NU Lilligant

[watashi]

Overview
########

Lilligant is a potent sweeper in NU due to its good Special Attack and its access to one of the best boosting moves, Quiver Dance. Additionally, it can utilize Sleep Powder to neutralize its counters. However, Lilligant suffers from a poor offensive typing and movepool, and is forced to use the weak Hidden Power for coverage. It faces stiff competition with the many other Grass-types in the tier for a slot in the team, such as Sceptile, Ferroseed, and Vileplume. Despite these flaws, Lilligant is a huge threat that can easily pull off sweeps with the right support.

Quiver Dance
########
name: Quiver Dance
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sleep Powder
ability: Own Tempo
item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Quiver Dance is the most important move on this set as it boosts Lilligant's Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed stats. Giga Drain is the preferred STAB move for its reliability and healing, which works well with the added bulk provided by Quiver Dance. The coverage move depends on the types of Pokemon one wants to target with Lilligant. Hidden Power Ice hits the Grass-, Dragon-, and Flying-types which resist Giga Drain. Hidden Power Fire also hits Grass-types, but forgoes coverage on Dragon- and Flying-types to hit Steel- and Bug-types. Hidden Power Rock is also an option to hit Magmortar, but the inability to hurt Grass-types is undesirable as they have an immunity to Sleep Powder. The last moveslot is dedicated to Sleep Powder, which can disable the opponent for a few turns. However, one should remember not to use it on Grass-types or Pokemon with Vital Spirit or Insomnia, as they are immune to it.

Set Details
========

252 EVs in Special Attack and Speed are used to maximize Lilligant's offensive prowess. A Timid nature is needed to outpace threats such as positive natured Sawk and Mesprit before a boost, and to Speed tie with Pokemon such as Kangaskhan and Zangoose, if using Hidden Power Ice. Lum Berry allows Lilligant to avoid status from Pokemon such as Lanturn, Regirock, Rotom, and Uxie, all of which are targets that Lilligant might set up on. Life Orb is an option to hit harder, but is less useful than Lum Berry in most scenarios. Own Tempo helps Lilligant to avoid confusion from Golurk's Dynamic Punch and Chatot's Chatter. Chlorophyll can be used to perform better against Sunny Day teams; however Lilligant generally should not be used such teams.


Usage Tips
========

Due to the low Base Power of Lilligant's attacks, it generally needs to accumulate two Quiver Dances to have a chance at sweeping a healthy team. Likewise, Lilligant also needs two Quiver Dances to outrun common Choice Scarf users such as Typhlosion, Pyroar, and Rotom, although the latter cannot do significant damage back. Sleep Powder can aid one in accomplishing this goal, but should be used with caution because of its unreliable accuracy. In cases where Lilligant cannot sweep immediately, one should try to predict the counter that might switch in and put it to sleep.

Team Options
========

Lilligant appreciates entry hazard support from the likes of Qwilfish and Crustle, as it helps to wear down bulky Pokemon such as Ferroseed, Vileplume, and Dragalge. Teammates that can take attacks from offensive Fire-types and Bouffalant are helpful, as they will usually force Lilligant out. Other sweepers that can take advantage of Pokemon such as Vileplume and Dragalge being weakened or removed, such as Feraligatr or Gurdurr, make for good partners, as Lilligant can weaken them until they can no longer wall anything else.

Other Options
########

Petal Dance seems tempting in conjunction with Own Tempo to avoid the self-induced confusion, but will still lock you in for a few turns and is therefore unviable, as Lilligant would be walled by the many bulky Pokemon that resist Grass-type moves in the tier. A Choice Scarf set with Sleep Powder, Leaf Storm, Hidden Powder coverage, and Healing Wish can provide great utility for a team, but is too easily walled by Lilligant's usual counters to be effective. Yache Berry is viable to take various Ice-type moves such as Feraligatr's Ice Punch and Cryogonal's Ice Beam, but its use is limited only to a few scenarios.

Checks & Counters
########

**Sap Sipper**: Bouffalant and Miltank with Sap Sipper counter all of Lilligant's sets, as they take negligible damage from Hidden Power.

**Poison-types**: Muk, Garbodor, and Clear Smog Weezing can take any attack from Lilligant other than Sleep Powder. Dragalge can force Lilligant out with Dragon Tail or KO it with a Choice Specs boosted Sludge Bomb, but does not enjoy taking Hidden Power Ice.

**Fire-types**: Choice Scarf Typhlosion and Pyroar outspeed Lilligant even after Quiver Dance and can revenge kill it with Fire Blast, but must watch out for Sleep Powder when switching in. Magmortar is unaffected by Sleep Powder, but must watch out for a boosted Hidden Power Rock.

**Flying-types**: Both Xatu and Vullaby are immune to Sleep Powder and take little damage from Giga Drain. However, they have to beware of Hidden Power Rock and Hidden Power Ice.

**Grass-types**: Grass-types such as Ferroseed and Vileplume do not enjoy taking a super effective Hidden Power, but completely shut down Lilligant otherwise.

 

[HJAD]

Chlorophyll over own tempo? Especially with weather becoming more prominent, chlorophyll can be useful against sun teams as apposed to own tempo which only really saves you from the noobs on the ladder. Stacks with HP fire which can "counter sweep" sun teams ore at least mess with them thanks to sleep powder. I know you mentioned it in OO but maybe its good enough to be used on the actual set (?) Its for you to decide

 

[soulgazer]

qc 1/3 FLCL

and I guess chlorophyll in set details as it can come in handy if your team is weak against sun teams

 

[Blast]

Yache Berry in OO for random Ice coverage on Gatr and stuff

QC 2/3 FLCL

 

[Raseri]

3/3

 

[frenzyplant]

amcheck :)

Hide

add remove (comments)

Overview
########

Lilligant is a potent sweeper in NU due to its good Special Attack and access to one of the best boosting moves in Quiver Dance. Additionally, It can also utilize Sleep Powder to neutralize potential counters. However, Lilligant suffers from a poor offensive typing and movepool, and it is forced to use the weak Hidden Power as coverage. It faces stiff competition for a teamslot with the many other Grass-types in the tier, such as Sceptile, Ferroseed, and Vileplume. Despite these flaws, Lilligant is a huge threat in NU that can easily pull off sweeps with the right support.

Quiver Dance
########
name: Quiver Dance
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sleep Powder
ability: Own Tempo
item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Quiver Dance is the most important move on this set, boostsing your Lilligant's Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed stats. Giga Drain is the preferred STAB move for its reliability and healing, which works well with the bulk provided by Quiver Dance. The coverage move depends on what types of Pokemon one wants to target with Lilligant. Hidden Power Ice hits the Grass-, Dragon-, and Flying-types which resist Giga Drain. Hidden Power Fire also hits Grass-types, (remove comma) but forgoes coverage on Dragon- and Flying-types to hit Steel- and Bug-types. Hidden Power Rock is also an option, but Lilligant does not like to be walled by Grass-types since it can't put those to sleep like it can with the checks that resist Hidden Power Ice and Hidden Power Fire, except for Magmortar. The last moveslot is dedicated to Sleep Powder, which can disable the opponent for a few turns. However, one should watch out for Grass-types or and Pokemon with the abilityies Vital Spirit or Insomnia when using it.

Set Details
========

252 EVs in Special Attack and Speed to maximize Lilligant's offensive capabilities prowess. A Timid nature is needed to outpace threats such as positively natured Sawk and Mesprit (if positively natured Sawk and positively natured Mesprit, change to such and specify the natures to avoid wordiness; if positively natured Sawk and neutral natured Mesprit, change to "Mesprit and positively natured Sawk") before a boost, and speed tie (remove dash) with Pokemon such as Kangaskhan and Zangoose, (remove comma) if using Hidden Power Ice. Lum Berry allows Lilligant to avoid status from Pokemon such as Lanturn, Regirock, Rotom, and Uxie, all of which are targets it might try to set up on. Life Orb is an option to hit harder, but it is less reliable than Lum Berry in most scenarios. Own Tempo helps avoid confusion from Golurk's Dynamic Punch and Chatot's confusion from Golurk, and Chatter confusion from Chatot. However, Chlorophyll can be used to perform better versus against Sunny Day teams, although it is not recommended that you used Lilligant on said that type of teams.


Usage Tips
========

Due to the low Base Power of Lilligant's attacks, it generally needs to accumulate two Quiver Dance boosts to have a chance at sweeping a healthy team. Likewise, Lilligant also needs two Quiver Dances to outrun common Choice Scarf Pokemon such as Typhlosion, Pyroar, and Rotom, although the latter last cannot do significant damage back. Sleep Powder can help one Lilligant to accomplish this goal, (remove comma) but should be used sparingly as its accuracy is unreliable. In cases where Lilligant cannot sweep immediately, one should try to predict a switch-in the counter switching in and put it to sleep.

Team Options
========

Lilligant appreciates entry hazard support from the likes of Qwilfish and Crustle, as it helps wear down Pokemon such as Ferroseed, Vileplume, and Dragalge. Teammates that can take attacks from offensive Fire-types and Bouffalant are helpful, as they will usually force Lilligant to switch out. Other sweepers that can take advantage of Pokemon such as Vileplume and Dragalge being weakened or removed, such as Feraligatr or and Gurdurr, (comma) make good partners, as Lilligant can usually weaken its counters those Pokemon to the point where they can no longer wall anything else.

Other Options
########

Petal Dance seems tempting in conjuction with Own Tempo to avoid the self-induced confusion, but it still locks you in for a few turns and therefore is unviable as there are too many bulky Grass-type resistances in the tier. A Choice Scarf set with Sleep Powder, Leaf Storm, Hidden Power coverage, and Healing Wish can provide many forms of utility for a team. However, it but is too easily walled by Lilligant's usual counters to be effective. Yache Berry is viable to take various Ice-type moves such as Ice Punch from Feraligatr's Ice Punch or and Cryogonal's Ice Beam, but its use is limited to only a few scenarios.

Checks & Counters
########

**Sap Sipper**: Bouffalant and Miltank with Sap Sipper counter all sets as they take pitiful damage from Hidden Power.

**Poison-types**: Muk, Garbodor, and Clear Smog Weezing don't mind any attack from Lilligant other than Sleep Powder. Dragalge can force Lilligant out Lilligant with Dragon Tail or kill KO it with a Choice Specs-boosted (dash) Sludge Bomb, but it does not enjoy taking Hidden Power Ice.

**Fire-types**: Choice Scarf Typhlosion and Choice Scarf Pyroar outspeed Lilligant after one Quiver Dance and can revenge kill it with Fire Blast, but they must watch out for Sleep Powder when switching in. Magmortar doesn't care about Sleep Powder, but it must watch out for a boosted Hidden Power Rock.

**Flying-types**: Both Xatu and Vullaby are immune to Sleep Powder and take little damage from Giga Drain. However, they have to beware of Hidden Power Rock or and Hidden Power Ice.

**Grass-types**: Ferroseed and Vileplume do not enjoy taking a super effective Hidden Power, but they will completely shut down Lilligant otherwise.

 

[Metal Sonic]

amcheck x2 x__x

blue = addition
red = deletion

Hide

Overview
########

Lilligant is a potent sweeper in NU due to its good Special Attack and its access to one of the best boosting moves in Quiver Dance. Additionally, it can utilize Sleep Powder to neutralize its potential counters. However, Lilligant suffers from a poor offensive typing and movepool, and is forced to use the weak Hidden Power asfor coverage. It faces stiff competition for a teamslot with the many other Grass-types in the tier, such as for a slot in the team, including Sceptile, Ferroseed, and Vileplume. Despite these flaws, Lilligant is a huge threat in NU that can easily pull off sweeps with the right support.

Quiver Dance
########
name: Quiver Dance
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sleep Powder
ability: Own Tempo
item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Quiver Dance is the most important move on this set as it boosts your Lilligant's Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed stats simultaneously. Giga Drain is the preferred stabSTAB move for its reliability and healing, which works well with the added bulk provided by Quiver Dance. The coverage move depends on whatthe types of Pokemon one wants to target with Lilligant. Hidden Power Ice hits the Grass-, Dragon-, and Flying-types which resist Giga Drain. Hidden Power Fire also hits Grass-types, but forgoes coverage on Dragon- and Flying-types to hit Steel- and Bug-types. Hidden Power Rock is also an option to hit Magmortar, but the inability to hurt Grass-types is undesirable as they have an immunity to Sleep Powder. The last moveslot is dedicated to Sleep Powder, which can disable the opponent for a few turns. However, one should watch out forremember not to use it on Grass-types or Pokemon with the abilities Vital Spirit or Insomnia when using it.

Set Details
========

252 EVs in Special Attack and Speed are to maximize Lilligant's offensive prowess. A Timid nature is needed to outpace threats such as positive natured Sawk and Mesprit before a boost, and to speed-tie with Pokemon such as Kangaskhan and Zangoose, if using Hidden Power Ice. Lum Berry allows Lilligant to avoid status from Pokemon such as Lanturn, Regirock, Rotom, and Uxie, all of which are targets that Lilligant might try to set up on. Life Orb is an option to hit harder, but is less reliable than Lum Berry in most scenarios. Own Tempo helps avoid Dynamic PunchLilligant to avoid confusion from Golurk,'s Dynamic Punch and Chatot's Chatter. However, Chlorophyll can be used to perform better versusagainst Sunny Day teams, although Lilligant is not recommended to be used Lilligant on such said type of teams.


Usage Tips
========

Due to the low base power of Lilligant's attacks, it generally needs to accumulate two Quiver Dances to have a chance at sweeping a healthy team. Likewise, Lilligant also needs two Quiver Dances to outrun common Choice Scarf Pokemon such as Typhlosion, Pyroar, and Rotom, although the latter cannot do significant damage back. Sleep Powder can helpaid one in accomplishing this goal, but should be used sparingly as its accuracywith caution because of its unreliable accuracy. In cases where Lilligant cannot sweep immediately, one should try to predict the counter that might switching in and put it to sleep.

Team Options
========

Lilligant appreciates entry hazard support from the likes of Qwilfish and Crustle, as it helps wear down Pokemon such as Ferroseed, Vileplume, and Dragalge. Teammates that can take attacks from offensive Fire-types and Bouffalant are helpful, as they will usually force Lilligant to switch out. Other sweepers that can take advantage of Pokemon such as Vileplume and Dragalge being weakened or removed, such as Feraligatr or Gurdurr, make good partners, as Lilligant can usually weaken them untilits counters to the point where they can no longer wall anything else.

Other Options
########

Petal Dance seems tempting in conjunction with Own Tempo to avoid the self-induced confusion, but itwill still locks you in for a few turns and is therefore is unviable,(add comma) as there are tooLilligant would be walled by the many bulky Grass-type resistances in the tier. A Choice Scarf set with Sleep Powder, Leaf Storm, Hidden Powder coverage, and Healing Wish can provide many forms ofgreat utility for a team. However, it but is too easily walled by Lilligant's usual counters to be effective. Yache Berry is viable to take various Ice-type moves such as Ice Punch from Feraligatr's Ice Punch or Cryogonal's Ice Beam, but its use is limited to only to a few scenarios.

Checks & Counters
########

**Sap Sipper**: Bouffalant and Miltank with Sap Sipper counter all sets,(add comma) as they take pitiful damage from Hidden Power.

**Poison-types**: Muk, Garbodor, and Clear Smog Weezing don't mindcan take any attack from Lilligant other than Sleep Powder. Dragalge can force out Lilligant out with Dragon Tail or kill it with a Choice Specs boosted Sludge Bomb, but does not enjoy taking Hidden Power Ice.

**Fire-types**: Choice Scarf Typhlosion and Pyroar outspeed Lilligant after Quiver Dance and can revenge kill with Fire Blast, but must watch out for Sleep Powder when switching in. Magmortar doesn't care aboutis unaffected by Sleep Powder, but must watch out for a boosted Hidden Power Rock.

**Flying-types**: Both Xatu and Vullaby are immune to Sleep Powder and take little damage from Giga Drain. However, they have to beware of Hidden Power Rock or Ice.

**Grass-types**: Ferroseed and Vileplume do not enjoy taking a super effective Hidden Power, but will completely shut down Lilligant otherwise.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

amcheck x2 x__x

blue = addition
red = deletion

Hide

Overview
########

Lilligant is a potent sweeper in NU due to its good Special Attack and its access to one of the best boosting moves in Quiver Dance. Additionally, it can utilize Sleep Powder to neutralize its potential counters. However, Lilligant suffers from a poor offensive typing and movepool, and is forced to use the weak Hidden Power asfor coverage. It faces stiff competition for a teamslot with the many other Grass-types in the tier, such as for a slot in the team, including Sceptile, Ferroseed, and Vileplume. Despite these flaws, Lilligant is a huge threat in NU that can easily pull off sweeps with the right support.

Quiver Dance
########
name: Quiver Dance
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sleep Powder
ability: Own Tempo
item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Quiver Dance is the most important move on this set as it boosts your Lilligant's Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed stats simultaneously. Giga Drain is the preferred stabSTAB move for its reliability and healing, which works well with the added bulk provided by Quiver Dance. The coverage move depends on whatthe types of Pokemon one wants to target with Lilligant. Hidden Power Ice hits the Grass-, Dragon-, and Flying-types which resist Giga Drain. Hidden Power Fire also hits Grass-types, but forgoes coverage on Dragon- and Flying-types to hit Steel- and Bug-types. Hidden Power Rock is also an option to hit Magmortar, but the inability to hurt Grass-types is undesirable as they have an immunity to Sleep Powder. The last moveslot is dedicated to Sleep Powder, which can disable the opponent for a few turns. However, one should watch out forremember not to use it on Grass-types or Pokemon with the abilities Vital Spirit or Insomnia when using it.

Set Details
========

252 EVs in Special Attack and Speed are to maximize Lilligant's offensive prowess. A Timid nature is needed to outpace threats such as positive natured Sawk and Mesprit before a boost, and to speed-tie with Pokemon such as Kangaskhan and Zangoose, if using Hidden Power Ice. Lum Berry allows Lilligant to avoid status from Pokemon such as Lanturn, Regirock, Rotom, and Uxie, all of which are targets that Lilligant might try to set up on. Life Orb is an option to hit harder, but is less reliable than Lum Berry in most scenarios. Own Tempo helps avoid Dynamic PunchLilligant to avoid confusion from Golurk,'s Dynamic Punch and Chatot's Chatter. However, Chlorophyll can be used to perform better versusagainst Sunny Day teams, although Lilligant is not recommended to be used Lilligant on such said type of teams.


Usage Tips
========

Due to the low base power of Lilligant's attacks, it generally needs to accumulate two Quiver Dances to have a chance at sweeping a healthy team. Likewise, Lilligant also needs two Quiver Dances to outrun common Choice Scarf Pokemon such as Typhlosion, Pyroar, and Rotom, although the latter cannot do significant damage back. Sleep Powder can helpaid one in accomplishing this goal, but should be used sparingly as its accuracywith caution because of its unreliable accuracy. In cases where Lilligant cannot sweep immediately, one should try to predict the counter that might switching in and put it to sleep.

Team Options
========

Lilligant appreciates entry hazard support from the likes of Qwilfish and Crustle, as it helps wear down Pokemon such as Ferroseed, Vileplume, and Dragalge. Teammates that can take attacks from offensive Fire-types and Bouffalant are helpful, as they will usually force Lilligant to switch out. Other sweepers that can take advantage of Pokemon such as Vileplume and Dragalge being weakened or removed, such as Feraligatr or Gurdurr, make good partners, as Lilligant can usually weaken them untilits counters to the point where they can no longer wall anything else.

Other Options
########

Petal Dance seems tempting in conjunction with Own Tempo to avoid the self-induced confusion, but itwill still locks you in for a few turns and is therefore is unviable,(add comma) as there are tooLilligant would be walled by the many bulky Grass-type resistances in the tier. A Choice Scarf set with Sleep Powder, Leaf Storm, Hidden Powder coverage, and Healing Wish can provide many forms ofgreat utility for a team. However, it but is too easily walled by Lilligant's usual counters to be effective. Yache Berry is viable to take various Ice-type moves such as Ice Punch from Feraligatr's Ice Punch or Cryogonal's Ice Beam, but its use is limited to only to a few scenarios.

Checks & Counters
########

**Sap Sipper**: Bouffalant and Miltank with Sap Sipper counter all sets,(add comma) as they take pitiful damage from Hidden Power.

**Poison-types**: Muk, Garbodor, and Clear Smog Weezing don't mindcan take any attack from Lilligant other than Sleep Powder. Dragalge can force out Lilligant out with Dragon Tail or kill it with a Choice Specs boosted Sludge Bomb, but does not enjoy taking Hidden Power Ice.

**Fire-types**: Choice Scarf Typhlosion and Pyroar outspeed Lilligant after Quiver Dance and can revenge kill with Fire Blast, but must watch out for Sleep Powder when switching in. Magmortar doesn't care aboutis unaffected by Sleep Powder, but must watch out for a boosted Hidden Power Rock.

**Flying-types**: Both Xatu and Vullaby are immune to Sleep Powder and take little damage from Giga Drain. However, they have to beware of Hidden Power Rock or Ice.

**Grass-types**: Ferroseed and Vileplume do not enjoy taking a super effective Hidden Power, but will completely shut down Lilligant otherwise.

I went over this with Metal Sonic over IRC. This check is solid; please implement it. :)

GP 1/2

 

[fleurdyleurse]

hi

check

Overview
########

Lilligant is a potent sweeper in NU due to its good Special Attack and its access to one of the best boosting moves in, Quiver Dance. Additionally, it can utilize Sleep Powder to neutralize its potential counters. However, Lilligant suffers from a poor offensive typing and movepool, and is forced to use the weak Hidden Power for coverage. It faces stiff competition with the many other Grass-types in the tier for a slot in the team, includingsuch as Sceptile, Ferroseed, and Vileplume. Despite these flaws, Lilligant is a huge threat that can easily pull off sweeps with the right support.

Quiver Dance
########
name: Quiver Dance
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sleep Powder
ability: Own Tempo
item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Quiver Dance is the most important move on this set, as it boosts Lilligant's Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed stats simutaneously. Giga Drain is the preferred STAB move for its reliability and healing, which works well with the added bulk provided by Quiver Dance. The coverage move depends on the types of Pokemon one wants to target with Lilligant. Hidden Power Ice hits the Grass-, Dragon-, and Flying-types which resist Giga Drain. Hidden Power Fire also hits Grass-types, but forgoes coverage on Dragon- and Flying-types to hit Steel- and Bug-types. Hidden Power Rock is also an option to hit Magmortar, but the inability to hurt Grass-types is undesirable, as they have an immunity to Sleep Powder. The last moveslot is dedicated to Sleep Powder, which can disable the opponent for a few turns. However, one should remember not to use it on Grass-types or Pokemon with Vital Spirit or Insomnia, as they are immune to it.

Set Details
========

252 EVs in Special Attack and Speed are used to maximize Lilligant's offensive prowess. A Timid nature is needed to outpace threats such as positive natured Sawk and Mesprit before a boost, and to sSpeed- tie with Pokemon such as Kangaskhan and Zangoose, if using Hidden Power Ice. Lum Berry allows Lilligant to avoid status from Pokemon such as Lanturn, Regirock, Rotom, and Uxie, all of which are targets that Lilligant might set up on. Life Orb is an option to hit harder, but is less reliableuseful than Lum Berry in most scenarios. Own Tempo helps Lilligant to avoid confusion from Golurk's Dynamic Punch and Chatot's Chatter. However, Chlorophyll can be used to perform better against Sunny Day teams, although; however, Lilligant ishould not recommended to be used on such teams.


Usage Tips
========

Due to the low bBase pPower of Lilligant's attacks, it generally needs to accumulate two Quiver Dances to have a chance at sweeping a healthy team. Likewise, Lilligant also needs two Quiver Dances to outrun common Choice Scarf Pokemonusers such as Typhlosion, Pyroar, and Rotom, although the latter cannot do significant damage back. Sleep Powder can aid one in accomplishing this goal, but should be used with caution because of its unreliable accuracy. In cases where Lilligant cannot sweep immediately, one should try to predict the counter that might switch in and put it to sleep.

Team Options
========

Lilligant appreciates entry hazard support from the likes of Qwilfish and Crustle, as it helps to wear down bulky Pokemon such as Ferroseed, Vileplume, and Dragalge. Teammates that can take attacks from offensive Fire-types and Bouffalant are helpful, as they will usually force Lilligant out. Other sweepers that can take advantage of Pokemon such as Vileplume and Dragalge being weakened or removed, such as Feraligatr or Gurdurr, make for good partners, as Lilligant can weaken thenm until they can no longer wall anything else.

Other Options
########

Petal Dance seems tempting in conjunction with Own Tempo to avoid the self-induced confusion, but will still lock you in for a few turns and is therefore unviable, as Lilligant would be walled by the many bulky Pokemon that resist Grass-type resistmoves in the tier. A Choice Scarf set with Sleep Powder, Leaf Storm, Hidden Powder coverage, and Healing Wish can provide great utility for a team, but is too easily walled by Lilligant's usual counters to be effective. Yache Berry is viable to take various Ice-type moves such as Feraligatr's Ice Punch orand Cryogonal's Ice Beam, but its use is limited only to a few scenarios.

Checks & Counters
########

**Sap Sipper**: Bouffalant and Miltank with Sap Sipper counter all of Lilligant's sets, as they take pitifulnegligible damage from Hidden Power.

**Poison-types**: Muk, Garbodor, and Clear Smog Weezing can take any attack from Lilligant other than Sleep Powder. Dragalge can force Lilligant out with Dragon Tail or killKO it with a Choice Specs boosted Sludge Bomb, but does not enjoy taking Hidden Power Ice.

**Fire-types**: Choice Scarf Typhlosion and Pyroar outspeed Lilligant even after Quiver Dance and can revenge kill it with Fire Blast, but must watch out for Sleep Powder when switching in. Magmortar is unaffected by Sleep Powder, but must watch out for a boosted Hidden Power Rock.

**Flying-types**: Both Xatu and Vullaby are immune to Sleep Powder and take little damage from Giga Drain. However, they have to beware of Hidden Power Rock and Hidden Power Ice.

**Grass-types**: Grass-types such as Ferroseed and Vileplume do not enjoy taking a super effective Hidden Power, but will completely shut down Lilligant otherwise.

GP 2/2

 

[tehy]

yo, not a big fan of the checks and counters here

Checks & Counters
########

**Sap Sipper**: Bouffalant and Miltank with Sap Sipper counter all sets, as they take pitiful damage from Hidden Power.

**Poison-types**: Muk, Garbodor, and Clear Smog Weezing can take any attack from Lilligant other than Sleep Powder. Dragalge can force Lilligant out with Dragon Tail or kill it with a Choice Specs boosted Sludge Bomb, but does not enjoy taking Hidden Power Ice.

For the first two, i suppose i'm just a stickler for saying "And they can kill it". Also, can those Poison-types beat Lilligant even if they're hit by Sleep Powder? And I think Weezing in general can take any attack, though I guess it can only take off about 75% of lilli's life with a medium roll on Sludge Bomb(and 2 LO rolls).


**Fire-types**: Choice Scarf Typhlosion and Pyroar outspeed Lilligant after Quiver Dance and can revenge kill with Fire Blast, but must watch out for Sleep Powder when switching in. Magmortar is unaffected by Sleep Powder, but must watch out for a boosted Hidden Power Rock.

Also, the Specs versions of the first two mons can take any one hit and KO lilligant. This is pretty relevant if it's used Sleep Powder to set up, which does happen fairly often. Also Typh and Pyroar can take any attack on the switch-in besides HP rock.

**Flying-types**: Both Xatu and Vullaby are immune to Sleep Powder and take little damage from Giga Drain. However, they have to beware of Hidden Power Rock or Ice.

What does Xatu do back, though? And i mean this not in the technical sense;it's not clear if Xatu will come out on top of this matchup if Lilli qds as it comes in. Also, how about the rest of the flying-types in the NU metagame? Not to be rude, but there are quite a few others that are relevant and I don't feel they've been mentioned. These two are definitely the best against Lilligant, fine, but there are others.

**Grass-types**: Ferroseed and Vileplume do not enjoy taking a super effective Hidden Power, but will completely shut down Lilligant otherwise.

These two are in totally different situations versus Lilligant. Ferroseed rarely takes an HP fire but dies if it does, so it's a situational counter (and REALLY doesn't enjoy taking an HP Fire.) While Vileplume, bar HP rock, is getting hit with an SE hidden power no matter what, so apparently it can take one no matter what? These two aren't on the same level at all. Also, if it has sludge bomb, it isn't necessarily going to win (Defensive cant KO after 2 LO rolls, though it usually does with rocks;offensive just dies). if it has clear smog, it'll stop lilligant, but then die (unless it switches, in which case lilli might QD again.) Well, unless it's Specially defensive;then some of this stops mattering (though not all of it)


Anyhow, the last 2 times I posted you kind of ignored it. That's kind of annoying, considering that I actually have legitimate points. If you disagree with something, feel free to post in disagreement, at least just to say "I disagree and don't want to argue". I would really appreciate a stronger debate of these points, but outright ignoring me is just kind of a dick move.

 

[Ares]

I think its more the fact that you are replying after there are 5 peoples checks and the analysis is pretty much being uploaded, and then a lot of things are either small or irrelevant. And the small things Raseri fixes before uploading because he reads it over before uploading.

yo, not a big fan of the checks and counters here

Checks & Counters
########

**Sap Sipper**: Bouffalant and Miltank with Sap Sipper counter all sets, as they take pitiful damage from Hidden Power.

**Poison-types**: Muk, Garbodor, and Clear Smog Weezing can take any attack from Lilligant other than Sleep Powder. Dragalge can force Lilligant out with Dragon Tail or kill it with a Choice Specs boosted Sludge Bomb, but does not enjoy taking Hidden Power Ice.

For the first two, i suppose i'm just a stickler for saying "And they can kill it". Also, can those Poison-types beat Lilligant even if they're hit by Sleep Powder? And I think Weezing in general can take any attack, though I guess it can only take off about 75% of lilli's life with a medium roll on Sludge Bomb(and 2 LO rolls).

Umm I dont know what you are trying to get at here, it all really depends on sleep turns which is something random. And Weezing in general can take any hit which is why its in the C&C section...

**Fire-types**: Choice Scarf Typhlosion and Pyroar outspeed Lilligant after Quiver Dance and can revenge kill with Fire Blast, but must watch out for Sleep Powder when switching in. Magmortar is unaffected by Sleep Powder, but must watch out for a boosted Hidden Power Rock.

Also, the Specs versions of the first two mons can take any one hit and KO lilligant. This is pretty relevant if it's used Sleep Powder to set up, which does happen fairly often. Also Typh and Pyroar can take any attack on the switch-in besides HP rock.

HP rock kills any of these fire types after a boost so unless they are scarfed like it says they can not stop lilli.

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pyroar: 351-413 (112.1 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 283-335 (95.2 - 112.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmortar: 263-309 (90 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

**Flying-types**: Both Xatu and Vullaby are immune to Sleep Powder and take little damage from Giga Drain. However, they have to beware of Hidden Power Rock or Ice.

What does Xatu do back, though? And i mean this not in the technical sense;it's not clear if Xatu will come out on top of this matchup if Lilli qds as it comes in. Also, how about the rest of the flying-types in the NU metagame? Not to be rude, but there are quite a few others that are relevant and I don't feel they've been mentioned. These two are definitely the best against Lilligant, fine, but there are others.

Xatu has Heat Wave and can boost along side lilli with Calm Minds and also has Roost, so pretty much Xatu is going to win a battle if it doesnt have the afore mentioned HPs. The rest of the flying-types are implied, you only need to mention a couple of examples so the reader gets a general idea of what they have to watch out for, if you listed every single flying-type then the analysis would just become cluttered with information that is just reiterating the same point.

**Grass-types**: Ferroseed and Vileplume do not enjoy taking a super effective Hidden Power, but will completely shut down Lilligant otherwise.

These two are in totally different situations versus Lilligant. Ferroseed rarely takes an HP fire but dies if it does, so it's a situational counter (and REALLY doesn't enjoy taking an HP Fire.) While Vileplume, bar HP rock, is getting hit with an SE hidden power no matter what, so apparently it can take one no matter what? These two aren't on the same level at all. Also, if it has sludge bomb, it isn't necessarily going to win (Defensive cant KO after 2 LO rolls, though it usually does with rocks;offensive just dies). if it has clear smog, it'll stop lilligant, but then die (unless it switches, in which case lilli might QD again.) Well, unless it's Specially defensive;then some of this stops mattering (though not all of it)

So a situational counter is called a check, hence the section being called Checks&Counters. Ferroseed is actually a really good stop to every set barring the HP Fire as after a +1 Gyro Ball is doing around 70% to lilli. Vileplume is another check to lilli as Sludge Bomb does about 75% after one boost leaving lilli in KO range from priority. While HP Rock variants get 2HKOd, failing to 2HKO Vileplume with HP Rock.

Anyhow, the last 2 times I posted you kind of ignored it. That's kind of annoying, considering that I actually have legitimate points. If you disagree with something, feel free to post in disagreement, at least just to say "I disagree and don't want to argue". I would really appreciate a stronger debate of these points, but outright ignoring me is just kind of a dick move.

Once again if you want to contribute to an analysis waiting until the last second isnt really the best idea. If there is a big issue with something go ahead an comment on it, but with multiple people checking these things, most likely any big issue has already been addressed. Also a lot of these have been sitting here for at least a month giving you plenty of time to address any QC points. And I think people dont wish for there to be a page of arguing back and forth on minute details prolonging the uploading of the analysis.

 

[Raseri]

some Xatu can also Psyshock :)

the addition that Bouff / Miltank can KO Lilligant back is a good one.

FLCL, i'll let you judge whether the bit about Fire-types needs to be added.

Xatu is fine the way it is, maybe expand a bit on how it beats Lilligant. Looking through other Flying-types, they almost all lose!!! Rotom-S can beat HP Fire versions i guess. and Articuno fares decently well, but I don't think either are really worth mentioning.

Grass-type bit looks bad, splitting up ferroseed and vileplume into their own sections of Grass-type situational counters and Grass-type situational checks is a really bad idea

 

[tehy]

I think its more the fact that you are replying after there are 5 peoples checks and the analysis is pretty much being uploaded, and then a lot of things are either small or irrelevant. And the small things Raseri fixes before uploading because he reads it over before uploading.

Sorry for that, i prefer to read over analyses when they're actually written; i'm not sure if mistakes crop up during the writing, or if I just have an easier time seeing them, or something else I don't know about...anyhow, I tend to look at them in the GP stage, also to possibly amcheck them, although I will try to look at written-up analyses in the QC stage. I just don't see many.

Anyhow i'm fairly busy and while I understand my stuff is not always timely, better late than never.

Umm I dont know what you are trying to get at here, it all really depends on sleep turns which is something random. And Weezing in general can take any hit which is why its in the C&C section...

Except he said "clear smog weezing" which is bad writing. What's probably meant is that Clear Smog weezing is the only one that should be taking on Lilligant, but you have to write more elegantly to state that, which was sort of my point; he shoehorned it in and as a result it sounds really dumb. And actually, normal weezing is an okay check to lilligant as well, especially since Sludge Bomb has that juicy 30% poison chance.

As for sleep turns, I bet Muk can take Lilligant even with max sleep, though i'm not sure about the rest. I would've liked a bit of elaboration there;i do understand that's a bit complex to go into for specific turns, but if Muk can do it no matter what, it's a good thing to mention.

HP rock kills any of these fire types after a boost so unless they are scarfed like it says they can not stop lilli.

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pyroar: 351-413 (112.1 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 283-335 (95.2 - 112.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmortar: 263-309 (90 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

I meant "besides HP rock", but that was my bad to not say it. Apparently HP Rock is used around 12% in 1337 stats and 18% in normal stats, plus only being a moves mention, so they're still very excellent checks.

Xatu has Heat Wave and can boost along side lilli with Calm Minds and also has Roost, so pretty much Xatu is going to win a battle if it doesnt have the afore mentioned HPs. The rest of the flying-types are implied, you only need to mention a couple of examples so the reader gets a general idea of what they have to watch out for, if you listed every single flying-type then the analysis would just become cluttered with information that is just reiterating the same point.

That section is two (2) sentences. Actually, it could be one, if you bridged the gap with a comma and replaced however with but, and it wouldn't look out of place or be clunky at all. In fact, this is one of the shortest checks and counters section i've seen in a fair while. I prefer that an analysis be "cluttered with information (which it wouldn't be) then lacking in information. Not every Xatu is carrying those moves, as both usage stats and my personal experience can attest to. In fact, it's not the most common variant by far, and i found no analysis attesting to it being the best or the standard set. If you want to say Calm Mind Xatu, go ahead. Otherwise, try mentioning at least how it beats it. Because, it's really not guaranteed to do so. Thunder Wave can fuck it up, but that won't help xatu defeat it personally, especially since that means Roost meets Giga Drain. Toxic+Roost stall can work, but then again it might set up and steamroll your team, especially if Giga koes everything remaining. Psyshock helps, but not as much as you'd think.

Anyhow, this is a more complex interaction than just "Xatu wins unless HP Rock or Ice".

Who cares if they are implied or not? And if they are, does that imply... Archeops? Swanna? Pelipper? Vivillon? And then you will say that's patently ridiculous because they're not good checks, and you'd be right. But, that's problematic, because you're implying, apparently, that all Flying-types are good checks. Now all of those can kind of beat Lilli sans a QD boost, but still. Also, how do other flying types beat it? What about Articuno, Altaria, Swellow, Rotom-Fan? Would be nice to see this discussed.

So a situational counter is called a check, hence the section being called Checks&Counters.

This is really patronizing, and it's even worse because you missed my actual point. In fact, nothing you said here is relevant to my point, except some damage calcs and other stuff i used to prove my point.

Also, there's no such thing as a situational counter, and if there was, wouldn't the section just be called counters?

Ferroseed is actually a really good stop to every set barring the HP Fire as after a +1 Gyro Ball is doing around 70% to lilli. Vileplume is another check to lilli as Sludge Bomb does about 75% after one boost leaving lilli in KO range from priority. While HP Rock variants get 2HKOd, failing to 2HKO Vileplume with HP Rock.

That sure is a lot of interesting information that wasn't actually in the analysis. Still, that was actually my point, albeit you did it prettier.

See, ferroseed is a counter bar HP fire, while Vileplume is more a counter bar HP ice and Fire, except that's really only 12/18% Hp Rock. However, it can still act as a check if Lilligant has either of those HPs.

Those are very different interactions. Ferroseed either is a counter or nothing, while Vileplume is mostly a check and very occasionally a counter. Yet, they're in the same sentence, and both explained as 'not enjoying SE HPs' which is of course true but not nearly informative enough to how that actually works. They're being lumped together, despite actually being ridiculously different.

Once again if you want to contribute to an analysis waiting until the last second isnt really the best idea. If there is a big issue with something go ahead an comment on it, but with multiple people checking these things, most likely any big issue has already been addressed. Also a lot of these have been sitting here for at least a month giving you plenty of time to address any QC points. And I think people dont wish for there to be a page of arguing back and forth on minute details prolonging the uploading of the analysis.

I felt that a big issue, i.e. super-weak checks and counters section, hadn't been addressed. And honestly, better the upload be delayed than the quality be dropped.

Edit: Raseri, entirely true, I calced this and it does 33-40% uninvested. I had a hard time deciding what to think here, both because you have giga and LO interfering, and because it's hard to find a xatu spread. Higher-level usage, the two highest are 248/172 calm and 252 252 timid, but both are at, like, 6.5% of usage. Of course, there's stuff like 252 252 bold too, so I feel the xatu interaction is kind of complex and it deserves a bit more than what it got, at the least.

I rather like the bit about the fire-type ones;I played with lilligant some, and if the person is playing smart late-game, you may be forced to burn sleep just to set up. Of course, late game they may have taken enough rocks rounds that Lilligant can power through them, so there's that too, but they're still fairly nice checks for what they are. Considering that there's already a fire-types section, not like it's intrusive.

as for flying-types, yea, i kind of noticed this to an extent as well, which is why I didn't like it originally. Maybe if every single flying-type was just boss against it this would be acceptable, but a fair number of them have big problems of some variety or another.

I didn't mean to split the two grass-types up into their own sections; more like their own sentences.

Anyhow, by the way, thanks to the both of you for replying; I do appreciate this

 

[Ares]

FLCL please implement fluery's GP check so this can be uploaded.

 

[watashi]

i'll do this tonight don't know why but i completely missed that lol

 

[watashi]

done

rasedit: uploaded