people just generally lean to the side of the spectrum that advocates for more trans rights. If you're listing "4chan" as one of your first sources for trans communities, I can understand where you're coming from, but that's a really extreme example. I've been in trans communities where there was little to no political discussion (besides LGBT rights), which is honestly quite refreshing.

I think in general, your issues are with specific bad communities you have been in, and a general trend of bad internet communities, but you're still being way too generalizing for my taste. I very much agree with your sentiment that LGBT spaces need to be strictly moderated and be handled with the care they deserve, but you are being very dismissive of the whole idea of LGBT spaces. I think GOOD LGBT spaces and support groups exist, also on the internet, and it's way more important and useful to focus on creating more of those and cultivating the good ones that exist, as opposed to focusing on the negatives as much as you've been doing.

also Asheviere your posts aren't cute or funny they're just fucking obnoxious since everyone else is trying to have a polite discussion here.
idk what to say here but sure
 
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ehT

:dog:
is a Contributor Alumnus
Hey starry blanket, I hope this doesn't come across as confrontational, cause honestly fuck Internet slapfights and fuck bad vibes, but can I ask you to please not publicly vague about my moderation style in PokePride? If you have complaints, please voice them to me directly. I'm actually really chill and approachable if you do, cause I guarantee you I have a good reason for everything I do. I DM'd you this initially but I thought it would be better to just have nothing off the record just so we can clear the air for everyone with similar gripes. I really don't wanna call you out here but it's just cramping my style, man. Nothing personal. This'll save a lot of uncertainty and tension for everyone involved. Not for me just for everyone, cause we can feel the tension.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
I read this thread every now and then because it's interesting and warms my heart to see people being proud of who they are. But something has been bothering me with some of the posts lately (not related to this whole argument above). I feel like in a lot of these posts there's this real hard reinforcement of rigid gender boundaries. A lot of the trans coming out content seems like it doesn't really have to do with gender dysphoria, but more "I've had stereotypical female interests since I was a child, so I am a female." Now, I'm not denying this statement at all; there's no reason it shouldn't be true or that being trans should be relegated to those with gender dysphoria alone. But it got me thinking.... I'm a pretty feminine guy in a lot of respects. I've certainly daydreamed about being female many times, and if I had a choice yeah I'd probably choose to be born as a female. But a lot of this has to do with in what is my opinion, flawed concepts about what it means to be male. I hate toxic masculinity and have struggled with its effects all my life. Men aren't supposed to be vulnerable. We don't really tend to bare our emotions with our friends and support each other the way women do (in general), and if we do there's a real stigma against it. Men who have "feminine" interests and aren't manly get made fun of in a way that it isn't acceptable to do with women who have "masculine" interests anymore. I think it would be really cool if we as a society could expand the traditional concept of what it means to be a man. I also don't know if it is particularly helpful for LGBTQ+ community to play with such hard rigid concepts of gender as it seems it can just cause more stress than necessary. Anyway I don't even know where I am going with this anymore I just wanted to start a discussion :blobshrug:
 

Asheviere

Banned deucer.
While I think it's true that social norms like clothing, behavior etc. aren't at all intrinsically gendered, we do grow up on these social norms and they do still matter when it comes to how others perceive us, and how we perceive ourselves. I think it's impossible to see the desire to conform more to gender roles associated with another gender as something separate from body dysphoria. I do want to eventually live in a world where it's more accepted for people to express themselves in less typically binary gendered ways, but that's sadly not the world we live in currently, and the social effects our gender roles have can be just as large if not larger than any body-related issues and progress.
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
My argument is twofold: there is a (natural) misunderstanding of gender roles and social norms in this chat, partially due to the online nature of the chat; the crowd that would frequent this thread and forum tend to be much younger (and therefore not fully developed or going through puberty themselves). In this post I will break down both of these topics, bouncing off of several statements from the above. My purpose is not to inflame anyone, belittle anyone's journey, or to cast doubt, but instead to provide knowledge from a more academic background.

On gender roles and social norms; The concept of toxic masculinity in the past few posts seem to be very bare bones, designed as a catch-all for problematic behaviors. This amalgamation of the word and its uses devalue any salient reasoning one grasps from the posts, as they seem to write off masculinity for good. Toxic masculinity is a modern result of the 1980s term "hegemonic masculinity." Hegemonic masculinity represents the idea of the dominant place for men in society and justifications for the subordination of the common man and woman. In reality, masculinity, just like aspects of femininity, are not clearly defined, are malleable and unique, even in homogenous cultures. Countries such as Chile, or Japan, which have a tight collectivist culture still have wildly varying cultures of masculinity. Ironically, the biggest criticism of the modern attributions to masculinity are that it invokes a heteronormative concept of gender identity. This paper goes into great detail on the history and uses of the term masculinity, specifically hegemonic masculinity and how it relates to toxic masculinity today. Connell and Messerschmidt argue that the only reason it is so prolific today in common discourse is due to the vague definiteness of the terms, allowing for crops of research to flourish. "The notion that the concept of masculinity essentializes or homogenizes is quite difficult to reconcile with the tremendous multiplicity of social constructions that ethnographers and historians have documented with the aid of this concept." I think, with this in mind, it is dangerous thinking to attribute this vague concept, disputed heavily by philosophers, historians, psychologists, that it has such a powerful impact on one's life, almost to the same extent as the weather. There is this tendency to dichotomize the experiences of men and women, to separate them as if they each live different worlds; this tendency waters down the approaches and criticisms of 'toxic masculinity,' as masculinity is neither exclusive to males nor is femininity free from reproach. I find it ironic the emphasis placed on these aspects cultivating one's experience, of one's wish to conform to those pre-determined concepts, with the movements tied behind the common search for one's identity. It seems far superior to shed off gender norms, roles, and expectations entirely, and to be comfortable with one's self, not for the validation of other's expectations but within one's self.

My second argument touches on the things starry blanket said, as well as the firebot post (now since deleted). I do think that there should be an area for those questioning to be able to feel supported, as I realize that not everyone has that luxury due to living circumstances. Nonetheless, one needs to take care of the situations one put's oneself in, as well as be able to introspect and analyze your situation neutrally. Executive functioning, the capacity to plan, coordinate, and execute schemas, is not fully developed in the individual until 25; more importantly, however, are that teenagers process information primarily through their amygdala, part of the emotional center of the brain (source). What this means is that decisions made by adults are logistically thought through, whereas in teenagers they are emotively thought through; in addition, there is the self-evident nature of puberty, which leads to natural hormonal changes throughout the body as well as a plethora of confusing thoughts and ideas. Studies show that one of the most prevalent thoughts and fixations while going through puberty are a fascination with body image, and one's self esteem is primarily linked to body image at that age. These characteristics combined are a potent brew for the seemingly innocuous praise and online support of transitioning, making an already incredibly difficult period even more confusing due to the need for others validation. That there are non reversible factors involved with hrt are the majority of my concerns on this point lie; sterility in particular is a tough decision to make prior to being a "real adult." This article goes into depth on the historical connotations of gender dysphoria, its etymology and implications for the future. Bray also presents an argument for reshaping what is considered "recreational body modification" and "necessary body modification," the validity of self-reporting coming from a separate author's description of "propriodescriptive authority." I highly recommend perusing through the article, or the book Epistemology of the Closet.

I think both of those combined illustrate some of the concerns that starry blanket seemed to bring up. The internet is a dangerous place, full of misinformation (yes, even on the "academic" side, as in the case of social psychology). The proliferation of twitter and google and several other sites allow individuals to be exposed to a wide range of ideas, not all good or even accurate, and a limited understanding only maligns the individual. It is important to ask yourself how much one is attempting to validate's others perceptions of your own identity; to ask oneself what one's identity even means, and to weigh the consequences of such actions holistically. I think it is very important for those questioning to have a safe place to affirm one's self worth, but at the same time starry's point should not be buried; it is vitally important for one's mental health to get off the internet and to interact in the real world, to live one's life. It is equally important to discern Many's point; identity is what you make of it. If you question traditional gender roles that is great, however it would probably be far more productive to cast them off entirely, and just be yourself. I think if one has concerns of how others perceive you then you must look inward to discover why someone else's validation bothers you or helps you. From Halberstam's Female Masculinity: "The idea that only transsexuals experience the pain of a ‘wrong body’ shows an incredible myopia about the trials and tribulations of many varieties of perverse embodiment.”
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
A lot of the trans coming out content seems like it doesn't really have to do with gender dysphoria, but more "I've had stereotypical female interests since I was a child, so I am a female." Now, I'm not denying this statement at all; there's no reason it shouldn't be true or that being trans should be relegated to those with gender dysphoria alone. But it got me thinking.... I'm a pretty feminine guy in a lot of respects. I've certainly daydreamed about being female many times, and if I had a choice yeah I'd probably choose to be born as a female. But a lot of this has to do with in what is my opinion, flawed concepts about what it means to be male. I hate toxic masculinity and have struggled with its effects all my life. Men aren't supposed to be vulnerable. We don't really tend to bare our emotions with our friends and support each other the way women do (in general), and if we do there's a real stigma against it. Men who have "feminine" interests and aren't manly get made fun of in a way that it isn't acceptable to do with women who have "masculine" interests anymore. I think it would be really cool if we as a society could expand the traditional concept of what it means to be a man. I also don't know if it is particularly helpful for LGBTQ+ community to play with such hard rigid concepts of gender as it seems it can just cause more stress than necessary. Anyway I don't even know where I am going with this anymore I just wanted to start a discussion :blobshrug:

i think a missing/unmentioned difference/marker here is desire. If you're a feminine man instead of nb or trans it could be because you don't desire to live your sexuality as a woman, not because you don't identify with femininity and/or the associated gender roles. it isn't always or usually true that gender roles determine sexual identification, it can go the other way, tho ppl will hate me for saying my truth: my desire determines gender which then determines my sex, but the dysphoria might be in the desiring part, not in an incongruity between gender role and sex.

https://genius.com/Judith-butler-ge...subjects-of-sex-gender-desire-i-iii-annotated

"The heterosexualization of desire requires and institutes the production of discrete and asymmetrical oppositions between “feminine” and “masculine,” where these are understood as expressive attributes of “male” and “female.” The cultural matrix through which gender identity has become intelligible requires that certain kinds of “identities” cannot “exist”—that is, those in which gender does not follow from sex and those in which the practices of desire do not “follow” from either sex or gender."


I feel like directing women and nbs to answer any questions which relates to toxic masculinity is futile because it's mens' work and the more we try to do it for them the more entrenched in toxic masculinity they become.

Ppl can try to keep "gotcha"-ing amab trans ppl into describing their journey as merely a reductive attempt to escape from toxic masculinity, but idk i think amab trans ppl don't have anything to say on the subject that would actually help men, and it's more that the men in this situation keeping expecting women/nb to do that work for them, even tho we literally can't and even tho it's really unhelpful and unhealthy for us to constantly be told all we are trying to do is avoid working on toxic masculinity as it implies we are actually men and that our gender is escapism.
 
shit with words so this will prolly suck, but I’m out everywhere on ps so I might as well post now.

Hi, I’m a trans girl (mtf).
nothing much to say beyond thanks, so:
s/o Robyn for helping me with all of this, would have taken so much longer otherwise - love u <3
massive thanks to help auth too, people are scary and hearing support from everyone else helped so much!
probably surprising to a lot of you who know me; i’m actually super shy irl and barely talkative. As soon as it comes to anything important, I kind of mentally shut down and out, so all of this has been super weird for me. thanks so much to everyone who said something, from helping me figure all of this out, to just using the pronouns I asked - it helps more than you know.

getting kinda repetitive now lol, so uh yeah.
maybe I’ll make a less shit post later :blobshrug: but this is terrifying rn anyway lol
Never apologize for your post, when you’re just trying to be yourself! It takes a lot of courage to come out, and proud of you for being open about it! Keep it up, and wishing you the best with this!
 
cw: transition regret, abuse, trauma, potentially very GD/anxiety-triggering content--

A friend on PS! asked me to post here... I'm looking for advice, or even just sympathy.

I'm a 22-year old trans woman, and I've been living as my assumed gender for over 11 years now. My mother diagnosed me as transgender in my early adolescence based on what she viewed as certain effeminate tendencies, and unilaterally began the process of medical transition. I was taken to doctors who, after briefly interviewing me and my mother, confirmed this diagnosis and signed off on my treatment. I was put on blockers at a very early age, dressed in girls' clothing, and socialized as a girl for most of my life. My memory of my time pre-transition is hazy, but I'm not sure if I actually felt like a girl back then. I did enjoy the attention lavished on me by my mother (who had treated me coldly pre-transition), and I think I recognized on some level that my mother loved me more when she thought of me as her daughter. I barely had a conception of my self in those days, let alone a handle on my "gender identity". I did understand that I wasn't like the "other boys" - I preferred to stay at home and read rather than play sports, I played with dolls, I sometimes painted my nails and put on makeup. So I assumed my mother knew best and went along with her wishes, culminating in SRS when I was 18.

Now that I'm older... I wish I didn't. I don't feel the "gender euphoria" many trans women describe when living as their preferred gender. I look inside and I just feel... numb. I look in the mirror and I struggle to recognize what I see looking back as myself. I look like a child, but increasingly, and it sickens and embarrasses me to even admit this, I feel like a man... later, in sessions with my own therapist I would learn that my mother had Munchausens-by-proxy. Last year I broke down and accused her of ruining my life, and she called me ungrateful.

I see no way out of this body. Even if it weren't for the SRS, I never went through puberty, so detransitioning and living as a man is out of the question. I'm 5'4" (my father is 6"2' and my mother 5'10") - I have wide hips like a woman's, I have a constructed vagina that's traumatizing to maintain, I have breasts that I hate, my bones are brittle, I get tired easily, I have mood swings all the time. Many trans women in support groups tell me that they wish they looked like me, the irony of which depresses me to the point of tears. Some days I feel like I can learn to accept the body that I'm stuck in, but most of the time I know I'm just kidding myself. I would give anything to go back in time and prevent my mother from ever planting this idea that I was trans in my head in the first place. I feel like a wolf trapped in a toy poodle's body.

I want to stress that I understand this isn't everyone's experience transitioning. Most people, especially those that transition without parental/institutional pressure, generally see outcomes that they can live with. I guess I was part of a minority? but information on transition regretters/detransitioners is so hard to come by, that I don't even know how many others like me are out there. Is there anyone here that managed to detransition/live a normal life after transitioning as an adolescent? do you have any advice for me?
 
cw: transition regret, abuse, trauma, potentially very GD/anxiety-triggering content--

A friend on PS! asked me to post here... I'm looking for advice, or even just sympathy.

I'm a 22-year old trans woman, and I've been living as my assumed gender for over 11 years now. My mother diagnosed me as transgender in my early adolescence based on what she viewed as certain effeminate tendencies, and unilaterally began the process of medical transition. I was taken to doctors who, after briefly interviewing me and my mother, confirmed this diagnosis and signed off on my treatment. I was put on blockers at a very early age, dressed in girls' clothing, and socialized as a girl for most of my life. My memory of my time pre-transition is hazy, but I'm not sure if I actually felt like a girl back then. I did enjoy the attention lavished on me by my mother (who had treated me coldly pre-transition), and I think I recognized on some level that my mother loved me more when she thought of me as her daughter. I barely had a conception of my self in those days, let alone a handle on my "gender identity". I did understand that I wasn't like the "other boys" - I preferred to stay at home and read rather than play sports, I played with dolls, I sometimes painted my nails and put on makeup. So I assumed my mother knew best and went along with her wishes, culminating in SRS when I was 18.

Now that I'm older... I wish I didn't. I don't feel the "gender euphoria" many trans women describe when living as their preferred gender. I look inside and I just feel... numb. I look in the mirror and I struggle to recognize what I see looking back as myself. I look like a child, but increasingly, and it sickens and embarrasses me to even admit this, I feel like a man... later, in sessions with my own therapist I would learn that my mother had Munchausens-by-proxy. Last year I broke down and accused her of ruining my life, and she called me ungrateful.

I see no way out of this body. Even if it weren't for the SRS, I never went through puberty, so detransitioning and living as a man is out of the question. I'm 5'4" (my father is 6"2' and my mother 5'10") - I have wide hips like a woman's, I have a constructed vagina that's traumatizing to maintain, I have breasts that I hate, my bones are brittle, I get tired easily, I have mood swings all the time. Many trans women in support groups tell me that they wish they looked like me, the irony of which depresses me to the point of tears. Some days I feel like I can learn to accept the body that I'm stuck in, but most of the time I know I'm just kidding myself. I would give anything to go back in time and prevent my mother from ever planting this idea that I was trans in my head in the first place. I feel like a wolf trapped in a toy poodle's body.

I want to stress that I understand this isn't everyone's experience transitioning. Most people, especially those that transition without parental/institutional pressure, generally see outcomes that they can live with. I guess I was part of a minority? but information on transition regretters/detransitioners is so hard to come by, that I don't even know how many others like me are out there. Is there anyone here that managed to detransition/live a normal life after transitioning as an adolescent? do you have any advice for me?
I know you mentioned a full transition back to being male is out of the question, but maybe just doing what you can to talk to your therapist about steps you can do to transition again.

It’s unfortunate that your mother forced that on you when you didn’t necessarily ask, and that may strain the relationship. I only say that because it’s just something to know going in.

While I haven’t necessarily experienced any of what you’re going through, maybe view it as retransitioning instead of detransitioning. It’s a slight change of wording but can help reinforce perspective. Also just do your best to be mindful of the fact that others may not know where you’re mentally at when addressing you, and while it can be hard when others talk (like the trans women), they might not know what’s going on for you.

Hope this helps!
 

Exeggutor

twist
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
cw: transition regret, abuse, trauma, potentially very GD/anxiety-triggering content--

A friend on PS! asked me to post here... I'm looking for advice, or even just sympathy.

I'm a 22-year old trans woman, and I've been living as my assumed gender for over 11 years now. My mother diagnosed me as transgender in my early adolescence based on what she viewed as certain effeminate tendencies, and unilaterally began the process of medical transition. I was taken to doctors who, after briefly interviewing me and my mother, confirmed this diagnosis and signed off on my treatment. I was put on blockers at a very early age, dressed in girls' clothing, and socialized as a girl for most of my life. My memory of my time pre-transition is hazy, but I'm not sure if I actually felt like a girl back then. I did enjoy the attention lavished on me by my mother (who had treated me coldly pre-transition), and I think I recognized on some level that my mother loved me more when she thought of me as her daughter. I barely had a conception of my self in those days, let alone a handle on my "gender identity". I did understand that I wasn't like the "other boys" - I preferred to stay at home and read rather than play sports, I played with dolls, I sometimes painted my nails and put on makeup. So I assumed my mother knew best and went along with her wishes, culminating in SRS when I was 18.

Now that I'm older... I wish I didn't. I don't feel the "gender euphoria" many trans women describe when living as their preferred gender. I look inside and I just feel... numb. I look in the mirror and I struggle to recognize what I see looking back as myself. I look like a child, but increasingly, and it sickens and embarrasses me to even admit this, I feel like a man... later, in sessions with my own therapist I would learn that my mother had Munchausens-by-proxy. Last year I broke down and accused her of ruining my life, and she called me ungrateful.

I see no way out of this body. Even if it weren't for the SRS, I never went through puberty, so detransitioning and living as a man is out of the question. I'm 5'4" (my father is 6"2' and my mother 5'10") - I have wide hips like a woman's, I have a constructed vagina that's traumatizing to maintain, I have breasts that I hate, my bones are brittle, I get tired easily, I have mood swings all the time. Many trans women in support groups tell me that they wish they looked like me, the irony of which depresses me to the point of tears. Some days I feel like I can learn to accept the body that I'm stuck in, but most of the time I know I'm just kidding myself. I would give anything to go back in time and prevent my mother from ever planting this idea that I was trans in my head in the first place. I feel like a wolf trapped in a toy poodle's body.

I want to stress that I understand this isn't everyone's experience transitioning. Most people, especially those that transition without parental/institutional pressure, generally see outcomes that they can live with. I guess I was part of a minority? but information on transition regretters/detransitioners is so hard to come by, that I don't even know how many others like me are out there. Is there anyone here that managed to detransition/live a normal life after transitioning as an adolescent? do you have any advice for me?
If you would like to talk please DM me. I can offer some resources that might be helpful. A lot of the pathways that help you, and that I've seen help detransitioned men, would be ones that trans men make use of extensively. Navigating detransitioning is very confusing and difficult, especially because the spaces for detransitioned people are often (rightfully) angry.

No matter what, it is never too late to live as what your true self is. Do not ever convince yourself of this. Things like height changes are unfortunately unlikely due to growth plates having sealed, but you can go through male puberty with the help of testosterone, and even SRS reconstruction may be possible.

I hope that you are well and, more importantly, that you stay safe. Like I said, if you would like more information, please DM - I can pass on an email address or my Discord if you'd like to discuss off site.
 
Warning, a loooong story...

Alright. I don’t talk about this very much. But I myself am gay. I found out when I was about... 12-13 years old? It began when I had a sleepover at my (past) best friends house. We played games and whatnot, but then he turned on suggestive material (lol, not sure if I should include the actual word for it here on this thread). I had never experienced or seen that before, so, naturally I was curious. Well, he slowly overtime changed it to gay material. He then wanted to try it, (oral) on me. I was kind of confused and scared. But I let it happen. In the morning I asked him about it and he faked confusion.. I was kind of annoyed. From then on, we had gotten pretty distant from each other. Fast forward to when I was about 15 years of age. I had written this experience down in a notebook and I had hidden it in between my mattress and the frame.... Well... One day, I come home from school and notice the notebook just.. laying there on the dining room table. I was shocked! I had no clue what to do. I wanted to disappear. I was so embarrassed, that when my parents eventually asked I immediately denied it (obviously they did not believe me). I felt as if there was no hope and my world collapsed. And boy did my parents go off. They are very religious (Christian) but, my father was saying things like, “Your gonna burn in hell you nasty (fggt) queer” and other words. A very funny instance was when he said “Your gonna die in hell” and sat there confused and told him that in order for me to go to hell I would need to die, and I can’t die twice.. My step-mother stayed quiet and didn’t help me at all. She just said that she was disappointed in me. Like WHAT!? It’s not like it’s a choice! Not according to my father. So, during that time, he would avoid me and not help me with anything at all. As well, I tried MANY times to “convert” myself to being heterosexual. To no avail.
These days, my parents dont talk about it much. A few of my friends know that I’m gay, and their okay with it. Due to the fact that I’m gay, they will not allow me to have a phone. Which is complete crap. They think that I’m going to watch porn and commit devious acts.
Sorry for ranting. Just fed up and I feel as if some of you guys would understand what I mean. But next summer I will be 18, so I’m just gonna buy my own. And wanna know something ironic??? I work at Chick-fil-a. The food is freaking amazing. Others ask me, “oh, don’t you know of their beliefs”? ummm... well duh. How would I not? But the owners of the establishment that i work at are inclusive. And they are very kind to me. Also, next summer I’m going to go to New York and visit my step-mother’s aunt and uncle. They accept me for who I am. And I think I will go to the Pride Parade. Because, why not?

btw, there is a lot more detail that I can go into and more stories, but for you guy’s sake, I refrained.

Thank You.
 
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