SM OU Manaphy Rain (Qualified for OLT 8 Times, Peaked #1, 2213 Elo)

Ske

Uh, uh, uh, uh (Yeah)
is a Pre-Contributor

191472


Hey guys, Teambuilding is something i always loved doing, one day my friend Sayuze thought about making a Manaphy rain team, so he hit me up and asked if i could make one for him and i decided to make a Manaphy Rain with included water spam to break most water resists around 2018's OLT meta-game and last cycle Ash Qualified and had a decent run, almost making playoffs despite only really using this rain team which is almost unheard of by itself nowadays. i have decided to update this RMT, to edit some old outdated sets and go into further detail about this team as after its creation in 2018, as it also became very prominent in 2019's OLT's cycles, becoming one of the most defining teams of Gen 7 & the face of Rain, when i made this team i made it in the intent to be similar to xtra$hine's Birdspam but instead of strong flying types, & Set up sweepers, its strong water types breaking each others checks & counters and paving a way to victory, This team heavily effected the metagame as the OLT meta had began building against it and many people qualified for OLT with this team, some players qualified using the more recent version with Tapu Koko over Greninja to help with Dark Pulse & Hurricane, and some just used the classic water spam version with Ash Greninja


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-- Introduction --
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Manaphy on rain is a complete terror as it destroys common water resists such as Ferrothorn & Toxapex, it eliminates the Stall & Balance matchup for rain which makes rain elevate to highs never seen before in gen 7, This team focuses on Waterium-Z Manaphy to break past bulky grass types such as Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, & AV Tangrowth and even special walls such as Chansey so Ash Greninja or Tapu Koko can clean late game. I first built this when my good friend Sayuze wanted help building a Manaphy team with a set that High Impulse had made iirc with Tail Glow & Rest. but with some bulk and speed I decided to cut down the bulk that set had and go for max speed to outspeed Banded Zygarde. With Zyagrde banned around early summer i decided to make a spread similar to High Impulses but to ditch the Speed and go full on max HP to become as Bulky as possible, When making the team at first i added Chople Ferrothorn over Magearna to Lure SD Tapu Bulu & with enough attack investment to OHKO Mega Alakazam which is a huge threat to rain builds. after some time Figy Berry is just the most optimal choice as it frees up moveslots on Ferrothron and makes Mega Swampert and Ash Greninja much more threatening. Standard Ash Greninja is the way to go here as Hydro Pump in rain can 2hko a knocked off Chansey from the help of teammates, Spikes Ash Greninja is the most common option to pressure common builds and to destroys Shedinja on stall.I also added Superpower Mega Swampert to punish Ferrothorn & Scarfed Kartana 2 very big threats to rain builds such as this, Stealth Rock or Sub are both fine options however. Tornadus was added to check mons such as Kartana, Tapu Bulu, & Tangrowth & with Metronome Tornadus can pressure Ferrothorn, Celesteela, & Toxapex which is really helpful on a build like this. Peliper can run Pursuit to trap Shedinja if you decide to run Ice Beam on Ash Greninja & Wiki Berry is a fine option on Manaphy if your Z move slot is occupied by another Pokemon, this Rain build is a good template for Building rain as other than Manaphy & Greninja the other 4 are pretty much staples on common rain nowadays.

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https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/olt-v-discussion-thread.3639258/page-2#post-7886835
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/olt-vi-discussion-thread.3652748/




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-- In Depth Building Process --
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Torn.png

At first I knew i wanted the combination of Mega Swampert, Waterium-Z Manaphy, & Ash Greninja, Pelipper is self-explanatory as it is the most viable Drizzle mon in OU.


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Now that i had the offensive core now i needed a better a defensive one, I then decided to add Ferrothorn to check Psychic/Fairy Types and provide a water resist.

pelipper.gif
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Lastly i added Tornadus to check mons such as Kartana, SD Tapu Bulu as both are very troublesome for this team.

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-- In Depth Look --
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pelipper.gif
Damp Rock.png

Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Scald
-
Roost

One of the most important (If not the most important) mon on any rain team, I run max defense on this to check Mega Swampert as efficiently as possible, it helps pivoting with Physical attackers a lot as well. Knock Off is a amazing tech as it hits every water resist & Chansey which allows Ash Greninja to 2hko with Hydro Pump. Pursuit is a funny tech you can run for Shedinja but Knock Off is much preferred to abuse Chansey switch ins & Water/Grass types that try to switch in. U-turn allows Pelipper to pivot in this teams offensive threats such as Manaphy & Mega Swampert & forms a nice pivoting core with Tornadus. Scald & Roost is self-explanatory on this set as it provides Pelipper with reliable water Stab & reliable recovery.

Spread Explanation
Standard max max Pelipper.

Ash-Greninja.gif
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Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Spikes


Greninja is the main cleaner & revenge killer as it has solid speed even outside of rain, Hydro Pump is a massive nuke in rain and it allows Ash to evolve easily. Fairly standard EVs allow Ash Greninja to hit as hard & to be as fast as possible. Spikes give pressure to the opposing side & snipes Shedinja trying to cheese Manaphy. Pair this with Spikes Ferrothorn to form an insane double spiking core that make this team even more hard to deal with. Ice Beam is a nice option that lures mons such as Tapu Bulu and punishes Tornadus while also sniping Mega Garchomp. evolving Ash Greninja is very rewarding, as it becomes a water type Mewtwo once it evolves & becomes almost impossible to deal with once Battle Bond activates.

Spread Explanation
Standard max max Ash-Greninja.

swampert-mega.gif
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Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Stealth Rock / - Superpower / - Substitute


Mega-Swampert makes a excellent core with Pelipper, Blocking Volt-Switch is amazing for rain teams & Mega Swampert is a really hard mon to switch into, Its base 150 attack & STAB combination make Swampert one of the most threatening Pokemon on rain builds. Max ATK & Speed allow Mega-Swampert to hit as hard & as fast as possible, Earthquake pressures Toxapex which is very important on rain builds, Stealth Rock is the most common option as Mega Swampert forces switches making it a very effective Stealth Rocker. Superpower is very nice here, as it does alot to Ferrothorn as Ferrothorn is a big threat for this team. Substitute is also a amazing option as it makes Mega Swampert even harder to revenge kill. sometimes its best to even sack Mega-Swampert if necessary to get a heavy hit off on Ferrothorn with Superpower as a last ditch effort to have Greninja clean.

Spread Explanation
Standard max max Mega-Swampert.


manaphy.gif
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Manaphy @ Waterium Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Psychic / - Ice Beam

-Rest

Manaphy is the MVP on this team, Waterium-Z Boosted with a Modest Nature destroys anything that does not have Water Absorb as even water resists get OHKO'd by a boosted Hydro Vortex. Modest Nature is so Manaphy can have a good chance of OHKO'ing mons such as Ferrothorn & OHKO'ing AV Tangrowth. Ice Beam is a tech Mob Barley used on a variation of my team he made that in conjunction with Waterium-Z Manaphy can destroy Mega Latias & Protect Tapu Bulu without 50-50's while also having a roll to OHKO AV Tangrowth. Rest is the preferred option on any Rain Team as it makes Manaphy a insane threat and makes it one of the most dangerous breakers in the entire tier.

Spread Explanation
Modest Manaphy allows you to have a good chance to OHKO Ferrothorn,
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 328-387 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

ferrothorn.gif
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Ferrothorn @ Figy Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes / - Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
-Toxic
- Power Whip


Ferrothorn is a much much needed Water Resist & Fairy Resist on this team, Ferrothorn is so important on this team to deal with the likes of regular & Mega-Gyarados & Ash Greninja. Toxic is needed here to check CM Mega Latias especially on variants without Ash Greninja, Knock Off hits other Ferrothorn which is manditory as this team is very weak to Ferrothorn otherwise. Spikes is here to help the team and form a double spiking core with Ash Greninja but Stealth Rock is also a fine option over Spikes to give Mega Swampert more moveslots.

Spread Explanation
Standard max max Ferrothorn.

tornadus-therian.gif
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Tornadus-Therian Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- Uturn
- Defog


Tornadus is an amazing Pokemon on rain builds as Hurricane becomes a 100% accuracy 110 bp STAB move that becomes hard to switch into, U-Turn is the preferred option here as it allows Tornadus to bring in the Water breakers, However Taunt + Knock Off Tornadus is fantastic on rain as it pressures Toxapex, Celesteela & Ferrothorn, Knock Off removes Ferrothorns Leftovers & Taunt prevents it from leeching & stops set-up sweepers such as Reuniclus & Magearna. Tornados is the Defogger of choice here as its the most consistent Defogger in the tier.

Spread Explanation
Standard max max Tornadus.


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--
Threat-list --
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Mega-Alakazam
Alakazam is the biggest threat to rain teams regardless of what version it is, Make sure u keep Mega Swampert healthy at all times and position yourself in a manner where Mega Alakazam doesn't get any free turns.

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Ash-Greninja
Original version doesn't have a solid Dark resist so Ferrothorn can get worn down pretty easily, Try to play carefully around it & do not let it evolve,
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Tornadus-Therian
This team has no Flying resist on the original version so Tornadus is a huge problem, Try to pressure it with Mega-Swampert & Ash Greninja as much as possible,

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Ferrothorn
Ferrothorn is very annoying for this team, Superpower Mega-Swampert & Taunt Knock Off Tornadus can check it but try to play smart around it,


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Pyukumuku
Without Energy Ball on Manaphy Pyukumuku Stall can be really hard to break,

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-- Replays & Showdown Videos --



Aye shout-out to Blunder for getting this game live, I think it was a great show-case of how the team,
Also check his channel out he makes great content. Shoutouts to Renny for going in depth on the team as well.

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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392707
A really good & close match respect 2 both players SoulWind & Lopunny Kicks

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-393736
A game with Ash KetchumGamer & XxKidofDeathxX

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-393900
Here's a game with my good friends Twixtry & robopoke

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392560
The @Redempton & Googly game which series of games was fun to watch imo

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-396015
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-396025
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-398812
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-431346
Three more games with Ash KetchumGamer vs blarghlfarghl & SoulWind & SPL X Finals game Blunder vs Empo.

Shoutouts to Paycard for spamming this and getting #1 with this a while back before OLT i see you lol.

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-- Ash Version--
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-- Koko Version--
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Last edited:

Mannat

is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Won SPL Predictions
Hi Ske ♥ ✨, great RMT

The only suggestion I've got is a tweak to your Torn-T spread that you should consider.


Tornadus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 128 HP / 128 Def / 204 Spe (48 Freed EVs)
Timid Nature

-Hurricane
-Defog
-U-Turn
-Taunt

121 base speed is an awkward speed tier, and realistically in the OU meta there's no benefit to max +121 on Torn other than to speed-tie other Tornadus-T, and as this is supposed to be a bulky spread anyways there definitely isn't a use for that.

I've removed 48 Speed EVs off your original torn-t set -- this keeps Torn at just the necessary speed to outpace timid choice-scarf Magnezone and timid Serperior. It still outpaces all the mons its intended to for this team, but it no longer possesses unnecessary speed EVs that are instead better used towards its bulk. As you've focused on a Phys-defense based Torn the extra 48 EVs will come in handy during pinched damage rolls; another advantage to the adjusted spread is to slow u-turn against opposing torn to safely bring in an offensive check.

I've also made it shiny because I believe shiny✨ always looks better.
Removing speed Evs from tornadus t can be disastrous for this team as this is a rain team without a single flying resist and just gets obliterated by opposing torn. For those that actively use team/tornadus rains similar to this one, you have to stay in with your torn to get the damage on the opposing torn and a good bit of games come down to who wins the hurricane tie, so I would vehemently disagree with removing speed evs from torn because losing the “tie” every time guaranteed can lose you games more often than not. This change would be fine if you’re talking about the Magearna version of this team because that team has an actually decent flying resist, but this team just doesn’t.

—->

+ misc set changes

In terms of actual changes that could realistically benefit this team, a potential change to consider would be replacing tornadus for something like a taunt z koko so that you still have a stallbreaker and making manaphy a leftovers tg set instead as it gives a much more consistent check to tornt and another way of offensively pressuring ash gren. Obviously if you make this change, it opens up the door to kartana/Tapu Bulu, so you’d need to change sets around and make gren something like mysticwater with gunk and ferro twave, but it would be very useful for patching up the most prominent issues with this team. Finally, it’s a pretty small change but one that I believe will bolster the team’s effectiveness and that is moving literally all of Ferros spdef evs to attack. Getting the guaranteed Ohko on zam is cool and all but zam almost ALWAYS gets chipped by rain and will most likely die after sr is up anyways and the reduced spdef makes it infinitely harder to actually switch into zam as well as checking ash gren. Rain in general is pretty hard to tweak because of how formulaic it is, so that’s probably the best I can do to improve this team. Congrats on the success and look out for some shit coming from my end :D

tl;dr: taunt z koko>torn, twave>spikes ferro with more bulk, gunk>surf gren w mystic water
 
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Solid team. Some other notable threats are AV Magearna and Zard Y. Magearna is a pain to switch into as nothing but Pert can handle Volt Switch spam, but dislikes being weakened by Fleur Cannon. Also, nothing is breaking it unless you have a healthy Pert or +3 Manaphy. You could try running Knock Off over Taunt on Torn. I really like Taunt but Knock Off improves the MU against Magearna, Chansey, etc. To be clear, Taunt is very good and probably a better option but it's something to consider. Also, Zard Y outspeeds 5/6 mons outside of rain and nothing can come in safely. It can be played around but it's a nuisance. Volcanion, on the rare occasion, is tough as well but the Magearna version checks it better.

I strongly recommend the following nicknames: XXXGrentacion, Lil Uzi Pert, Lil Yachty (Pelipper), Takeoff (Torn), Rick Ross (ferro), Drake (Manaphy).
 
  • Love
Reactions: Ske
Hey awesome team

I have a couple of things for you to consider given the following weaknesses you expressed:
  1. Extreme reliance on ferro to stop Greninja from changing formes. If Greninja attains Ash-form, it can counter-sweep your team.
  2. Trouble breaking Spdef Bulu and to lesser extent AV tang
  3. Speed control is slightly lacking if you lose pelipper
A
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Manaphy @ Waterium Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Psychic
- Knock Off Ice Beam
- Tail Glow

Remove AV from mag, tang, bulu. Hit bulu's, rotom-W, ferro's lefties. Vs stall, knock eviolite and Chansey no longer checks your special breakers. If done in conjunction with the lefties change suggested below, this becomes a much better offensive check to greninja, torn and the like. I suppose you could go for a lure berry, but I don't think that will help the rest of the team much.

B
In the second variant of the team you may consider dropping Z-move on Mana for lefties and changing Magearna from AV to Farium-Z Trick Room.

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Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fire (idk how much you hate curse scizor)

You were very reliant on Chople Ferro to lure mega zam. This just switches in on tons of threats and can outright win games. If it doesn't it pulls in things that are really easy for the rest of the team to deal with. Handles +2 hawlucha, excadrill EQ, torn-T, revenges specs gren, webs, opposing swift swim, etc. even if it dies, then you can get swampert or pelipper back in for a turn or two under TR.

C
And then a more out-there suggestion:

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Whimsicott @ Darkinium Z / Lagging Tail*
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Encore
- Tailwind
- Memento / U-Turn*
*Swap together

Bulky whimsicott is a very nice support mon for rain teams. You prevent opposing setup, beat all non-Steelium Zygarde, can suicide set Tailwind and even have the option of a full restore and momentum capture with priority Z-Memento, bringing back a sweeper or RainBird. If you want U-turn over memento, then go lagging tail for the hilariously slow pivot. I would consider outright replacing ferro with this to make the team play more offensively. This would require SR M-Swamp. Maybe most popularly leveraged in BanDisnDatnMe tailwind offense.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Whimsicott in Rain: 241-284 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 108+ Def Whimsicott: 270-320 (83.3 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Whimsicott: 195-231 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

so TL:DR
First version:

Ice Beam --> Knock Off on Mana
Ferro --> Whimiscott
Swampert --> Stealth Rock

Second version
Waterium Z --> Leftovers on Mana
AV Mag --> TR Mag

These are just for your consideration. Either way, sweet team!
 
Last edited:

Sayuze

CDAI got 22 shots, matter fact he got a mop
is a Tiering Contributor
I have a couple of things for you to consider given the following weaknesses you expressed:
  1. Extreme reliance on ferro to stop Greninja from changing formes. If Greninja attains Ash-form, it can counter-sweep your team.
  1. I would definitely not call this an "extreme reliance". Under rain Swampert can beat it, Z mana can chunk it for ~60-70%, you have your own gren, and of course ferro which has leech for recovery. All this and most times greninja is not coming for free on anything or without taking hazards, wearing it down eventually.

    [*]Trouble breaking Spdef Bulu and to lesser extent AV tang
    ? Bulky Tornadus, Chople + Attack invested gyro ferro and even Ice Punch on pert are definitely enough.

    [*]Speed control is slightly lacking if you lose pelipper
    Greninja and Tornadus outside of rain are adequate enough. Also you should have rain up for the majority of the game if you play well, so this is not an issue.
A
View attachment 136534
Manaphy @ Waterium Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Psychic
- Knock Off Ice Beam
- Tail Glow

Remove AV from mag, tang, bulu. Hit bulu's, rotom-W, ferro's lefties. Vs stall, knock eviolite and Chansey no longer checks your special breakers. If done in conjunction with the lefties change suggested below, this becomes a much better offensive check to greninja, torn and the like. I suppose you could go for a lure berry, but I don't think that will help the rest of the team much.
What does this do though? The whole point of manaphy on rain is to completely tear apart bulkier and fatter teams. It most certainly appreciates any coverage, and like Ske said we tried 2 attack Rest TG but coverage was so important here. So being able to have a roll to kill AV tangrowth (or any bulky grass rather) after rocks at +3 is so important. AV Mag just gets OHKO'd to +3 Z move anyway, chansey dies to TG on switch + z move, etc... Surf/Psychic/Ice Beam + TG is definitely the set here.


B
In the second variant of the team you may consider dropping Z-move on Mana for lefties and changing Magearna from AV to Farium-Z Trick Room.

View attachment 136538
Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fire (idk how much you hate curse scizor)

You were very reliant on Chople Ferro to lure mega zam. This just switches in on tons of threats and can outright win games. If it doesn't it pulls in things that are really easy for the rest of the team to deal with. Handles +2 hawlucha, excadrill EQ, torn-T, revenges specs gren, webs, opposing swift swim, etc. even if it dies, then you can get swampert or pelipper back in for a turn or two under TR.
While on paper, this can seem somewhat considerable, it just goes against the point of build and doesn't have much synergy. Zam can be outplayed by playing aggresively, as it cannot really switch in to anything (including pelliper as it u-turns on you to bring in Pert / Mana / Ferro). Although, it can check Energy Ball Zam which this team can struggle with, I just think Manaphy does a better job here, given the fact that rocks are on ferro and with this change you will be way more stall weak. Z move mana improves the stall / fat matchup by an immense amount and overall, is the superior pick.

C
And then a more out-there suggestion:

View attachment 136533
Whimsicott @ Darkinium Z / Lagging Tail*
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Encore
- Tailwind
- Memento / U-Turn*
*Swap together

Bulky whimsicott is a very nice support mon for rain teams. You prevent opposing setup, beat all non-Steelium Zygarde, can suicide set Tailwind and even have the option of a full restore and momentum capture with priority Z-Memento, bringing back a sweeper or RainBird. If you want U-turn over memento, then go lagging tail for the hilariously slow pivot. I would consider outright replacing ferro with this to make the team play more offensively. This would require SR M-Swamp. Maybe most popularly leveraged in BanDisnDatnMe tailwind offense.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Whimsicott in Rain: 241-284 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 108+ Def Whimsicott: 270-320 (83.3 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Whimsicott: 195-231 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Idk what you would want to replace for whimsicott, but again --what does this do. This set, which is garbage (excuse me and no hate to BanDisnDatnMe), is if anything intended for setup sweepers. There are no setup sweepers on this team, bar Manaphy which again is there to chip big holes in teams in general and doesn't need speed. Tailwind is pointless with swift swim anyway, and this mon would not benefit the team more than any other member.
 
Hi Sayuze

I'm not going to quote your reply because I'm bad at forums, but thanks for the thinking. I played a bunch of games with this team and upon further consideration, I have some updated views on my initial suggestions. I'll dump some replays below.

First off and to get it out of the way: whimsicott doesn't work. It helps in the mirror and vs some stall, but beyond that I don't think it's worth using. I tried using it w/ CM mystic water keldeo, but eh.

Anyway onto the other points:

I ran a bunch of games, mostly with a variant that looked like this:
https://pokepast.es/5b2e9953caf37618
  • Fairium Z Trick room mag over ferro
  • Manaphy with knock off over Ice Beam, for item I tried both lefties and waterium Z, running double Z move
Leftovers on Manaphy
Leftovers on manaphy was very nice vs opposing torn T. It took a lot of pressure off my own torn to check it and I didn't have to make wonky doubles into swampert. What was definitely lacking was breaking power. Unaware clef is able to stall you out. I think Waterium Z is definitely the superior choice and I would recommend double Z. Games where you are reliant on mana clicking +3 Z water rarely need mag.

Knock off on Manaphy
My usual play with mana when I got it in was click knock off if they have an apparent switch-in, then next time you're in just TG. This formula works against everything that isn't bulky bulu. Even in that scenario I found +3 or +6 psychic to put enough of a dent in Bulu that I could sweep with other stuff. I think the times I hit scarfers like latios and kartana outweigh the benefits of bopping bulu on a roll.

TR Magearna over Chople Ferrothorn
I think TR mag is just outright better and you can see all the easy sweep opportunities it gets below. You can set up vs opposing ferro, zam, bulu, all stuff that is otherwise very annoying. I don't think it matters at all that this can't constantly be coming in. If it gets in, you are already at an advantage. The things that stop this are handled by mana and swamp already. The major downside, is that you have to drop either superpower or ice punch on swamp for SR. I do think swamp gets rocks up vs stall wayy more easily than ferro, buttt then you have more trouble with ferro.

Easily biggest threats for me when playing were spdef leech+protect ferro, bulk up bulu with unaware wish support on stall and trick room teams.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-807606677 mag cleans up
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-807611033 and again
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-807634574
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-807578042 knock off mana
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-807573444
 
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Veez,

I respect that you reciprocated my arguments in a fair manner with replays as support but also admitted to some of your faults mentioned previously, but I have to disagree once again. I would like to respond to you personally to address your arguments and hopefully make you understand why they wouldn't be optimal:

I should begin with stating that in my opinion from what you have said, your point of view on the metagame is very specific and clear-cut. I believe one should glance the meta by doing so in a way that you are not focusing on one part of it, but as a whole. What I mean by this is that your arguments to including certain mons/sets are very one-sided and they are expressed in a way that target certain Pokemon but not the in a way so they overall benefit and "shape" the team together.

For example, adding TR Magearna on this team may seem like a good idea because it can hard-check Pokemon such as Alakazam, Lele, etc, but by replacing Ferrothorn you ruin the team archetype's synergy -- really which is one that craves for speed so it's members can dish out huge damage while being as fast as possible. TR does the opposite of what the team is functioned and built to do, also removing Spikes support which heavily complements fast, powerful breakers. Ferrothorn is just so important, not only as a better defensive backbone but as it "is one" with the team and helps it do what it does better.

Moving on to your next suggestion (I will assume I've covered your TR Mag argument), I still think you haven't justified what Knock Off > Ice Beam does. There's no reason why you wouldn't just want to knock out let's say a Tapu Bulu with +3 then Ice Beam than Knock Off + not be able to finish it off. This team can deal with scarfers already by switching into Tornadus / Ferrothorn along with hazards to punish them when they initially switch in. Coverage on Manaphy is very important and it certainly appreciates TG + 3 Attacks the most.
Thanks for the well-reasoned response. On manaphy: against non-stall matchups, I found that opponents would try to check manaphy offensively, sending in something on the anticipated TG, more than they would with a fatmon. Let me try some more games with a 3 attacks set.

I'm not sold on your premise that magearna hurts the team's synergy. I understand ferro does what the team "wants" when it captures momentum -- hazards, accruing chip, and obvious defensive capabilities-- but I don't think magearna detracts from overall playstyle of the rain+breaker archetype. When mag sets TR it will either eliminate a key threat, a la mega zam, or forces the opponent into awkward switches. It is very hard to play around z fleur+ focus blast under TR. You'll also see that in practice it is rare for mag to die before the end of room. Even in the cases it does, you can leverage the speed flip either pelliper, swampert, and water shuriken (and less rarely Mana). Also note that the things killing mag are usually fat fires or grounds, which present a free turn to other members.

Anyway, thanks for feedback. Feel free to message me directly, but I don't want to clutter up this thread anymore.

Edit: wrote this on mobile. It's a mess
 

Ske

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Hello Guys, Its been a minute since i visited this RMT, I came back just to respond & answer some questions :D
Veez i feel Manaphy needs Ice Beam to destroy grass types esp AV Tangrowth as +2 Psychic does not OHKO & Knock isnt really that useful as boosted surfs & a Hydro Vortex get rid of threats you mentioned & AV Tapu Bulu is very rare nowadays, I feel as though i absolutely need Ferrothorn on this team as otherwise this team gets destroyed by Ash Greninja or other Water types. also thanks 4 helping bro :D Sayuze

 
Team is really solid. I feel like protean gren would also fit really nicely. It gives it unpredictability and it can gain a ground typing in case you are having problems with koko or zeraora (both are very threatening to this team. Koko gets great stab and electric terrain. Zeraora has moves like fire punch and grass knot to deal with teams like this.
 

Gross Sweep

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Team is really solid. I feel like protean gren would also fit really nicely. It gives it unpredictability and it can gain a ground typing in case you are having problems with koko or zeraora (both are very threatening to this team. Koko gets great stab and electric terrain. Zeraora has moves like fire punch and grass knot to deal with teams like this.
I'm sure Ske can speak for himself on these comments, but I'm scrolling the forums and saw this comment pop up. Firstly I'd like to note that between the Ferrothorn and M-Swampert, Koko isn't that much of an issue. Zeraora can be a bit more difficult if it's packing Grass Knot, but with rain up it's a non issue to M-Pert and Ash Gren's Shuriken, so it can be revenge killed. Also Zeraora isn't common enough to really get worried about in my opinion, like if you're picking a mon to have an ehh match up against it makes sense to pick one as uncommon as that.

Also just a note on Protean Gren. Unless someone is switching Koko into Gren The Protean Spike is pretty useless, since it Tbolts you before you get to throw up any Spikes. With Koko not being a common hard switch into Greninja, along with many not using a fast U-Turn or Volt Switch (that doesn't just kill the Gren) to get Koko in against Gren where the Koko is still going to be taking a hit makes this useless. The advantages of Ash Gren on a rain team far out weigh the chances of being a ground type against Koko - which are unlikely. Also as discussed earlier the mentioned Electrics aren't even that big of a threat to the team.
 
Okay, these might be some weird suggestions from a weird random haha, but Edge Swamp is a nice Tech, allowing Swamp to offensively Check Gyarados and opposing Pelippers, it also OHKOes rare Zard Ys which shouldnt be switching in but could attempt to check the rain and as such the swampert with its sun and Edge hits even rarer Mantines which are a near complete Roadblock for Rain. That would mean Ferro would have to run Rocks over Spikes and that you have to deal more offensive Pressure with Gren if Rocks are really required. Torn could be changed to AV (the new Slot could be HP Ice/Icy Wind for Rockium Chomp, Gliscor although it is quite checkable under the right circumstances aka, core [for instance, when paired with tspikes pex and tang] and if played well can be annoying and that would give more security against it and would help revenge kill stuff like z/scarf lando, without relying on a hydro or water shuriken hits or Focusblast/Superpower to take down Tyranitar after some chip and innot case of Fblast while not beeing reliable, hitting mega mawile which appears to be the superior option as of now) which helps vs. Mega Venu, another Rain Menace and Opposing Torn-Ts lacking Knock Off. If you want to maintain Defog Pelipper could take that role, since I think Hurricane isnt a necessity, with Knock Ferro as a lure and Toxic for Grasstypes, I think it could even possibly be just Scald, Uturn, Defog and Roost and it would still be fine, especially if one would apply this changes :]
 
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The link to the Koko version is actually the same as the one for Gren, they both go to the Gren paste. Hopefully this gets fixed since I'm interested in the Koko version.
 
Hey I just saw this from the thread about how to counter your team essentially. I was shocked to see this is essentially a very similar team to what I came up with at the start of Sun/Moon after modifying my old ORAS team. Haven't played competitive in quite a while but starting to look back into it for Sword/Shield.

Anyway, take these suggestions with a grain of salt with that context because I don't know exactly how the meta is functioning at the moment to be qualified to talk about what works best but here are some of the differences between my team and yours that maybe you'd want to consider.

If you don't find yourself setting up spikes often I would suggest U-Turn on Greninja. I've always thought the momentum is more worthwhile.

I think Superpower is the best last Swampert move just to break Ferrothorn or Kartana somewhat whenever you want to can open your whole team up.

I don't know what Psychic gives you compared to Ice Beam, way better for something like Tangrowth.

I'm not sure if Knock Off/Toxic is better than Gyro Ball/Leech Seed. I can see merits to both, I liked Gyro Ball/Leech Seed for certain walls so they needed to switch out or to make checks that come in eat a big Gyro Ball before he went down (helps with both Torn-T and Megazam). Also I don't get Figy Berry.

I don't like the Torn-T set, just doesn't seem as good as life orb with Superpower. I would rethink this one, it does depend a lot on how you are playing the team though. If you do end up changing it you could consider changing Knock Off or Roost to Defog (prob Knock Off).

I like Tapu Koko overall better than Ash Greninja (less Torn-T probs) but it depends on how you're playing the team. If you add Koko you could also consider Ash Greninja over Manaphy although I know that's the core of the team. I've gone back and forth between the two.

The things I like about yours over mine are adding Waterium-Z seems promising and I never found a good way of messing with hazards too much. While I don't like some of the choices to put hazards on your offensive mons, I like that they all have them rather than only 2 or something otherwise it really wouldn't work. Like you gotta do all or nothing (well I liked stealth rocks on Ferro but really cuz it needed a last move lol).

I'm wondering how you fair with the threats I don't really know much about (Kartana, Magearna, Celesteela, Toxapex). From what I remember, Kartana was the hardest.
 
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