Little Cup Viability Rankings

[Delver]

IMO axew's biggest downfall is also its biggest asset. specfically Outrage and Superpower. Good Luck said it 500 times, removing boosts to get past counters isnt exactly ideal. but more importantly DDsets (being DD/Outrage or DClaw/Superpower/filler or sub) are just... not good at set up sweeping - i guess is the best way to describe what im going for. Before i get "LOL BLIND LOOK AT CLACS," here me out.

Assuming the set: DD/Outrage/Superpower/2chop with eviolite and is jolly you get:

Outrage: 180 BP (with stab) 2-3 turn move that confuses at the end
Super power 120 BP move that lowers defense and attack, negating DD's boost.
Dragon dance: an awesome set up move boosts attack and speed
dual chop: a notably weaker and less accurate STAB that can break subs and not punish you for using it

Now lets assume you manage to get axew in and set up a dragon dance. At most you're going to get 2-3 turns of outragin' and possible ohko's. Sure 3 for 1 is awesome, but now you're assuming the person you're playing against doesnt have a counter and also doesnt know how to abuse that counter. Also there are MUCH more counters than just steels. Feather dance crow says "lol fuck you," Riolu can copy cat the outrage and dent if not OHKO axew, hippo can come in after a death and slack off the outrages until confusion sets. While the list goes on, What do you plan to do when confusion sets in? the lack of lum berry prevents you from healing up to continue the sweep, but the lack of eviolite leaves you far too weak defensively. Basically what im getting at, is that as a set up sweeper Axew is very powerful but it lacks the "staying" power in the most literal sense: it will often force it self out due to self induced stat drops and confusion. Personally, this mixed with the fact that other than having a dragon type stab and 1-2 extra points in the atk stat there is *nothing* that differentiates it self from the higher teired sweepers hinders its access to the A teir. I have to agree with good luck as a B teir mon. It requires just as much team support if not more because it, at best, can only *reliably* stay in 2-3 turns after its set up. Is that enough to win you the game? sure maybe; but why take that chance with your sweeper when you can just as easily not?

To put another way: Sure you can OHKO my ferroseed, but if the defense drop allows me to OHKO with my revenge killer, I dont really give a fuck now do i?

 

[Donphantastic.]

Wooper: B Rank

It's not used very often, but it's a great counter to set up sweepers, has a great typing, and is quite bulky. It also hits surprisingly hard for such cute little fish, and can phaze with Yawn. I use this set on my Sand Storm team

Quentyn (Wooper) (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Unaware
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 196 Def / 76 Atk
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Yawn
- Recover

 

[Oiawesome]

The main thing that stops whooper from being good is its 4x weakness ,Im preety sure even LO Sunkern KOs with absorb lol,and It lacks offensive pressure right of the bat,so the curse set HAS to be used to actualy hurt most of the set up sweepers you seem to be "walling" and the curse set has its problems as well,Being a full stop to Scraggy dosent even give it a niche because evreybody and their mother packs a scraggy counter these days so,yeah.

 

[Rowan]

Wooper: B Rank

It's not used very often, but it's a great counter to set up sweepers, has a great typing, and is quite bulky. It also hits surprisingly hard for such cute little fish, and can phaze with Yawn.

The thing with Wooper is that unaware seems like a call niche but it's not that bulky. Also, what use does it have in the metagame? The only mons I can see it being useful for are some shell smashers like Tirtouga, and there's pokemon that can counter them without being sitting ducks most of the time. I'm not commenting too much as I haven't used it to any great extent but I'm just not sure what the point in using it is in the current metagame. If you could give more detail on why you think it should be B, then maybe you might convince me.

 

[Good_Luck!]

I remember having played with Wooper prior to the unbanning of Gligar/Murkrow/Misdreavus and it wasn't exceptional.

Unaware would be good if Wooper had a little more bulk on both HP and defense. It has even less SpD than Hippopotas meaning that its role as defensive Ground-type is very outclassed.

IMO, Haze+Water Absorb is much better on Wooper as, like cork said, is a very good answer to almost all Shell Smashers (Clamperl and Omanyte too if they lack HP Grass); it also lets Wooper be the best Restalk Chinchou counter in the tier.

Its abilities are very good but its stats are low. Also, it's really difficult to fit on a team as there are so many Ground-types and Water-types in LC.

The main thing that stops whooper from being good is its 4x weakness ,Im preety sure even LO Sunkern KOs with absorb lol

This.

Grass 'mons are on the rise for its ability to counter almost all Sand teams. I don't know how your team fares against Grass-types but I think if you use him it's difficult to face Lileep, Regenerator Foongus and even Bulbasaur. Wooper is way outclassed by many other common 'mons, but just because of its ability to counter Shell Smashers I think it deserves C rank at least. I won't push higher because I haven't played a lot with him this meta, but I can tell that its role hasn't changed a lot in the BW2 shift.

 

[Rowan]

No offense but ,I think this thread is really negetive,Their are some really good pokes wich should be higher and damn good arguments(and bad arguments like mine) and really ,not all,but some stupid arguments for those pokemon not to be higher,another problem is Favortisim plays a big role in nominations wich leads to some stupid suggestions.Just posting to tell you guys and me to get smarter in your nominations and arguments against them.

If you think this thread is 'really negetive' then don't post here. The purpose of this thread is to reach a consensus of tiers through a majority. For instance, I argued that Dratini should be A-tier yet more people thought it should be B-tier. I may still think it is A-tier material, but majority rules so it was put into B. Sometimes we just have to accept that fact and move on. It is in no way constructive to criticise anyone that is active in this thread; if someone posts a silly suggestion, then we'll just discuss the suggestion and explain why we disagree. This results in the person posting learning a bit about the little cup metagame and it also encourages the people replying to come up with valid and coherent arguments, forcing them to think more about the little cup metagame. We can only get smarter in our nominations and arguments against them through doing it more, and sometimes that means making mistakes along the way.

(If mods feel that this post is unnecessary, please feel free to delete it.)

 

[Electrolyte]

I don't know if this was intended, but the list is missing some pokemon, so I'll just voice my opinion on two of them.

Archen for B tier
Archen is seriously quite fearsome in LC. Its monstrous attack dwarfs that of both Mienfoo and Drilbur, and its speed surpasses both as well. It has a nice movepool too, getting Roost, Acrobatics, Earthquake, and Stone Edge, which makes it a sweeping machine. However, instead of S tier, or even A tier, I feel as if Archen should be put in B tier. This is because of its horrible ability; I'm sure all of you know how much of a nuisance it is. Archen's typing isn't that great either; and its pitiful defenses do not help it maintain +50% HP. Its weakness to SR and the fact that it is totally crippled by status do not help either. As long as you play it right, and keep priority and hazards away, Archen will do wonders.

Drifloon for B tier
Drifloon is an oddball. It has an awesome ability in Unburden, allowing it to turn its already fair 70 base speed into that of a fearsome sweeper- outspeeding much of the tier. It has two great sets that are almost perfect for it; it has AcroGem, which hits fairly hard and fast, as well as SubCM, which snowballs into a hard and fast hitter. It also has decent defenses, though it's bulk isn't high it has good HP which helps it take hits. Its main losing points is its flying and ghost typing, which makes it vulnerable to all pokemon in the S-tier, wether it be by Drilbur's Rock Slide or Murkrow's Sucker Punch. Drifloon is also a bit weak; Acrogem doesn't hit very hard without a gem, and SubCM needs a bunch of CM's under its belt to beat some of the primary walls of the tier, such as Lileep.

just my two cents

 

[JacobNinja]

I don't know if this was intended, but the list is missing some pokemon, so I'll just voice my opinion on two of them.

Archen for B tier
Archen is seriously quite fearsome in LC. Its monstrous attack dwarfs that of both Mienfoo and Drilbur, and its speed surpasses both as well. It has a nice movepool too, getting Roost, Acrobatics, Earthquake, and Stone Edge, which makes it a sweeping machine. However, instead of S tier, or even A tier, I feel as if Archen should be put in B tier. This is because of its horrible ability; I'm sure all of you know how much of a nuisance it is. Archen's typing isn't that great either; and its pitiful defenses do not help it maintain +50% HP. Its weakness to SR and the fact that it is totally crippled by status do not help either. As long as you play it right, and keep priority and hazards away, Archen will do wonders.

Drifloon for B tier
Drifloon is an oddball. It has an awesome ability in Unburden, allowing it to turn its already fair 70 base speed into that of a fearsome sweeper- outspeeding much of the tier. It has two great sets that are almost perfect for it; it has AcroGem, which hits fairly hard and fast, as well as SubCM, which snowballs into a hard and fast hitter. It also has decent defenses, though it's bulk isn't high it has good HP which helps it take hits. Its main losing points is its flying and ghost typing, which makes it vulnerable to all pokemon in the S-tier, wether it be by Drilbur's Rock Slide or Murkrow's Sucker Punch. Drifloon is also a bit weak; Acrogem doesn't hit very hard without a gem, and SubCM needs a bunch of CM's under its belt to beat some of the primary walls of the tier, such as Lileep.

just my two cents

Seconding archen for b or even a. Also, drifloon for c.

Archen: most sweepers in lc die under 50% anyway, so it doesn't really care about defeatist. Infact, I have had the oran berry acro/eq/stonedge/agility set sweep me, with ridiculous power, decent 25/15/15 bulk to set up, and the ability to outspeed anything.

Drifloon: while it looks good, it just loses to too many common things like any murkrow, misdreavous, i believe some mienfoo, chinchou, snover, drillbur, sandshrew, archen, magnemite, houndour, cranidos, most bronzor, i believe some timburr, pawniard, etc. It really lacks the power and movepool to sweep, even with unburden. It is forced out so much that the unburden boost can't be counted on, and its frailty and lack of both power and staying power force you to run another ghost, which can cripple your overall team.

 

[Oiawesome]

If you think this thread is 'really negetive' then don't post here. The purpose of this thread is to reach a consensus of tiers through a majority. For instance, I argued that Dratini should be A-tier yet more people thought it should be B-tier. I may still think it is A-tier material, but majority rules so it was put into B. Sometimes we just have to accept that fact and move on. It is in no way constructive to criticise anyone that is active in this thread; if someone posts a silly suggestion, then we'll just discuss the suggestion and explain why we disagree. This results in the person posting learning a bit about the little cup metagame and it also encourages the people replying to come up with valid and coherent arguments, forcing them to think more about the little cup metagame. We can only get smarter in our nominations and arguments against them through doing it more, and sometimes that means making mistakes along the way.

(If mods feel that this post is unnecessary, please feel free to delete it.)

I posted this on the wrong page I had 2 pages open on my tablet and since I saw the chatbox,I thought this was the other forum sorry for the inconveniancy.

 

[Chieliee]

Wooper: B Rank

It's not used very often, but it's a great counter to set up sweepers, has a great typing, and is quite bulky. It also hits surprisingly hard for such cute little fish, and can phaze with Yawn. I use this set on my Sand Storm team

55/45/25 is pretty horrible, to be honest. Even if wooper can stay alive, it can't really do much to damage the opposing team or support the owner's team.

I don't know if this was intended, but the list is missing some pokemon, so I'll just voice my opinion on two of them.

Archen for B tier

Drifloon for B tier

Yeah i kinda agree with this. Drifloon doesn't really need much support, yet it can really punch holes in a team if played correctly. Archen is quite the opposite. It requires a ton of support, but once it's in you just spam Acrobatics or one of it's other moves and something will probably die. I've used Archen and it's harder to use than it seems, so i'm kind of pushing it to C. B is fine too though

 

[Delver]

Drifloon has been talked about constantly and honestly; I really just dont see any ghost type being over C teir so long as misdreavus is in the teir. She litterally does *EVERYTHING* better than any other ghost in Little Cup. I am willing to concede to B teir though, as drifloon does have significantly more flexability in its sets (albiet they both perform similiar roles) than most other ghosts

 

[Electrolyte]

Actually I think the reason why it's so viable is because it CAN defeat Misdreavus AND Mienfoo (only SubCM though for Missy) Mienfoo can't really touch it bar Knock Off, since Stone Edge is getting rarer. Misdreavus falls to a +1 Shadow Ball iirc, and if Drifloon is at unburden or behind a sub when Missy comes in Drifloon always wins. How's that for a good ghost type. Misdreavus is an extremely shaky counter to Drifloon, as it has to come in before the Balloon racks up boosts or there's no way it can force it out.

 

[macle]

Archen, Tailow, and Drif have been added to B

 

[TheOnyx]

Timburr for S Rank

I've used Timburr on nearly all my teams, and I can say the with a Specially Defensive set abusing Bulk Up, It is AMAZING. Even with no Bulk Ups and just Eviolite and Max HP I've took things like non-Life Orb Brave Bird from Murkrow.

calc

Hide

240 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Timburr: 26-32 (96.29 - 118.51%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Let's say they have a Life Orb but Timburr got a Bulk Up: 240 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. +1 236 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Timburr: 23-31 (85.18 - 114.81%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
Now let's see what Timburr can do back
+1 36 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 18-22 (81.81 - 100%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
If Timburr has Guts active it's even better: +1 36 Atk Guts Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 27-33 (122.72 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So it can even take on Murkrow, (sometimes, only in a good situation) and can do alot to nearly everything in LC. Timburr really is a great, and with priority, and somewhat reliable recovery it is very deserving of S Rank

 

[Phazon00]

I actually agree with Timburr for S rank. It is a very, very big threat in the metagame, as psychic / flying types are getting rarer. At the very least, it is the best fighting type in A, and a great candidate for S.

 

[iss]

Timburr should definitely stay in A Rank. Firstly, Murkrow will not lose to Timburr unless it switches in on a Stone Edge. The chances of a Timburr surviving a Brave Bird in real conditions is fairly unlikely, considering how common hazards, hail, and sand are. While Timburr does get to do some cool things such as beat most Misdreavus 1v1, you're going to be left with a 30% Timburr if you do fight a Misdreavus. A 30% Timburr, when you only have 10 Speed, is not going to survive anything.

Say you send out Timburr against a Mienfoo. This is one fight that you appear to straight-up win, as your Drain Punch does way more than Mienfoo's Drain Punch. But does the Mienfoo just fight you? No, it uses Knock Off and U-turns away, healing 80-100% of the damage you did to it with Regenerator. Without Eviolite, Timburr is fairly easily killed by several Pokemon, such as the aforementioned Murkrow and Misdreavus, as well as others such as Frillish, Drifloon, and even Croagunk.

Since Timburr is slow, it needs to be bulky in order to do damage. Sure, it can beat a lot of things 1v1. However, in most cases you'll take so much damage/lose your Eviolite that you're basically useless. Mach Punch is nice, but it isn't overly strong. It won't even kill standard Scarf Snover without prior damage, and unless you run a ton of Special Defense EVs Blizzard will 2HKO Timburr. Timburr is good, but is it really S-Rank? Is it really a metagame-defining force like Mienfoo and Misdreavus are? To me, Timburr is certainly not up there.

(side note: Bulk Up Timburr on Honko's calc is 236 HP / 196 Atk / 236 SpD Careful+Adamant. I have no idea what happened.)

 

[Celestavian]

Timburr should definitely stay in A Rank. Firstly, Murkrow will not lose to Timburr unless it switches in on a Stone Edge. The chances of a Timburr surviving a Brave Bird in real conditions is fairly unlikely, considering how common hazards, hail, and sand are. While Timburr does get to do some cool things such as beat most Misdreavus 1v1, you're going to be left with a 30% Timburr if you do fight a Misdreavus. A 30% Timburr, when you only have 10 Speed, is not going to survive anything.

Say you send out Timburr against a Mienfoo. This is one fight that you appear to straight-up win, as your Drain Punch does way more than Mienfoo's Drain Punch. But does the Mienfoo just fight you? No, it uses Knock Off and U-turns away, healing 80-100% of the damage you did to it with Regenerator. Without Eviolite, Timburr is fairly easily killed by several Pokemon, such as the aforementioned Murkrow and Misdreavus, as well as others such as Frillish, Drifloon, and even Croagunk.

Since Timburr is slow, it needs to be bulky in order to do damage. Sure, it can beat a lot of things 1v1. However, in most cases you'll take so much damage/lose your Eviolite that you're basically useless. Mach Punch is nice, but it isn't overly strong. It won't even kill standard Scarf Snover without prior damage, and unless you run a ton of Special Defense EVs Blizzard will 2HKO Timburr. Timburr is good, but is it really S-Rank? Is it really a metagame-defining force like Mienfoo and Misdreavus are? To me, Timburr is certainly not up there.

(side note: Bulk Up Timburr on Honko's calc is 236 HP / 196 Atk / 236 SpD Careful+Adamant. I have no idea what happened.)

The bolded part is actually false, in my experience. With pretty much every Eviolite Mienfoo I've ever faced, if you haven't boosted, standard Mienfoo actually outdamages you with Drain Punch. Combine that with Knock Off and Regenerator, and Mienfoo wins this battle most of the time. With non-Eviolite sets, Hi Jump Kick just smashes Timburr, especially from the Life Orb set.

 

[iss]

The bolded part is actually false, in my experience. With pretty much every Eviolite Mienfoo I've ever faced, if you haven't boosted, standard Mienfoo actually outdamages you with Drain Punch. Combine that with Knock Off and Regenerator, and Mienfoo wins this battle most of the time. With non-Eviolite sets, Hi Jump Kick just smashes Timburr, especially from the Life Orb set.

Timburr will win the fight after a Bulk Up, regardless of Knock Off. Shown below with average damage rolls:

Turn 1
Mienfoo used Knock Off (1 damage)
Timburr used Bulk Up

Mienfoo 21/21
Timburr 24/25

Turn 2
Mienfoo used Drain Punch (9 damage)
Timburr used Drain Punch (10 damage, 5 heal)

Mienfoo 11/21
Timburr 20/25

Turn 3
Mienfoo used Drain Punch (9 damage, 4 heal)
Timburr used Drain Punch (10 damage, 5 heal)

Mienfoo 5/21
Timburr 16/25

Turn 4
Timburr used Mach Punch (6 damage)
Mienfoo fainted

Although this scenario is pretty irrelevant because Mienfoo would just U-turn out, if Timburr is forced out, it is weakened and doesn't have an Eviolite anymore, making it pretty vulnerable to everything. Still fits with the "good but not S-Rank" argument.

 

[TUO]

Timburr is great. I give that thing a High B/Low A though. Also, what do people here think about growlithe, ponyta an oshawott. Oshawott might be C/D, the two others are B IMO.

 

[MapleDoom]

Oshawott for C Tier
Oshawott is a good set-up sweeper with swords dance, and with the addition of aqua jet, it can sweep a lot of pokes in the meta.

Archen Should Stay in B Tier
Archen is pretty good, coming with 112 attack, stab acrobatics, and a flying gem, but defeatists severely limits it, requiring a moveslot for roost, and it uses a turn that allows the enemy to set-up.

(lol sorry I'm not too into LC...)

 

[CactusCacti]

Honestly I'm gona add on the Wooper love;
I think it should get atleast C.

It's an absolute get out of jail for free card against any set upper. Dragon dancer giving trouble? Shell smasher? No problem, Wooper in and all those stat ups were waste of turns for the opponent.

As long as wooper hasn't suffered prior damage, with eviolite it can soak in pretty much all of the common set up mon moves, specialy those dragon dancer outrages and recover the damage off like it was nothing. SR resistance helps it too in the case.

I use a wooper with; Scald. StockPile, Yawn, Recover.
One stockpile and the opponent is pretty much forced to lure either a status introducer or grass type user, whom you can nail with Yawn and pretty much force a field reset for both sides.

 

[Celestavian]

It can only really stop Scraggy and slow down Timburr. Trying to wall Shell Smashers like Clamperl or pretty much any special attacker is asking for Wooper to die. It is only bulky physically, and even then it isn't that bulky. Special attack destroy it, and if it can only wall a few sweepers that have other, better checks, then what point is there in using Wooper?

 

[Good_Luck!]

Oshawott for C Tier
Oshawott is a good set-up sweeper with swords dance, and with the addition of aqua jet, it can sweep a lot of pokes in the meta.

With that movepool I see it hard to get around bulky Chinchou or Defensive Grass/Poison types, you either loose to one or the others. It does, however, get STAB Priority which is its saving grace. I wouldn't know, I have never used it, and probably never will because there are other physical sweepers with Dragon Dance (often mentioned as best move for physical sweepers) in the Water-type category. C looks really high for it, though.

MapleDoom brought up the Physical Water-types, so I would like to discuss them:

Totodile is a better Sword Dancer, arguably, if only because of better attack and defense. Now, I would make a case about Totodile for B because of its acces to Dragon Dance.

Krabby is OH SO EASILY walled if you run the Agility+Swords Dance set. It's walled by Frillish and Lileep not to mention it has a hard time to set up without Eviolite. It lacks priority and its speed is... not good without an agility boost. I think it deserves C if only for its Scarf set which works like Cranidos' but without the crippling weakness to Mach Punch/Vaccuum Wave. I have used both, the set up and the scarf set, and I can say only the last one is good.

Barboach is good, I have used it and its not really bad. It has good speed and good bulk, its single weakness is what cripples it as it's a very common one nowadays. Coverage SUCKS (Bounce, lol) but it's not bad for the likes of Chinchou, Fire-types, Hippopotas... and it doesn't care about Sandstorm damage. I would say C tier because there are other Dragon Dancers with better coverage.

Goldeen... who? Well, I tried to use it on a failed rain team and it was... meh. It gets LightningRod (unfortunately, its boost is useless on a physical attacker) and Drill Run on BW2 meaning that it doesn't fear Chinchou, and has Megahorn for Grass-types. I struggled with it because it lacks either the offensive presence to be fearsome (thanks Eviolite) or the speed to outrun key threats and set up Rain Dance. It's pretty lame, but that's only my experience. D tier

Tirtouga, OMG! It's adorable! Now, I think we agree that it's either B or A being able to fulfill many roles in a team thanks to movepool, typing, stats and abilities. I haven't used much, the only set I can vouch for is the support set with Knock Off, Scald, SR and Toxic. It was good enough on a sand team but that meant that you can't run Lileep (or you can if you like a Fighting weakness).

And last...

Shellder: OMG, I have swept with him many times and its ridiculous, Its capabilities to sweep through Focus Sashes, subs and Sturdies is AMAZING. All I have to say is that, even though it gets outclassed by Tirtouga (who gets STAB on its main attacking moves, can use a support set and has a better typing for this sandstorm era) it really shines on its own with that amazing defense and Shell Smash. B tier but only because Tirtouga exists.

Kabuto, Buizel, Corphish and others, I can't really tell. Never used them, never seen them (except for Buizel but it has never been a problem).

 

[Delver]

Timburr is great. I give that thing a High B/Low A though. Also, what do people here think about growlithe, ponyta an oshawott. Oshawott might be C/D, the two others are B IMO.

I touched on the fire types in this post.

As for Oshawott; I have never used it so I'm going by my intital reaction from looking at its page: just use totodile. It litterally is just better at what Oshawott does. I'd say D. C is too nice: it doesnt get any boosting moves to let it abuse its decent special attack stat and it doesnt have the defenses to pull off a defensive set.

editing for good Luck's post which i some how managed to miss:

Krabby I'd have to use for myself before judging the viablity of the scarf /setup sets though it sounds about right

. Barboach i feel is high if only cause dragon dancing is such a common set up and its just done so much better by so many other mons; but I can understand a C ranking, ( i definitely feel its more D). When you rely on a two turn move for coverage - thats an issue, though STAB + return is basically unresisted.

I woulda shot goldeen for E if you hadnt brought up its decent coverage options for a water type. I can see D, but im still shooting for an E ranking on him.

tirtiouga gets S teir because its too cute (in actuality I think its more of an A teir mon, you can check my posts in the "shell smasher thread" if you wanna know why - I dont have time to repeat them all).

Shellder is definetly a step below Tirtouga, if still abusively good (again, check that Shell smasher thread, i explain myself there.) I agree with B

I tried a Buizel thing and i found it ran into similiar problems as goldeen. It has an.. "ok" choice set but it really lacks the power to do much besides revenge kill with aqua jet. Corphish i talked about a bit earlier in this thread; i think i called for it to be C on the grounds that it has adaptability water type stabs that hit nutty base damages and can boost with DD past 21 but is still just generally inferior to scraggy in every waay shape and form.

Kabuto is a bad anorith imo, but like you dont really have an opinion on him.

Final Edit for Wooper discussion:

when i get time I'll run some calcs for scraggy vs Wooper. Either it'll prove that not having boosts =/= not being able to kill wooper or that wooper is a legitamat answer to dealing with set up sweepers. I'll be expecting it to beat scraggy because if it *cant* beat the best set up sweeper in the teir, then - as a mon niched for beatign set up sweepers, its not really doing its job. I'll probably throw some Drilbur calcs too, cause he;s also abusive.

 

[Oiawesome]

Timburr is S tier not nominating,just agreeing.I actualy use the stuff I talk about unlike a lot of people so you might want to look at my post:Timburr does 2 things extremly well :Bulk Up and SubPunch. These two sets work very diffrently and Have diffrent counter and actualy Timburr does have some awesome underrated sets that I use time to time.

- The Standerd,Bulk Up

Imagine Scraggy exept status is not also set up on,it is a freind!Bulk Up Timburr is one of the biggest threats in the meta plowing through most teams without even trying!A simple set of BU/Drain Punch/Mach Punch/Stone MISS or Payback can just set up to +1 or even +2 given how easy it is to set up with this boss,It can beat evrey ghost in the tier as acrofloon does around 80% only at +1 and missy cant do shit while Timburr just loves WoW and can set up to +1 infront of missy and KO the next turn with payback.Timburr also counters Scraggy while not that big in a tier full of Scraggy counters it is nice to beat big threats.And since almost nothing beats Timburr in this meta via countering or hard walling it is nigh impossible to switch in as even if you can KO @ +0 you still fear bulk up.

- Timburr on Roids' -SubPunch

The newly discoverd set makes its mark still DENTING resistes HARD unboosted.Simply come in on something BU scares out,sub and as they switch in abra focus punch/payback+mach punch combo it to death ,switch out rinse and repeat until all timbur checks are gone and then wreck the remaining pokes with FIGHTING STAB.the key point is to come in on something harmless and setting up a sub on something like solosis is just dumb.Honestly one of if not the best Lures in LC things like Murkrow go from check to a victim of focus mach combo.

- Releasing The Beast-SubBU
Ever thought:Gosh I wish standerd BU Timburr was bulkier!?Well here you go with the Defensive spread and BU Im sure that evrey defensive variant of misdreavous fails to break the sub with STAB SBall and you can sub,bu,*sub break*sub,bu*sub break*sub and payback it to death now you are mad bulky,and at +2/+2 and behind a sub and now you can drain punch the next poke that comes in and kill them off and now you are at +2/+2 no sub and damn good health range.Lack of priority is sad but who cares when you are the best bulk uper in LC AND comepletly ready to sweep.