Social LGBTQIA+

Tenshi

and I think that's beautiful
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
It's pretty obvious that the issue people are having is that the state of the police is not an LGBTQ issue. You can use stonewall as an example of how cops have abused their power to enforce bigotry sure, but that doesn't make the discussion of reformation/abolishment of the police force an lgbt issue because it's not. This is an important discussion to be had sure but it would be much more productive to make a new thread about it or find a more fitting subforum, being condescending when people redirect or ignore you isn't how you settle something and makes you seem childish at best. I don't think anyone was out of line not wanting the discussion about cops here since I'm pretty sure you weren't talking about lgbtq+ cops

But that's all I have to input on this so you do you if doing you is what makes you happy :blobthumbsup:
 
the irony of this argument being used in an lgbtq thread is blowing my feeble mind right now. "maybe people would take u seriously if you werent so angry about it" like i'm really reading this ;_;
i know im convinced there are like a gang of people who just wait in corners for ppl to get mad abt something so they can chime in without reading anything lmao

It's pretty obvious that the issue people are having is that the state of the police is not an LGBTQ issue. You can use stonewall as an example of how cops have abused their power to enforce bigotry sure, but that doesn't make the discussion of reformation/abolishment of the police force an lgbt issue because it's not. This is an important discussion to be had sure but it would be much more productive to make a new thread about it or find a more fitting subforum, being condescending when people redirect or ignore you isn't how you settle something and makes you seem childish at best. I don't think anyone was out of line not wanting the discussion about cops here since I'm pretty sure you weren't talking about lgbtq+ cops

But that's all I have to input on this so you do you if doing you is what makes you happy :blobthumbsup:
It makes me very sad to see people picking and choosing what their politics involves. We should be a group that fights against all forms of oppression, and to do that we obviously need to discuss it. I thought this group would be better than my mum's facebook group, and it turns out it was much worse. (I went for melancholy here instead - I hope this suited you better?)
 

Exeggutor

twist
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
To be a bit more serious, in place of the mediocre argument above I'll talk a bit more about masculinity and womanhood

I have a testosterone appointment next week. This is something I've flip-flopped on for the last 4 or so years. It's the culmination of three years of waiting lists, clerical errors and appointment delays; two private doctors and a prescription that I didn't fulfil; and a psychologist with the mental health service. It's all come down to a meeting over Zoom with a clinician who knows my past and my identity through what's written down on my file.

It's taken this long in part because I'm hesitant. I've spoken previously about my social transition, my reidentification, and my social detransition. Everything that's led up to this point was fuelled by my own hesitation to commit to something that I did not want to regret. I do not regret my reidentification, and I am happy living as a woman without many other labels. But I still find myself wanting some of the masculinising effects of testosterone - the deeper voice, the effects on my body. Refusing to give myself a label beyond what I was born sometimes feels almost like a cop out, like I'm trying to escape the negatives attached with being transmasculine by saying I'm a woman.

At the same time, I find myself looking towards older detransitioned women, women who are older than me and have been through the wringer and have come out of it satisfied and happy. Their womanhood isn't questioned - they were born and are women, and it's not something they question. And yet it's something others question for them. It's something that the gender-critical rejoice in (before they realise you've transitioned medically and you're not as useful for virtue signalling.) It's something conservatives push as a narrative against transgender people. It's something some trans people look on with scepticism. No matter what I say I am - a woman, transmasculine, a trans man - my journey is the same, and no matter what I call myself my existence in an of itself is, to some people, political.

No matter what happens, I can choose to just "be" and not let these things impact me. They're other people's thoughts, after all. But I don't live in a bubble, and these are all things that I will have to reconcile with. No matter what I think about myself or call myself or decide to do with my body, everyone else has an opinion about it and a way they want to spin it, and it kind of sucks.

I am completely genuine when I say Son Goku is my role model though, he is buff as hell and fights for his friends
 

Crux

Banned deucer.
It's pretty obvious that the issue people are having is that the state of the police is not an LGBTQ issue. You can use stonewall as an example of how cops have abused their power to enforce bigotry sure, but that doesn't make the discussion of reformation/abolishment of the police force an lgbt issue because it's not. This is an important discussion to be had sure but it would be much more productive to make a new thread about it or find a more fitting subforum, being condescending when people redirect or ignore you isn't how you settle something and makes you seem childish at best. I don't think anyone was out of line not wanting the discussion about cops here since I'm pretty sure you weren't talking about lgbtq+ cops

But that's all I have to input on this so you do you if doing you is what makes you happy :blobthumbsup:
This is untrue. LGBT people are more likely to be targeted and harassed by police than others. They are more likely to, when in custody, face physical and sexual abuse from both police and others who are also in custody. They are more likely to be homeless or in poverty, which exacerbates the likelihood of their being targeted by police and unable to access their legal rights in response due to their lack of capital.

This may come as a shock to you, but black people can be gay or trans. When these individuals are targeted by police, they are more likely to experience discrimination and violence.

Here are some quick sources that you might find enlightening:

https://www.kent.edu/sites/default/files/file/Police_Brutality.pdf
https://d21zrvtkxtd6ae.cloudfront.n...isexual-and-transgender-people-in-the-USA.pdf
 
to end my part in this ill say thank u robyn for ur admission, albeit widely diluted by defensive remarks, of the bigger picture (i do think we have the same beliefs! but im still not happy on what u decided to put the focus on in your goodbye post - 20:1!!!), and thank u for all of the people desperate to drive a wedge between LGBTQ+ and other political issues for shutting up
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
Hello,

hope everyone is well. Hope you all had a great pride month.

I don't really post here, but I feel like reflecting on some things I've kept internalised for a long time.

I figured out my identity a long time ago (8-9 years) and its no secret to people who actually know me on Smogon that I am Bisexual and I'm a Transgender woman.

Every pride month makes me reflect on the same thing, I will never be able to be fully out to a select number of crucial people in my life and that is something ive kept from a lot of my friends here, I always feel like I will never truly be accepted by key individuals in my life due to their beliefs and thats been the case for a very long time. It's been getting to me for years, Im autistic and I don't really have anyone to talk to about how I am feeling and I find it hard to talk about my emotions. I just want to escape it all and truly be the person I want to be and be accepted.

Hope everyone else is having a more successful time in their lives with whatever it may be and doesn't make the same mistakes ive made in my life. Lately I lost a lot of important things in my life and it made me reflect on a lot, especially me as a person. Just really wanted to get this off my mind I guess and vent my grievances.
 

brightobject

there like moonlight
is a Top Artistis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Something that is often overlooked during these debates about intersectionality of blackness and gayness etc. etc. amidst the protests is the deep, long-standing connection between black rights and queer rights. Consider that Marsha P. Johnson and Zazu Nova, two of the most prominent figures leading activist efforts re: the Stonewall Riots, were black GNC people (Johnson ended up founding STAR and playing a part in ACT UP as well). James Baldwin is more known for his work on race but also was active on educating the public about homosexuality and bisexuality through books like Giovanni's Room (which featured an all-white cast, funnily enough). Audre Lorde of course goes without saying. And the list goes on. Queerness and LGBTQ+ rights owe so much of their progress and recognition to the labor of black queer activists who were doubly targeted by the white supremacist hegemony, and refusing to acknowledge their legacy and work effectively whitewashes the struggle for LGBTQ+ liberation in a way that needs interrogation. Corporations trying to use Pride (TM) and white gays complaining about Pride month being cancelled is symptomatic of the same kind of insidious reasoning, as is people talking about queerness as something "apolitical" and trying to "separate" it from BLM. As LGBTQ rights start moving more and more into the "acceptable" (and becomes more and more susceptible to this kind of mainstreaming in the process) it's time (and has been time for a while now) to seriously reckon with the identities/intersections of identities of the people that helped make this kind of present possible (not to say that this present is ideal by any means)--and the work that is needed to unlearn the 'sanitized' queer narrative that has been fed to us. Something to think about!

e: mistakenly id'd marsha and zazu as trans women. Thanks Crux!
 
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Crux

Banned deucer.
While I agree with the general sentiment of this post, there was some discussion upthread about why assigning identities to people who did not claim those identities while alive is incredibly harmful and disrespectful to those people. Neither Marsha P. Johnson nor Zazu Nova identified as trans women, they said as much in interviews while they were alive, and that is continuously confirmed by people who knew them whenever this "black trans woman" narrative is brought up every Pride month.

Here is an interview with Marsha, for instance: https://pastebin.com/U2Ftuy01
 
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While I agree with the general sentiment of this post, there was some discussion upthread about why assigning identities to people who did not claim those identities while alive is incredibly harmful and disrespectful to those people. Neither Martha P. Johnson nor Zazu Nova identified as trans women, they said as much in interviews while they were alive, and that is continuously confirmed by people who knew them whenever this "black trans woman" narrative is brought up every Pride month.

Here is an interview with Martha, for instance: https://pastebin.com/U2Ftuy01
i haven't read this yet but i agree
 

brightobject

there like moonlight
is a Top Artistis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
While I agree with the general sentiment of this post, there was some discussion upthread about why assigning identities to people who did not claim those identities while alive is incredibly harmful and disrespectful to those people. Neither Martha P. Johnson nor Zazu Nova identified as trans women, they said as much in interviews while they were alive, and that is continuously confirmed by people who knew them whenever this "black trans woman" narrative is brought up every Pride month.

Here is an interview with Martha, for instance: https://pastebin.com/U2Ftuy01
Completely valid criticism, that's my own bad. I've corrected my post to say black GNC re: Zazu and Marsha. Thanks for the callout!
 

Fame

you know we're the same
is a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
I'm slightly late to this conversation and I apologise if I'm dragging an old discussion up / rehashing some points already expressed in previous messages accidentally but nonetheless:

I really hate the way that a lot of LGBTQ+ people will often attempt to divert political issues which seemingly do not impact them to other spaces. To try and separate queerness from current conversations around police discrimination is first and foremost ignorant, but also seems to be an easy way for a lot of people to absolve themselves of their responsibility in situations like this - because many people seem to think as though their queerness is not inherently political, thus they shouldn't need to be involved in these conversations.

Even if the current mainstream conversation is largely centred around the racial discrimination in which the police continue to perpetuate rather than sexual/gender based discrimination, doesn't mean that we should be diverting these conversations to other spaces. It's important to keep in mind that we have queer black people in our community who will face BOTH racial and sexual/gender based discrimination from the police - and actively trying to dismiss and divert these important conversations around corruption in LGBTQ+ spaces because you deem them as "non-queer issues" shows a huge lack of regard for those people who will face said corruption in your community.

To separate the Stonewall riots and queerness from police reform/abolishment is...nonsensical to say the least. It was a very clear example of how the police force perpetuates bigotry and discrimination towards queer people. To abolish the police force is also to abolish police discrimination against all marginalised communities - which includes the LGBTQ+.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
I'm slightly late to this conversation and I apologise if I'm dragging an old discussion up / rehashing some points already expressed in previous messages accidentally but nonetheless:

I really hate the way that a lot of LGBTQ+ people will often attempt to divert political issues which seemingly do not impact them to other spaces. To try and separate queerness from current conversations around police discrimination is first and foremost ignorant, but also seems to be an easy way for a lot of people to absolve themselves of their responsibility in situations like this - because many people seem to think as though their queerness is not inherently political, thus they shouldn't need to be involved in these conversations.

Even if the current mainstream conversation is largely centred around the racial discrimination in which the police continue to perpetuate rather than sexual/gender based discrimination, doesn't mean that we should be diverting these conversations to other spaces. It's important to keep in mind that we have queer black people in our community who will face BOTH racial and sexual/gender based discrimination from the police - and actively trying to dismiss and divert these important conversations around corruption in LGBTQ+ spaces because you deem them as "non-queer issues" shows a huge lack of regard for those people who will face said corruption in your community.

To separate the Stonewall riots and queerness from police reform/abolishment is...nonsensical to say the least. It was a very clear example of how the police force perpetuates bigotry and discrimination towards queer people. To abolish the police force is also to abolish police discrimination against all marginalised communities - which includes the LGBTQ+.
To your point:

I am late to this topic and convo, but I wanted to confirm, that you mean you want the police to be effectively removed?

Whatever replaces it will initially be seen as a better enforcement, but it could lead to the same pattern of power vs marginalized communities similar to the human nature to bully and ostracize anything (person, community, belief, etc.) seen as “Abnormal”, where the only way to relieve that group / individual is to demonstrate that they now or always did count as “normal”, or at least “natural” (such as someone going through a traumatic experience and no longer being “normal”, but it is “natural” that they feel nervous / panicked when around said bully... For example PTSD is a “natural” human response and has been accepted as a mental health legitimate condition and concern, rather than dismissed as simply “crazy”).

My advice:

Overall, we do need to be specific on patterns, and not just specific about historical reference points, which people can argue is a “one-off”, I think it would be more helpful to those who do not know our history, to go over patterns that plague a community,

For example, trans people are seen by law enforcement as prostitutes even if they are not, because in the evening the stigma is, “they are looking for a client”, even if they are simply waiting for a light to cross the street (similar to the way women are sometimes accused of being prostitutes, when judged by their attire, City, and time of day). Loitering does not equal prostitution, but to many police, sometimes implicit bias can override giving someone the benefit of the doubt. (There may be cases where certain cities have a high LGBT population, such as the Castro in SF, and so the culprit for those crimes are can be seen that it will more likely be LGBT person, because the LGBT is historically at a lower income rate, and are struggling to survive, but really it’s because that is the primary population of the area itself (more % of LGBT than straight people in that area).

Overall, Stonewall was an incident that became a historical reference point.

When we look at continuing patterns, we can acknowledge these problems are systemic, and persistent, rather than a one-off example.

I know your points were in agreement that the LGBT+ community is historically victimized, but I think it will be more effective to highlight how it continues, and where that stems from, such as the Trans / drag community becoming stereotyped as prostitutes, when they are out, or viewed as “dressed proactively” in the evening.

A dress is not an invitation, it is part of an outfit.
 
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Fame

you know we're the same
is a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
My original post was moreso a response to the diversion of current discourse regarding the police from this thread, as many were seemingly ignorant to the fact that police brutality (and general police reform / abolition) is very much so a queer issue, just as it is a racial one.

To answer your question though, yes, I am for the abolition of the police force.

Whatever replaces it will initially be seen as a better enforcement, but it could lead to the same pattern of power vs marginalized communities similar to the human nature to bully and ostracize anything (person, community, belief, etc.)
From what I'm understanding, your point is that there is always going to be a power imbalance that can lead to abuse (more specifically marginalisation of specific communities) in situations where one group of people are responsible for the consequences of another, thus you do not think police abolition would be effective or question it at the very least.

For starters, police abolition is a super complex topic to talk about. Abolitionists recognise that the criminal justice system as a whole is actually hugely corrupt and oppressive towards everybody. Apologies if I don't have all the correct things to say on this topic.

I feel as though your points aren't super relevant to the alternatives that have been offered up by abolitionists, because you're failing to realise that the ostracisation and oppression you speak of is a direct result of the insane amount of power within the criminal justice system. Nowhere near the amount of power that the current CJS holds would be occupying new systems/alternatives offered up by abolitionists. The intent of these systems would also be completely different.

There is a huge power imbalance between the current police force and the average person (even bigger when said person is apart of a marginalised community). When we evaluate this "power" that the current police force holds over the average person - the abuse of said power is life threatening, as we've seen in recent events and throughout history. The current ostracisation and "bullying" carried out by the police (and the overall CJS) is actually ruining lives and putting them in danger. This also applies to people who ARE offenders and are already incarcerated. I'd also like to make the point that it is undeniable that the US criminal justice system has much larger of a focus on punishment rather than it does on rehabilitation (as seen by recidivism rates). This culture in which we aim to punish rather than to reform is proof in and of itself that the CJS is cruel and corrupt. This is all a huge critique of the current system we have, and there's so much more at play than just the police when we talk about the system being oppressive.

For me personally, when I look at the alternatives to policing (and also incarceration) that have been offered up, such as unarmed intervention teams or utilising/funding mental health centres, restorative justice plans, supervised releases etc etc...the power imbalance is nowhere near as huge and these alternatives place much bigger focus on reformation rather than punishment. These are not systems that are intended to be weaponised against society. Even in the instances that you talk about, with your example of people with PTSD not being seen as "normal" - "new things" to society or abnormalities would be approached in a completely different way than in a system that focuses on punishment.

I know your points were in agreement that the LGBT+ community is historically victimized, but I think it will be more effective to highlight how it continues, and where that stems from, such as the Trans / drag community becoming stereotyped as prostitutes, when they are out, or viewed as “dressed proactively” in the evening.
Marginalisation of communities will never come to an end as a result of analysing stereotypes or analysing patterns - otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Stereotypes, statistics, "patterns" etc have all been debunked and analysed online for like a decade now. I'm seriously confused as to what you think this will achieve. Anyone with internet access can do this for themselves - the problem is that people don't care, and that includes the police force. We especially shouldn't be being policed by people who are wilfully taking action on the basis of a stigma that takes maybe 30 seconds to debunk via Google search.
 
This is my first post here, and i really don't have much to contribute to any of the discussions that have been made so far; but i just wanted to say, im happy to have found a community that appears to welcome LGBTQ+ so warmly.

Especially as a gaming community, it's very rare to find. Im looking forward to meeting more people on here.
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
Not really sure what boundaries of this thread are, but I feel like I need to try reach out at least.

Lately I feel very lonely and isolated due to having no like-minded people to talk to in my life anymore. It’s getting me very down, feeling like you’re on your own in everything sucks, even if most of is my own doings that contributed to it. I want to make positive changes for me and everyone around me.

Going through issues is hard, especially when you have to face them alone, I feel rather anxious writing this post, I want to try to make friends with people who understand lgbt issues / experiences - preferably trans / dysphoria etc. Even if youre an ally and just want to be friends thats cool too. Im in my mid 20s and it feels like little people to talk to nowadays. I’m autistic I find social interactions hard and writing a post like this feels rather difficult but it feels like I have nowhere else to go.

My discord ID is Sarah#5431 if you wish to add me and chat, hopefully we can find interests and help eachother with our experiences in LGBT issues and the like.

I’ll be going to bed now its 4am writing this , goodnight
 

p0ip0le

it's a billion lions
recently moved from singapore to the states and idk what happened but im finally getting consistently correctly gendered by strangers which is a nice feeling. i havent even done anything noticeable to my appearance

i ALSO did some digging and found that the school im going to has a GSA so i can finally get recognition for running my old school's GSA and someone who lives 5 min down the road had a gay flag hanging on one of the trees so :eyes:

the downside is that theres no open haircut place nearby and i look like a mushroom
 
Two years ago, I met a boy, his name is Tulio and he is Colombian, we have been talking a lot on Discord since before he will play Pokemon, he is my closest friend and with whom I have the most confidence, I tell him about my personal life and like shit. We saw each other's faces, and even several times we make video calls playing and debating, I had never felt attraction to a person of the same sex (in fact, before meeting him, he was very homophobic with gays). The problem I have is how to openly tell him my feelings towards him without losing friendship, the truth would hurt me very much to lose his contact. At least I already spoke openly to my parents about my sexual orientation and they accepted me as I am, and that despite the path I choose, they will always support me.
PD: Sorry for my English, but I hope it is understood as well as possible.
 

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